Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Share
    avatar
    collegeboy16
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1196
    Points : 1219
    Join date : 2012-10-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Roanapur

    Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:47 am

    Iron Dome (Hebrew: כִּפַּת בַּרְזֶל, kipat barzel) is a mobile all-weather air defense system[4] developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems.[3] It is a missile system designed to intercept and destroy short-range rockets and artillery shells fired from distances of 4 to 70 kilometers away and whose trajectory would take them to a populated area.[5][6] The system, created as a defensive countermeasure to the rocket threat against Israel's civilian population on its northern and southern borders, uses technology first employed in Rafael's SPYDER system. Iron Dome was declared operational and initially deployed on 27 March 2011 near Beersheba.[7] On 7 April 2011, the system successfully intercepted a Grad rocket launched from Gaza for the first time.[8] On 10 March 2012, The Jerusalem Post reported that the system shot down 90% of rockets launched from Gaza that would have landed in populated areas.[6] By November 2012, it had intercepted 400+ rockets.[9][10]
    The Iron Dome system is also effective against aircraft up to an altitude of 32,800 ft (10,000 m). [11]
    -wikipedia
    avatar
    Cyberspec
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1936
    Points : 2103
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:18 am

    Seems to be quite effective. Something like a 70% success rate according to info I saw, which is pretty good considering the targets. The only down side is the cost. One ID projectile/missile is estimated to cost (depending on source) between $45000-$62000, while the Fajr rockets cost between $1000-$2000.
    avatar
    collegeboy16
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1196
    Points : 1219
    Join date : 2012-10-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Roanapur

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:34 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Seems to be quite effective. Something like a 70% success rate according to info I saw, which is pretty good considering the targets. The only down side is the cost. One ID projectile/missile is estimated to cost (depending on source) between $45000-$62000, while the Fajr rockets cost between $1000-$2000.
    True, every accurate attacks made with these cheap-o rockets eats about 50 grand of the Israeli budget. Having said that, it would be vulnerable to a counter such as this: if one is to use relatively accurate fireworks(nonlethal and more importantly, cheap!) than entirely live warheads to defeat this system and try to match its number of counters as a battery of these has about 180 interceptors(and that is if they intercept every target) and if you manage to lob rockets very accurately, these 50k interceptors would take out about 50 dollars worth of fireworks Twisted Evil . However the inherent effectiveness of the system may make it a favorite of everyone who has the money and the urgent need for it such as S.Kor and Taiwan.
    avatar
    nemrod
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 818
    Points : 1321
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    US, Israeli missile experts report Iron Dome's success rate as low as zero

    Post  nemrod on Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:09 pm


    It’s very hard to see how it (Iron Dome’s success rate) could be more than 5 or 10 percent.
    MIT physicist Theodore Postol.

    This subject could be linked to this topic
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2365-missile-s-shield-plan-and-us-military-complexe-victime-of-the-reality
    As US provide money, and experts, it is the same technology as Missile's shield.
    This so-called Missile's shield -Iron dome- is as their JSF F-35, or F-22. Supposed to be invicible, but in front of the reality, these hardware become useless. Yes the real is, was, and stay far to be virtual. The hype is there for that, you pay, you pay, you pay.
    If their shields are not effective against the poor, and old fashionned palestinian's craft's rockets, how it could be effective against the russian's state of the art SS-24, SS-25, SS-27 ,SSNX20, SSNX-23, SSNX32, I think this shield -I mean US/Israeli this is the same product- is innefective against MIRV like the old SS-20, SS-17, SS-18, SS-19.
    I doubt if their shield can do something against the old SS-4, SS-5, and SS-11.



    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/03/21/294645/iron-domes-success-as-little-as-zero/


    As American President Barack Obama hailed the ‘resounding success’ of Israel’s US-financed Iron Dome antimissile system on the first of his tour there, missile experts have newly unveiled that Iron Dome’s success rate during the regime’s November war on Gaza was as low as zero.


    While Obama used his Wednesday’s tour of an Iron Dome installation, “celebrating a technological wonder built with the help of American dollars” and seeking to showcase US support of the Zionist regime, there was no mention about the “intensifying debate” on whether the promotion of the system’s success rate was “more illusory than real,” says a The New York Times article on Thursday.

    Contrary to Israeli claims that Iron Dome’s success rate in destroying incoming Palestinian rockets during the regime’s massive military strikes against the blockaded Gaza strip was 90 percent, studies by weapons experts in the US and Israel suggest that the anti-missile system “destroyed no more than 40 percent” of the rockets “and perhaps far fewer,” the report emphasizes.


    Many rockets, they argue, were “merely crippled or deflected” but not destroyed as claimed, allowing intact or dying rockets to fall on populated areas.

    Following the wildly exaggerated claims by the Israeli regime about Iron Dome’s success rate, the US Congress also described the system as “very effective,” pledging an additional USD680 million for deployments through 2015.

    According to the report, Richard Lloyd, a weapons expert who has written a critique of Iron Dome for engineers and weapons designers, and Theodore Postol, a physicist at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) who helped reveal major Patriot antimissile failures in 1991, analyzed new videos on the performance of the Israeli anti-missile system and found that Iron Dome “repeatedly failed to hit its targets head-on.”

    “It’s very hard to see how it could be more than 5 or 10 percent,” the report quotes Dr. Postol as saying.


    Moreover, the daily adds, Mordechai Shefer, an Israeli rocket scientist formerly with Rafael, Iron Dome’s maker, studied about two dozen videos and, in a study published last month, “concluded that the kill rate was zero.”

    Meanwhile, the paper underlines that Iron Dome’s performance is the key to a potential Israeli decision whether to take military action against the Islamic Republic as it has repeatedly threatened, hinging on its estimate of possible retaliatory costs, “including damage inflicted by rockets fired from southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip,” not to mention Iran’s own long-range ballistic missiles.


    Amid the growing anxiety over any Iranian retaliatory strikes on Israel in case of an American or an Israeli attack against the country, as often threatened by officials of both allies as a ploy aimed at pressuring Tehran into abandoning its right to use peaceful nuclear technology, “the Israeli public saw Iron dome’s (reported) early successes” against rocket fire from Gaza “as proof” that it can tolerate retaliatory strikes, the report adds, citing Israeli antimissile program’s founder, Uzi Rubin.

    Following the Gaza cease-fire last year, the report notes, Lloyd began scrutinizing “hundreds of online videos of Iron Dome in action,” looking for “unambiguous signs of success: pairs of fireballs (at night) or smoke clouds (during the day) that formed as speeding fragments blew up a warhead.”

    However, “he found very few,” the daily adds, citing Lloyd.

    Lloyds method of video analysis won scientific backing during the 1991 US-led Persian Gulf war against Iraq, as the American military boasted that its Patriot interceptors, built to protect Israel against potential missile attacks by Iraqi dictator at the time Saddam Hussein, had succeeded 96 percent of the time.

    MIT scientist, however, “analyzed broadcast videos and found only misses,” according to the Time’s report.

    In Israel, meanwhile, Lloyd won support from Reuven Pedatzur, a military analyst and former fighter pilot “long skeptical of his country’s antimissile claims,” who found an Israeli police report saying that 109 rockets launched from Gaza - roughly twice the military’s figure - hit urban areas.

    Pedatzur further discovered “evidence of wide destruction” inflicted by rockets fired by Palestinian Hamas militants.

    A Finance Ministry report registered 3,165 claims of property damage, “including to cars and buildings in cities like Ashdod and Beersheba, both protected by Iron Dome battalions.”
    avatar
    Zivo
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1498
    Points : 1532
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  Zivo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:43 am

    Keep in mind it is press TV. Not that I agree with any Israeli or US sources either.

    This would not be the first time there is a dispute on missile interceptions over Israel. If I recall, even the US and Israel still cannot agree at how effective the Patriot missile really was during the first Gulf War.

    Seems ridiculous to spend $100k on a missile to shoot down a $1 bottle rocket, but I guess it's OK if they're are not writing the checks...
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16013
    Points : 16670
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:42 am

    Seems ridiculous to spend $100k on a missile to shoot down a $1 bottle rocket, but I guess it's OK if they're are not writing the checks...

    No only are they not writing the cheques, they can make a whole industry on the development of those expensive interceptor missiles.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Regular
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2010
    Points : 2015
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  Regular on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:55 am

    so what exactly is wrong with the system? And why it only got out into publicity now. I guess some heads will roll Very Happy
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16013
    Points : 16670
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:10 am

    War = truth is first victim... ask most Americans... indeed most westerners and they will tell you that the Patriot defeated the Scud.

    Anybody who is interested in the subject knows that is not true, but it would be unpatriotic of the US media to dispel such a myth of US military superiority... bad for morale knowing our boys are not safe... imagine that... going to war and not being safe... how warped is that? Twisted Evil


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Regular
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2010
    Points : 2015
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  Regular on Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:War = truth is first victim... ask most Americans... indeed most westerners and they will tell you that the Patriot defeated the Scud.

    Anybody who is interested in the subject knows that is not true, but it would be unpatriotic of the US media to dispel such a myth of US military superiority... bad for morale knowing our boys are not safe... imagine that... going to war and not being safe... how warped is that? Twisted Evil
    I've seen this trend too. But before that they were saying that their equipment is too old and they need more and newer weapons, more soldiers, more bombs, more wmd's.
    Israel on other hand can't let illusions fool them. You don't know what will happen in the future, US is flirting with Islamists, Arab spring didn't make place safer either, Obama supports Palestine. Most likely in the future Israel will have to stand by themselves and deal with all those problems US brought to them
    avatar
    Viktor
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5673
    Points : 6324
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  Viktor on Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:13 pm

    Regular wrote:
    GarryB wrote:War = truth is first victim... ask most Americans... indeed most westerners and they will tell you that the Patriot defeated the Scud.

    Anybody who is interested in the subject knows that is not true, but it would be unpatriotic of the US media to dispel such a myth of US military superiority... bad for morale knowing our boys are not safe... imagine that... going to war and not being safe... how warped is that? Twisted Evil
    I've seen this trend too. But before that they were saying that their equipment is too old and they need more and newer weapons, more soldiers, more bombs, more wmd's.
    Israel on other hand can't let illusions fool them. You don't know what will happen in the future, US is flirting with Islamists, Arab spring didn't make place safer either, Obama supports Palestine. Most likely in the future Israel will have to stand by themselves and deal with all those problems US brought to them

    I don`t think US is flirting with Islamists. I would say that they are always being used for they own goals , in some casses

    they are being brutalized and in some kept in chess with their huge soft and hard power but in all cases all for the benefit of Israel

    itself and never against.




    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16013
    Points : 16670
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:34 am

    Americans have long believed in the very very stupid principle of "the enemy of my main enemy is my friend".

    It got them into bed with Stalin when Hitler was a threat, it got them into bed with the South Vietnamese because the Soviets and Chinese backed the North, and it got them into bed with the Chinese against the Soviets.

    Any rational person would look at the 1990s and say that the west had a much better relationship with communist china than they did with fledgling democratic Russia, and you need to ask why if the west can do business and invest so much into communist china, that the cold war was such a problem? They claim they played a small commie country against a big commie country and defeated the big commie country... but the result is that they now have a powerful democracy that they still don't understand still armed with nukes and not really thinking of them as a friend.

    The obvious alternative strategy would have been to suck up to the Soviets and invest in their country and improve their living standards through the same market economy that China has used to become much more advanced, except Russia was already relatively sophisticated in military production terms compared with China, so you would end up with a modern stable communist country that was a friend rather than an enemy.

    The US has been playing with the bad muslims for some time now and has been burned on several occasions, but it is not learning the lessons. It thinks the bad muslims come from Iran but they come from Saudi Arabia and some from Pakistan... though I think Pakistan is losing interest in the US... it is realising its position will remain only as long as it is useful... which will last as long as US troops are in Afghanistan... which could be a long time.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    nemrod
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 818
    Points : 1321
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  nemrod on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:War = truth is first victim... ask most Americans... indeed most westerners and they will tell you that the Patriot defeated the Scud.

    Anybody who is interested in the subject knows that is not true, but it would be unpatriotic of the US media to dispel such a myth of US military superiority... bad for morale knowing our boys are not safe... imagine that... going to war and not being safe... how warped is that? Twisted Evil

    In fact Garry I can certify that I was one of the first victim of their filty propaganda.
    During the first gulf war, the live, CNN, TF1, A2, BBC, etc....Patriots downed Scud, downed Scud, downed Scud, etc...
    These filty sentences was swalowed by our poor washed brains -I was brain washed by militaries newspaper, and their so stupid TV document legend's wing, in french "les ailes de légende"-.
    They swaggered their tanks are invicibles, their F-16/F-15/F-18 best aircrafts of the worlds, Patriots can downed every Saddam's hardwares, Sam are innefective against the best army of the world. In fact, underlying US weaponnery is better than any soviet hardwares. But....
    After the war, when things were calmed you discovered, after a discret article in bottom of the page, that their filty patriots have never downed any scuds.
    Their tanks could be crippled, if not burned.
    Furthermore an old Mig-25 downed F-18, and a B-52, and missed several times to down F-15 and their F-111.
    An old Sam 6 downed very easily F-16. I don't know what's happenned in iraqi air force, but they could inflict severe damages if they were more motivied. However in that time Saddam was only interrested by power, and avoided any problems with USA.


    After our brain washed had to believe that none countries in the world could match with US hyperpower. In order to corroborate what I mean, fortunetly few years after came Internet, and we -amazed- learned that in fact US army has never easily won any war. In Korea as in Vietnam their best fighters hardly matched with soviet aircrafts.
    Just last episode resumed what is realy US superpower.
    An old Mig 17 -subsonic fighter-, downed 2 F-105 -supersonic figther-.
    It means that without helped from Russia, US Army can never won a war.
    If in 1991 we have no bastards like Gorbatchev, Chevardnaze, Yeltsin, the gulf war's result must be another thing.



    avatar
    Regular
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2010
    Points : 2015
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  Regular on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:44 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    GarryB wrote:War = truth is first victim... ask most Americans... indeed most westerners and they will tell you that the Patriot defeated the Scud.

    Anybody who is interested in the subject knows that is not true, but it would be unpatriotic of the US media to dispel such a myth of US military superiority... bad for morale knowing our boys are not safe... imagine that... going to war and not being safe... how warped is that? Twisted Evil

    In fact Garry I can certify that I was one of the first victim of their filty propaganda.
    During the first gulf war, the live, CNN, TF1, A2, BBC, etc....Patriots downed Scud, downed Scud, downed Scud, etc...
    These filty sentences was swalowed by our poor washed brains -I was brain washed by militaries newspaper, and their so stupid TV document legend's wing, in french "les ailes de légende"-.
    They swaggered their tanks are invicibles, their F-16/F-15/F-18 best aircrafts of the worlds, Patriots can downed every Saddam's hardwares, Sam are innefective against the best army of the world. In fact, underlying US weaponnery is better than any soviet hardwares. But....
    After the war, when things were calmed you discovered, after a discret article in bottom of the page, that their filty patriots have never downed any scuds.
    Their tanks could be crippled, if not burned.
    Furthermore an old Mig-25 downed F-18, and a B-52, and missed several times to down F-15 and their F-111.
    An old Sam 6 downed very easily F-16. I don't know what's happenned in iraqi air force, but they could inflict severe damages if they were more motivied. However in that time Saddam was only interrested by power, and avoided any problems with USA.


    After our brain washed had to believe that none countries in the world could match with US hyperpower. In order to corroborate what I mean, fortunetly few years after came Internet, and we -amazed- learned that in fact US army has never easily won any war. In Korea as in Vietnam their best fighters hardly matched with soviet aircrafts.
    Just last episode resumed what is realy US superpower.
    An old Mig 17 -subsonic fighter-, downed 2 F-105 -supersonic figther-.
    It means that without helped from Russia, US Army can never won a war.
    If in 1991 we have no bastards like Gorbatchev, Chevardnaze, Yeltsin, the gulf war's result must be another thing.



    And it has nothing to do with outdated equipment, monkey models, bad morale and bad training of Iraqi army? Even Iran kicked their asses while being outnumbered. Outcome wasn't surprising. Insurgency was harder than both wars. Don't know what Gorbatchev, Yeltsin and Chevarnadze has to do with it can You tell me more?
    avatar
    nemrod
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 818
    Points : 1321
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  nemrod on Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:02 pm

    Regular wrote:
    And it has nothing to do with outdated equipment, monkey models, bad morale and bad training of Iraqi army? Even Iran kicked their asses while being outnumbered. Outcome wasn't surprising. Insurgency was harder than both wars. Don't know what Gorbatchev, Yeltsin and Chevarnadze has to do with it can You tell me more?

    Everyone can err, me the first.
    I cannot say you that Iraqi army was better armed than US army. But enough to inflict significant blow to US agressors. Nevertheless, as I said the regime Iraq/Syria select their military personel chieftly their army regarding their regime's loyalibility.
    It does not mean iraqians are more stupid or less inteligent than americans. Furthermore, we don't know the true figures of US losses. They must be more significants.

    Back to Gorbatchov, and watching what he did for Russia, the record is low gloss. Soviet Union was superpower when he came at power, after Yelstsin, Russia looked as worst than an under developped country. Fortunetly now she straighten the head, and is back as it was, and as it desserve.
    If Gorbatchov, Chevardnaze, and Yetlsin's administration betrayed Russia, and russian'people, how can we expect from these leaders to defend Russia's interrest in the world. Especially regarding Iraq's war.


    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16013
    Points : 16670
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:14 am

    Even Iran kicked their asses while being outnumbered.

    Iran greatly outnumbered Iraq... not vice versa... and it ended up more a stalemate than anyone kicking anyone anywhere.


    Back to Gorbatchov, and watching what he did for Russia,

    Gorbachev was 1000x more popular in the west than he was at home, and the irony is that gorby made all his changes... perestroika, glasnost, not to destroy the communist party, but to make it stronger... Gorby was never the leader of Russia. he was the last Soviet leader. Most westerners think he was a shining light for democracy... hahaha.

    Communism as practised in the soviet union had the same basic problems of democracy in the west... small group with all the power and money and land and the majority of the population scraping by at different levels. The west probably had a bigger middle class of comfortable people but the gap is only getting bigger now and many children being born wont be able to afford to buy a house in their lifetime.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    nemrod
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 818
    Points : 1321
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  nemrod on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Gorbachev was 1000x more popular in the west than he was at home, and the irony is that gorby made all his changes... perestroika, glasnost, not to destroy the communist party, but to make it stronger... Gorby was never the leader of Russia. he was the last Soviet leader. Most westerners think he was a shining light for democracy... hahaha.

    Communism as practised in the soviet union had the same basic problems of democracy in the west... small group with all the power and money and land and the majority of the population scraping by at different levels. The west probably had a bigger middle class of comfortable people but the gap is only getting bigger now and many children being born wont be able to afford to buy a house in their lifetime.

    As I said previously, and I maintained, without Russia's help, US and its allies could no longer win a war, even against a little country as Iraq. Gorbatchev helped them in Iraq, and the filthy Yeltsin's adminstration helped USA against Serbia.

    No use to see US army's pitiables performances in Korea, and in Vietnam.
    I heard now they are talking to attack Syria, and Iran, just that...hummmm let's laugh, we will enjoy. This time the war won't be virtual, but real.
    Let's them dream, we will see what next joke!
    avatar
    nemrod
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 818
    Points : 1321
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Israel claims : Iron Dome scores 90 percent rocket interception rate

    Post  nemrod on Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:47 pm



    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/10/us-palestinians-israel-irondome-idUSKBN0FF0XA20140710

    As usual in such claims, we can easily debunk this ridiculuous lie. A lie that has many political goals, one among them is to represent this so called success in order to avoid a ground invasion that could severly blow an israeli army in deep crisis.

    http://www.technologyreview.com/news/528916/israeli-rocket-defense-system-is-failing-expert-analysts-say/
    and
    http://listen.sdpb.org/post/rockets-hamas-and-iron-dome-could-use-patching

    This proves again and again that any so called anti-missile'shield protection is a simple dream, selling by lobbies in order to loot the tax payer, especially american tax payer. Untill now a such anti-missile'shield protection merely does not exist, and could not exist.



    avatar
    magnumcromagnon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 4504
    Points : 4685
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    This is a bit off topic but apparently theirs a MIT professor

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:36 pm

    This is a bit off topic but apparently theirs a MIT professor (Theodore A. Postol Professor of Science, Technology, and National Security Policy Massachusetts Institute of Technology) that claims Israel's "Iron Dome" has a missile interception rate which is much lower than their claimed 84%. Professor Postol compares Iron Dome to the Patriot SAM's in interception success rate. I hadn't had the time to read through it however some people who have read through it are saying that he's making the case that Iron Dome's success rate is less than 20%:

    http://www.magenlaoref.org.il/IndicatorsofIronDomePerformanceMarch122013.pdf
    avatar
    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2774
    Points : 2832
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  Mike E on Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:31 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:This is a bit off topic but apparently theirs a MIT professor (Theodore A. Postol Professor of Science, Technology, and National Security Policy Massachusetts Institute of Technology) that claims Israel's "Iron Dome" has a missile interception rate which is much lower than their claimed 84%. Professor Postol compares Iron Dome to the Patriot SAM's in interception success rate. I hadn't had the time to read through it however some people who have read through it are saying that he's making the case that Iron Dome's success rate is less than 20%:

    http://www.magenlaoref.org.il/IndicatorsofIronDomePerformanceMarch122013.pdf

    Well, I think Iron Dome proves itself with the number of Israelis killed (or lack thereof).
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 4504
    Points : 4685
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:19 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:This is a bit off topic but apparently theirs a MIT professor (Theodore A. Postol Professor of Science, Technology, and National Security Policy Massachusetts Institute of Technology) that claims Israel's "Iron Dome" has a missile interception rate which is much lower than their claimed 84%. Professor Postol compares Iron Dome to the Patriot SAM's in interception success rate. I hadn't had the time to read through it however some people who have read through it are saying that he's making the case that Iron Dome's success rate is less than 20%:

    http://www.magenlaoref.org.il/IndicatorsofIronDomePerformanceMarch122013.pdf

    Well, I think Iron Dome proves itself with the number of Israelis killed (or lack thereof).

    Actuall casualties happening vs. actual casualties being  reported is the question. The Israeli's have a long history of covering their tracks or spinning tall tales to make themselves look better. Just some examples of Israeli misinformation:

    1.) In 2007 Israeli's claimed they struck Syria's nuclear reactor and claimed they defeated the Pantsir SAM complex with ease, only for the Russian side to point out that the Pantsir complexes weren't even delivered in the first place.

    2.) The Israeli's claim that they could defeat the S-300 SAM complex easily with advanced jamming tactics, only for Netanyahu to beg Putin not sell them to Syria anyway, if they could defeat the S-300 system so easily then why would they need the leader of their country to beg to prevent them from being delivered?

    3.) The Israeli's claim they can defeat advance Russian weapon systems when they never actually tested against them. They claim their Trophy APS can defeat the advanced RPG-30's (designed to defeat APS) when they never actually tested against them, they also claim their SAM's can defeat the advanced Iskander-M system, when they never actually tested against them either. Hard for me to believe you can actually defeat a system if you never tested against them!

    4.) Israeli's claim Hezbollah and Hamas are their eternal enemies and threats to their national security only to later to admit that: The fall of Saddam Huessin (which the Israeli's supported) saw the rise of Hezbollah in their "golden age" where they can move freely from Lebanon, to Syria, to Iran, through Iraq with little resistance (which would never happen under Saddam), and the IDF also admitted they helped create the Islamist Hamas to fight the Secular PLO:

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847
    avatar
    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2774
    Points : 2832
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  Mike E on Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:50 pm

    I doubt they would lie about their own casualties. (Not to say they have a good history of telling the truth...)

    avatar
    magnumcromagnon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 4504
    Points : 4685
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:47 am

    Mike E wrote:I doubt they would lie about their own casualties. (Not to say they have a good history of telling the truth...)


    Only time will tell when the dust settles.
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16013
    Points : 16670
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:10 pm

    However, I do see its potential when it comes to reducing drag, which is almost invaluable. (Agni III, which is India's longest-range missile with a capability of striking targets 3,500 km away, may now have an extended range of around 5,000 km thanks to a unique solution discovered by Indian scientists at the prestigious Indian Institute of Science (IISc) here.) Those 1500 km are a huge deal.

    What makes me suspicious is that a 3,500km range ballistic missile probably spends some time in space so this drag reducing mechanism would only work during the initial portion of flight as it climbs up out of the atmosphere and then when it comes down... but when it comes down it is essentially falling anyway so reduction in drag would do very little to extend range in that portion of flight.

    Well, I think Iron Dome proves itself with the number of Israelis killed (or lack thereof).

    I think that has more to do with the random nature of the primative nature of the rockets hamas is using and the relatively small warheads, and the comparison of the precision aimed retaliation strikes that seem to invariably hit apartment blocks.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2774
    Points : 2832
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    However, I do see its potential when it comes to reducing drag, which is almost invaluable. (Agni III, which is India's longest-range missile with a capability of striking targets 3,500 km away, may now have an extended range of around 5,000 km thanks to a unique solution discovered by Indian scientists at the prestigious Indian Institute of Science (IISc) here.) Those 1500 km are a huge deal.

    What makes me suspicious is that a 3,500km range ballistic missile probably spends some time in space so this drag reducing mechanism would only work during the initial portion of flight as it climbs up out of the atmosphere and then when it comes down... but when it comes down it is essentially falling anyway so reduction in drag would do very little to extend range in that portion of flight.

    Well, I think Iron Dome proves itself with the number of Israelis killed (or lack thereof).

    I think that has more to do with the random nature of the primative nature of the rockets hamas is using and the relatively small warheads, and the comparison of the precision aimed retaliation strikes that seem to invariably hit apartment blocks.

    Well, I get your point. However, the initial stage of flight (in the atmosphere) is crucial, and the extra speed (as a result of this technology) is needed to extend the range. On the other hand, having this tech on the descent would be almost useless.

    That is true, but there is no denying Iron Dome has done its job successfully.
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16013
    Points : 16670
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:13 pm

    That is true, but there is no denying Iron Dome has done its job successfully.

    With out any data on effectiveness you can't really say that.

    Well you can, but you can also say:

    "That is true, but there is no denying "my home made electronic missile diverter" has done its job successfully."

    I keep it turned on all the time and what it does is send out radio waves that reduce the accuracy of unguided rockets launched from makeshift launchers without proper meteorological data to levels that make them rather ineffective except for the occasional lucky strike.

    i call my home made electronic missile diverter: the Radio Electronic Accuracy Lowering Widget Open to Ridicule by Less eDucated people... or known better by the acronym... REAL WORLD.

    It even works from New Zealand and creates a powerful electronic field of accuracy reduction for all unguided poorly aimed projectiles.

    Smile

    ...I have some questions for our elder statesman GarryB, with a massive modern and sophisticated aerospace network in place and integrated with all domestic SAMS,

    First of all it wont be integrated with all domestic SAMs... The Air Force, Army, Navy, Strategic Rocket Forces and other branches all have their own SAM assets and roles.

    This system will be an attempt to use ground, air and space based sensors to cover the airspace above Russia from ground to beyond orbit... (might include space debris protection eventually). In a few years it will become very powerful and capable, but there will be gaps in sight and reach.

    For example we have the S-400 with 400km range, and the S-500 with 600km range...assuming the range is not downplayed, is it possible within this aerospace defense network within domestic Russian aerospace, that the S-400 can have an enhanced range of 600km, and the S-500 could have an enhanced range of 800km?

    No. AFAIK these ranges are kinematic ranges... in the case of the S-400 to hit targets 400km distant a lofted flight profile is adopted to get that sort of reach... it will be the same for S-500.


    With an IADS it is possible that a missile might be launched at a target but a platform that is closer could take over control of the missile for the final stage of interception... ie an S-400 could be launched at an enemy aircraft 350km distant but an A-100 AWACS aircraft is flying within 200km of the target, so it could provide guidance for the missile while the S-400 battery concentrates on other targets.

    Also isn't it true that S-400's 400km range is the maximum range of having a 95% interception probability after firing 2 missiles, but could the S-400 theoretically intercept targets at significantly greater ranges but at the cost of significantly lower interception percentage (for a theoretical example 95% at 400km, 85% at 600km, 75% at 800km)?

    If it is using a lofted trajectory then it will be at a practical physical limit of range.

    often greater range can be achieved against larger less manouverable targets like AWACS aircraft or B-52 bombers in the case of air to air missiles.
    I
    In this case you can hit a B-52 at greater range because the target will be unable to pull a high g manouver to evade your missile, so a 110km range RVV-SD might be able to hit a B-52 at 130km with the missile using a lofted trajectory and having glided further it will attack theB-52 with less speed and energy but because the target is a B-52 it wont need as much manouvering energy to get a kill.

    And you could guess ,after some long Range ,the radar of any system of defense no matter how good
    it is ,will not see anything that is flying under the radar Horizon . In the picture the radio tower signals will not reach the House ,because is under their horizon.

    Quite true, but with multiple and linked radars on the ground and in the air and indeed in space the coverage of Russia territory will soon become fairly comprehensive.

    With the end of the 1978 ABM treaty OTH radars can now be pointed into Russian territory to look for threats in Russian air space. Even if an S-400 battery can't see the target it can launch missiles at targets using target data from other sources and when the missile gets to within range it can use its own radar to find and destroy the target even if it is flying near the ground.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Sponsored content

    Re: Iron Dome Air Defense System

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed May 24, 2017 1:42 pm