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    India Arms Market Competition

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    Sujoy

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Sujoy on Mon May 06, 2013 11:36 am

    gaurav wrote:Indian goveernement is getting tensed as their is no airfdefence mechanism except for SU-30 which capabilities are still low as compared to other Air forces in Asian region.

    Gaurav , let me correct a few of these misgivings . The SU 30 MKI is by far the most capable and the most advanced 4++ fighter deployed anywhere in the world , not just in Asia . Now while British and US Air Force officers will probably be fired for accepting this , they have more than once accepted this in private . The former chief of the Royal Air Force infact went to great lengths to take a flight in the SU 30MKI .

    gaurav wrote:they know that they only have Israeli Air defence(Barak and Spyder) which can only be considered

    dummy or decoys nothing much in a true air warfare scenario.

    No .The Barak-2 missiles are to equip the three guided missile destroyers of the Project 15A class and Barak 8 is still under development . We do NOT have a three tire air defense system in place yet . Except maybe for V SHORADs which we have in plenty ( though a good percentage needs to be upgraded) . Prithvi BMD can be deployed in Delhi & Mumbai (according to DRDO) at short notice.

    Akash MK1 is already operational and MK2 is currently being tested. DRDO is increasing the range of Akash by using a better composite booster with lengthened booster section


    gaurav wrote:Mirage-2000 Indian air Force is a dummy resource ,it does not have air defence,it has to be escorted by Mig-21 .. Shocked Shocked

    Not true dear . Mirage 2000/5 are escorted by Mig 29s not Mig 21s . That's what interceptors like Mig 29 are for . Just like the US uses the F 15 or F 22 to escort their F 16s and F 18s .


    gaurav wrote:The Indian Air Force (IAF) troupe had to wind up their air defence exercise at a test facility

    here as three trials of the five attempts made to engage aerial targets by a Russian surface-to-air
    missile
    (SAM) failed recently. The exercise was conducted at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) in Chandipur with

    logistical support from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

    Wasn't his waiting to happen . The ex Army Chief had already stated that 97% of India's Air Defense has become obsolete and needs immediate upgradation . Instead of fixing the problem , GOI decided to malign the Army chief and forced him to resign .
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    GarryB

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:34 am

    There is a lot of talk about the US taking over Russian sales to India... when in actual fact it seems more like US sales are at the expense of traditionally European sales to India.

    India can and does buy from whomever they want... they get a bit niggly when Russia sells to China, but seem to ignore when the US sells to Pakistan.

    Talk about delays with carriers when their own from scratch carrier is also delayed through no fault of Russia, or indeed cost over runs when they are getting a fixed wing carrier for 2.4 billion while Mistral class helicopter carriers are costing Russia over 1 billion each without the air component.


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    Sujoy

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:45 pm

    Just to put things in perspective . Not trying to score brownie points .

    Apart from PAK FA the following are the projects between Russia and India :

    (1 ) SSBN's - S 2 ; S 3 ; S 4

    (2) IL-214 MRTA

    (3) BRAHMOS 2

    (4) Indian Aircraft Carrier (IAC) 1

    I am not even including the next tranche of Frigates , SU 30MKI , T 90s or the assembly lines set up in India for MI , Ka helos and Smerch Rocket Launchers .

    I don't want to sound patronizing but I need to know the name of any other country with which the scope and ambit of Russia's defense co-operation is greater than that of India .

    India purchasing weapons from the West is nothing new . Since gaining Independence in 1947 India has generously purchased from the West and this in no way hampered it's purchases from USSR/Russia .
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    GarryB

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:39 am

    Just to put things in perspective . Not trying to score brownie points .
    What I meant about my comment about Russia selling to China is not popular with India but US or western sales to Pakistan or China don't have the same effect is that there is clearly a special relationship between Russia and India and both countries know it.

    Russia will not sell something to China that they think might put India at a serious disadvantage... but at the end of the day they do make their money selling weapons so there will be discomfort.

    To be honest I think Russia selling Su-35s to China would have less impact on India than US sales of AMRAAM to Pakistan.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Sujoy

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:15 am

    GarryB wrote:What I meant about my comment about Russia selling to China
    GarryB . As ever , appreciate your comments .

    However , I was just reflecting on the issue of "India switching sides" that was raised earlier in this thread by another forum member & not on your answer to that same question .

    The point that I was making was that the quantum & quality of defense trade between India & Russia remains the same for the last 40 years and that during this same period India has made purchases from the West , which in no way comes in between Russia India trade.
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    Viktor

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Viktor on Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:32 am

    Sujoy wrote:Just to put things in perspective . Not trying to score brownie points .

    Apart from PAK FA the following are the projects between Russia and India :

    (1 ) SSBN's - S 2 ; S 3 ; S 4  

    (2) IL-214 MRTA

    (3) BRAHMOS 2

    (4) Indian Aircraft Carrier (IAC) 1

    I am not even including the next tranche of Frigates , SU 30MKI , T 90s or the assembly lines set up in India for MI , Ka helos and Smerch Rocket Launchers .

    I don't want to sound patronizing but I need to know the name of any other country with which the scope and ambit of Russia's defense co-operation is greater than that of India .

    India purchasing weapons from the West is nothing new . Since gaining Independence in 1947 India has generously purchased from the West and this in no way hampered it's purchases from USSR/Russia .
    Nice summing up. Most of the people that like to discuss this particular subject are not even aware of the huge projects running up between Russia and India. 

    My vote four you man.
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    Sujoy

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    There is a lot of talk about the US taking over Russian sales to Indi

    Post  Sujoy on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:58 am

    Viktor wrote:Nice summing up. Most of the people that like to discuss this particular subject are not even aware of the huge projects running up between Russia and India. 
    Thanx Viktor . I suspect it's human nature to focus more on Style than Substance .

    Now replace India with Iran or China or Venezuela (or any of these states that have been labelled as international bad boys)all of a sudden these deals would have grabbed eye balls across the world.

    Off the shelf purchases are used as benchmarks of commercial success and therefore JVs take a backseat .
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    SSDD

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  SSDD on Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:21 am

    We are neither leaving Russia nor French, both are our good friends, how ever Soviet Union once supplied us monkey models of their weapon.

    Any way we need to be self-dependent.
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:43 am

    SSDD wrote:We are neither leaving Russia nor French, both are our good friends, how ever Soviet Union once supplied us monkey models of their weapon.
    you get what you pay for really, pay them hard cash and theyll treat you well.
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    Indian Flanker

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Indian Flanker on Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:51 am

    We will never abandon our best friend and protector since decades.russia russia russia russia  Indian and Russia are like brothers, and will always remain so. Even though, now there is a vocal minority in India who spreads the so called Western propoganda of Russian war items as junks and Western items as gold, lol.

    But, we are smart, we know Russia's worth. It is just that, the Indo- Russian is now evolving towards a different level. I think joint-ventures are the way to go, and both countries are exactly doing that.


    So, no worries at all, even thogh US has now become India's largest arms exporter. But Indo-Rus. relationship has now even evolved further Wink 


     russia 
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    TR1

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  TR1 on Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:28 am

    That's Janes being inaccurate. Russia sold far more to India last year than the US did.

    India however did become the biggest destination for US arms, in 2013. Big difference between the two.
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    GarryB

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:42 am

    When US medium transport planes cost half a billion each of course in monetary terms they will be the top exporter.

    Of course most of the time it is US taxpayers money that is loaned to the country in question and they use that loan money to buy over priced US weapons... or the old weapons they want to get rid of.


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    Indian Flanker

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Indian Flanker on Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:23 pm

    TR1 wrote:That's Janes being inaccurate. Russia sold far more to India last year than the US did.

    India however did become the biggest destination for US arms, in 2013. Big difference between the two.
    Oh, thanks for correction. Even I was surprised with the news. Anyway, India and Russia should collaborate more and more.


    What if Mig joins our AMCA programme?
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    Indian Flanker

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Indian Flanker on Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:06 pm

    A very nice article from IDRW

    Though it is not Indo-Russian relationship centric, yet it has few important paragraphs which tell us about the bond of trust:


    A common uninformed allegation is that decades of defence ties with the Soviet Union have not helped “kick-start” our defence industry and that they have the character of a “patron-client” relationship. The contributions of such ties in building our defence industry have been so wide ranging and deep that they need a separate article to deal with them. Here, however, are some major examples: laying the foundation for the industrial capabilities and capacity for in-depth manufacture of fighter aircraft with the MiG-21 models FL, M and Bis from as far back as 1964 and the MiG-27 fighter-bomber from 1974. Taken together, these projects did, indeed, kick-start our defence aircraft industry by: (i) training a huge number of specialist engineers, technicians and skilled workers; (ii) building a large vendor population; and (iii) supplying highly specialised equipment and facilities to HAL to manufacture, test and prove the aircraft. The Soviet ties built our domestic technological and industrial capabilities so wel
    l that our own engineers and technicians were able to upgrade the MiG-27 without any Russian assistance.

    Further, the experience and expertise developed as a result of these defence ties played a major role in enabling HAL, DRDO, IAF and the Aeronautical Development Agency to D&D, engineer, flight test, and manufacture the Tejas LCA.

    The ties also contributed to numerous other major weapon systems, such as the stealth frigates of the Navy and two generations of main battle tanks for the Army – the T-72 of the 1970s and the T-90 of the early 2000s.

    Then there is the major case of the nuclear weapon-tipped ballistic missile firing nuclear submarine,Arihant, and the futuristic Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft now in progress. These are weapon systems no other country was, or is, willing to even discuss with us, let alone undertaking joint technology development as the Russians have.

    The Russians have also provided us enormous technical assistance to overcome our design and engineering problems in successfully launching and targeting the critically important 3,500 km Agni-3 intermediate range, nuclear-tipped, strategic ballistic missile developed by DRDO. These few examples put paid to the allegation that Indo-Soviet/Russian defence ties were, and even now are, those of a “patron” vis-à-vis a “client”. Would a “patron” help a so-called “client” overcome problems in a strategic missile developed by the “client”? Would the US be willing to even consider providing us such help?




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    GarryB

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:11 pm

    What if Mig joins our AMCA programme?

    Would love to see a joint light 5th gen fighter programme between MiG and HAL, but I suspect both have designs that are likely not compatible and have evolved too far for their side to drop and start from scratch.


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    Indian Flanker

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Indian Flanker on Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What if Mig joins our AMCA programme?

    Would love to see a joint light 5th gen fighter programme between MiG and HAL, but I suspect both have designs that are likely not compatible and have evolved too far for their side to drop and start from scratch.
    Don't know about Mig, but our programme is still in its infancy. I think this way or that way, we would once again need the Russian help to complete this project.

    On the hindsight, we have made cryogenic engines of our own, emarked on a moon mission, but still can't design and develop a proper jet engine of our own. Kaveri was a huge disappointment for us. Result is that our Tejas is still underpowered:(
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    GarryB

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:48 am

    Good modern engines are the hardest technology to master in a modern fighter.

    China can't make RD93s either and they are just RD-33s with the gearbox moved...

    The thing with aircraft however is that over their life cycles they tend to gain weight so more powerful engines added later on can revive an otherwise rather average aircraft and make it much more capable... The F-14D is probably the best example of this with the new engines much more reliable and powerful enabling the aircraft to take off without AB. (ie the new engines had the same power in dry thrust as the old ones had in full afterburner.)

    It will take time and money to develop your own powerful and efficient engines, but when you do your aircraft will be transformed....  What a Face 


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Indian Flanker

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Indian Flanker on Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:Good modern engines are the hardest technology to master in a modern fighter.

    China can't make RD93s either and they are just RD-33s with the gearbox moved...

    The thing with aircraft however is that over their life cycles they tend to gain weight so more powerful engines added later on can revive an otherwise rather average aircraft and make it much more capable... The F-14D is probably the best example of this with the new engines much more reliable and powerful enabling the aircraft to take off without AB. (ie the new engines had the same power in dry thrust as the old ones had in full afterburner.)

    It will take time and money to develop your own powerful and efficient engines, but when you do your aircraft will be transformed....  What a Face 
    On that note, hope India-Russia develop the Type-30 engine in time. The PAK-FA/FGFA project won't be complete in the real sense without this engine.
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    GarryB

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:34 am

    On that note, hope India-Russia develop the Type-30 engine in time. The PAK-FA/FGFA project won't be complete in the real sense without this engine.

    Wont be its last engine replacement...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Indian Flanker

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Indian Flanker on Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:55 am

    GarryB wrote:Wont be its last engine replacement...
    So it means they have plans for even more powerful engine in future?
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    GarryB

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:22 am

    Of course.

    New engines and upgrades for engines that have not even entered service yet...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Indian Flanker

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Indian Flanker on Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:00 pm

    WE HAVE NO OTHER FRIEND CLOSER THAN INDIA

    This is 2 years old interview, but still very relevant to this thread:


    Russia’s Ambassador to India, Alexander Kadakin, talks to RIR about bilateral relations, dwells on Russia’s support to India’s global power aspirations and on mutual efforts to scale up bilateral trade.

    Russia has suffered many setbacks in military and technical cooperation. In particular, India chose Boeing in a helicopter tender. Are you concerned that India is increasingly opting for American and other technology?

    First of all, our military and technical cooperation with India, which accounts for 30% of Russia’s total arms exports, is unique. We have been working together for 50 years. India is the only country with which Russia has a long-time programme for military and technical cooperation, and it has recently been extended to 2020. In monetary terms, the amount of contracts signed as part of the previous ten-year programme has reached $30 billion. We expect to supply more than $7 billion of weapons and military equipment to India this year. Furthermore, we not only sell “hardware”, but also technology that no other country is prepared to provide to India at present. Many have promised, but then backpedal once it comes to real action.

    It is clear that with New Delhi’s new course towards diversification of arms suppliers, competition in the Indian market has been rising. Russia is ready for this. We have done a good deal of groundwork in a number of areas, all of which we can offer to our partners. In particular, we are planning to expand our participation in air defence with the Igla-S portable SAM, the Tor-M2E SAM, the Pantsir-S SAM and anti-aircraft artillery system, and other Russian-developed weapons. We are also planning to take part in a tender for the supply of six diesel-electric submarines with the Amur-1650.

    At the present time, some new trends are gaining momentum: the emphasis on bilateral military and technical cooperation has been steadily shifting towards transferring licences for manufacturing Russian armaments in India, conducting research and development locally and setting up joint ventures. A number of very important projects are underway in this sphere, including the development of a fifth-generation jet fighter and a multi-purpose cargo plane; the production of the world’s best BrahMos super-sonic cruise missiles, T-90S tanks and Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets. Military engineers and designers from both countries are conducting joint research and development projects in more than 40 areas.

    Bilateral military and technical cooperation will no doubt be discussed at the Russo-Indian summit. A number of important military contracts are expected to be signed.

    Russia has been entertaining the idea of “returning” to Asia in recent years. Does the Russian leadership have a clear understanding of where India stands among Russia’s foreign policy priorities? What is the plan for India in the context of Russia’s developing relations with China, Pakistan and Asia-Pacific countries?

    Building up multi-faceted cooperation with India has always been and remains a key priority in Russia’s foreign policy. We have no other friend closer than India. This is especially important in this particular period in time, when the centre of global economic growth is rapidly shifting to the Asia-Pacific region. India’s emergence as a nascent global power and a regional power broker with its own foreign policy is becoming increasingly apparent.
    link:here

    These are not mere words, but that's how things are, IMO(from both sides/people's perspective). So, we are not going to abandon Russia at any cost.

    Trust me, majority of Indians, we still hate America and CIA. And the way they have treated Indian Embassy employ, things have become more negative than it always was for US.

    The reason we bought Apache etc, was just that the current prime-minister is pro-US, and hates communists. And our airforce always wanted Rafale right from the earlier decade, especially after M2K's stellar performance in the Kargil War. But anyway, things look good for future. Russia need not to worry.

    Infact in future, if needs arrive, this modern India will fight alongside Russia tactically and strategically in an open manner. We realise the importance of a powerful Russia for us, and vice-versa.
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    GarryB

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:08 am

    The reason we bought Apache etc, was just that the current prime-minister is pro-US, and hates communists.

    So why would he no buy Russian stuff?

    Russia hasn't been communist for almost 2 and a half decades...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Indian Flanker

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:31 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The reason we bought Apache etc, was just that the current prime-minister is pro-US, and hates communists.

    So why would he no buy Russian stuff?

    Russia hasn't been communist for almost 2 and a half decades...
    Actually he does not hate Russia per say. Infact his relationship with Putin is also very good. It's just that he belongs to the "open market" capitalism kind of politics, that hates comministic thoughts. And our government has bought stuff from Russia as well. It's just that they want more US stuff in their arsenal(basically to please US).

    As far as Apache is concerned, well our current government has always been seen as a puppet of US. Our PM has gone out of his way to please America. Hence more stress on diversification of resources and more deals for the US.

    Apart from this Apache is seen as the F-22 amongst attack helicopters, and that impression also helped.

    But as I said, after America mis-treated Devyani and insulted her, things have changed. Now, even the current government is not that pro-US, as it was, say 10 months ago(perhaps they are also migty unhappy over the bullying of America).

    And Indian National Security Advisor" Mr. Shivshankar Menon, publically stating that Russia has got "legitimate interests" in Crimea tells us something about that change. US/NATO surely won't be very happy with this move, as they want to alieniate Russia from the rest of the world.

    India coming out publically in Russia's support is a direct message to US/UK/Aus, that this India is bold enough to bat for its friend and much more Very Happy
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    GarryB

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    Re: India Arms Market Competition

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:02 am

    For India it is a good thing... how would Indians feel about their own government towing the western line direct from Washington just to please those in power...

    I find it hard to believe everyone in the UK likes the way the UK government jumps on cue when Washington says jump... that must get on their nerves and hurt their pride... there was a time when London called the shots and the US was a colony.

    The west might not like Indias stance, but the rest of the free world and even free thinkers inside the Western Empire respect them for having independence of thought and being able to vocalise it publicly.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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