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    India Arms Market Competition

    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf on Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:06 am

    There will never be tech transfer, there will never be full ToT licenses to a nation that is not just viewed as inferior by every standard of superiority complex the west has but also by factual history of enslaving that country and still there are asslickers that absolutley hate people calling them out on their Stockholm syndrome.

    Fact is India is a fucking enemy nation, BRICS, one of those motherfuckers which decided to join an ANTI-DOLLAR=ANTI-USA hegemony and ANTI-IWF bank organisation. Those deals are not some deals, but part of the political game, just like i said it is not about technologies or being friendly with India, it is about playing India versus Russia and China and with that trying to battle BRICS and the crumbling status quo of Dollar hegemoney.
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    Post  gaurav on Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:52 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    , BRICS, one of those motherfuckers which decided to join an ANTI-DOLLAR=ANTI-USA hegemony and ANTI-IWF bank organisation. Those deals are not some deals, but part of the political game,

    Yaah unfortunately yu are correct. India played a big game out of this BRICS. Official statements admit that only reason for Indias participation in BRICS was to gain large scale weapons transfer of S-300V4 /S-400 , orbital engagement and long range surface to surface engagement capabilities at extremely low prices  6 to 8 Billion usd for the Indian air force. This would make the IAF completly invulnerable from threats emanating from China or Pak.

    It is not by chance that recent deal with Ukraine of almost 5 bilion usd to manufactuire AN-148 transport aircrafts in the most politically safe part of country. This is done upon orders from guess yu know that .

    India signs major BRICS Deal. 500 aircraft in 15 years with Russian brother Ukraine.
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    Reliance Defence Ltd said in a statement that the firms would “jointly address various requirements, including 50-80 seat passenger aircraft in their basic configurations and in transport, maritime patrol and other military variants.” The aircraft will be powered by two turbo-fan engines. The medium lift aircraft will be able to operate on short field runways as well as unpaved surfaces. The partnership with Ukraine covers design of the fixed wing military aircraft, which will be configured for use in both tactical and strategic roles. Reliance Defence Ltd said in a statement that there will be a requirement of over 500 such aircraft over the next 15 years.

    Ukraine India aircraft deal at the expense of whom..?

    China threat to India

    India Chinese threat
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    Post  Guest on Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:05 pm

    Werewolf wrote:There will never be tech transfer, there will never be full ToT licenses to a nation that is not just viewed as inferior by every standard of superiority complex the west has but also by factual history of enslaving that country and still there are asslickers that absolutley hate people calling them out on their Stockholm syndrome.

    Fact is India is a fucking enemy nation, BRICS, one of those motherfuckers which decided to join an ANTI-DOLLAR=ANTI-USA hegemony and ANTI-IWF bank organisation. Those deals are not some deals, but part of the political game, just like i said it is not about technologies or being friendly with India, it is about playing India versus Russia and China and with that trying to battle BRICS and the crumbling status quo of Dollar hegemoney.

    Well French claimed how India cant manage ToT in that short 10 year period, even if it was allowed due to Rafale having number of sophisticated devices which for technology base does not exist anywhere in India. And how Indian general poor production quality and standards in aviation industry would do more harm to Dassault and French aircraft industry than good.

    Now, i am just the messenger.
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    Post  Austin on Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:32 am

    Where does India's strategic & defence relationship with Russia stand in a world of two superpowers?

    By Konstantin Makienko

    India's military-political relations and arms trade with the United States have been on a rapid rise in recent years. That begs the question of whether the special relationship between India and Russia in those two areas is now a thing of the past. It appears that the United States has become the No 1 arms supplier to India in terms of the value of new contracts, wresting that position from Russia. ........................................
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto on Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:53 am

    United states has become No 1 temporarily because many India-Russian projects are stuck in limbo for different reasons. If all pending projects are taken up seriously then US will be eclipsed again

    Specially the FGFA, MRTA(this project seems to be over now), S-400, Upgrades for SU30MKI, more MIG29K for new IAC Vikrant, Nuke sub deal, and many more the pending list is endless

    In longer term US is not going to dominate but they will stay as major suppliers because of belligerent china in Indian ocean and SCS
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:58 am

    An Indian order for Il-476s would be a good thing... Smile

    If they do buy them then perhaps the MTA with the same dimensions and engines would make more sense perhaps?
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    Post  Pinto on Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:An Indian order for Il-476s would be a good thing... Smile

    If they do buy them then perhaps the MTA with the same dimensions and engines would make more sense perhaps?

    well yes MTA is very crucial and urgently required so a way out with Russia must be found, IAF as usual is pitching for airbus "Buzz around Defence circle is that Airbus C-295 which will be procured to replace British supplied Avro Transport fleet and also to be produced in India in joint partnership with Airbus and TATA might be fallback plan of IAF which will also eventually replace An-32 fleet in Indian Air Force since C-295 has payload capacity of 9.25 tonnes which is little higher than An-32’s 7.5-tonne capacity but with much lower than payload capacity than Proposed MTA".

    but there seems to be some sabotage or politics or money power at work to derail Indo-Russian defence ties as many deals are stuck on one pretext or the other and the unusual and strange thing is there are no serious efforts being made to iron out differences(
    GarryB
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    India Arms Market Competition - Page 5 Empty . It appears that the United States has become the No 1 arms supplier

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:06 am

    The MTA is supposed to be replacing the An-12 in the 20 ton payload class, the Russians are going for the Il-112V and Il-114 as replacements for An-24, An-26, and An-32... and probably An-72.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:16 pm

    USA also has its own failures in indian weapons market not only Russia

    India Scraps One Billion Dollar Deal of Multirole Helicopters With Sikorsky

    A few days ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to the US, the Indian defense ministry has scrapped a naval multi-role helicopter deal with US firm Sikorsky after failing to reach an agreement on price since 2014.

    NEW DELHI (Sputnik) — The decision was taken after the cost negotiation committee recommended retraction of the tender for 16 multi-role helicopters. The Indian Navy had initiated the procurement of multi-role helicopters for its warships capable of anti-submarine warfare in 2009. Sikorsky's 70B and European NH-90 had cleared the technical trial but NH-90 had faced disqualification for commercial bid due to corruption charges in a defense deal with India, which was linked to NH-90's parent company Finmeccanica.

    "The deal for procuring 16 helicopters for the Navy has been scrapped by the Defense Ministry after it was stuck for over two years on price, and the American firm Sikorsky refused to extend the validity of its commercial bid," Government sources told Mail Today.

    The Indian Navy is in dire need of multi-role helicopter for anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare mission because of its aging Seaking fleet. Due to the immediate requirement, the Indian government was going ahead with Sikorsky despite a single bid tender, which is against India's defense procurement rule.

    With the acquisition of S-70B, Indian Navy was expecting a long overdue modern, battle-proven helicopter for anti-submarine warfare and vertical replenishment. "It may be very nice from an indigenization point but Navy needs helicopters very urgently. Our capability is very much compromised. We don't have helicopters on our ships," Anil Jai Singh, a retired Indian Navy commodore, and defense analyst told Sputnik.

    Initially, Indian Navy had planned a total of 140 naval multi-role helicopter, out of which only 16 was being planned to bought in flyway condition while 124 were to be manufactured in India under country's indigenization boost. It is now considering a fresh tender for 140 helicopters under Make in India program.
    US Marine V-22 Osprey aircraft (R) taxi on the tarmac after the arrival of US President Barack Obama at the international airport in Manila on November 17, 2015, to attend the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) summit

    "We should have got those (16) first and gone ahead with indigenization or whatever strategic partnership could have been made after that. My opinion is that you can't compromise nation's combat capability because of some experiment you want to do with indigenization, Make in India, or strategic partnership. By all means you can go ahead and do that but only after fulfilling the immediate requirement," Anil Jai Singh added.

    Earlier this year, Indian Navy has asked for additional funds to augment anti-submarine warfare capability in the backdrop of increased presence of Chinese naval ships in the Indian Ocean region. "New helicopters should have been inducted in the naval fleet by 2008-09, but they have not arrived yet. The ships, such as INS Chennai, INS Kochi and INS Delhi, are already commissioned, but they are moving without new helicopters. The demand is in excess of 100 and we have a requirement of multi-role helicopters with facilities such as anti-submarine, anti-surface equipment, sonar facility. It is not about when we want it, we have crossed that line. Currently, we are using old Sea King helicopters for some works," Western Naval Command chief Girish Luthra had said.

    India's state-owned HAL is also working on naval multi-role helicopters and is expected to find support from the Narendra Modi government.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201706171054717904-india-sikorsky-deal/
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Wed May 16, 2018 9:54 pm

    Efforts by the Lockheed Martin concern to promote fighter jets to the Indian market

    According to the French bulletin Intelligence online in the publication Lockheed s'engouffre dans la breche cree entre Modi et Poutine, the government of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, which is more distant from Russia than its predecessors, has become the target of an attack by US defense companies.

    Released April 20, 2018 from a mega-project with Russia on the development program for the fifth-generation fighter FGFA, the government of Moody gave many pleasant minutes to Washington. Since 2010, India has been involved in negotiations to finance the development of a new fighter. Now Moscow is developing the aircraft (Su-57 - bmpd) alone and lost its first export customer.

    This statement to the Russian side was made by the Minister of Defense Sanjay Mitra, but most experts attribute this to the powerful national security advisor Azhit Doval.

    India Arms Market Competition - Page 5 5461693_original
    The proposed image of the proposed India fighter Lockheed Martin F-16IN Block 70 (c) f-16.net

    After the cancellation of this project, the American company Lockheed Martin redoubled its efforts to promote the F-35 fighter into the Indian market, while the Americans offered the F-16 fighter to the Indian tender for the purchase of multipurpose fighters (MMRCA).

    In order to initiate a marketing company in the local market, Lockheed Martin in January 2018 attracted Indian Vivek Lalla. Previously, he was president of the Indian holding Reliance Industries, owned by Dhirubhai Ambani - "sworn friend" Anil Ambani, who is a partner of French companies in India. Since the beginning of the year, meetings between the group's emissaries and representatives of the Indian Air Force have increased.

    At the same time, the US defense giant relies on its local partner - the Tata Group, which hired Subrahmaniyama Jaishankar in early May to conduct projects with the government. He is the former ambassador of India to the United States, close to Modi and is a key link in the signing of the Indo-American agreements in the field of peaceful use of atomic energy.

    In addition, Lockheed Martin resorted to the services of a consulting company Cohen Group, which belongs to former US Secretary of State William Cohen. Also working with consulting companies Asia Group (founded by former US Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia and the Pacific Kurt Campbell). In 2017, the company hired former US ambassador to India Richard Vermu.

    Cohen Group and the Asia Group participated in the establishment of the bilateral think-tank Center for American Progress Task Force on US-India Relations with the local think-tank of the India Foundation earlier this year. This structure is headed by Sharia Doval, who is the son of the above mentioned Agit Aval.

    The Russian ally in the FGFA project was Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Moscow suffers from the fact that its influence networks, which had strong positions at the time when the Indian National Congress party was in power, weakened after the Indian People's Party came to power.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3199893.html
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed May 16, 2018 10:50 pm

    Pakistan has f-16 so China and Pakistan know how to counter it. It is also coming to an end, f-35 is made to replace it because China and Russia have 5th generation.

    So India would stop a 5th generation su-57mki and buy a fighter that is already replaced by a 5th generartion fighter because of the russian Su-57 ? And we know that they will receive their f-16, if they buy it, only when 6th generation fighter will enter production.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 16, 2018 11:20 pm

    Lockheed isn't giving up. Guess they don't accept the no means no. India already said no to both F-16 and F-35. So yeah, they aren't interested.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu May 17, 2018 2:32 am

    Thank goodness it is over. One less issue with India.
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    Post  Austin on Sat May 19, 2018 10:14 am

    As India Goes Military Shopping in Russia, US Reminds of Moscow Sanctions

    US officials said the major defence purchase by India from Russia would attract sanctions under the Countering America's Adversaries through Sanction Act (CAATSA), which was signed into law by US President Donald Trump in August 2017 and went into effect in January this year

    Washington: At a time when India plans to purchase five S-400 Triumf air defence systems for around $4.5 billion from Russia, the US on Saturday said its friends and allies should take into consideration the law under which any significant purchase of military equipment from Moscow would attract American sanctions.

    US officials said the major defence purchase by India from Russia would attract sanctions under the Countering America's Adversaries through Sanction Act (CAATSA), which was signed into law by US President Donald Trump in August 2017 and went into effect in January this year.

    Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin will hold an informal summit in the Russian city of Sochi on Monday, and official sources said the possible impact of the US sanctions against Russia under CAATSA on Indo-Russia defence cooperation may also figure during the talks between the two leaders.

    "CAATSA is a feature and we need to take it seriously. The (Trump) administration is always bound by US law. This is a US law. I'm hoping that not just India, but all of the partners that we engage with will understand that we will have to evaluate any potential large defence purchase from Russia seriously because that's what the law demands of us," Tina Kaidanow, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs, told reporters during a conference call on Saturday.

    Kaidanow travels to India next week, during which she will hold talks on defence trade and peacekeeping, which are among two key areas of the rapidly growing US-India partnership as envisioned in the administration's Indo-Pacific strategy.

    Referring to the conversation that the US is having with India and other countries on CAATSA, Kaidanow said the US wants this to be a positive discussion, not framed on the negative.

    "We are going to have to continue to have that conversation with both our Indian counterparts and others about how do we deal with the CAATSA issue. But, I will tell you again, it is US law. We need to take it seriously. Our partners need to take that into consideration as they make their decisions. I can't stress that enough," Kaidanow said.


    When specifically asked if she sees the possibility of US imposing sanctions on India, if it goes ahead with its defence deals with Russia, the senior US official said that everyone should read that legislation carefully and understand its intent.

    "The intent is not to sanction our partners. The intent is to emphasise how important it is that Russia's malign behaviour all over the world is countered and by virtue of purchasing large-scale Russian system, what you're doing is enabling that kind of behaviour. That's the intent of the legislation," she said.


    India is not going to allow its defence engagement with Russia to be dictated by any other country, the sources said earlier this week, adding New Delhi has been lobbying with the Trump administration on the issue.


    Kaidanow sought to clarify that the message was intended not just for India but for all its partners as they contemplate these purchases. She underscored the "positive incentives" to buy American products which are "good" and address relevant security needs besides making their forces interoperable in certain instances. :rotfl:

    "Think about what you're doing when you purchase Russian product. It has a distinctly negative byproduct and that is you are creating an environment in which they are better able to do some of the things that we know are problematic," Kaidanow said.
    Laughing

    She acknowledged the US understands the historic defence relationship between India and Russia.

    "We understand all of that. It's a function of what are we talking about? Are you buying, a single truck; are you buying a large scale system ... these are things we're going to talk about," she said.
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    Post  Austin on Sat May 19, 2018 10:23 am

    New U.S. Sanctions Pose Dilemma for India’s Defense

    “India is now between the devil and the deep blue sea. If India opts to do business with Russia, it loses out on spares and services from the U.S. on equipment already purchased such as the Boeing P-8I maritime patrol aircraft and the Lockheed Martin C-130J,” said a senior MoD official. However, with no “force majeure” clause in those contracts, U.S. defense companies will be considered defaulters according to India’s Defense Procurement Procedure, resulting in heavy fines.

    “This issue brings us back to the issue of trust that took so long to build between the two nations,” said an Indian MoD official. He noted that India has not yet signed two foundational agreements for defense cooperation with the U.S.: the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement, previously known as the Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement, and Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement. The two are necessary for India to access communication security equipment on imports from the U.S. and sharing geospatial information, respectively. “India never fully trusted the U.S.,” the official added.
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto on Sun May 20, 2018 2:00 pm

    US has no business to tell india from whom to by its weapons. Since US is getting many indian orders they must remain contended with it and dont need to poke there dirty nose every where more so when it comes Indo-Russian defence projects
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:39 pm

    Opening of the Hermes family of Israeli UAVs in India

    India Arms Market Competition - Page 5 DuXDhpzVYAI8vb8

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3455974.html
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:40 am

    Anyone heard any progress regarding small arms purchases of Russian weapons by India?

    There was a lot of talk about AK-103, but then they didn't mention whether it was the standard AK-103 in 7.62x39mm calibre or the new upgraded AK-103 in 7.62x51mm calibre.

    Personally... and you know I am biased... but having the AK-103 in both calibres would be useful as they already use both calibres AFAIK.

    Adding an AK-102 in 5.56mm calibre would meet all their small arms assault rifle needs...
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    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:10 am

    According to the Korea Joongang Daily publication in the article “Russia screws up Korea’s arms sales to India,” the Russian government plans to slow down the South Korean contract worth $ 3 trillion won (about $ 2.66 billion) to supply self-propelled anti-aircraft missiles to India. K30 Biho complexes, which were selected by the Indian government in October 2018 following an international tender.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3486776.html
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:55 am

    Looks more like one of those hair brained Indian ideas of not having all their eggs in one basket... they don't want all their air defence systems to be Russian because that would make them dependent, and at serious risk if there was a problem with Russia for any reason.

    Two 30mm european cannon and some MANPADS based on Iglas on a relatively small light vehicle... it looks rather good if they were buying it in the early 1980s, but even in the mid 1980s the Tunguska has vastly better fire power in terms of guns and missiles... even though it is a little heavier.

    If they wanted lighter, I would think SOSNA would be a better option too, but as I said the issue is not really performance, but the origin of the system.

    I noticed Vietnam are not happy with their Spyder SAMs from Israel because they are thermal guided... thermal systems have problems in hot high humidity environments, but also they had serious problems integrating the Israeli systems into their largely Soviet air defence network.

    I rather suspect the Indians will create problems for themselves buying all sorts of different air defence systems.

    If you get a whole lot of shooting incidents around a big city a police force might struggle to deal with all of them efficiently, but if those shootings are a coordinated attempt to take over the city then a police force wont cope...

    An IADS is made up of command and control systems primarily... the actual air defence units with Iglas or Tunguskas can operate on their own but are much more effective as part of a unified system.

    The difference between the German army in 1939 that steamrollered over Europe... all those vaunted western powers like the British and French was the command, the control, and the communications the german army and air force had in place as well as the right tactics. A lot of their equipment was rubbish, but it was suited to the type of warfare they had developed. In comparison the forces they folded up did not have the C3 or the coordination of the German forces.

    Equally over Britain, the RAF was small and certainly no super force, but with warning from radar and coordination they could deploy their smaller force efficiently without having to keep all the planes airborne all the time to meet potential threats and they managed to beat the germans... of course the germans helped by not targeting the airfields or the radar sites... but a C4IR system needed for an IADS means effective and efficient use of available resources without waste.

    For that everything needs to work within the network and to work together with other assets including the Air Force and Navy when needed.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:04 am

    I don't know if they ever want to use the Biho in large scale... considering Rafale, Arjun and Jaitapur I still stick to my theory that India just buy some sort of Western stuff so that the pro-West factions just STFU, and then Russian weaponry still do the main jobs for Indian Armed Forces. dunno dunno

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