Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Share
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1709
    Points : 1704
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:27 am

    Ok, from what i gather this "cancellation" is either, technical problems that could not be resolved (fat chance), a temporary Freeze to allocate more resources to something else, like Sarmat or Nodul or the MoD is actually satisfied with current platforms.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2863
    Points : 2845
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:02 pm

    The system was apparently tested and tested with success. Then they shelved it. I would figure to allocate funds to far more important projects like it's hypersonic weapons system and the heavy ICBM. The roads are actually much harder to track and they cannot track every square inch at very specific points throughout the whole of Russia, compared to following a rail line. I would wager a bet to state that the rail based system would be cheaper in long run than the road mobile system, and just as effective but since it was disbanded then reinstated, it is rather more expensive now than before while platforms for the road based systems are already produced in numbers.

    No one is basing anything off of kindness or fantasies about working with the west KVS, and you know this. You seen the same interviews of Putin that I have. It is purely based upon need vs want. And while they want it, they don't need it over current systems.

    I would wager a bet that Sarmat and Rubhez are both far more important. Same with the Tu-160M2 and the corresponding tactical nukes, than this train.

    My theory? It was a good way to scare US into keeping START treaty. "We can build a mobile missile platform that is hard to find, cheap to make and follows civilian path, and do it rather quickly."
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7376
    Points : 7470
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:27 pm

    '
    Can mods please lock this tread down?

    Train is discontinued, there is nothing here now but BS.
    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2349
    Points : 2506
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:51 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:The system was apparently tested and tested with success. Then they shelved it.

    I think they do that with a lot of what they deem non-priority projects. They do the preparatory work and then either shelv it or continue at a very slow pace....a way to manage the defence money I guess
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 1373
    Points : 1373
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:40 pm

    There r just 4 active railroad tunnels in RF, all in the E. Siberia/Far East, & they r far from each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Railway_tunnels_in_Russia
    Compare that with the PRC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_railway_tunnels_in_China

    More new tunnels in the Urals, S. Siberia (Altai) & N. Caucasus will cost $Bs to construct; it would be cheaper to start using Typhoon SSBN again as a stop gap! Even if 1 locomotive is needed with train weight reduced (I doubt by much!), to pull it, 1-2 more r needed in case 1-2 break down or sabotaged/hit by the enemy. Security, as the article I posted says, is also an issue.
    Also, why declaring it cancelled (all but officially, to be exact) if there's a high chance of it being restarted & losing face in the process when it does happen? Doesn't make sence. Using trains to move S-400/500s instead may be a better idea if they have large areas to defend &/ no good roads there.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18971
    Points : 19527
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:08 am

    It does not need tunnels.

    All it needs is a track siding that goes off to the side of the main track anywhere along its length, where they can dig up the ground and make the train go down into a culvert... much like the open topped aircraft shelters so that hitting one wont damage even the one beside it and when there are hundreds or even thousands you can't hit them all or even a reasonable percentage of them.

    Light camouflage structures could be positioned over top if you want to make them look empty no matter whether there is something inside or not.

    During peace time such sidings could be used to allow trains on a single rail to pass each other...
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 1373
    Points : 1373
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:55 pm

    They can be detected & tracked by air & space based SARs:
    It is also useful in.. military surveillance, which includes strategic policy and tactical assessment. SAR can also be implemented as inverse SAR by observing a moving target over a substantial time with a stationary antenna. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic-aperture_radar#Motivation_and_applications
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacrosse_(satellite)
    Plenty of other entities now use them, with more planned: https://www.unavco.org/instrumentation/geophysical/imaging/sar-satellites/sar-satellites.html

    While in motion, the train's brakes, engines, & lights IR/visual signatures, not to mention radio signals, encrypted or not, can also be picked up. Besides, monitoring cargo trains being assembled at major sorting points may reveal the short BM trains as they r not being broken up into cars before joining with other trains as regular 1s do. And sometimes trains collide/derail with disastrous results. In sum, they learned to count $ better; the risks & costs r too high to field them.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:22 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4626
    Points : 4785
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:09 am

    Maybe we have a real reason Barguzin was postponed until the mid to late 2020's



    Also from Austins post in the economy thread:

    Austin wrote:

    By 2024, the government, according to Medvedev, promises to spend 23 trillion rubles on infrastructure and 12 priority national projects. For comparison, the program of rearmament of the army approved by the president and the purchase of weapons for law enforcement agencies for the years 2018-2027 provides for the expenditure of 22 trillion rubles.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7467p775-russian-economy-general-news-9#242142

    It's been speculated that much of the civil projects will be dual use in nature. Lots of fast rail lines, as will as (hardened) train tunnels, optical fiber networks ran by photonic computers (fast, energy efficient, and extremely resistant to EMP). Fast rail train car with a top speed of 371 km/h, as well as hundreds (perhaps thousands) of km's of hardened tunnels (something they learned from the Chinese) seems like when that's finished Barguzin would likely be taken in to service.
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 1373
    Points : 1373
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:36 am

    They don't need speed, just blend in with regular cargo trains.
    An MX- style underground system with long tunnels will cost too much $ & will still be targeted with a massive strike.
    Better have SLBMs on the sea bottom or on subs.
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4626
    Points : 4785
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:35 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:They don't need speed, just blend in with regular cargo trains.
    An MX- style underground system with long tunnels will cost too much $ & will still be targeted with a massive strike.
    Better have SLBMs on the sea bottom or on subs.

    lol1 You do realize how preposterous this statement is right? You cant blow your wad firing all your warheads on not knowing where something is there or not. Weren't you actually paying attention to the post? This is "dual use", meaning the civil economy is going to benefit from the rail and tunnels, and money spent building tunnels will be money saved from fixing weather caused chemical and mechanical corrosion on those rail lines, (the tunnels could also double as emergency shelters). The rail lines will also be collecting transit toll fee's for potentially tens of trillions of dollars (over a span of a few decades) worth of train freight from large economies like EU, China, India, South Korea, India, Japan (via the Sakhalin and Kuril Islands) as well as the rest of Eurasia, largely mitigating the cost of the original expenditure. You talk about cost and spending money, but you really didn't put any real thought in your post.
    avatar
    Hole

    Posts : 1330
    Points : 1330
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 42
    Location : Merkelland

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Hole on Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:58 am

    Railcars are much cheaper than subs. No need to hide them in tunnels. There are not enough warheads to hit every train station and side track in Siberia or the high North. They could also use false (empty) railcars to trick the enemy. The west would waste quite a few missiles and warheads and achieve nothing.

    And Russia already has subs with SLBM´s. And soon propably missiles on the ocean floor.
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 1373
    Points : 1373
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:34 pm

    Mixing BM trains in tunnels with civilian trains? Their entrances can be bombed burying every1 inside. Also long tunnels will need to have silos for the BMs to launch. Spending $ on hauling decoy trains & occupy tracks needed for other military/civilian traffic?
    They stopped reviving them for a reason.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18971
    Points : 19527
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:05 am

    What is your fixation with tunnels?

    A rail system for nukes does not need tunnels to be safe... just like the road system for TOPOL did not need tunnels to be effective.

    You seem to have a very high opinion of the effectiveness of nukes... these train based missiles are not submarines and they are not bomber aircraft... if the US launches an attack on Russia or for what ever reason Russia decides to use its nuclear weapons those trains can simply stop at the nearest siding... raise all their missiles and launch all their missiles within 3-5 minutes... even if the US had a spy onboard the fucking train telling the Pentagon exactly where the train was and the time it actually launched its missiles that information would be useless because the US has nothing and will have nothing that could do anything about it.

    Even global strike would be useless.

    The simple matter of fact even if you take a 20km stretch of track anywhere along these thousands of kms of rail line a missile train could park up on a siding that is parallel to the main track... it could go out 50m from the main track and fully parallel to that line and they could dig it out so it descends down 5 metres so it goes down below ground level. That means that if a US warhead hits within 200m it will be destroyed.... but if it misses by 1km the blast wave will go completely over top and not effect the train itself... it could still raise its missiles and launch them.

    Now think about 5,000km of track with thousands of these sidings... which are useful for trains that need to stop for whatever reason but you don't want blocking the line... you would have to aim a warhead at every single siding because in the event of a nuclear war all of the trains are going to use these sidings for protection and cover... blowing up sections of track to stop trains passing is not enough because they could launch from anywhere.

    Most tunnels have ventilation systems so people trapped inside will be fine... special sidings inside to allow passing or stops and alternative exits would mean anyone inside could easily get out... it would be a sensible precaution for normal train traffic in case of a land slip or terrorist attack.

    The MX system was not a functioning rail system... it was a military system that was just a ring rail network that didn't do anything... Russia would not have even fired upon it because by the time Russian missiles got there the missiles would have been launched anyway... much more sense to hit US cities and population centres...

    BTW I hope they choose the Chinese to develop high speed trains with... more experience and much more sanctions proof...

    And nuclear powered trains... whoo hoo....  Shocked
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 1373
    Points : 1373
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:40 am

    I heard from a man whose son served in the Soviet Army that there was MX-type system in the steppes of Kazakhstan.
    But as a 2014 RAND study pointed out, rail and truck launchers have their drawbacks. Maintaining a missile on a train is more difficult than in a silo, while rail lines and roads can be blocked by snow, which tends to restrict railroad ICBMs to warmer climates. In addition, because there are only a limited number of rail lines and highways in an area, enemy surveillance can focus on a few areas. And, once located, mobile missiles are more vulnerable than ICBMs in hardened silos.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_car#Mobile_missile_systems
    Now, how these BM trains r better than the road mobile TELs which can spend weeks in the taiga/tundra & also launch BMs from their garages through openings in the roof? https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russias-fast-and-illusive-topol-m-ballistic-missile-is-1618672889
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsL2RPZkCFg

    Besides, they could be loaded on trains, camouflaged as something else & taken 100s of miles from base in a matter of hours.
    http://eng.rzd.ru/dbmm/images/5/121/73640
    http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/03/russian-ballistic-missile-carriers.html

    But there's even a better alternative: https://zen.yandex.ru/media/alternateweapons/suhogruz-s-ballisticheskimi-raketami-esce-opasnee-chem-iadernyi-poezd-proekt-skorpion-5ba77c0f25dbcd00aaf7cd04


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)

    Sponsored content

    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:23 pm