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    BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

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    AlfaT8
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:27 am

    Ok, from what i gather this "cancellation" is either, technical problems that could not be resolved (fat chance), a temporary Freeze to allocate more resources to something else, like Sarmat or Nodul or the MoD is actually satisfied with current platforms.
    miketheterrible
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:02 pm

    The system was apparently tested and tested with success. Then they shelved it. I would figure to allocate funds to far more important projects like it's hypersonic weapons system and the heavy ICBM. The roads are actually much harder to track and they cannot track every square inch at very specific points throughout the whole of Russia, compared to following a rail line. I would wager a bet to state that the rail based system would be cheaper in long run than the road mobile system, and just as effective but since it was disbanded then reinstated, it is rather more expensive now than before while platforms for the road based systems are already produced in numbers.

    No one is basing anything off of kindness or fantasies about working with the west KVS, and you know this. You seen the same interviews of Putin that I have. It is purely based upon need vs want. And while they want it, they don't need it over current systems.

    I would wager a bet that Sarmat and Rubhez are both far more important. Same with the Tu-160M2 and the corresponding tactical nukes, than this train.

    My theory? It was a good way to scare US into keeping START treaty. "We can build a mobile missile platform that is hard to find, cheap to make and follows civilian path, and do it rather quickly."
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:27 pm

    '
    Can mods please lock this tread down?

    Train is discontinued, there is nothing here now but BS.
    Cyberspec
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:51 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:The system was apparently tested and tested with success. Then they shelved it.

    I think they do that with a lot of what they deem non-priority projects. They do the preparatory work and then either shelv it or continue at a very slow pace....a way to manage the defence money I guess
    Tsavo Lion
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:40 pm

    There r just 4 active railroad tunnels in RF, all in the E. Siberia/Far East, & they r far from each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Railway_tunnels_in_Russia
    Compare that with the PRC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_railway_tunnels_in_China

    More new tunnels in the Urals, S. Siberia (Altai) & N. Caucasus will cost $Bs to construct; it would be cheaper to start using Typhoon SSBN again as a stop gap! Even if 1 locomotive is needed with train weight reduced (I doubt by much!), to pull it, 1-2 more r needed in case 1-2 break down or sabotaged/hit by the enemy. Security, as the article I posted says, is also an issue.
    Also, why declaring it cancelled (all but officially, to be exact) if there's a high chance of it being restarted & losing face in the process when it does happen? Doesn't make sence. Using trains to move S-400/500s instead may be a better idea if they have large areas to defend &/ no good roads there.
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:08 am

    It does not need tunnels.

    All it needs is a track siding that goes off to the side of the main track anywhere along its length, where they can dig up the ground and make the train go down into a culvert... much like the open topped aircraft shelters so that hitting one wont damage even the one beside it and when there are hundreds or even thousands you can't hit them all or even a reasonable percentage of them.

    Light camouflage structures could be positioned over top if you want to make them look empty no matter whether there is something inside or not.

    During peace time such sidings could be used to allow trains on a single rail to pass each other...
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:55 pm

    They can be detected & tracked by air & space based SARs:
    It is also useful in.. military surveillance, which includes strategic policy and tactical assessment. SAR can also be implemented as inverse SAR by observing a moving target over a substantial time with a stationary antenna. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic-aperture_radar#Motivation_and_applications
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacrosse_(satellite)
    Plenty of other entities now use them, with more planned: https://www.unavco.org/instrumentation/geophysical/imaging/sar-satellites/sar-satellites.html

    While in motion, the train's brakes, engines, & lights IR/visual signatures, not to mention radio signals, encrypted or not, can also be picked up. Besides, monitoring cargo trains being assembled at major sorting points may reveal the short BM trains as they r not being broken up into cars before joining with other trains as regular 1s do. And sometimes trains collide/derail with disastrous results. In sum, they learned to count $ better; the risks & costs r too high to field them.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:22 am; edited 1 time in total
    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:09 am

    Maybe we have a real reason Barguzin was postponed until the mid to late 2020's



    Also from Austins post in the economy thread:

    Austin wrote:

    By 2024, the government, according to Medvedev, promises to spend 23 trillion rubles on infrastructure and 12 priority national projects. For comparison, the program of rearmament of the army approved by the president and the purchase of weapons for law enforcement agencies for the years 2018-2027 provides for the expenditure of 22 trillion rubles.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7467p775-russian-economy-general-news-9#242142

    It's been speculated that much of the civil projects will be dual use in nature. Lots of fast rail lines, as will as (hardened) train tunnels, optical fiber networks ran by photonic computers (fast, energy efficient, and extremely resistant to EMP). Fast rail train car with a top speed of 371 km/h, as well as hundreds (perhaps thousands) of km's of hardened tunnels (something they learned from the Chinese) seems like when that's finished Barguzin would likely be taken in to service.
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:36 am

    They don't need speed, just blend in with regular cargo trains.
    An MX- style underground system with long tunnels will cost too much $ & will still be targeted with a massive strike.
    Better have SLBMs on the sea bottom or on subs.
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:35 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:They don't need speed, just blend in with regular cargo trains.
    An MX- style underground system with long tunnels will cost too much $ & will still be targeted with a massive strike.
    Better have SLBMs on the sea bottom or on subs.

    lol1 You do realize how preposterous this statement is right? You cant blow your wad firing all your warheads on not knowing where something is there or not. Weren't you actually paying attention to the post? This is "dual use", meaning the civil economy is going to benefit from the rail and tunnels, and money spent building tunnels will be money saved from fixing weather caused chemical and mechanical corrosion on those rail lines, (the tunnels could also double as emergency shelters). The rail lines will also be collecting transit toll fee's for potentially tens of trillions of dollars (over a span of a few decades) worth of train freight from large economies like EU, China, India, South Korea, India, Japan (via the Sakhalin and Kuril Islands) as well as the rest of Eurasia, largely mitigating the cost of the original expenditure. You talk about cost and spending money, but you really didn't put any real thought in your post.
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Hole on Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:58 am

    Railcars are much cheaper than subs. No need to hide them in tunnels. There are not enough warheads to hit every train station and side track in Siberia or the high North. They could also use false (empty) railcars to trick the enemy. The west would waste quite a few missiles and warheads and achieve nothing.

    And Russia already has subs with SLBM´s. And soon propably missiles on the ocean floor.
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:34 pm

    Mixing BM trains in tunnels with civilian trains? Their entrances can be bombed burying every1 inside. Also long tunnels will need to have silos for the BMs to launch. Spending $ on hauling decoy trains & occupy tracks needed for other military/civilian traffic?
    They stopped reviving them for a reason.
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:05 am

    What is your fixation with tunnels?

    A rail system for nukes does not need tunnels to be safe... just like the road system for TOPOL did not need tunnels to be effective.

    You seem to have a very high opinion of the effectiveness of nukes... these train based missiles are not submarines and they are not bomber aircraft... if the US launches an attack on Russia or for what ever reason Russia decides to use its nuclear weapons those trains can simply stop at the nearest siding... raise all their missiles and launch all their missiles within 3-5 minutes... even if the US had a spy onboard the fucking train telling the Pentagon exactly where the train was and the time it actually launched its missiles that information would be useless because the US has nothing and will have nothing that could do anything about it.

    Even global strike would be useless.

    The simple matter of fact even if you take a 20km stretch of track anywhere along these thousands of kms of rail line a missile train could park up on a siding that is parallel to the main track... it could go out 50m from the main track and fully parallel to that line and they could dig it out so it descends down 5 metres so it goes down below ground level. That means that if a US warhead hits within 200m it will be destroyed.... but if it misses by 1km the blast wave will go completely over top and not effect the train itself... it could still raise its missiles and launch them.

    Now think about 5,000km of track with thousands of these sidings... which are useful for trains that need to stop for whatever reason but you don't want blocking the line... you would have to aim a warhead at every single siding because in the event of a nuclear war all of the trains are going to use these sidings for protection and cover... blowing up sections of track to stop trains passing is not enough because they could launch from anywhere.

    Most tunnels have ventilation systems so people trapped inside will be fine... special sidings inside to allow passing or stops and alternative exits would mean anyone inside could easily get out... it would be a sensible precaution for normal train traffic in case of a land slip or terrorist attack.

    The MX system was not a functioning rail system... it was a military system that was just a ring rail network that didn't do anything... Russia would not have even fired upon it because by the time Russian missiles got there the missiles would have been launched anyway... much more sense to hit US cities and population centres...

    BTW I hope they choose the Chinese to develop high speed trains with... more experience and much more sanctions proof...

    And nuclear powered trains... whoo hoo....  Shocked
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:40 am

    I heard from a man whose son served in the Soviet Army that there was MX-type system in the steppes of Kazakhstan.
    But as a 2014 RAND study pointed out, rail and truck launchers have their drawbacks. Maintaining a missile on a train is more difficult than in a silo, while rail lines and roads can be blocked by snow, which tends to restrict railroad ICBMs to warmer climates. In addition, because there are only a limited number of rail lines and highways in an area, enemy surveillance can focus on a few areas. And, once located, mobile missiles are more vulnerable than ICBMs in hardened silos.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_car#Mobile_missile_systems
    Now, how these BM trains r better than the road mobile TELs which can spend weeks in the taiga/tundra & also launch BMs from their garages through openings in the roof? https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russias-fast-and-illusive-topol-m-ballistic-missile-is-1618672889
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsL2RPZkCFg

    Besides, they could be loaded on trains, camouflaged as something else & taken 100s of miles from base in a matter of hours.
    http://eng.rzd.ru/dbmm/images/5/121/73640
    http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/03/russian-ballistic-missile-carriers.html

    But there's even a better alternative: https://zen.yandex.ru/media/alternateweapons/suhogruz-s-ballisticheskimi-raketami-esce-opasnee-chem-iadernyi-poezd-proekt-skorpion-5ba77c0f25dbcd00aaf7cd04


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:18 am

    Position BZHRK "Barguzin" in Plesetsk


    Probably found the location of the throwing tests BZHRK "Barguzin". It is curious that it is located on the same former site of the Cyclone LV in Plesetsk as the launch positions previously identified as the positions of the Nudol complex. The coordinates of the site: N 62 ° 54.448 ′ E 40 ° 47.115 ′.

    The creation of the site, tentatively, began in early 2016 and ended in autumn 2017, which does not contradict the information that appeared earlier in a number of media. Let me remind you that anonymous sources in the military-industrial complex confirmed the information that at the proving ground in Plesetsk in November 2016 passed throwing tests as part of the Barguzin BZHRK program. According to the TASS publication, the Barguzin military nuclear weapons brigade is excluded from the state armaments program until 2027. The development work on the development of the BZHRK is currently suspended or completed, so no further tests are performed on the site.

    Snapshot dated May 2018. There are two cars of similar dimensions in position, the car cover on the left track is open:



    Pictures from September 2018, taken from slightly different angles, but almost simultaneously. There is only one car in the left track position, the cap is still open:



    https://e-maksimov.livejournal.com/86757.html
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:19 am

    But as a 2014 RAND study pointed out, rail and truck launchers have their drawbacks. Maintaining a missile on a train is more difficult than in a silo, while rail lines and roads can be blocked by snow, which tends to restrict railroad ICBMs to warmer climates.

    They will be confusing Russian systems with US ones... Russian railways need to be kept operational because they are being continuously used.... in fact fitting a jet engine from an aircraft on the nose of the front of the train to blow away debris or snow and ice is not the most impossible thing to do.

    Equally they could fit a few extra carriages with S-350 and S-500 missiles on board so the train can defend itself from missile attack.

    In addition, because there are only a limited number of rail lines and highways in an area, enemy surveillance can focus on a few areas. And, once located, mobile missiles are more vulnerable than ICBMs in hardened silos.

    There are even fewer Submarines and fewer still Silo bases... the point is that the enemy can watch all it wants... the key is to make all the trains look similar enough that they don't know at any one time which is equipped with nuclear missiles and which not.

    You see WWIII is different for the US than for the Russians... the Russians really don't give a shit about hitting US silos. The vast majority of Russian missiles will hit US major population centres... they want to kill Americans basically... because they know that if they can do that then the American people wont want a nuclear war because there would be no way for them to win.

    For the US military they want a first strike capability that will take out enough of the enemies nuclear capability so that any retaliation will be limited so their ABM system can reduce it to something acceptable.

    The problem with the US method is that whether they achieved it or not... if they think they have achieved it then the risk of a real nuclear war gets close to 100% because they might think they will never get another chance like this again.

    The advantage of the Russian method is that they wont try.

    So the US talks about smart weapons and surgical strikes and superiority in space and at sea etc etc, while Russia explores revenge systems that can continue to damage the US even after WWIII has finished and the survivors are crawling out of the smoking ruins cursing their political leadership for letting it get to this...

    Of course the US is dead set of dropping the INF treaty and the new start treaty is likely dead too so Russia needs to look at different ways of rapidly expanding its nuclear arsenal and rapidly deploying these weapons so they are not centralised and easy targets. Being able to run 300km in one hour means dispersal speed will be much better for trains that for anything except aircraft deployed weapons.

    Now, how these BM trains r better than the road mobile TELs which can spend weeks in the taiga/tundra & also launch BMs from their garages through openings in the roof?

    Because the roads in the Taiga and Tundra are either normal or nuclear roads... turns and corners on a road can be wide or narrow... for a 16 wheel truck they can only be wide... so follow all the wide angle corner roads in the middle of nowhere and you can usually get an idea of where the ICBM trucks are.

    Rail means the vehicles can move much faster and much further.

    They might build 500 sidings that can be used by other trains to pass or to rest or to let tourists out to see the terrain they are passing through... half of those sidings could be military only... that means 250 nuke warheads alone needed to ensure all the sidings are hit... but even then that does not guarantee anything... what if they are on the rail when the warheads hit but miles away... they could be 300km away from where they were spotted an hour ago and even if they are not moving... it would probably only take them 5 minutes to launch their missiles anyway...

    Hitting empty trains is a waste of nukes.

    They are spending lots of money developing the Arctic... a lot of their northern ports are reporting a huge increase in operations... putting in rail lines to these places and expanding the rail system would be good for the region and greatly increase the number of areas they could operate ICBM trains... and soon now IRBM trains of course... thanks to Trump...
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:07 am

    New game called Metro Exodus... it is set in 2036 in the future after a nuclear war... you play a Russian in a group that travel across Russia on a train looking for survivors and allies and fighting monsters and fanatics... have seen different trailers and it seems as you recruit more people and travel further the train gets longer as you add bits... looks like fun...



    Last edited by GarryB on Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:09 am; edited 1 time in total
    Tsavo Lion
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:20 am

    Being able to run 300km in one hour
    They won't be that fast, as those roads r not yet for high speed trains & for safety reasons even if they were. Besides, freight trains r not high speed trains- they don't carry passengers; moving at such speed will draw attention from space.
    These BM trains have more drawbacks than advantages, so IMO they r as a backup in case other systems become inactive.
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:47 am

    They don't need to be that fast... they just need to get the signal to fire and to launch their weapons within about 4 minutes of getting the order and that is good enough to do the job... they don't need to survive WWIII... they just need to get the signal and launch when ordered to...
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:58 am

    They'll need to survive sabotage, enemy SF, derailments, accidents, & other dangers on/off the road. To reduce all those, if they r inducted, they could start moving them around during heightened tensions; the rest of time keeping them parked in tunnels &/ well camouflaged shelters would be enough.
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Arrow on Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:22 am

    Barguzin is canceled.
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:37 am

    They'll need to survive sabotage, enemy SF, derailments, accidents, & other dangers on/off the road. To reduce all those, if they r inducted, they could start moving them around during heightened tensions; the rest of time keeping them parked in tunnels &/ well camouflaged shelters would be enough.

    It is a rail system... connect all their military bases by rail... even relatively small ones and move the missile trains between the bases regularly... and also move material and men via trains that look exactly the same... add carriages with troops to protect the trains.

    With the end of the INF treaty they could put IRBMs on there too... they could add enormous numbers of missiles per train.

    In fact they could add secret military carriages to all trains... they could all be empty most of the time, while during periods of heightened tensions they could be be used to transfer troops or ammo or whatever.

    In fact they could be used to track down and eliminate SF teams...

    Barguzin is canceled.

    No it isn't.
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Hole on Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:24 am

    Procurement of the Barguzin was postponed to pump more money into the Sarmat. After Sarmat is put into the service Barguzin will be back. Cool
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:49 pm

    It is a rail system... connect all their military bases by rail... even relatively small ones and move the missile trains between the bases regularly..
    That will cost too much $; cheaper to use ice-breaking tugs to tow missile barges up & down the wide Volga, Ob' & Yenisei rivers. This will also extend navigation for commercial shipping following them in winter months, benefiting the economy.
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/where-does-the-volga-river-flow.html
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/where-does-the-ob-river-flow.html
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/where-does-the-yenisei-river-flow.html
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    Re: BZhRK "Barguzin" railway ICBM

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:19 pm

    I like that idea.

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