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    Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

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    sheytanelkebir
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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:51 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Q:

    Why are there so many ex-Saddam officers in IS? Does the world offer too few ideologies that out of all possibilities they choose Jihadi Islamism? Couldn't they choose liberal democracy or even communism instead?

    This question is interesting.

    It all started in 1991 just after the Gulf War Saddam recoiled from the double whammy of the "arab world" fighting against Iraq in the Gulf War as well as the Southern Iraqi Shia uprising against his regime...

    His solution?

    Abandon "Pan Arabism" - since the arabs betrayed him
    Abandon "Iraqi Nationalism" - Since the Shias betrayed him

    The only thing left was "Sunni Islam".

    Hence the birth of the "Faith Campaign" which raged throughout the 1990s until 2003.

    Initially people thought it was a "superficial" campaign by Saddam... build mosques, add "allah akbar" to the flag, ban Bars (but not alcohol!) and impose death sentence on prostitution...

    But it seems that whether it was planned, or by accident... a great number of Saddam's officers were drawn into this islamism... and after the fall of the regime in 2003 it was an easy "leap of faith" for them to get into wahhabism... Something that would have been "unthinkable" in the 1970s or 1980s.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:58 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Q:

    Why are there so many ex-Saddam officers in IS? Does the world offer too few ideologies that out of all possibilities they choose Jihadi Islamism? Couldn't they choose liberal democracy or even communism instead?

    This question is interesting.

    It all started in 1991 just after the Gulf War Saddam recoiled from the double whammy of the "arab world" fighting against Iraq in the Gulf War as well as the Southern Iraqi Shia uprising against his regime...

    His solution?

    Abandon "Pan Arabism" - since the arabs betrayed him
    Abandon "Iraqi Nationalism" - Since the Shias betrayed him

    The only thing left was "Sunni Islam".

    Hence the birth of the "Faith Campaign" which raged throughout the 1990s until 2003.

    Initially people thought it was a "superficial" campaign by Saddam... build mosques, add "allah akbar" to the flag, ban Bars (but not alcohol!) and impose death sentence on prostitution...

    But it seems that whether it was planned, or by accident... a great number of Saddam's officers were drawn into this islamism... and after the fall of the regime in 2003 it was an easy "leap of faith" for them to get into wahhabism... Something that would have been "unthinkable" in the 1970s or 1980s.

    do u think that the country is going to be partitioned?


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    sheytanelkebir
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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:20 pm

    George1 wrote:

    do u think that the country is going to be partitioned?

    There will be one of 4 possible scenarios.

    1- Iraq somehow stays as one country... possible but unlikely in the long run.

    2- Iraq with allies manages to destroy ISIS and retakes the territory... all the "ISIS" citizens would escape to Turkey as refugees essentially reducing Iraq's Sunni minority to a tiny figure... Then the former "sunni" areas would be split between the "shia" and "kurdish" states... a "2 state solution" - Would be fought tooth and nail by Turkey and the Gulf Arabs.

    3- It is possible that ISIS is defeated and afterwards Iraq with Russia create a new "christian / yazidi / shia turkmen" state out of parts of Mosul and Kirkuk. That would create a "3 state" solution in which the Christians and Yazidis would finally have a "safe state" to rebuild their lives. - This would be fought tooth and nail by the Kurds and Sunni states however.

    4- ISIS is overthrown within its own organisation by a Sunni Arab uprising against it. Then a "3 state" solution would happen whereby the Sunni Arab populace is not entirely displaced but create a "wahabi state" jostled between Iraq - Syria and Kurdistan. - The Iranians and Iraqis would not like this due to the inherent expansionism of sunni Islam... the small "statelet" would be considered by Sunnis as simply the first "stepping stone" to "regaining Iraq".


    All in all a recipe for many more years of war.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:22 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:

    His solution?

    Abandon "Pan Arabism" - since the arabs betrayed him
    Abandon "Iraqi Nationalism" - Since the Shias betrayed him

    The only thing left was "Sunni Islam".


    but this was also against his party ideology "Ba'athism" which advocates secularism and is against fundamentalism


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    sheytanelkebir
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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:28 pm

    George1 wrote:
    sheytanelkebir wrote:

    His solution?

    Abandon "Pan Arabism" - since the arabs betrayed him
    Abandon "Iraqi Nationalism" - Since the Shias betrayed him

    The only thing left was "Sunni Islam".


    but this was also against his party ideology "Ba'athism" which advocates secularism and is against fundamentalism

    baathism was essentially "dead" after 1991... it was still there "officially" (like PRC is "communist" officially!), but essentially Iraq after 1991 was completely detached from the "origins" of Pan Arabism... and in fact there was a new party after 1991 called "friends of saddam" or "friends of the leader" which was the essential "replacement" for the old baath party. Sad to say that most of the "western media" simply never ever pick up on all these changes that happened in Iraq!!

    But then again this same media talks about "thousands of humvees and hundreds of abrams" that ISIS captured (utter nonsense) whilst never mentioning the "Mishraq sulfhur plant" in Mosul which was renovated and expanded by a US contractor in 2013-2014... just in time for ISIS to take over and use it as their main supply of raw materials for their war effort.

    http://www.devcousa.com/news/major-project-award-mishraq-sulfur-purification-facility

    http://www.devcousa.com/experience/mishraq




    in fact the "final deliveries" were on the 29th May 2014...
    http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/2014/05/29/devco-ships-53m-kit-to-sulfur-mine/

    and lo and behold... 10 days later the sunni arab and kurdish soldiers in mosul all abandon positions and switch sides as ISIS takes over.

    I'm sure they are making good use out of the 1M tonnes of Sulfur and ALum production per year... as can be seen by the level of explosions happening all over the region.

    But lets not mention any of this in the media.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:50 pm

    Sheytan you crack me up man. Thank you for the insight.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  zg18 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:01 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Sheytan you crack me up man. Thank you for the insight.

    Yeah , really interesting.

    @sheytanelkebir thumbsup



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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:08 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Q:

    Why are there so many ex-Saddam officers in IS? Does the world offer too few ideologies that out of all possibilities they choose Jihadi Islamism? Couldn't they choose liberal democracy or even communism instead?

    This question is interesting.

    It all started in 1991 just after the Gulf War Saddam recoiled from the double whammy of the "arab world" fighting against Iraq in the Gulf War as well as the Southern Iraqi Shia uprising against his regime...

    His solution?

    Abandon "Pan Arabism" - since the arabs betrayed him
    Abandon "Iraqi Nationalism" - Since the Shias betrayed him

    The only thing left was "Sunni Islam".

    Hence the birth of the "Faith Campaign" which raged throughout the 1990s until 2003.

    Initially people thought it was a "superficial" campaign by Saddam... build mosques, add "allah akbar" to the flag, ban Bars (but not alcohol!) and impose death sentence on prostitution...

    But it seems that whether it was planned, or by accident... a great number of Saddam's officers were drawn into this islamism... and after the fall of the regime in 2003 it was an easy "leap of faith" for them to get into wahhabism... Something that would have been "unthinkable" in the 1970s or 1980s.
    Sound very legit actually. Truisms in any religion lead to a different grade of totalitarianism. So I can see how easy for violent men it was to transit from secular power to religious control.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  mack8 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:48 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    sheytanelkebir wrote:

    His solution?

    Abandon "Pan Arabism" - since the arabs betrayed him
    Abandon "Iraqi Nationalism" - Since the Shias betrayed him

    The only thing left was "Sunni Islam".


    but this was also against his party ideology "Ba'athism" which advocates secularism and is against fundamentalism

    baathism was essentially "dead" after 1991... it was still there "officially" (like PRC is "communist" officially!), but essentially Iraq after 1991 was completely detached from the "origins" of Pan Arabism... and in fact there was a new party after 1991 called "friends of saddam" or "friends of the leader" which was the essential "replacement" for the old baath party. Sad to say that most of the "western media" simply never ever pick up on all these changes that happened in Iraq!!

    But then again this same media talks about "thousands of humvees and hundreds of abrams" that ISIS captured (utter nonsense) whilst never mentioning the "Mishraq sulfhur plant" in Mosul which was renovated and expanded by a US contractor in 2013-2014... just in time for ISIS to take over and use it as their main supply of raw materials for their war effort.

    http://www.devcousa.com/news/major-project-award-mishraq-sulfur-purification-facility

    http://www.devcousa.com/experience/mishraq




    in fact the "final deliveries" were on the 29th May 2014...
    http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/2014/05/29/devco-ships-53m-kit-to-sulfur-mine/

    and lo and behold... 10 days later the sunni arab and kurdish soldiers in mosul all abandon positions and switch sides as ISIS takes over.

    I'm sure they are making good use out of the 1M tonnes of Sulfur and ALum production per year... as can be seen by the level of explosions happening all over the region.

    But lets not mention any of this in the media.

    The iraqi airforce or army aviation didn't managed to destroy it yet Sheytan? I would have thought it would be a prime target.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:22 pm

    mack8 wrote:
    sheytanelkebir wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    sheytanelkebir wrote:

    His solution?

    Abandon "Pan Arabism" - since the arabs betrayed him
    Abandon "Iraqi Nationalism" - Since the Shias betrayed him

    The only thing left was "Sunni Islam".


    but this was also against his party ideology "Ba'athism" which advocates secularism and is against fundamentalism

    baathism was essentially "dead" after 1991... it was still there "officially" (like PRC is "communist" officially!), but essentially Iraq after 1991 was completely detached from the "origins" of Pan Arabism... and in fact there was a new party after 1991 called "friends of saddam" or "friends of the leader" which was the essential "replacement" for the old baath party. Sad to say that most of the "western media" simply never ever pick up on all these changes that happened in Iraq!!

    But then again this same media talks about "thousands of humvees and hundreds of abrams" that ISIS captured (utter nonsense) whilst never mentioning the "Mishraq sulfhur plant" in Mosul which was renovated and expanded by a US contractor in 2013-2014... just in time for ISIS to take over and use it as their main supply of raw materials for their war effort.

    http://www.devcousa.com/news/major-project-award-mishraq-sulfur-purification-facility

    http://www.devcousa.com/experience/mishraq




    in fact the "final deliveries" were on the 29th May 2014...
    http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/2014/05/29/devco-ships-53m-kit-to-sulfur-mine/

    and lo and behold... 10 days later the sunni arab and kurdish soldiers in mosul all abandon positions and switch sides as ISIS takes over.

    I'm sure they are making good use out of the 1M tonnes of Sulfur and ALum production per year... as can be seen by the level of explosions happening all over the region.

    But lets not mention any of this in the media.

    The iraqi airforce or army aviation didn't managed to destroy it yet Sheytan? I would have thought it would be a prime target.

    Nope.... Not quite sure why. It is possible that the areas there are zones reserved for the coalition and thus Iraqis are not allowed to fly there (USA decides zones... Predictably) to minimise confusion and "collateral damage".

    Interestingly isis prefers to have their open and vulnerable positions in those zones... Although there are examples when their vbied assembly plants are spectacularly blown up by aircraft.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  mack8 on Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:47 am

    Maybe the events will play so that the american scums are "invited" out and russian and perhaps iranian air attacks extend against the ISIL rats in Iraq too, then  that factory will be finally blown to pieces.

    Speaking of the vbied plants, are those spectacular explosions real or just for show... i would not be surprised in the least if the latter.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:48 am

    those explosions are very real... ISIS "assembly plants" would have several dozen VBIEDs being prepared at any one time... and they have 5-6 assembly plants running non stop since they run dozens of VBIEDs daily.

    So 2 of their plants were destroyed spectacularly... one by Iraqi Mi28Ne and one by RAF tornados.

    But that only "slows them down" for a few weeks at most. they readily expect to "lose" many of their assembly plants and have in place alternatives. They aren't dumb and certainly don't lack planning.

    But taking out the Sulfur plant and mine in Mishraq would deal them a "true blow" since its the main source of raw materials for their explosives. And it churns out 1 MILLION TONNES of sulfur annually! its a HUGE plant and is a key component of their war.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:34 pm

    Russia to consider air operation in Iraq if it gets request from Baghdad — lawmaker

    Russia’s Federation Council on September 30 voted to empower the president to use armed forces in Syria

    AMMAN, October 6. /TASS/. The speaker of the upper house of Russia’s parliament (Federation Council) Valentina Matviyenko believes that Russia will consider the political and military expediency of its participation in an air operation in Iraq, should it get an official request from that country.

    "If there is an official message from Iraq to the Russian Federation, we will consider the political and military expediency of our air force’s participation in the operation. There has been no such request so far," Matviyenko told the media after a meeting with Jordan’s Deputy Prime Minister, Foreign Minister Nasser Judeh on Tuesday.

    Russia’s Federation Council on September 30 voted to empower the president to use armed forces in Syria. As the head of the presidential staff Sergey Ivanov said that in Syria Russia would be using only its warplanes against the terrorist organization Islamic State (outlawed in Russia) at the request of President Bashar Assad.

    Russia’s air and space force started dealing pinpoint strikes against Islamic State targets on September 30. Its air group consists of 50 jets and helicopters, including Sukhoi-24M and Sukhoi-25 and the newest multi-role Sukhoi-34. Over the past few days Russian planes hit dozens of terrorist targets.


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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  iraqidabab on Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:12 pm

    Military officials say Iraq likely to welcome ‘no red line’ Russian airstrikes

    See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/military-officials-say-iraq-likely-welcome-no-red-line-russian-airstrikes-1790574154#sthash.dboHZSea.dpuf

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  Dima on Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:25 pm

    I feel, Russia should only keep the option open of striking on behalf of Iraqi govt. The primary objective now is to stabilize Syria and help strengthen the Syrian Govt/military and regain lost territory along with decimating as much terrorists as possible. Once an acceptable level of stabilization has been achieved should the Iraqi theater be handled. US is anyway striking ISIS targets (only the Yanks and God know what they have been striking for the past one year and now) so let them continue with it and help themselves with massaging their ego. An idle US without any bombing role would be more irritant for Russia, so let the US bomb anyone other than the Syrian Army/allies. It will keep both sides happy.
    Obama should not be sacrificed and I'm sure Putin has considered this in all his moves. Russian administration knows that regardless of the hostile acts by the Obama administration (Obama regime - if we take Western terminology often used for Russia/Syria/non-US poodle governments) outside of Obama and Kerry there are only mental retards.

    Like I said in some other thread some time back, Russia needs to buy time and balanace its acts. I personally would buy time and I feel Russian military needs time, mainly navy needs ships and I'm waiting patiently to see atleast 4 new combatants (11356 and 22350) to get active. Atleast 4 is better than none.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  iraqidabab on Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:42 pm

    ^^ Thing is if Iraq is liberated a huge amount of fighters will enter Syria to help fight terrorists there as they all know if Syria is unsafe Iraq will not be safe.

    As for US, they don't do anything, they have no 'strategy' as they often say meaning they don't know if they actually want Iraqi forces to retake it, they probably fear the amount of them who will go to Syria afterwards.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:11 pm

    Iraq, Russia Review Military-Technical Cooperation Agreements

    The delegation of Russia’s federal service for military-technical cooperation (MTC) that came to Baghdad reviewed the existing deals between Russia and Iraq, according to an Iraqi Defense Ministry spokesman.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The delegation of Russia’s federal service for military-technical cooperation (MTC) has reviewed several deals with Iraq during its visit to Baghdad, some of the agreements will be continued while some will be halted due to difficulties, an Iraqi Defense Ministry spokesman told Sputnik.

    "The participants of the meeting have again reviewed the existing deals between Russia and Iraq, they made a decision to stop implementation of some and continue [implementation] of others. Difficulties which arise from the managerial point of view as well as technical issues were discussed," Tahsin Ibrahim said.

    Russia and Iraq has been actively cooperating in various areas, including in military-technical development, oil and investment.

    In July, the sides signed an agreement on military-technical cooperation, to aid Iraq in countering Islamic State jihadist group advances in the country.

    On Wednesday, Iraqi Parliament Defense and Security Committee Chairman Haqim Zamli told Sputnik that Iraq may turn to Russia for military help in the fight against Islamic State if Russian airstrikes in Syria prove successful.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151013/1028480729/iraq-russia-cooperation.html#ixzz3oTr4YBNg


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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:37 pm

    I imagine the technical issues are completely related to US pressure on Iraq? That would make plenty of sense. I guess if they made more deals together without being in the limelight, they can get a lot done. Maybe sign agreement for MiG's or tanks or something in small batches?

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:17 pm

    Russian-Iraqi Business Council

    The Organization which is intended for facilitating the establishment of business relations between the Russian and Iraqi business communities as well as to contributing to the trade and economic cooperation development between Russia and Iraq



    The Russian-Iraqi Business Council was established on December 5th, 2012, under the auspices of the Russian Chamber of Commerce and the Russian-Arab Business Council

    http://www.rirbc.ru/en/


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    sheytanelkebir
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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:18 pm

    if you invite them, I won't play anymore.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-iraq-chose-between-american-and-russian-airstrikes-in-isis-fight/

    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:21 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:if you invite them, I won't play anymore.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-iraq-chose-between-american-and-russian-airstrikes-in-isis-fight/
    Why so much frustration? If ISIS is such a horrible satanic entity as Americans aay, why they don't want to fight it together with Russia?

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:46 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:if you invite them, I won't play anymore.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-iraq-chose-between-american-and-russian-airstrikes-in-isis-fight/

    Interesting times....this sort of thing would've seemed unimaginable even a few weeks ago

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:31 pm

    Does that mean that US will stop bombing Syrian and Iraqi resistance against ISIS? They never bombed ISIS everyone knows that, if US wants to destroy something they do it with lot of collateral damage, but they haven't done anything else but to pave the way for ISIS into Syria and have done absolutley nothing in Iraq, columns with thousands of ISIS terrorists could ride into Iraq without a single shot fired, but almost no civilian survived trying to flee from Bagdad as the muh-ricans have bombarded the roads leaving Bagdad which is very famous today which just shows US cynism in the world.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:04 pm

    What resistance? Are they bombing Syrian army or what?

    If yes - show us proof. Maybe some official info from SANA, Press TV etc. Like I said before, if USA is bombing Assad, Assad has no f... business in hiding it from the world. Israelis did some bombings mostly agaisnt Hezbollah but there were only a few of them and casualties casued by them mean nothing in strategic or even operational sclae.

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    Re: Russia - Iraq bilateral cooperation

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:30 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:What resistance? Are they bombing Syrian army or what?

    If yes - show us proof. Maybe some official info from SANA, Press TV etc. Like I said before, if USA is bombing Assad, Assad has no f... business in hiding it from the world. Israelis did some bombings mostly agaisnt Hezbollah but there were only a few of them and casualties casued by them mean nothing in strategic or even operational sclae.


    How about first factual evidence that US bombed ISIS, with factual evidence of the dead not some black and white footage of destroyed Toyota pickups which US bought in tenthousands for ISIS themselfs. Factual evidence of bombing against ISIS shown and proven to be in ISIS not some garbage video with just a title and old footage from some other place which the west constantly uses.


    http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-bombs-syrian-oil-refineries-to-prevent-assad-from-retaking-them/5404808

    http://topwar.ru/59055-ssha-bombyat-siriyskaya-armiya-osvobozhdaet.html

    yandex translated
    In any case, Syria, of course, the damage from American air strikes, even if they are directed against terrorists. Suffer buildings, oil fields, infrastructure. After a while, after the inevitable victory, the Syrian people will restore everything that was destroyed by the terrorists, and that defeated the Tomahawks.

    I find it funny that you come up with such garbage when it is so obvious especially since ISIS was financed and created by the very same countries that are the first to announce air strikes against ISIS, Turkey, Israel, US, Saudis, UAE and every shit of this countries has only attacked what targets they wanted. The turks have attacked PKK kurds, the Israelis have attacked Syria the US has attacked infrastructure almost Serbian style, Sauds and UAE have attacked whatever but ISIS. Not a little suspicious that the biggest Terror supporting countries which till this day unbroken and unholded have supported and are supporting Terror groups such as ISIS,FSA,Al-CIAda,Al-Nusra,Taliban etc all the same terrorists under different names to create an "Islamic threat" in the mindest of stupid westerners like you.

    Very suspicious that the trouble makers are coming forth to be the saviors from their own created terrorism. Mafia style 101. Use a brain.

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