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    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

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    GarryB

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:45 am

    Both ARENA and Shtora are available for export... not cheap but them getting them into service and operational should help the technology mature and reduce costs...


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    Isos

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Isos on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:Both ARENA and Shtora are available for export... not cheap but them getting them into service and operational should help the technology mature and reduce costs...

    If Iraq wants tanks, they will need to equip them with Arena. If not they will be destroyed easily by all the ATGM all groups have. Against russian ATM shtora is useless.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Militarov on Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:55 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Those are reasonable low cost solutions to Iraqs current problems.

    With the value of oil so low it does not make sense to get into enormous debt to anyone.

    But you have rats to kill... with modern optics and communcations an upgraded T-72 with a 125mm gun and some decent ERA should be as effective as any other modern tank, while likely remaining affordable and usable.

    Is the Arena system available for export ?

    It basically IS export product, since it was never fitted to any vehicle in Russian service. Arena-E was offered on almost every single military expo for like 20 years now. Never scored export contract tho.
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    Isos

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:45 am


    It basically IS export product, since it was never fitted to any vehicle in Russian service. Arena-E was offered on almost every single military expo for like 20 years now. Never scored export contract tho.

    Well 20 years ago the idea was to fight other tanks in big battles, now the main threats for any country in the middle east are ATGM, so they could probably found someone to buy it. The loses of turkish army and syrian army and the survivability of Israeli Trophy-equiped Merkavas are an evidence that the system is not obsolate.
    Maybe an "upgrade" (with the marketing that it generates) is needed.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:50 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Those are reasonable low cost solutions to Iraqs current problems.

    With the value of oil so low it does not make sense to get into enormous debt to anyone.

    But you have rats to kill... with modern optics and communcations an upgraded T-72 with a 125mm gun and some decent ERA should be as effective as any other modern tank, while likely remaining affordable and usable.

    Is the Arena system available for export ?

    It basically IS export product, since it was never fitted to any vehicle in Russian service. Arena-E was offered on almost every single military expo for like 20 years now. Never scored export contract tho.

    Normal no one believed in it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:44 am

    Normal no one believed in it.

    So many people pointed out that it could not defeat Javelin type weapons.

    The huge irony of course is that recent western and Russian experience with tanks in combat is that the biggest threat is RPGs, IEDs and guided ATGMs.

    Arena is fine for 99% of operational ATGMs and RPGs, and Shtora reduces the effectiveness of guided missiles like TOW etc.

    Together it makes tank crews safer... without needing to make the vehicle 70 tons in weight.

    It basically IS export product, since it was never fitted to any vehicle in Russian service. Arena-E was offered on almost every single military expo for like 20 years now. Never scored export contract tho.

    It was largely unproven.

    Drozd was used in Afghanistan in the 1980s by the Soviets and was found to be 70% effective against RPGs.Improvements were made to develop Drozd 2 and of course Arena... but current systems... Afghanistan for heavy vehicles and Standard for light and medium vehicles should be interesting. ARENA-2 should also be interesting too and the most likely offered for export any time soon.


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    Militarov

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Militarov on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:11 am

    Isos wrote:

    It basically IS export product, since it was never fitted to any vehicle in Russian service. Arena-E was offered on almost every single military expo for like 20 years now. Never scored export contract tho.

    Well 20 years ago the idea was to fight other tanks in big battles, now the main threats for any country in the middle east are ATGM, so they could probably found someone to buy it. The loses of turkish army and syrian army and the survivability of Israeli Trophy-equiped Merkavas are an evidence that the system is not obsolate.
    Maybe an "upgrade" (with the marketing that it generates) is needed.

    We knew that big tank battles are gone in 80s already. ATGMs did their job of proving the point some 20 years earlier. I belive that ppl actually doubted the effectiveness of the systems on the market. But now with implementation of systems like Trophy, Iron Fist and whatnot... that might change.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:00 am

    APS systems are soft armour... not as reliable as hard armour which is always there an always working.

    The thing is that with hard armour you can only properly armour your vehicle from the front 60 degree angle really... the sides and rear and top and belly are therefore vulnerable to even the cheapest simplest RPG.

    With soft armour it wont be perfect but can be had with 360 degree coverage, and while most on the market really only offer real protection from subsonic and transonic anti tank guided missiles the newer systems like Afghan and Standard are reportedly capable of defeating APFSDS rounds... an impressive effort if confirmed.

    Of course with armour it is all about percentages... only a small percentage of enemies will have APFSDS rounds able to penetrate your tank from the front... the vast majority of armies around the world will have access to effective RPG type weapons... which means even if ARENA 2 can't stop APFSDS round your vehicles will be much safer on the battlefield with it fitted than without it.

    It is a call the military has to make... the purchase and operation of such a new system wont be cheap, but it will be useful in most combat and even most COIN type operations they might be involved with.

    With local production local modifications can be made to further improve performance in areas you want too.

    It wont make your tanks invincible, but together with better ERA and systems like SHTORA can make your tanks much more survivable in real combat.


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    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:35 am

    after a very long quiet period in the Iraqi-Russian arms relations (due to financial difficulties that Iraq has) it seems that Uralvagonzavod has finally shown some light at the end of the tunnel...

    73 T90S tanks which Iraq ordered many years ago will finally be fulfilled this year!


    Lets hope this news will be followed by the even more important categories in fighter jets and long range SAMs that are on hold.
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    medo

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  medo on Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:37 pm

    I would say success of T-90 and T-72B3 are also good arguments for buying them.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:23 pm

    A great tank but I think Iraq would have been better buying upgraded T-72 tanks would have been cheaper and something troops and maintenance crew would be more use to. Another useful purchase would be Bmpt -72. Hopefully Iraq will now use Russia as it's main arm supplier. Mi-35M, Su-30SM, Mig-29M2, upgraded Su-24, Su-25, and multirole yak-130 would be good next purchases

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:55 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:A great tank but I think Iraq would have been better buying upgraded T-72 tanks would have been cheaper and something troops and maintenance crew would be more use to. Another useful purchase would be Bmpt -72. Hopefully Iraq will now use Russia as it's main arm supplier. Mi-35M, Su-30SM, Mig-29M2, upgraded Su-24, Su-25, and multirole yak-130 would be good next purchases

    well Iraq already has Mi35M and Mi28Ne / UB. I don't think they need any SU-24s, and they won't add any more SU-25s. Similarly they already bought 36 light jets (24 FA-50 and 12 L-159s) so the Yak-130 would be redundant.

    What they desperately need however are long range area defence SAMs and effective air defence fighters. Either the MiG35 or SU30SM would be perfect for that... in addition to S300/S400 type.

    I believe that in addition to the T90S.. Russia will donate about 200 old T-55s to Iraq which will be locally modernised in collaboration with UVZ in the Basra tank refurbishment plant.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:37 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:A great tank but I think Iraq would have been better buying upgraded T-72 tanks would have been cheaper and something troops and maintenance crew would be more use to. Another useful purchase would be Bmpt -72. Hopefully Iraq will now use Russia as it's main arm supplier. Mi-35M, Su-30SM, Mig-29M2, upgraded Su-24, Su-25, and multirole yak-130 would be good next purchases

    well Iraq already has Mi35M and Mi28Ne / UB. I don't think they need any SU-24s, and they won't add any more SU-25s. Similarly they already bought 36 light jets (24 FA-50 and 12 L-159s) so the Yak-130 would be redundant.

    What they desperately need however are long range area defence SAMs and effective air defence fighters. Either the MiG35 or SU30SM would be perfect for that... in addition to S300/S400 type.

    I believe that in addition to the T90S.. Russia will donate about 200 old T-55s to Iraq which will be locally modernised in collaboration with UVZ in the Basra tank refurbishment plant.

    Makes sense.

    No, hell no, Iraq doesn't need anything more than Mig-29Ms, the Mig-35s are simply too expensive for Iraq's current needs and i don't see any SU-30 for Iraq either.
    And as for S-300/400, no, they don't have the money for that, i don't recommend anything more than some Buk systems.

    T55s??... really, ok.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:41 pm

    I was suggesting if they were planning to expand on what they already have. And money can be an issue especially now that they will have to repair war damaged buildings etc. But cheaper aircraft like Su-24, Su -25, mig-29m yak-130 and mi-35 are ideal I don't see Iraq having a major air threat at the moment mig-29 and pantsir buk tor sosna r strelets tunkuska upgraded zsu-23-4 upgraded zu23-2 is all they would need. Although they received MRAP from Usa I am sure many have been damaged so would be good idea to buy typhoon MRAP. T-55 are still useful and Syria proved it but what type of upgrades????? I think it's more likely
    T-72 they will receive but I might be wrong. And no aircraft would be redundant in the iraqi air force. Another purchase would be Bmp-3 there was a rumour but I think that was all it was
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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:30 am

    Would be interesting to upgrade a T-55 with a high velocity 57mm gun, or even an upgraded 76.2mm gun with modern ammo.

    More ammo carried... reduce the crew to two or three with an autoloading system... modern capable optics and aiming systems... new dynamic armour... and APS.


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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:45 am

    It would essentially end up as a lighter tank if done right. T-55 may be old but it can get basic armor package and an upgraded gun and can be a light tank. They are used quite effectively (Chinese variant) in Tibet, but being replaced by a new light tank. No need to make it new, just modify it and can be effective again.
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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:21 am

    Good ideas on the T-55 I believe there was rumours of Peru wanting to upgrade some of their T-55 with the turret of Bmpt. On the subject of 57mm gun I always thought that the Zsu 57-2 was always a good ground support vehicle after the anti air capacity was diminished with introduction of anti air missiles. Still a good use for the vehicle although an enclosed turret upgrade should be included to protect gunner. I know some have had crude turret roofs welded on to them in the past. Ideally a T-55 with a Bmpt turret but replace the 30mm guns with a single or double 57mm gun.

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:32 pm

    T-55s are needed to fill out a major fire support shortage in the infantry units.

    Iraq does in fact have several contracts signed in the spring of 2014 for armour including:
    150 T90S
    unknown number of 2S19
    150 BMP3

    Some units of the 9th Division 34th Brigade actually began early training for both T90 and BMP3 then.
    all of these were put on hold after the ISIS takeover in June 2014, and now seem to have been resumed.


    Iraq's real weakness is in air defence. Turkey, Saudi, Kuwait, Jordan and anyone else can fly over Iraq and bomb any point without Iraqis being able to challenge them or even just deter them in any way. Its a critical weakness that leaves them vulnerable to political blackmail by these neighbouring states.

    It was always part of the plan to implement S300 SAMs and the PANTSIR-S1 systems were acquired as the first phase of the AD system (the others being the C2 system, Early Warning Systems and the long range SAMs).

    I believe China has offered FD-2000 SAMs to Iraq last year on a credit agreement for $2.5Bn guaranteed by Chinese run oilfields in Iraq, however its still coming and going in Iraq between that and the Russian option.

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:57 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Good ideas on the T-55 I believe there was rumours of Peru wanting to upgrade some of their T-55 with the turret of Bmpt. On the subject of 57mm gun I always thought that the Zsu 57-2 was always a good ground support vehicle after the anti air capacity was diminished with introduction of anti air missiles. Still a good use for the vehicle although an enclosed turret upgrade should be included to protect gunner. I know some have had crude turret roofs welded on to them in the past. Ideally a T-55 with a Bmpt turret but replace the 30mm guns with a single or double 57mm gun.

    I think these are the home made jobbies you mean.

    http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2329&start=75


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    GarryB

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:24 am

    If it is fire support you are after then the medium pressure 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3 would make more sense to fit to a T-55.

    It packs a good HE punch without having an enormous shell case and for situations where enemy armour needs to be engaged a guided shell and a HEAT shell are available.

    You could probably modify the target for one crewman and use an autoloader. The smaller ammo means you could carry a few hundred rounds easily and with rather less recoil.


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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:31 am

    Would you transfer the whole bmp-3 turret or just the 100mm gun. I am actually surprised Russia hasnt offered the turret as upgrade package for T-55 customers.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:20 am

    Protection level of the BMP turret is not really high enough.

    I seem to remember that the T-54/T-55 had space in the front hull for two crew originally with a bow machine gun and bow machine gunner arrangement.

    With modern optics and a two man crew sitting in the front hull with existing hull armour with an extra layer of ceramic armour and perhaps a decent ERA or NERA layer and of course an active defence system should be plenty of protection.

    A reshaped turret with superior optics and the 100mm rifled main gun replaced with a 100mm rifled medium pressure gun and a 30mm cannon but with the turret area filled with ammo... on the BMP-3 the turret ring held 40 rounds of 100mm ammo with 8 missiles and 500 30mm cannon shells in the turret along with 2,000 rounds for the coaxial MG.

    I would say with two crewmen not in the turret a double load should be easily possible with 80 rounds of 100mm HE shells, and 1,000 rounds of 30 x 165mm ammo and 16 guided missiles, plus 4,000 MG rounds.

    I would also add a roof mounted remote weapons station either for a 30mm or 40mm grenade launcher.

    A bit like a well protected IFV without troop carrying capacity.

    In most cases it will be vastly more use than any tank which is better suited to taking on enemy equivalents of a MBT, this vehicle would be ideal for taking on enemy troops and medium to light vehicles most of the time and also light enemy aircraft with the capability to engage enemy armour too (with ATGMs).


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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:30 pm

    Sounds like a good plan for T-55. I have always thought that there is still a good use for T54/55 T-62 T-64 even the Syrians found a use for there old T-34 by mounting D-30 on it. The Cubans seem to be good at doing that sort of thing with old guns even a Btr -60 with T-55 turret. Many old artillery pieces have ended up on various vehicles. Btr60/70/80 and btr-50 as well as Bmp-1, MT-LB, Btr-152, Btr-40, brdm 1 & 2 T-34 are all still viable platforms. And all the various artillery, anti air guns, mortars are all enough to mount. I always thought a SP 160 mm could be a good option mounted in a btr 50 open the hatches mortar flips up and then ready for action. Also double barrelled 76 and or 85 mm artillery guns would be great still reasonable range and the lack of fire power would be negated by the high rate of fire from double barrels this would havoc on light armour and troops on the ground imagine that vehicle could fire 50 rounds per minute of 76mm (25 rpm from one barrel) or 40 rpm of 85mm of course and auto loader system would have to be installed but if think if these vehicles existed and what a group of 8-12 vehicles could do. 12 vehicles mounted with double 76mm for instance could fire 600 rounds in 1 minute and if fired against troops out in open ground or in soft cover that's certain death. It's just an idea of course Smile
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    GarryB

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:15 am

    Actually it has been improvements in armour that has led to light calibres being withdrawn steadily from front line use... an example is the British Abbot in 105mm calibre... a calibre widely used by Germany in WWII as an artillery piece.

    It has largely been rendered obsolete by improvements in Soviet and now Russian armour levels, but the point is that the level of armour protection on Russian IFVs and MBTs etc etc has no relevance for a country like Iraq or Nigeria for that matter. The opponents they might fight will not have helmets and flak vests and wont move around in much more than trucks, so smaller calibres have benefits in terms of ammo size and weight and amount of ammo ready to fire and also in terms of recoil and support and supply.

    I don't think that double barrel guns are really that great an idea as the weight of a extra barrel would be enormous and the added loading mechanism and stabilisation and laying equipment would fill the turret and add costs and weight.

    I think investing in an auto loading/ammo handling system to increase rate of fire for the existing single gun and some sort of cooling system to allow sustained fire would make more sense.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:30 pm

    Iraqi Ministry of Defence spokesman announced that Iraq will soon announce a large arms purchase agreement to expand and diversify the military.

    The following items were mentioned:
    -modern fighter jets
    -New helicopters for army aviation
    -Modern Battle Tanks
    -New Armoured Fighting Vehicles
    -New Air defence systems

    The spokesman did not mention anything about types. But the keyword that Iraq is seeking alternative suppliers hints that the new equipment will have a Russian or Chinese origin.

    Anyway, many such contracts have been negotiated and signed in the past and stumbled on financing... so we shall see what happens.

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