Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 1545
    Points : 1725
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually I would say the best bet would normally be an Su-24 with the G&T upgrade to allow it to operate with cheap dumb bombs making it cheap to buy and cheap to actually use.

    The problem is that the Su-24 operating in your own airspace is overkill... penetrating enemy airspace at low altitude and high speed is what it is all about.

    Fitting the G&T upgrades to Su-25s and MiG-29s would offer cheap point target capability in robust cheap aircraft. In the case of the MiG you can upgrade to semi MiG-35 level if you start with the MiG-29M2 model which should be affordable and also capable.

    With the upgrade the Su-25 can hit hard with unguided bombs and rockets and survive return fire like few other aircraft can.

    The critical thing is that with the upgrades... which are not expensive... they do their work with cheap simple ammo so you can actually afford to use them a lot... which is a critical thing most westerners ignore.

    Some unmanned drones able to carry light weapons would be interesting too... perhaps a joint venture with a Russian company. The Soviets developed a range of ATGMs optimised for use from aircraft. ASCII codenames AT-2, AT-6 and AT-9 are all high speed command guided missiles with no wire guidance to slow them down.

    Experience has shown these missiles could penetrate even the heaviest tank deployed in the region from the flank or rear and the HE equipped models would be rather more effective against targets like vehicles or rooms of a building make them even more useful.

    A light high flying UAV with the equivalent of the G&T upgrade would allow cheap light bombs to be used effectively... FAB-50 in internal weapon bays would be devastating against light targets and limit collateral damage to the area.

    i couldn't agree more, and i like the idea of UAV using existing missiles such as the AT-2, AT-6, etc, cheap simple and effective, and like you pointed out the munitions need to be cheap and used with the G&T make them pretty accurate so that they can be used in greater numbers and it won't break the bank in a conflict.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21441
    Points : 21991
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:36 am

    Any AT-2 stocks would likely be time expired but any existing stock of AT-3 would be useful in SACLOS mode to defeat suicide bombers. HEAT warheads and HE warheads can be used depending upon the tactic of the enemy...HEAT for armoured trucks and HE for unarmoured vehicles.

    Fagot and Konkurs were cheap enough and made in fairly enormous numbers, but then for infantry use the Metis was developed because it was so cheap and easy to manufacture.

    Of course for aircraft deployment the Shturm or Ataka are perfectly adequate as they are without modification and for ground forces Metis-M are cheap and simple for the task.
    avatar
    sheytanelkebir

    Posts : 538
    Points : 555
    Join date : 2013-09-16

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:14 pm

    At the recent IDEX show there was another request by Iraq for new heavy weapons from russia (without details) and the Russian counterpart said they are eager to assist Iraq with that... whether the financial wall can be climbed is another question.


    Recently however there was cooperation between Iraq and Russia in defence production:

    -Russia agreed to allow Iraq to manufacture the ATAKA missiles for domestic Iraqi use.
    -They discussed a cooperation between Iraq and uralvagonzavod to upgrade Iraqi T72s to T90 standard which they called "T92". Since Iraq can't afford to buy new tanks. Russia also said they can supply old tanks that can be domestically upgraded.

    Beyond Russia, Iraq has also come to an agreement to produce locally the Belarusian anti tank missile Shershen.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21441
    Points : 21991
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:27 am

    Those are reasonable low cost solutions to Iraqs current problems.

    With the value of oil so low it does not make sense to get into enormous debt to anyone.

    But you have rats to kill... with modern optics and communcations an upgraded T-72 with a 125mm gun and some decent ERA should be as effective as any other modern tank, while likely remaining affordable and usable.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3649
    Points : 3641
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:Those are reasonable low cost solutions to Iraqs current problems.

    With the value of oil so low it does not make sense to get into enormous debt to anyone.

    But you have rats to kill... with modern optics and communcations an upgraded T-72 with a 125mm gun and some decent ERA should be as effective as any other modern tank, while likely remaining affordable and usable.

    Is the Arena system available for export ?
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21441
    Points : 21991
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:45 am

    Both ARENA and Shtora are available for export... not cheap but them getting them into service and operational should help the technology mature and reduce costs...
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3649
    Points : 3641
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Isos on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:Both ARENA and Shtora are available for export... not cheap but them getting them into service and operational should help the technology mature and reduce costs...

    If Iraq wants tanks, they will need to equip them with Arena. If not they will be destroyed easily by all the ATGM all groups have. Against russian ATM shtora is useless.
    avatar
    Guest
    Guest

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Guest on Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:55 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Those are reasonable low cost solutions to Iraqs current problems.

    With the value of oil so low it does not make sense to get into enormous debt to anyone.

    But you have rats to kill... with modern optics and communcations an upgraded T-72 with a 125mm gun and some decent ERA should be as effective as any other modern tank, while likely remaining affordable and usable.

    Is the Arena system available for export ?

    It basically IS export product, since it was never fitted to any vehicle in Russian service. Arena-E was offered on almost every single military expo for like 20 years now. Never scored export contract tho.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3649
    Points : 3641
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:45 am


    It basically IS export product, since it was never fitted to any vehicle in Russian service. Arena-E was offered on almost every single military expo for like 20 years now. Never scored export contract tho.

    Well 20 years ago the idea was to fight other tanks in big battles, now the main threats for any country in the middle east are ATGM, so they could probably found someone to buy it. The loses of turkish army and syrian army and the survivability of Israeli Trophy-equiped Merkavas are an evidence that the system is not obsolate.
    Maybe an "upgrade" (with the marketing that it generates) is needed.
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 3981
    Points : 3998
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:50 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Those are reasonable low cost solutions to Iraqs current problems.

    With the value of oil so low it does not make sense to get into enormous debt to anyone.

    But you have rats to kill... with modern optics and communcations an upgraded T-72 with a 125mm gun and some decent ERA should be as effective as any other modern tank, while likely remaining affordable and usable.

    Is the Arena system available for export ?

    It basically IS export product, since it was never fitted to any vehicle in Russian service. Arena-E was offered on almost every single military expo for like 20 years now. Never scored export contract tho.

    Normal no one believed in it.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21441
    Points : 21991
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:44 am

    Normal no one believed in it.

    So many people pointed out that it could not defeat Javelin type weapons.

    The huge irony of course is that recent western and Russian experience with tanks in combat is that the biggest threat is RPGs, IEDs and guided ATGMs.

    Arena is fine for 99% of operational ATGMs and RPGs, and Shtora reduces the effectiveness of guided missiles like TOW etc.

    Together it makes tank crews safer... without needing to make the vehicle 70 tons in weight.

    It basically IS export product, since it was never fitted to any vehicle in Russian service. Arena-E was offered on almost every single military expo for like 20 years now. Never scored export contract tho.

    It was largely unproven.

    Drozd was used in Afghanistan in the 1980s by the Soviets and was found to be 70% effective against RPGs.Improvements were made to develop Drozd 2 and of course Arena... but current systems... Afghanistan for heavy vehicles and Standard for light and medium vehicles should be interesting. ARENA-2 should also be interesting too and the most likely offered for export any time soon.
    avatar
    Guest
    Guest

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Guest on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:11 am

    Isos wrote:

    It basically IS export product, since it was never fitted to any vehicle in Russian service. Arena-E was offered on almost every single military expo for like 20 years now. Never scored export contract tho.

    Well 20 years ago the idea was to fight other tanks in big battles, now the main threats for any country in the middle east are ATGM, so they could probably found someone to buy it. The loses of turkish army and syrian army and the survivability of Israeli Trophy-equiped Merkavas are an evidence that the system is not obsolate.
    Maybe an "upgrade" (with the marketing that it generates) is needed.

    We knew that big tank battles are gone in 80s already. ATGMs did their job of proving the point some 20 years earlier. I belive that ppl actually doubted the effectiveness of the systems on the market. But now with implementation of systems like Trophy, Iron Fist and whatnot... that might change.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21441
    Points : 21991
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:00 am

    APS systems are soft armour... not as reliable as hard armour which is always there an always working.

    The thing is that with hard armour you can only properly armour your vehicle from the front 60 degree angle really... the sides and rear and top and belly are therefore vulnerable to even the cheapest simplest RPG.

    With soft armour it wont be perfect but can be had with 360 degree coverage, and while most on the market really only offer real protection from subsonic and transonic anti tank guided missiles the newer systems like Afghan and Standard are reportedly capable of defeating APFSDS rounds... an impressive effort if confirmed.

    Of course with armour it is all about percentages... only a small percentage of enemies will have APFSDS rounds able to penetrate your tank from the front... the vast majority of armies around the world will have access to effective RPG type weapons... which means even if ARENA 2 can't stop APFSDS round your vehicles will be much safer on the battlefield with it fitted than without it.

    It is a call the military has to make... the purchase and operation of such a new system wont be cheap, but it will be useful in most combat and even most COIN type operations they might be involved with.

    With local production local modifications can be made to further improve performance in areas you want too.

    It wont make your tanks invincible, but together with better ERA and systems like SHTORA can make your tanks much more survivable in real combat.
    avatar
    sheytanelkebir

    Posts : 538
    Points : 555
    Join date : 2013-09-16

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:35 am

    after a very long quiet period in the Iraqi-Russian arms relations (due to financial difficulties that Iraq has) it seems that Uralvagonzavod has finally shown some light at the end of the tunnel...

    73 T90S tanks which Iraq ordered many years ago will finally be fulfilled this year!


    Lets hope this news will be followed by the even more important categories in fighter jets and long range SAMs that are on hold.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3569
    Points : 3653
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  medo on Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:37 pm

    I would say success of T-90 and T-72B3 are also good arguments for buying them.
    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 1545
    Points : 1725
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:23 pm

    A great tank but I think Iraq would have been better buying upgraded T-72 tanks would have been cheaper and something troops and maintenance crew would be more use to. Another useful purchase would be Bmpt -72. Hopefully Iraq will now use Russia as it's main arm supplier. Mi-35M, Su-30SM, Mig-29M2, upgraded Su-24, Su-25, and multirole yak-130 would be good next purchases
    avatar
    sheytanelkebir

    Posts : 538
    Points : 555
    Join date : 2013-09-16

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:55 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:A great tank but I think Iraq would have been better buying upgraded T-72 tanks would have been cheaper and something troops and maintenance crew would be more use to. Another useful purchase would be Bmpt -72. Hopefully Iraq will now use Russia as it's main arm supplier. Mi-35M, Su-30SM, Mig-29M2, upgraded Su-24, Su-25, and multirole yak-130 would be good next purchases

    well Iraq already has Mi35M and Mi28Ne / UB. I don't think they need any SU-24s, and they won't add any more SU-25s. Similarly they already bought 36 light jets (24 FA-50 and 12 L-159s) so the Yak-130 would be redundant.

    What they desperately need however are long range area defence SAMs and effective air defence fighters. Either the MiG35 or SU30SM would be perfect for that... in addition to S300/S400 type.

    I believe that in addition to the T90S.. Russia will donate about 200 old T-55s to Iraq which will be locally modernised in collaboration with UVZ in the Basra tank refurbishment plant.
    AlfaT8
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1806
    Points : 1801
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:37 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:A great tank but I think Iraq would have been better buying upgraded T-72 tanks would have been cheaper and something troops and maintenance crew would be more use to. Another useful purchase would be Bmpt -72. Hopefully Iraq will now use Russia as it's main arm supplier. Mi-35M, Su-30SM, Mig-29M2, upgraded Su-24, Su-25, and multirole yak-130 would be good next purchases

    well Iraq already has Mi35M and Mi28Ne / UB. I don't think they need any SU-24s, and they won't add any more SU-25s. Similarly they already bought 36 light jets (24 FA-50 and 12 L-159s) so the Yak-130 would be redundant.

    What they desperately need however are long range area defence SAMs and effective air defence fighters. Either the MiG35 or SU30SM would be perfect for that... in addition to S300/S400 type.

    I believe that in addition to the T90S.. Russia will donate about 200 old T-55s to Iraq which will be locally modernised in collaboration with UVZ in the Basra tank refurbishment plant.

    Makes sense.

    No, hell no, Iraq doesn't need anything more than Mig-29Ms, the Mig-35s are simply too expensive for Iraq's current needs and i don't see any SU-30 for Iraq either.
    And as for S-300/400, no, they don't have the money for that, i don't recommend anything more than some Buk systems.

    T55s??... really, ok.
    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 1545
    Points : 1725
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:41 pm

    I was suggesting if they were planning to expand on what they already have. And money can be an issue especially now that they will have to repair war damaged buildings etc. But cheaper aircraft like Su-24, Su -25, mig-29m yak-130 and mi-35 are ideal I don't see Iraq having a major air threat at the moment mig-29 and pantsir buk tor sosna r strelets tunkuska upgraded zsu-23-4 upgraded zu23-2 is all they would need. Although they received MRAP from Usa I am sure many have been damaged so would be good idea to buy typhoon MRAP. T-55 are still useful and Syria proved it but what type of upgrades????? I think it's more likely
    T-72 they will receive but I might be wrong. And no aircraft would be redundant in the iraqi air force. Another purchase would be Bmp-3 there was a rumour but I think that was all it was
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21441
    Points : 21991
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:30 am

    Would be interesting to upgrade a T-55 with a high velocity 57mm gun, or even an upgraded 76.2mm gun with modern ammo.

    More ammo carried... reduce the crew to two or three with an autoloading system... modern capable optics and aiming systems... new dynamic armour... and APS.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 3712
    Points : 3694
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:45 am

    It would essentially end up as a lighter tank if done right. T-55 may be old but it can get basic armor package and an upgraded gun and can be a light tank. They are used quite effectively (Chinese variant) in Tibet, but being replaced by a new light tank. No need to make it new, just modify it and can be effective again.
    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 1545
    Points : 1725
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:21 am

    Good ideas on the T-55 I believe there was rumours of Peru wanting to upgrade some of their T-55 with the turret of Bmpt. On the subject of 57mm gun I always thought that the Zsu 57-2 was always a good ground support vehicle after the anti air capacity was diminished with introduction of anti air missiles. Still a good use for the vehicle although an enclosed turret upgrade should be included to protect gunner. I know some have had crude turret roofs welded on to them in the past. Ideally a T-55 with a Bmpt turret but replace the 30mm guns with a single or double 57mm gun.
    avatar
    sheytanelkebir

    Posts : 538
    Points : 555
    Join date : 2013-09-16

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:32 pm

    T-55s are needed to fill out a major fire support shortage in the infantry units.

    Iraq does in fact have several contracts signed in the spring of 2014 for armour including:
    150 T90S
    unknown number of 2S19
    150 BMP3

    Some units of the 9th Division 34th Brigade actually began early training for both T90 and BMP3 then.
    all of these were put on hold after the ISIS takeover in June 2014, and now seem to have been resumed.


    Iraq's real weakness is in air defence. Turkey, Saudi, Kuwait, Jordan and anyone else can fly over Iraq and bomb any point without Iraqis being able to challenge them or even just deter them in any way. Its a critical weakness that leaves them vulnerable to political blackmail by these neighbouring states.

    It was always part of the plan to implement S300 SAMs and the PANTSIR-S1 systems were acquired as the first phase of the AD system (the others being the C2 system, Early Warning Systems and the long range SAMs).

    I believe China has offered FD-2000 SAMs to Iraq last year on a credit agreement for $2.5Bn guaranteed by Chinese run oilfields in Iraq, however its still coming and going in Iraq between that and the Russian option.
    avatar
    sheytanelkebir

    Posts : 538
    Points : 555
    Join date : 2013-09-16

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:57 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Good ideas on the T-55 I believe there was rumours of Peru wanting to upgrade some of their T-55 with the turret of Bmpt. On the subject of 57mm gun I always thought that the Zsu 57-2 was always a good ground support vehicle after the anti air capacity was diminished with introduction of anti air missiles. Still a good use for the vehicle although an enclosed turret upgrade should be included to protect gunner. I know some have had crude turret roofs welded on to them in the past. Ideally a T-55 with a Bmpt turret but replace the 30mm guns with a single or double 57mm gun.

    I think these are the home made jobbies you mean.

    http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2329&start=75


    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21441
    Points : 21991
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:24 am

    If it is fire support you are after then the medium pressure 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3 would make more sense to fit to a T-55.

    It packs a good HE punch without having an enormous shell case and for situations where enemy armour needs to be engaged a guided shell and a HEAT shell are available.

    You could probably modify the target for one crewman and use an autoloader. The smaller ammo means you could carry a few hundred rounds easily and with rather less recoil.

    Sponsored content

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 27 Empty Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:06 am