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    T-62s in Russian Army

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:57 pm


    I think this is about two things:

    1) Having something that reservists can play around with than isn't ancient metal box

    2) Having stock of reasonably up-to-date gear to deliver to proxy forces should need arise
    runaway
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    Post  runaway on Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:34 pm

    I very much doubt this, some years ago it was reported the T62 was withdrawn from inventory and would not be used any more.
    Its an ancient vehicle with bad combat record from real wars, -67 and -73.
    They should have thousands T-72 which would be a much better choise for reservunites. Not only ammo wise and upgrading potential, but also for spare parts and crews mostly already trained on T-72.

    For a reservtank vs guerilla and border patrols the T55 would be a much better choise, this tank is a succes story and was manufactored many years after T62 production ceased.

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:06 pm

    Three years ago Russia offered to foreign customers upgrade and modernisation packages for both the T-55 and the T-62.

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/russia_offers_upgrade_of_ageing_t-55_and_t-62_tanks_to_foreign_customers_tass_52704163.html


    Maybe they want to piggyback on it for the creation of cheap reserve tanks with export potential to third world countries.

    Afterall disposing of a tank is not cheap either.

    And they can have something ready to supply countries that they need to replace war losses (e.g. Syria, Donbass, Venezuela).

    The T-72 in reserve have instead a much hiigher potential, as most of them can be upgraded to be a modern T-72B3M Main Battle Tank or BMPT "Terminator" (Tank Support Fighting Vehicle).
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:17 am

    The fact that they are developing new ammo for the vehicles suggests to me that perhaps they have plans to export them to countries that don't need much more expensive vehicles... they made enormous numbers of T-54/55 vehicles but not so many T-62s and they weren't so widely sold, but their armour was no worse and their gun was actually rather better than the older tank... their biggest problem really was that they were not an enormous leap ahead of the T-55 like the T-64 and T-72 were with much better armour and much better equipment and much better guns...

    With new reactive armour and a new APS system to stop RPGs a T-62 would be fine even today on a battlefield like Libya or Syria in the sense that nothing on those battlefields are invincible anyway and this would probably be about as expensive as the thermal sights you want to fit it with.

    It uses one piece ammo... it would be interesting to adapt the autoloader of the T-72 to load 115mm smoothbore rounds and fit it to a T-62 tank so it could have a three man crew and automated ammo handling systems...

    Would also be interesting to fully automate the systems in a T-62 to allow it to be used on a battlefield as a robot tank with a remote weapon station 12.7mm HMG, and of course an auto loading 115mm gun... if you completely remove the crew you could go with some sort of dual feed system loading HE Frag rounds and HEAT rounds into the main gun and of course the coaxial MG for other targets... An internal fire suppression system could be very effective... you could fill the internal space with nitrogen so nothing would catch fire if penetrated because of a lack of oxygen... to destroy the vehicle you would need to penetrate the armour and hit main calibre ammo because nothing else inside the tank should burn in a nitrogen environment... even the fuel shouldn't burn...
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:54 pm

    Want to know how to kill '2' birds with '1' stone? Question 1: What to do with all the T-62's in storage (1800+)? Question 2: How to compensate for Uran-9's limited range?

    Solution: Fit the Uran-9's turret on the T-62's chassis. Replace the crew space with a new more modern (fuel efficient perhaps diesel/electric hybrid) engine, auto-loader ammo storage, and a large internal fuel cell (the old T-62 was capable of 650 km range with two additional 200 liter fuel tanks). Add modern Applique armor (ERA, NERA), APS & PPS defense suite.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:58 am

    Not a bad idea...

    Of course the capacity of the T-62 could allow an extra heavy weapon... something like an 82mm automatic mortar like the Vasilek... change the 4 round clip feed to a belt feed... you could probably fit 1,000 rounds of 30mm cannon shells and perhaps 2-300 82mm mortar bombs in the turret and below the turret ring...

    The high velocity 30mm rounds would be good against a range of targets, while the low velocity 82mm rounds are a widely used standard round that is relatively cheap and can be lobbed over front cover or small hills in hilly terrain to hit targets the 30mm weapon could not reach.

    In fact perhaps replace the 82mm auto mortar with an extended barrel with the new 57mm grenade launcher for commonality with new units, and long barrel 82mm auto mortar for older units...

    Its own UAV to spot targets and it would be awesome... in fact a tethered UAV that can climb up and spot targets while being powered by the vehicle... it could provide a data link back to the controllers to deal with the datalink range issue in built up areas. A radar and thermal sight would allow targets to be detected at extended ranges and the right armament to engage a range of targets... perhaps those new small ATGMs shown in retractable mounts on IFVs might have the EO/IIR seekers of those new big 25+km range missiles the Mi-28NM carry... the IIR signature of the target from the UAV would be all it needed for engaging targets out of line of sight of the vehicle carrying the missiles...
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:01 pm

    Why would you want to spend money making the T-62 into a unmanned vehicle or creating some new automated systems for it?
    Russia has thousands of T-72As and T-72Bs in storage. In the early 2000s it already created a prototype remote-controlled T-72 robot tank. It's a considerably more suitable vehicle for that kind of thing.

    You could promote the idea of replacing the T-62's turret with something else, sure. Or converting it into an engineering, firefighting vehicle or whatever. But the news is not about that.

    As for where to put T-62s - well they can be given a cheap upgrade and then handed over to Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Afghanistan and Tajikistan as neccessary. AFAIK all other Russian allies and friendly bordering countries are T-64 or T-72 based.
    Using them for the military doesn't make sense - they have enough tanks as it is and more modern ones. The FSB border guards are too much of a mobile, light force - they have their Mi-35s for when they need extra firepower. This leaves the Rosgvardia, which I presume is what's being refered to with the nomer 'territorial defence units'. The T-62 could be useful as firesupport. But again same problem, why not just use T-72s instead?
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:54 am

    T-62s are cheaper and more expendable?

    Lighter and easier to maintain.

    One piece ammo could be adapted to an autoloader like the one fitted to the BMP-3 or something similar perhaps to eliminate the need for the extra crewman and free up some space in the turret?

    Could replace the main gun for a smoothbore 100mm gun from the MT-12 towed gun with an autoloader perhaps?

    Of course I agree that removing it from the inventory removes the 115mm smoothbore gun which makes logistics simpler and cheaper because you can convert production facilities and development facilities from 115mm to all working on 125mm for which all tanks in service will benefit.

    Also it means stores of 115mm rounds can be used up or sold off.

    It all depends on what they want these vehicles for... if it is because they are there then there are T-72s there too...

    In a few years time there will be all sorts of different tank sizes from light wheeled, medium wheeled, medium tracked, and heavy tracked, as well as Sprut variants too.

    Sometimes think a BMP-3 with new ERA and rail armour could do the same job as a tank in some areas while being amphibious and potentially having troops or extra ammo in the back.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:36 am

    Of course I agree that removing it from the inventory removes the 115mm smoothbore gun which makes logistics simpler and cheaper because you can convert production facilities and development facilities from 115mm to all working on 125mm for which all tanks in service will benefit.

    Modern machinery can make 115 and 125 mm ammo on a same production line. Not really an issue.

    Logistic is also not an issue. T-62 are planed to be used inside russia against enemy invader. Army logistic can be used for t-72/90... while civilian patriots can be used for logistic of t-62 and with civilian trucks. Again not an issue.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:45 am

    The 125mm round is a two piece round that results in a small metal stub after firing, which is rather different from the one piece 115mm brass case round... at the very least they will be using totally different propellant types because the 125mm propellent in a combustible cardboard case needs to be solid and with an ability to take some handling abuse... the 115mm propellent is completely encased in its shell and does not even need to be solid.

    During WWII there were often problems with war time... people get called up who are not military minded at all but need to know that 7.62x38R ammunition and 7.62x25mm ammunition and 7.62x54mmR ammo are each different and different units need different ammo.

    Send a couple of thousand rounds of 7.62x38R ammo to a force and they will think this will last for ever in their officers revolvers because they only take 7 rounds at a time.

    Send a couple of thousand rounds of 7.62x54mmR ammo to the same unit and their machine guns can use those up in a couple of minutes... and send a couple of thousand rounds of 7.62x25mm ammo to a unit and it might be the same as above... the pistol armed officers might think it is good, but the Mosin rifle armed majority might think it is a problem.... of course any soldiers with PPSh SMGs will think it is good... but they need more.

    Different units will have a different ratio of weapons and therefore require different quantities of different ammo types.

    It is the same with artillery... imagine a load of 122mm artillery shells arriving at a Grad unit, or Grad rockets arriving at a D-30 122mm gun regiment...

    And war time is the time most likely for it to happen and the last place you need it to happen.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:51 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Why would you want to spend money making the T-62 into a unmanned vehicle or creating some new automated systems for it?
    Russia has thousands of T-72As and T-72Bs in storage. In the early 2000s it already created a prototype remote-controlled T-72 robot tank. It's a considerably more suitable vehicle for that kind of thing.

    You could promote the idea of replacing the T-62's turret with something else, sure. Or converting it into an engineering, firefighting vehicle or whatever. But the news is not about that.

    As for where to put T-62s - well they can be given a cheap upgrade and then handed over to Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Afghanistan and Tajikistan as neccessary. AFAIK all other Russian allies and friendly bordering countries are T-64 or T-72 based.
    Using them for the military doesn't make sense - they have enough tanks as it is and more modern ones. The FSB border guards are too much of a mobile, light force - they have their Mi-35s for when they need extra firepower. This leaves the Rosgvardia, which I presume is what's being refered to with the nomer 'territorial defence units'. The T-62 could be useful as firesupport. But again same problem, why not just use T-72s instead?

    I'm not opposed to T-72s robotization (Shoigu just visited a plant where they're being developed), I actually appreciate them. But my suggestion was a quick fix, to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Uran-9's already developed turret placed on the T-62s that are already plentiful (+1,600 in storage). The large count of vehicles lends to experimental creativity. Drop the turret on a base vehicle with good range (a modern engine with large fuel cells could get it 1000km range), a quick fix for Uran-9's limited range, which could be developed in under 2 years. Besides there's huge export potential for developing nations.

    I also feel like the modernization potential is far higher for the remaining T-72s, so I think they should keep the remaining ones manned until they know for certain that they are at their very end. The new modernization make it seem like they can perform near T-90MS level, especially with it's new net-centricity. The US Army is planning on modernizing Abrams MBTs in to the 2050s. Hell slapping T-14's developments on (the T-72s) would make them better than any Western MBT for years to come.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:07 am

    The fact that they said they are developing updated 115mm ammo is interesting... perhaps they have plans for a tank that can be exported to countries on a serious budget that don't need a T-72 level tank or a 125mm main gun level of gun power.

    With improved ammo the 115mm gun does have potential to become a rather potent smaller round and its one piece construction would make an autoloader interesting as well... especially if they were open to a turret bustle autoloader for high velocity rounds and underfloor for HE and HEAT.

    I suspect they are talking about T-62s with the addon armour and not basic T-62s, that will have further armour like ERA or NERA, plus rails, and of course an APS system, which is going to make them rather better than a vanilla T-62 right off the bat without making them super expensive... the more APS systems they deploy the cheaper they will become and with experience they will become much more mature experienced and therefore effective systems...

    With ceramic armour upgrades and NERA they might be able to reduce the weight to something close to a WWII T-34... the standard T-62 was only about 36 tons... the T-34 was 26 tons or thereabouts...

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