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    2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

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    eehnie

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  eehnie on Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:53 pm

    MonkeymodelBananaRepublic wrote:From the discussion i can see the clear use and niche role the 2s4 has. Though i am not sure what niche role the 2s7 has - i know it might be clear to others but its not so in my mind.

    I mean if it can fire 90-100km .... so can mrls
    If it can deliver large shell 203mm so do mrls 220mm and 300mm

    Im not clear on what 2s7 niche role is

    I have read thay they are being used in large number by ukraine - does anyone have any information on their combat  performance in that conflict so far?

    How is the 2s4 and m240 doing in syria?

    Replacing 2s7 by 2s35 or 2s19 in your comment, the sense would not change. Under this argument the entire military concept of artillery would be questioned. The answer to your question is in the differences between the mrls systems and the traditional artillery.

    The performance of the 2S7 in the war of Ukraine seems positive. The loses of these systems have bee smaller than in other cases.

    About the 2S4 M-240 are present in very low amounts in Syria. Surely doing well too.

    Surely both experiences are related with the recent increasing of the numbers of 2S4 and 2S7 in active service in Russia.
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    eehnie

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  eehnie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:46 am

    I expect to see new weapons to replace the 2S4 and the 2S7 based on the armata platform.

    In fact I expect 3, 2 of 203mm and one of 240mm:

    - 240mm: To replace the 2S4, I would expect a weapon that can combine direct and indirect fire in the mortar style. A weapon in line with the phylosophy of the weapon of 120mm.
    - 203mm: A new weapon of 203mm following the same phylosophy.
    - 203mm: To replace the 2S7, I would expect a weapon for long range direct fire. As long as possible.

    Of course following the current standards on protection of the crew, authomatic internal load,...
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:03 am

    Indirect fire yes on all systems but direct fire? ?? The recoil would be hideous and is needed? and even auto load would still be relatively slow but quicker than current system. But these systems don't need to be quick at reloading if guided munitions are used 1-2 hits is enough to destroy target. I doubt Russia would spend huge amounts on completely new system designed on armata as there is no requirement I agree if an enclosed auto load system which would give crew protection while loading took place and guided munitions this is all that is required and still using current chassis. Yes these systems are for a certain niche but needed. Not sure on costs but possibly a guided shell of either is cheaper than guided rocket of mlrs but I could be wrong. And would both rocket and shell produce same effect? ??? But must be a reason why Russia has kept them in service especially when some smerch are in reserve/storage.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:08 am

    I think the increased range and accuracy of 120mm and 152mm rounds will mean they will continue to be developed and will be the normal widely used calibres... this is no huge jump in the dark as the Soviet military settled on 120mm mortars and 152mm and 203mm guns during WWII.

    the new weapons are much more accurate, much longer ranged, and still effective, if not more so today.

    They might experiment with a 240mm and a 203mm Armata vehicle but I suspect the standard Armata units will start with 125mm tank guns and 120mm gun/mortars and 152mm artillery.

    In time perhaps they might eliminate the 125mm calibre and replace it with a 152mm calibre tank gun, but there is currently no hurry as most potential opponents can still be engaged effectively with 125mm rounds... the sooner they start adopting the 152mm gun the sooner NATO goes for a new improved tank design... their 152mm tank gun is pretty much ready but upgrading the 125 is easier and cheaper and leaves a next step available when needed.

    I think they will just continue with 2S4 and 2S7 in reserve for those situations when larger calibre weapons are needed and just upgrade the ammo so if a larger calibre Armata is needed it will have ready to use quality ammo.

    From the discussion i can see the clear use and niche role the 2s4 has. Though i am not sure what niche role the 2s7 has - i know it might be clear to others but its not so in my mind.

    I mean if it can fire 90-100km .... so can mrls
    If it can deliver large shell 203mm so do mrls 220mm and 300mm

    Im not clear on what 2s7 niche role is

    Don't fixate on max range as the only useful number.

    For many targets a 40kg projectile is enough to get the job done, but there are occasions when it is not, and two impacts of 40kg shells does not equal the impact of one 80kg projectile.

    The Pion fires 110kg projectiles.

    The Tulip is even more powerful but over much shorter ranges... the problem with most artillery rounds is that they come from what would be called guns... the need for range means they have rather higher velocity than similar weapons from WWI and WWII. The higher velocity and range means when fired at shorter range they need to be lofted high into the air... which reduces accuracy because they spend a lot of time in flight or they are more direct fired at the target which means half the shell fragments go into the ground and the other half go into the sky.

    In comparison a 130kg 240mm mortar bomb that lands near vertically on the target sprays its fragments in a nice even pattern around the point of impact... look at artillery shells and you will notice it is the long sidewalls that contain all the fragments that actually kill people... a near vertical impact means most efficient use of propellant and fragments.

    Blast kills only to fairly short ranges but heavy fragments extend that kill range to 10-20 times the blast radius... up to 100m in some cases, but a 152mm shell coming in at an angle wont... most fragments will go into the ground or into the air and it will be blast radius that kills... maybe 10-20m... which is rubbish performance.


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    Benya

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Benya on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:57 am

    Russian heavy artillery brigade will hold unique live-fire exercise in northwest region of Russia

    A heavy artillery brigade based in the Tambov Region in central Russia will hold a unique live-firing exercise at the Luzhsky training range in the Leningrad Region in northwest Russia for the first time, the Russian Western Military District’s press office said.


    "The servicemen performed a combined march to cover a distance of more than 1,100 kilometers [683 miles]. During the march, they practiced countering a simulated enemy’s commandos, crossing notionally contaminated areas with the use of individual protective gear and loading and unloading military hardware," the press office said. "During the tactical exercise, the crews of 240mm Tyulpan self-propelled mortars will attack the simulated enemy’s key facilities," the press office added.

    While accomplishing the mission, the servicemen will stealthily move to their firing positions, conduct reconnaissance with the use of an unmanned aerial vehicle and fire their mortars against targets simulating the enemy’s buried command posts, air defense missile system control centers and unmanned aerial vehicles at a distance of up to 20 kilometers (12 miles). The live-firing exercise will involve about 100 servicemen and up to 30 items of military hardware.

    Arrow https://www.armyrecognition.com/august_2017_global_defense_security_news_industry/russian_heavy_artillery_brigade_live-fire_exercise_81008174.html



    Nice thumbsup . I think that having more such units would be great. In conflicts – especially in low intensity ones – heavy artillery pieces like the 2S7 Pion/Malka and the 2S4 Tyulpan would provide air strike-like firepower, albeit at a limited range, but at a fraction of its cost. Guided shells would make them even more effective.

    A little bit off-topic  Off Topic , but I think that a handful of these systems could be supplied to Syria to take out fortified positions of ISIS and rebels.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:16 pm

    Syrian army already uses Tulpan and 160mm mortar and 180mm gun. But problem is we don't get hear about them being used
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    Benya

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Benya on Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:09 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Syrian army already uses Tulpan and 160mm mortar and 180mm gun. But problem is we don't get hear about them being used

    I looked it up, and the last reports of its use are from last year.
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    franco

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  franco on Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:23 pm

    The talk has been that a battalion of each are being put into operations in each of the 4 Regional Commands but you only hear or see the 2S4 in the news other then the 2S7 from Tambov which was the original and only unit left in the Reformed Army.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:09 am

    These are powerful and very capable weapons, but like anything there are problems.


    They are very heavy weapons, though their vehicle mounts negates this to a large degree, the point remains if the vehicle breaks down and you need to move you wont be able to take these weapons with you.

    They are better for sieges than mobile warfare and the ammo they use is big and bulky and not that easy to handle and is not as widely available on every front in every area.

    Even assuming you have a hard core of enemy forces trapped in a pocket you need to be very sure of your targeting as each shell could flatten more than just a single building... we are talking small aircraft bomb sized rounds for each shot... taking out the enemy one room at a time is not an option with these weapons.

    With laser guided rounds however penetrating a building to destroy troops in the basement becomes a very real and very effective option...

    In terms of dealing with fortifications from a distance the 203mm calibre weapons will reduce the effectiveness of bunkers and trench lines and fortified positions from a great distance... so in preparation for an attack on an enemy strong point or just to soften an enemy position it would be a very powerful and capable weapon.

    In artillery it is the first few rounds that really count because after a minute or so everyone who survived the first rounds has probably found some cover and has become hard as hell to deal with...


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