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    2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

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    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:25 am

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK they are withdrawing the 100mm rifled tank gun calibre with the T-54/55 and the 115mm smoothbore with the T-62, to leave the 125mm smoothbore calibre as the only remaining tank calibre till the new 15xmm calibre is needed.

    With regard to artillery calibres in terms of guns and gun howitzers the 122mm seems to be getting dropped in favour of the 120mm rifled gun/mortar calibre. The 73mm BMP-1 calibre IFV gun is likely to be dropped but the question remains regarding the whole 30mm + 100mm vs 57mm calibre and also the 14.5mm and 12.7mm calibre vs the 23mm light calibre.

    152mm calibre is assured due to MSTA and coalition, and the replacement of the 122mm with the 120mm suggests the 122mm might be retired.

    Within NATO the 105mm seems to be redundant except for very light very mobile mountain guns and I would expect the same with the 122mm Soviet calibre.

    the 160mm mortar was a rare piece for mountain units mainly so I suspect the 82mm and 120mm will remain standard calibres... perhaps with 240mm as a backup for special use?

    This means in the Army they will be getting rid of at least the 100mm and 115mm tank guns, the 73mm IFV gun and the 122mm artillery gun calibre and all the ammo types they support... though the guided 122mm shells are compatible with 120mm apparently.


    Thanks for the input garry,
    yeah your right about the 122mm being replaced by 120mm mortar, the 2S1 has had some of its barrels replaced with the 120mm mortar system think they call it Chosta.

    on the point about 73mm being dropped and being replaced with 30mm and 100mm, as in the case for the BMP3, and the the 73mm being replaced with 57mm on the PT76. I was under the impression the 23.5mm replaced the 14.5mm.

    I think the 57mm is a pretty decent round to replace systems like the 73mm, but I suppose intil they put into production of the new replacement i.e boomerang etc we will have to wait and see. either way it will be interesting. Its a huge replacement program.

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:22 am

    If the tyulpan and 203mm guns are so useful then the russian military planners must be really half whitted not to even think of developing a replacement by now...

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:44 am

    We need to split the calibres into usage... the 30mm could be replaced as an anti aircraft calibre, but then the 23 x 152mm cannon calibre is still being used too.

    Ideally the 23 x 152mm and 30 x 165mm calibre can be replaced in the anti aircraft role by 57mm calibres using a mix of new rounds including guided anti aircraft.

    In terms of IFV calibres the 73mm and 30mm were used together in the BMP-1 and BMP-2, but now with upgraded models and of course the BMP-3 the 2A42 30mm cannon is replaced by the 2A72 30mm cannon and the 73mm gun replaced by a medium pressure rifled 100mm gun.

    The new main calibre needs to have high penetration to take on 30-35 ton enemy IFVs so a high velocity 57mm gun could be needed to replace the 30mm calibre in the anti armour role, while the 100mm gun could be kept or replaced by the 120mm gun/mortar.

    The 120mm rounds are bigger and heavier but also more effective with a much longer range.

    120mm mortars are already part of a brigade structure so it is not adding 120mm ammo it is removing 100mm ammo.

    The 30mm 30 x 165mm rounds will still be carried by light APCs or they could be replaced by 23 x 115mm weapons.

    This means they could go from BTR-80s with 14.5mm HMGs and BTR-80As with 30mm cannon, and BMP-1 with 73mm, BMP-2 with 30mm, and BMP-3 with 30mm and 100mm plus mortars within the unit with 12omm rounds that they currently use... to a light APC with a 23 x 115mm KPV based HMG, an APC with a 30mm cannon for heavier support, while the APC will have either a 57mm gun for anti IFV use or a combined 120mm and perhaps long barrelled 23mm gun or 30mm gun for infantry support.

    This sort of shift would remove the 73mm and 100mm guns from the inventory and also the 14.5mm calibre too, though it would introduce the 23 x 115mm calibre.

    Against enemy troops the 14.5mm is pretty devastating but individual rounds are generally too powerful. Using 23 x 114mm rounds the HE capacity makes them rather more effective than 14.5mm HE rounds while the increase in calibre should allow APFSDS rounds to be used for impressive penetration performance for such a little round.

    If the tyulpan and 203mm guns are so useful then the russian military planners must be really half whitted not to even think of developing a replacement by now...

    You are thinking in the wrong terms.

    Tulip and Pion are very powerful weapons, but they also have their limitations and problems. They are heavy calibre weapons which means low rate of fire and they are more expensive per vehicle than smaller calibre weapons.

    let me just say that 82mm mortars are very useful weapons, but with 4kg bombs and 4-5km range they have their limits. The 120mm mortars need a vehicle to be mobile which makes them more expensive... But it also makes them more mobile... and their 16kg HE bombs are rather more effective than the 4kg 82mm bombs.
    Fighting on open flat terrain a howitzer is more mobile (with its vehicle) and a gun has more range, but in places like forests or built up areas or mountains the near vertical fall of the mortar makes them much more useful and a really heavy shell like the 130kg bomb of the Tulip or 110kg shell of the Pion can have more effect than rather more shells from lighter weapons.

    Russia doesn't need these heavy weapons in all its artillery units, but for some units they make a lot of sense... and there is no point in replacing them when an upgrade can make them better in their niche role than standard weapons.


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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:14 am

    The problem is that your proposed upgrade isn't developed in any way in russia. All weapons have advantages and disadvantages. That's why its really stupid to replace all heavy artillery and mortars, once they become obsolete, with a single 152mm gun.

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:38 am


    some questions..



    1)IS Russia have plans to replace 2S7M PION ?

     with something bigger and more deadly and or at the very least
    same power but with bigger range and better mobilization and rate of fire.


    2) and why not many discussing the Koalition artillery , isn't that supposed to be the next thing to replace
    2S19 MSTA-S Russia self propelled main artillery ?  When Koalition is supposed to enter service?

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:35 am

    Armed Forces of Ukraine actively restore self-propelled artillery 2S7 Pion. Current repair overhaul with elements of individual components (recoil device, hydraulic system, loading mechanism) 203-mm self-propelled guns must implement State Enterprise "Shepetovsky Repair Plant" and remzavod in Rivne.

    2S7 Pion - a self-propelled howitzer, designed to suppress the rear, the destruction of critical facilities and offensive nuclear weapons in tactical depth at a distance of 47 km. SAU Peony notable for the fact that can fire nuclear warheads.

    http://news.liga.net/video/politics/3999522-ukraina_vozvrashchaet_na_vooruzhenie_moshchneyshie_sau_pion_video.htm

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:46 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:Armed Forces of Ukraine actively restore self-propelled artillery 2S7 Pion. Current repair overhaul with elements of individual components (recoil device, hydraulic system, loading mechanism) 203-mm self-propelled guns must implement State Enterprise "Shepetovsky Repair Plant" and remzavod in Rivne.

    2S7 Pion - a self-propelled howitzer, designed to suppress the rear, the destruction of critical facilities and offensive nuclear weapons in tactical depth at a distance of 47 km. SAU Peony notable for the fact that can fire nuclear warheads.

    http://news.liga.net/video/politics/3999522-ukraina_vozvrashchaet_na_vooruzhenie_moshchneyshie_sau_pion_video.htm

    i wouldnt fire a nuclear warhead in such a close distance to me

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Regular on Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:08 am

    Why? It's pretty big distance for relatively low yield nuke.

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:11 am

    some questions..



    1)IS Russia have plans to replace 2S7M PION ?

    with something bigger and more deadly and or at the very least
    same power but with bigger range and better mobilization and rate of fire.


    2) and why not many discussing the Koalition artillery , isn't that supposed to be the next thing to replace
    2S19 MSTA-S Russia self propelled main artillery ? When Koalition is supposed to enter service?

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:16 am

    Vann7 wrote:some questions..



    1)IS Russia have plans to replace 2S7M PION ?

    with something bigger and more deadly and or at the very least
    same power but with bigger range and better mobilization and rate of fire.


    2) and why not many discussing the Koalition artillery , isn't that supposed to be the next thing to replace
    2S19 MSTA-S Russia self propelled main artillery ?  When Koalition is supposed to enter service?

    i think Msta-S isnt so old system to be withdrawn when Koalition enter service. There are other far more obsolete systems to be withdrawn, 2s1, 2s4, 2s7..

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:04 am

    I have heard of no plans to replace Pion or Tulip and I suspect they will be kept in reserve for some time but eventually withdrawn and not replaced.

    the future will likely be with smaller lighter calibres that use precision rather than heavy payload together with extended range to fill the gap left by the heavier weapons.

    I suspect in a few situations the heavier weapons might be useful like in mountain warfare, but most of the time it will likely be a bit like comparing the Soviet army with the German army of WWII... the latter had enormous rail guns, but the former just had a lot of moderate calibre weapons... ie 122mm and 152mm guns... it turned out more was more effective.

    with something bigger and more deadly and or at the very least
    same power but with bigger range and better mobilization and rate of fire.

    Up to 90km now and likely 120km in the near future they have Smerch... and up to 400km they have Iskander.

    2) and why not many discussing the Koalition artillery , isn't that supposed to be the next thing to replace
    2S19 MSTA-S Russia self propelled main artillery ? When Koalition is supposed to enter service?

    No new information to discuss...


    i think Msta-S isnt so old system to be withdrawn when Koalition enter service. There are other far more obsolete systems to be withdrawn, 2s1, 2s4, 2s7..

    Agree, though 2S1 is already being replaced with a 120mm rifled gun/mortar in the form of the 2S34 Hosta. There are so many vehicles and spare parts it should remain operational for some time. The other artillery vehicles were made in much smaller numbers and can be either withdrawn and scrapped or put in reserve.


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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  eehnie on Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:31 pm

    George1 wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:some questions..



    1)IS Russia have plans to replace 2S7M PION ?

    with something bigger and more deadly and or at the very least
    same power but with bigger range and better mobilization and rate of fire.


    2) and why not many discussing the Koalition artillery , isn't that supposed to be the next thing to replace
    2S19 MSTA-S Russia self propelled main artillery ?  When Koalition is supposed to enter service?

    i think Msta-S isnt so old system to be withdrawn when Koalition enter service. There are other far more obsolete systems to be withdrawn, 2s1, 2s4, 2s7..

    Still looking at the recent war experience in the Donbass, it seems not to me that the mobile artillery, rocket and missile systems are looking obsolete. Even the oldest of them like the 2s1 and the BM-21 are performing well. Then I do not think there is room for decommissions.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:32 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:28 pm

    George1 wrote:
    i wouldnt fire a nuclear warhead in such a close distance to me

    The Pion fired 1kT mini nukes, operational tactical nukes at 40km distance from your Pion it is similiar to launching 1MT at a target 1000km away. It is safe, it would take days or weeks to get anykind of radioactivity at your position and it would be very low (non dangerous).

    Tactical nukes depending if you can see the mushroom or not, they are not really that dangerous to you. Tactical nukes are only used against primary military or very important infrastructure of relative small size. Meaning if you are not living next to a military base you are most probably safe from intial blast and have usually enough time to evacuate. Tactical nukes are a "non" danger for civilians. Unlike "regular warfare" such weapons are used with very high priority to actually hit their targets, not some cowboy soldier that wants to shoot and cheer for killing just anything like we have seen so many times.

    Strategic weapons are the danger, however at the same time non danger because no one will use them, MAD still exists.


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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:18 pm

    Reminds me of the Daniel Boone. It was a tripod launched rocket much like a TOW missile launcher but it was not guided... it was a ballistic missile with a range of 2km.

    Instructions for use were critical... before you fired the weapon you dug a slit trench perpendicular to the line of fire, because when you fired the weapon you had to jump into the trench and take cover because the blast radius of the nuclear warhead was greater than the maximum range of the rocket....

    I am not joking.

    It was supposed to be a last ditch weapon to stop an armoured assault in Europe...


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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:59 pm

    Sounds like the Davy Crockett nuke launcher which was an oversized Panzerfaust.

    Davy Crockett Nuke Launcher

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:27 pm

    yes, that is the one... thank you Werewolf...

    Still find it hilarious that someone developed a rocket whose blast radius is greater than its maximum flight range.... puts the MAD in Mutually Assured Destruction... Twisted Evil


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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:yes, that is the one... thank you Werewolf...

    Still find it hilarious that someone developed a rocket whose blast radius is greater than its maximum flight range.... puts the MAD in Mutually Assured Destruction...  Twisted Evil

    True that. Laughing

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:47 am

    In every NATO infantry guide book/training brochure etc that i layed hands on had mortars classified as light/medium/heavy/fkn_Russians_and_their_Tulpan. One infantry guide i was reading (in english, apparently given away in big numbers to soldiers in NATO) was explaining penetrating power of mortars in urban warfare in case it hits the roof of the building and now how many floors it can go though and where you are supposed to hide in case of mortar strike etc. For Tulpan it was something of these lines: "Hide in fkn basement since its shell can penetrate up to 4 floors".

    So if NATO guides from mid 90s consider it as very unpleasant experience i dont see the reason of not modernising it and implementing some type of cheap smart ammunition, i guess GPS/Glonass guided one would be cheapest solution. It has alot better performance in some areas than 155mm shell, especially in amount of explosive being carried, and its guided munition would be alot cheaper than howtizer shells, so imo it still has its place in urban warfare, sieges and low intensity warfare. Some revolver type loading system could be set for it most likely to greatly increase its rate of fire.

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:00 pm

    The thing with the heavy mortars is their low rate of fire and higher cost per shot.

    With guided shells of course the low rate of fire and higher cost per shot is no longer a problem.

    I suspect the main problem would be finding a target heavy enough to warrant 130kg HE mortar shells.

    Most battlefield targets would be vapourised by such a shell.

    I suspect if some sort of autoloading system could be arranged for it then instead of having six vehicles per unit you might get away with a bare minimum of two vehicles able to deliver hell... this would save costs and in terms of HE fire power delivered even one bomb per minute would allow significant impact on the target.

    It would still be a very specialist weapon, though if they ever had to go back into Afghanistan or faced similar mountain combat in one of the other 'stans these would be excellent weapons... of course the steeper trajectory of the 240mm weapon would be more useful than the shallower 203mm round.


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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  franco on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:30 pm

    Militarov wrote:In every NATO infantry guide book/training brochure etc that i layed hands on had mortars classified as light/medium/heavy/fkn_Russians_and_their_Tulpan. One infantry guide i was reading (in english, apparently given away in big numbers to soldiers in NATO) was explaining penetrating power of mortars in urban warfare in case it hits the roof of the building and now how many floors it can go though and where you are supposed to hide in case of mortar strike etc. For Tulpan it was something of these lines: "Hide in fkn basement since its shell can penetrate up to 4 floors".

    So if NATO guides from mid 90s consider it as very unpleasant experience i dont see the reason of not modernising it and implementing some type of cheap smart ammunition, i guess GPS/Glonass guided one would be cheapest solution. It has alot better performance in some areas than 155mm shell, especially in amount of explosive being carried, and its guided munition would be alot cheaper than howtizer shells, so imo it still has its place in urban warfare, sieges and low intensity warfare. Some revolver type loading system could be set for it most likely to greatly increase its rate of fire.

    The Russian Army maintains 1 battalion of these with 8 pieces in Tambov. Specialized weapon kept for possible Urban warfare use. Short range is a major drawback as is logistics.

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:37 pm

    franco wrote:
    Militarov wrote:In every NATO infantry guide book/training brochure etc that i layed hands on had mortars classified as light/medium/heavy/fkn_Russians_and_their_Tulpan. One infantry guide i was reading (in english, apparently given away in big numbers to soldiers in NATO) was explaining penetrating power of mortars in urban warfare in case it hits the roof of the building and now how many floors it can go though and where you are supposed to hide in case of mortar strike etc. For Tulpan it was something of these lines: "Hide in fkn basement since its shell can penetrate up to 4 floors".

    So if NATO guides from mid 90s consider it as very unpleasant experience i dont see the reason of not modernising it and implementing some type of cheap smart ammunition, i guess GPS/Glonass guided one would be cheapest solution. It has alot better performance in some areas than 155mm shell, especially in amount of explosive being carried, and its guided munition would be alot cheaper than howtizer shells, so imo it still has its place in urban warfare, sieges and low intensity warfare. Some revolver type loading system could be set for it most likely to greatly increase its rate of fire.

    The Russian Army maintains 1 battalion of these with 8 pieces in Tambov. Specialized weapon kept for possible Urban warfare use. Short range is a major drawback as is logistics.

    Actually imo biggest drawback atm is painfully low rate of fire, and well yeah, logistics ofc due to specific ammo type. But if they were to redesign them abit increase rate of fire, add smart ammunition, maybe increase mobility on more powerful tracked platform etc, it could still be an exceptional asset.

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:54 pm

    Lack of range is an issue, but these weapons wont be standard artillery used everywhere... this is the sort of heavy weight weapon you bring up when you find the enemy has really dug in deep and has sand bags and concrete everywhere and are really mindset to fight it out.

    You know... against Scots, Finns, Serbs, Chechens, Vietnamese type hard core enemies (note I mention these groups not because they are potential recipients, but because they show the sort of never give up type mentality...)

    For the vast majority of the targets the 70km range Coalition with guided shells can generally do the job, but with a heavily fortified building the near vertical shells of the 240mm mortar and the enormous power of the 120kg projectiles... they would be devastating in urban areas and mountains.

    A higher velocity weapon like Coalition has a higher muzzle velocity and much longer range but at longer range the trajectory will not be very steep so landing a shell between two tall buildings would be impossible and targets in the open on the ground between two tall buildings would actually be very safe.

    With the 240mm with a near vertical trajectory they would not be safe...

    The rate of fire of one shell per minute is not that bad for the Tulip... especially when there will be 6-8 vehicles in each unit so up to 960kg of HE projectiles landing at once would be rather devastating... especially with the accuracy of guided shells.

    Modern technology in aiming and guided shells along with potential improvements in the base vehicle in loading means to me that these could be devastating weapons for very specific uses, but would be rather overkill for most units.

    they are always fun to watch though... I have seen a few videos on youtube showing these weapons being loaded and fired... very impressive.


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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  Militarov on Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:08 am

    GarryB wrote:Lack of range is an issue, but these weapons wont be standard artillery used everywhere... this is the sort of heavy weight weapon you bring up when you find the enemy has really dug in deep and has sand bags and concrete everywhere and are really mindset to fight it out.

    You know... against Scots, Finns, Serbs, Chechens, Vietnamese type hard core enemies (note I mention these groups not because they are potential recipients, but because they show the sort of never give up type mentality...)

    For the vast majority of the targets the 70km range Coalition with guided shells can generally do the job, but with a heavily fortified building the near vertical shells of the 240mm mortar and the enormous power of the 120kg projectiles... they would be devastating in urban areas and mountains.

    A higher velocity weapon like Coalition has a higher muzzle velocity and much longer range but at longer range the trajectory will not be very steep so landing a shell between two tall buildings would be impossible and targets in the open on the ground between two tall buildings would actually be very safe.

    With the 240mm with a near vertical trajectory they would not be safe...

    The rate of fire of one shell per minute is not that bad for the Tulip... especially when there will be 6-8 vehicles in each unit so up to 960kg of HE projectiles landing at once would be rather devastating... especially with the accuracy of guided shells.

    Modern technology in aiming and guided shells along with potential improvements in the base vehicle in loading means to me that these could be devastating weapons for very specific uses, but would be rather overkill for most units.

    they are always fun to watch though... I have seen a few videos on youtube showing these weapons being loaded and fired... very impressive.

    Well i guess thats was their original role urban warfare aganist fortified enemy. Funny how you mention Serbs there Smile. Generally speaking conventional artillery proved quite ineffective in urban warfare, i guess that is the reason why this super heavy mortar exists and why thermobaric warheads came to exist.

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:08 am

    Eastern Military district units armed with 2S7 Pion. So these pieces are from stored capacity probably not new of course

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=3&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151203/1334820325.html&usg=ALkJrhjjmB-6EaVHaf6bW64UKCVHALKXVA


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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

    Post  franco on Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:11 pm

    George1 wrote:Eastern Military district units armed with 2S7 Pion. So these pieces are from stored capacity probably not new of course

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=3&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151203/1334820325.html&usg=ALkJrhjjmB-6EaVHaf6bW64UKCVHALKXVA

    There was a story last month that they also got a 2S4 unit of 240mm SP Mortar's. Don't know if the single units of each staged in Tambov were transferred East or second units was formed. There were several hundred of each in the reserve.

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    Re: 2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

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