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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:16 am

    OK, looks like the engine issue wasn't resolved at all, and there's no mention of any more investment into this project, a pity.
    Truly a missed opportunity.

    People can scream old design all they like, if she works, she works, that's all there is to it.

    I wonder what Yantar is going to making next?
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:57 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:OK, looks like the engine issue wasn't resolved at all, and there's no mention of any more investment into this project, a pity.
    Truly a missed opportunity.

    People can scream old design all they like, if she works, she works, that's all there is to it.

    I wonder what Yantar is going to making next?
    saturn never planned to replace all the older engines previously made in the ukraine (also because it would not make any sense). Only three modern gas turbine engine models, covering most of the navy needs for new ships.

    The problem is not just the design. All the sensors, electronic, guidance systems for weapons, etc are at least a generation older compared to gorshkov.
    They spent so much time finally fixing gorshkov...

    Yantar could build additional grigorovic for export, if ukraine provide the engines,
    or additional LSTs (improved Ivan Grens),
    or it could start building gorshkov in parallel to Severnaya Verf. They could also build 20386 there, otherwise.
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:46 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:The problem is not just the design. All the sensors, electronic, guidance systems for weapons, etc are at least a generation older compared to gorshkov.
    They spent so much time finally fixing gorshkov...

    Yantar could build additional grigorovic for export, if ukraine provide the engines,
    or additional LSTs (improved Ivan Grens),
    or it could start building gorshkov in parallel to Severnaya Verf. They could also build 20386 there, otherwise.

    I doubt that, all they'd need is the sensors and guidance for the Redut, everything else could stay.

    Considering they already transferred ToT to India, that is simply not happening.
    The other 2 option are more likely.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:55 am

    Isos wrote:...Since the ships are already build and only lack engines and knowing that the next 15 or 20 Gorshkovs will be send primarly to NF and PF, yes they should be happy with them.


    Russia will never get engines for them. Not happening.

    The Ukraine didn't even want to give them for Indian ships until India started squeezing their balls through diplomatic channels.


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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:23 am

    An interesting pic regarding whether there is room for a 2nd UKSK
    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 32 27-7629417-3c14m
    I suspect its a Talwar but there isn't an obvious difference in this bit.
    You can see there is definitely a gap around the UKSK module but looks like its for personnel access for whatever reason thats necessary.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:20 am

    I reply here to PapaDragon comment, as it starting to deviate too much from the other thread (20386).
    Maybe we can open a thread about ASW ships and operations for the Russian navy.

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:(...)
    Anyway, we have already discussed in the forum, but the russian navy will probably benefit from a not too expensive corvette optimised for antisub operations.

    If it is true what they mention in the article about reduts system needs for radar and other systems, it could be worth instead to put in ships smaller then a frigate (or in upgrades of old ships) either the modernised naval tor or shtil (naval buk) systems, maybe in conjunction with kashtan or pantsir gun/missile system.

    In this case they could do a relatively cheaper antisub corvette around 2000 tons based on a simplified 20380/20385 or on an upgraded gepard class since they already mastered the construction of those ship classes.



    Or, if they need a bigger endurance for antisub operation they could think again at the grigorovich class (if they can build them with russian engines) which has double the range and endurance compared with 20380 or gepard class.

    The indians are building a large asw corvette, but, in order to have a decent endurance, they ended up having a ship with a displacement similar to a grigorovich class and the srmament of a grisha class (it is basically a overgrown grisha class with an helicopter).

    There will never again be Grigorevich-class

    It's dead and forgotten

    I don't believe it would make sense to spend money trying to increase the number of UKSK or other major changes (except maybe trying to fit the 36 cells shtil (naval buk) module instead of the 24 cells.

    However if it is possible to adapt it to use the new russian gas turbines (e.g the 14 MW M70FRU), the grigorovic could be a nice ship to export.

    Afterall decent antisub ships are always in need by the navies of many nations, especially if they come in a package of a capable multirole frigate and they are affordable.

    India is buying it, and Vietnam and many other nations were looking at acquiring additional gepard class ships. If Russia continues to offer Gerard class for export, I do not see why not grigorovic.

    Not any nation can afford the equivalent of gorshkov class, especially among Russia's potential customer.  

    And, as we have seen, sometimes Russia itself buys the product that first build only for export, id they realise that it covers a required niche.

    Anyway, talking about ASW, on the smaller side of the  I am also interested to see if Russia want to build a replacement for the Grisha class, maybe a bit bigger in order to be able to host a ASW helicopter.

    (Btw are ASW versions of the Ka-226 possible?, if so maybe a modified karakurt without UKSK, but with a decent sonar, ASW weapons and a Ka-226 sized hangar)

    I know that there is the 20380 that is quite good in ASW operations, but it is a relatively large and expensive multirole ship, so not comparable with the Grisha class
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:05 am


    Gorshkov-class exists and so do engines for it

    It is also superior in every single aspect

    Grigorevich was never anything more than stop-gap solution which turned out to be failure because there weren't any engines for it and never will be again

    Not only do they not have engines for more ships but they also have no replacement for current ones should they ever break down or require replacement

    I doubt these three Grigorevich frigates will be in service for more than 2 decades, probably less

    Any available money should be (and is being) redirected to ships which have desired performance and for which components are available

    Grigorevich is finished as a ship in Russian Navy


    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:16 am

    Grigorovich is essentially a Krivak IV ship modernized. They could make a Krivak V ship using Russian parts instead and since a lot of the other subsystems and Hull and what not are made in Russia as is, it's price won't be that high either.

    But yes, Gorshkov is superior and all its parts are made in Russia.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:40 am

    One of the Talwars is on the way to St Petersburg for Navy Day
    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 32 19-7702945-d-u-hxgxoaatzw9

    And Makarov did a live fire test, successful intercept of a land-based anti-ship missile from Crimea

    What is that missile? Looks like P-500/1000? But I didn't know they had static shore mounts like that.

    Edit: apparently thats 'cliff'/Utes aka Object 100 on the clifftop near Balaclava, fires P-35 missile which is Mach 1.5 predecessor to P-500 etc.
    Facility was very out of order post-Soviet but restored to action in 2017.
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    Post  kumbor on Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:34 am

    hoom wrote:One of the Talwars is on the way to St Petersburg for Navy Day
    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 32 19-7702945-d-u-hxgxoaatzw9

    And Makarov did a live fire test, successful intercept of a land-based anti-ship missile from Crimea

    What is that missile? Looks like P-500/1000? But I didn't know they had static shore mounts like that.

    Edit: apparently thats 'cliff'/Utes aka Object 100 on the clifftop near Balaclava, fires P-35 missile which is Mach 1.5 predecessor to P-500 etc.
    Facility was very out of order post-Soviet but restored to action in 2017.

    Antiquated P-35 in coastal mounting - NATO: SSC-3B "Sepal".
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:24 pm

    Old but still powerful. 1000km range with possibility of nuks warheads. Covers the black sea states and can destroy any military ship operating in the black sea with with one hit, most of them have poor air defence systems.

    They also have some bastion P operating around there, so they will be used in salvos with them.

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:01 pm

    Isos wrote:Old but still powerful. 1000km range with possibility of nuks warheads. Covers the black sea states and can destroy any military ship operating in the black sea with with one hit, most of them have poor air defence systems.

    They also have some bastion P operating around there, so they will be used in salvos with them.

    anyway the missiles do not last forever, so using the old ones for training and interception tests is a.very good and cost effective idea and excellent excercise for the crews.


    Last edited by Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:08 pm

    Plus when they run out of those missile types they could easily upgrade it with a newer missile type... I would assume to get it working they upgraded the mechanisms for raising and lowering the missile tubes... which they would need to do no matter what missile was fitted.

    The other equipment is likely brand new too, so it should be pretty useful for testing and practice and real use if needed... certainly overkill against the Ukrainian navy...
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:13 pm

    I think they said they will upgrade the system with new missiles, most likely oniks. But now that INF is dead, they will go for ground UKSK with the ability to launch kalibr against ground targets at 4000km away.

    Ground based means always deployed as the control room is somewhere in a base always occupied by soldiers.
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    Post  kumbor on Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:44 pm

    Isos wrote:I think they said they will upgrade the system with new missiles, most likely oniks. But now that INF is dead, they will go for ground UKSK with the ability to launch kalibr against ground targets at 4000km away.

    Ground based means always deployed as the control room is somewhere in a base always occupied by soldiers.

    Old launchers for coastal P-35 cannot be used for firing new missiles, having in mind that launcher itself is not "space technology" stuff.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:16 am

    kumbor wrote:
    Old launchers for coastal P-35 cannot be used for firing new missiles, having in mind that launcher itself is not "space technology" stuff.

    If they upgrade it, they will keep the infrastructure but the hardware will be totally changed. Instead of puping up the missile launchers like in the video they will be inside the ground and kalibrs will pup up by themselves like they do from ship vls.

    The good thing of that systems is that there are many launchers spread around the coast and the command room is deap inside the earth protected from missile strikes with a 24/7 availability contrary to truck or ship based system which are not always deployed and doesn't offer the possibility to their crews to work 24/7 inside them.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:27 am

    Old launchers for coastal P-35 cannot be used for firing new missiles, having in mind that launcher itself is not "space technology" stuff.

    I don't think either of us were suggesting they fit new missiles into those old launch tubes.

    They can replace old launchers with new ones on ships and on land...

    I don't think they would put UKSK or UKSK-M launch tubes there... the Americans would jump up and down about 4,000km range cruise missile launchers being there even if they only every put Onyx or something similar there.

    Being a fixed launcher to defend the territory a shorter ranged anti ship system makes a lot more sense really... there is no reason to start an arms race of escalation here... that is a game no one wins except shareholders for missile producing factories.
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