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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:31 pm

    Your metaphor sucks.  Your opinion sucks, and frankly, your posting sucks too and I don't see the point of you being here then besides being an idiot troll.
    I think thats quite an excessive reaction.
    I'm no Russia hater, nor am I a Gorshkov hater & I apologise if my posts were taken as trolly negative.

    The reality of the situation is that

    1. Russia needs modern ships ASAP
    2. Gorshkov was already way late -> build 11356es and now its going to be even later again
    3. 11356 while not the greatest has been proven to be able to be built quickly
    4. after going to the effort of getting domestic production for 11356 engines up & running it seems like a waste to only build engines for 3 of them.


    Its a similar situation to the new Kilos: initially a series built pending Lada class, they got cranked out in good time & with new design still not ready a 2nd series of new Kilos is ordered (I think a 3rd hinted at?).
    Seems a situation ripe for at least another series of 11356.

    Honesroc

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Honesroc on Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:10 pm

    hoom wrote:
    The reality of the situation is that

    1. Russia needs modern ships ASAP
    2. Gorshkov was already way late -> build 11356es and now its going to be even later again
    3. 11356 while not the greatest has been proven to be able to be built quickly
    4. after going to the effort of getting domestic production for 11356 engines up & running it seems like a waste to only build engines for 3 of them.


    I don't know that it's a waste of time.. wouldn't Project 11356 eventually need their engines replaced come mid-life refit? What about the export variant? I always take Russian media with a grain of salt, that said I have seen multiple sources hint that India would be interested in procuring more Tawlar-class vessels.

    Point being, I don't think we're looking at a "three and done" engine build.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:19 am

    If you can't wait 10 years for a ferrari then perhaps you should buy a skoda.

    There is no great urgency for new ships in the Russian navy... they could have thousands of ships in service easily... just mass produce old models they already know how to build.

    Thing is that that fleet would need to be replaced very soon and would not have much value.

    What they are doing is building capable new modern ships and that takes time... if you don't have the patience then find another hobby.

    If there was a 3 year waiting list for a new Ferrari and all of a sudden the makers of the engine suddenly said they would not supply engines and Ferrari had to find new engines and integrate them into the new design but it would take 5 years I am sure many on the waiting list might change their mind and buy a Lada or a Skoda intead... NOT.


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:12 pm

    hoom wrote:[.....

    The reality of the situation is that

    1. Russia needs modern ships ASAP
    2. Gorshkov was already way late -> build 11356es and now its going to be even later again
    3. 11356 while not the greatest has been proven to be able to be built quickly
    4. after going to the effort of getting domestic production for 11356 engines up & running it seems like a waste to only build engines for 3 of them.


    ..........
    -Gorshkov is modern ship. Grigorovich is not. Good enough against Turks but that is it.

    - Only reason lead Gorshkov is not already in service is problem with AA missiles. Had they loaded old ones ship would have been in service already. Speaking of which, what kind of missiles are those? I thought they used standard redut missiles.

    - 11356 also had problem with construction time back when they started to build them for India. You can't use old stuff forever.

    - They will need lot more than 3 engines. Grigorevich will need several replacements over lifetime and there is always possibility certainty of catastrophic malfunction (remember some of those engines are manufactured in Ukraine and they are ticking time bombs, just look at corvette clusterfuck in Baltic fleet). They also need them for several export products and other classes of ships in use.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:42 am

    - Only reason lead Gorshkov is not already in service is problem with AA missiles. Had they loaded old ones ship would have been in service already. Speaking of which, what kind of missiles are those? I thought they used standard redut missiles.

    A recent list I have seen mentions 9M96, 9M96D and 9M100.

    9M96 is the smallest S-400 missile with a range of 40-60km, while the 9M96D is the slightly larger small missile with a range of 120-150km. The 9M100 is Morfei close range IIR guided lock on after launch missile... which might be the one they are having problems with...


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    franco

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  franco on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:08 pm

    MOSCOW, July 29 -. RIA Novosti The fate of the second triple frigates of Project 11356, destined for the Black Sea Fleet is not solved yet, "Rosoboronexport" talks about their delivery abroad, told RIA Novosti on Friday, Vice-President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) on military shipbuilding Igor Ponomarev.

    Previously, "Rosoboronexport", said that India is negotiating the purchase of an additional party and subsequently licensed production frigates of Project 11356 India already has six frigates type Talwar - precursors of the project 11356, designed for export. Indian ships entered service in 2003-2004 and 2012-2013.

    "Ships of the second trio built at the Baltic Shipyard" Yantar "in accordance with the SDO decision on the transfer of these vessels to third countries is not fully accepted Although it is known that such negotiations are conducted.." Rosoboronexport ", - said Ponomarev.

    In total, according to the plans of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, to 2020 for the Black Sea fleet had to do six frigates of Project 11356, but in connection with Ukraine's refusal to supply gas turbine engine construction of the second trio of ships was suspended.


    NOTE: different tale then a couple of weeks back.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:14 pm

    This is getting ridiculous. Either stick with one narritive or the other. If they opt out of them, then get rid of them or simply just wait till the engines are completed. Unless they are thinking they wont be getting any engines anytime soon.

    Then again, Rosoboronexport might be looking to make a buck. This isn't their decision of course.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:17 am

    sepheronx wrote:This is getting ridiculous.  Either stick with one narritive or the other.  If they opt out of them, then get rid of them or simply just wait till the engines are completed.  Unless they are thinking they wont be getting any engines anytime soon.

    Then again, Rosoboronexport might be looking to make a buck.  This isn't their decision of course.

    This crap again?

    Hopefully they will never find a buyer.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:This is getting ridiculous.  Either stick with one narritive or the other.  If they opt out of them, then get rid of them or simply just wait till the engines are completed.  Unless they are thinking they wont be getting any engines anytime soon.

    Then again, Rosoboronexport might be looking to make a buck.  This isn't their decision of course.

    This crap again?

    Hopefully they will never find a buyer.

    Even if they do, they cannot sell the ships without permission from the government.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:19 pm

    Frigate "Admiral Makarov" came to the Baltic Sea for factory sea trials.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2044236.html


    Last edited by George1 on Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Svyatoslavich

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:07 pm

    George1 wrote:Frigate "Admiral Makarov" came to the Baltic Sea φορ factory sea trials.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2044236.html
    Seems someone forgot to change the character setting back to Latin.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:26 pm

    Essen passing close in St Petersburg canal

    Honesroc

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Honesroc on Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:04 pm

    Report: India to Buy 3 Russian Admiral Grigorovich Frigates

    https://news.usni.org/2016/08/04/report-india-buy-3-russian-admiral-grigorovich-frigates
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:37 pm

    Honesroc wrote:Report: India to Buy 3 Russian Admiral Grigorovich Frigates

    https://news.usni.org/2016/08/04/report-india-buy-3-russian-admiral-grigorovich-frigates

    that if true is just a dam shame it also shows the engines aren't a year away and they is indeed big problems going on no one wants to admit.

    wilhelm

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  wilhelm on Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:59 pm

    Of course, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Russia might sell these ships to India...BUT...

    Using the USNI (United States Naval Institute) as a supportive source on anything Russian related, and on this site no less, is a complete waste of time.
    Type "Russia" into the search bar, and you will get all the slanted type of articles aimed at Russia you will need for a lifetime. They don't even pretend to be subtle, or hide it.



    Honesroc

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Honesroc on Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:26 am

    wilhelm wrote:Of course, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Russia might sell these ships to India...BUT...

    Using the USNI (United States Naval Institute) as a supportive source on anything Russian related, and on this site no less, is a complete waste of time.
    Type "Russia" into the search bar, and you will get all the slanted type of articles aimed at Russia you will need for a lifetime. They don't even pretend to be subtle, or hide it.




    My apologies - I'll stick to Sputnik News from here on out
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:16 am

    Honesroc wrote:
    wilhelm wrote:Of course, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Russia might sell these ships to India...BUT...

    Using the USNI (United States Naval Institute) as a supportive source on anything Russian related, and on this site no less, is a complete waste of time.
    Type "Russia" into the search bar, and you will get all the slanted type of articles aimed at Russia you will need for a lifetime. They don't even pretend to be subtle, or hide it.




    My apologies - I'll stick to Sputnik News from here on out

    No need to jump at each other's throats here.

    My issue is not with the outlet that published article but with the source.

    Indian sources are not exempt from embellishing facts and theories and speculations about sale of those ship have been flying around for several years already.

    Let's all just wait for official word.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:49 am

    I hope this is not true.
    If it is going on, presumably indicates the domestic engines are considerably further off than next year.

    USNI article is quoting Janes, who quote 'defense ministry sources', could be just the old quotes, could be legit new info though.

    On the bright side if they do go ahead with sale more effort can be put on the 22350 engines (or start working on a new gen based off PD-14?)
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:41 am

    Finally found a pic confirming that is an EO ball (when I say EO, I'm assuming includes IR/UV, laser range finder etc)

    wilhelm

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  wilhelm on Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:48 am

    Honesroc wrote:
    wilhelm wrote:Of course, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Russia might sell these ships to India...BUT...

    Using the USNI (United States Naval Institute) as a supportive source on anything Russian related, and on this site no less, is a complete waste of time.
    Type "Russia" into the search bar, and you will get all the slanted type of articles aimed at Russia you will need for a lifetime. They don't even pretend to be subtle, or hide it.




    My apologies - I'll stick to Sputnik News from here on out

    Stupid comment. I never mentioned Sputnik.

    Honesroc

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Honesroc on Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:38 pm

    wilhelm wrote:
    Honesroc wrote:
    wilhelm wrote:Of course, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Russia might sell these ships to India...BUT...

    Using the USNI (United States Naval Institute) as a supportive source on anything Russian related, and on this site no less, is a complete waste of time.
    Type "Russia" into the search bar, and you will get all the slanted type of articles aimed at Russia you will need for a lifetime. They don't even pretend to be subtle, or hide it.




    My apologies - I'll stick to Sputnik News from here on out

    Stupid comment. I never mentioned Sputnik.

    You've missed my point.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:39 pm


    One more thing I forgot to add: Ukraine has also refused to provide engines for Gepard class frigates that are built for Vietnam and that caused completion and delivery to be delayed. I don't see why they would agree to deliver engines for India when they already refused Vietnam.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    One more thing I forgot to add: Ukraine has also refused to provide engines for Gepard class frigates that are built for Vietnam and that caused completion and delivery to be delayed. I don't see why they would agree to deliver engines for India when they already refused Vietnam.
    The Ukrops eventualy agreed to deliver the engines after immense pressure from Vietnam.
    Twose 2 Gepards are now launched and being completed. They will be in Vietnam later this year or next. There are photos of them.
    But Vietnam will no longer order these Gepards with Ukrainian engines. They are now insisting on Russian engines for any additional future Gepard purchases.

    Regarding the next trio of Grigoroviches, you guys should know that the third Gorshkov class frigate (Admiral Isakov) will be launched in November. That unit will be the first to get the Russian built turbines. Priority will be for the Gorshkovs. Grigoroviches will have to wait a bit longer. So, might as well sell the second trio of Grigoroviches to India rather than keep them(they occupy space in the yard and cost money to upkeep).
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:01 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:.........
    But Vietnam will no longer order these Gepards with Ukrainian engines. They are now insisting on Russian engines for any additional future Gepard purchases.

    Regarding the next trio of Grigoroviches, you guys should know that the third Gorshkov class frigate (Admiral Isakov) will be launched in November. That unit will be the first to get the Russian built turbines. Priority will be for the Gorshkovs. Grigoroviches will have to wait a bit longer. So, might as well sell the second trio of Grigoroviches to India rather than keep them(they occupy space in the yard and cost money to upkeep).

    Didn't Gepards and Grigorevich use same model of engines? So they still need compatible engine if they want to sell more ships to Vietnam. Or I might be wrong?


    Either way once engines for Gorshkovs are ready they need to do with them what they already done with 22800 Karakurts- launch production simultaneously in several shipyards. Only thing that makes sense now. If necessary put corvette production on hold for several years in order to catch up with frigates.

    Gorshkov/Karakurt combo will be more than superior option to spreading fleet thin with additional corvettes in the mix. Corvettes can wait for a while and frigates can easily do their job.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:17 pm


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