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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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    KiloGolf
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:21 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:I think it shouldn't be a multipurpose frigate's job. OHP's used to offer zone defence via their SM-1MR in the US Navy (> 70 km). But the missile/system by 2016 standards is useless (Turkey still uses it iirc). Most such frigates in NATO (around the 3,000 t mark) use Sea Sparrow/ESSM point defense (up to 50 km), and that's where it ends. I guess the Russian BSF will need at least a pair of Adm Gorshkov class destroyers to cover extended zone and theatre defence tasks. Shtil-1 should be good up to 50 km, which is not bad at all. And I will venture to assume the Buk's warhead is heavier than the Sea Sparrow.


    But type 22350 is a frigate Smile and 32 cells for 32x9M96 is good but still is this adequate to protect many smaller ships from mass ASchMs attack?

    What I meant to say was that on top of the x6 Grigorovich frigates, they should deploy x2 Gorshkov destroyers in BSF.
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    hoom
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:04 am

    My wishlist/upgrade include
    1) - New integrated mast (as displayed by the Phazatron NIIR, posted below)
    2) - 6m hull extension (130m overall length, up from 124m) from aft of exhaust stack to facilitate
    - atleast 36 cell VLS for AD missile
    - shift boats and launch apparatus along this flank to free amidship area for missiles
    3) 16-32 x Kh-35U amidship aft of the bridge structure (navy needs low cost but capable missiles)
    That would be overdoing it I think.
    I'd rather see just lots of the lower grade Grigorovich & focus development effort on Lider &/or a stretched Gorshkov Mk2

    Malta? This has to be from 2013, Russians are now considered fire-breathing aliens with acid blood, something like a port visit at a EU/NATO state (outside of Greece) is completely out of the question since 2014.
    Definitely only a few days ago.
    There was even a recent article where US side of NATO has been complaining that Spain has been allowing Russian ships to refuel at Ceuta. Malta is EU but not NATO.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:52 pm

    Dima wrote:......................
    I strongly believe in the upgrade potential of 11356 which has not yet exhausted. I hope Russians are considering further upgrade of the 11356. I have had some thoughts on the stuff and visualize a 11356 with those stuffs.
    ............


    I don't think that they even scratched the surface of upgrade potential of these ships but that something to be done much later. You don't upgrade straight from the shipyard.


    Dima wrote:......
    My wishlist/upgrade include
    1) - New integrated mast (as displayed by the Phazatron NIIR, posted below)
    2) - 6m hull extension (130m overall length, up from 124m) from aft of exhaust stack to facilitate
    - atleast 36 cell VLS for AD missile
    - shift boats and launch apparatus along this flank to free amidship area for missiles
    3) 16-32 x Kh-35U amidship aft of the bridge structure (navy needs low cost but capable missiles)
    ............................


    Hull extension? Can you even do that without affecting performance?

    If yes, then I got some sweet ideas for 22800 Karakurt.
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    Militarov
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Militarov on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:41 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Dima wrote:......................
    I strongly believe in the upgrade potential of 11356 which has not yet exhausted. I hope Russians are considering further upgrade of the 11356. I have had some thoughts on the stuff and visualize a 11356 with those stuffs.
    ............


    I don't think that they even scratched the surface of upgrade potential of these ships but that something to be done much later. You don't upgrade straight from the shipyard.


    Dima wrote:......
    My wishlist/upgrade include
    1) - New integrated mast (as displayed by the Phazatron NIIR, posted below)
    2) - 6m hull extension (130m overall length, up from 124m) from aft of exhaust stack to facilitate
    - atleast 36 cell VLS for AD missile
    - shift boats and launch apparatus along this flank to free amidship area for missiles
    3) 16-32 x Kh-35U amidship aft of the bridge structure (navy needs low cost but capable missiles)
    ............................


    Hull extension? Can you even do that without affecting performance?

    If yes, then I got some sweet ideas for 22800 Karakurt.

    Every change affects performance abit, but if its done "from the scratch" those shotcomings can be adressed and countered by other solutions. Its even performed on already existing hulls btw:

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    hoom
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:21 am

    Its a neat trick but even if they wanted to, I don't think Russian shipbuilding is up to it.
    Not aware of such a thing ever being done on an existing naval ship also.
    Certainly lengthened new batches though.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:15 am

    SeaWaves magazine: "During the maiden arrival of RFS Admiral Grigorovich at Sevastopol June 9th, hull was damaged during berthing."

    New crew i presume xD
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:09 am

    There was a video on Balancers forum (which seems to be gone now), looks like they backed up too much to low dock, but they had guys there with buffers so shouldn't be too bad.

    I thought the angle must have been for show but maybe that was a mess-up?
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Dima on Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:50 pm

    George1 wrote:First modern ship to enter BLS fleet. Time to discard old ships like Krivak class.. Excellent! russia
    Time has not yet arrived to discard the old ones. Force levels are simply inadequate. Unless there is something like 12 x 11356 class at the disposal of BSF, even thinking of discarding the usable two ships of 1135/M will be foolish. 

    KiloGolf wrote:What I meant to say was that on top of the x6 Grigorovich frigates, they should deploy x2 Gorshkov destroyers in BSF.
    I would also like to see the 22350 with the BSF, but not coz of the AD missiles, but because, of its larger (and more capable) hull mounted sonar arrays.

    In my view 22350 is a product of combining the two specific capability of 11356 (anti-ship) and 11541 (anti-sub) and overall a highly optimized multirole frigates, which is equally good in both roles.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Dima on Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 pm

    hoom wrote:Its a neat trick but even if they wanted to, I don't think Russian shipbuilding is up to it.
    Not aware of such a thing ever being done on an existing naval ship also.
    Certainly lengthened new batches though.
    Btw, I was not specifically mentioning about lengthening the current 11356 already in water (which can happen if needed at the appropriate time), but about new units thats going to be built. More over all the 11356 are assembled with smaller sections anyway. Hardly a technical challenge for a premier shipyard as Yantar given the "new" design has been vetted by the OKB.

    Regarding hull extension, Yantar had done such work on commercial ship/tanker. Unlike the video posted by Militarov earlier, the one undertaken by Yantar (as can be seen in the pic) is not a completely built module (time savings), but they are doing work from the keel up after cutting the hull in two.


    I don't remember the details and I cant find the info on their current website, it was mentioned in their old website with the above pic.
    www.shipyard-yantar.ru/en/
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Dima on Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:I don't think that they even scratched the surface of upgrade potential of these ships but that something to be done much later. You don't upgrade straight from the shipyard.
    I do wish they scratch it coz 11356 design has upgrade potential. The modified design (if at all they do go ahead) will be in consultation with the designers themselves. A modified/upgraded 11356 is not something which is not doable. Not exploring the possibility to enhance the capability of 11356 will be foolish.

    After all what are we looking at with this kind of upgrade -

    1) A new integrated mast or atleast a mast which can accommodate/integrate multi faceted radar arrays and other systems.

    The below pic shows Indian Navy's two 11356 under construction, one with its mast installed and another one without it. A new mast integration would most probably be like plug-n-play, the main stuff to be looked into is if the present electrical systems have the capacity to cater to the (increased) loads from the new radar and electrical systems.


    2) Inserting a new hull section aft of the exhaust stack (adjacent/in front of the hanger)

    For a 124m long ship, 6m hull section is a far less complicated stuff than proofing an equally long hull section for a sub-70 meter submarine. I'm talking about the design of AIP module and VLS module for submarines. Below is a hull section of 11356 and If my estimate based on the beam of approx 15m is correct, we are looking at a hull section thats around 6m in length. Its not a full size section though.


    With a new/integrated mast, the area behind the bridge structure can be cleared with the boats and lauch arms being shifted to the new hull section and alongside the new VLS area.


    ^^ This is the place where additional Uran canisters (those 8-cell version we see with BAL coastal units) will be installed which can number 16-32 depending on space. Now all targets don't need Yakhont/Klub/Kaliber treatment and can be accomplished with 260Km range Urans, like striking those international terrorists inside Syria.  

    Hull extension? Can you even do that without affecting performance?

    If yes, then I got some sweet ideas for 22800 Karakurt.
    Why should we be so much worried about performance. I don't think its going to make much difference.
    Btw, we also need to take note that for any future ships we are looking at new and powerful gas turbines like M75RU (6000-7000 hp), M70FRU (12000-14000 hp) and the 27,500hp M90FR.

    A new version of 11356 can either retain COGAG (premium propulsion system) or go with more economical CODAG (termed as poor mans propulsion) like that of 22350.

    Then there is shafting (very important part and specialized) which will also see lengthened... haven't heard about any vibrations issues caused due to improper alignment of the shaft from the Russian side, so no worries. Yantar makes shafts inhouse.



    Btw, I'm interested in hearing your ideas on 22800.


    Last edited by Dima on Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    hoom
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:13 pm

    If there was an MSM headline: 'New Russian warship aggressively passes within meters of other ship!'

    Reality: Grigorovich crew renders friendly Passing Honours in the Med (via Balancers, sadly doesn't seem to be made clear which ship they are passing)
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  franco on Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:44 pm

    Simferopol, June 10 -. RIA Novosti Russia's Black Sea fleet replenished with another five frigates of Project 11356, according to Presidential Envoy in Crimean Federal District Oleg Belavenets.

    The first frigate "Admiral Grigorovich" Project 11356 arrived on Thursday to the place of permanent basing in Sevastopol.
    "Yesterday in Sevastopol came the lead ship of the series 11356" Admiral Grigorovich "This ultra-modern frigate of this class ships did not go to the Crimea for about 35 years, Navy is strengthened in the near future will approach another of the frigate of the same class -.." Admiral Essen " - said Belavenets at a ceremony on the occasion of the forthcoming Day of Russia.
    In addition, according to the envoy, in a few years it is expected to arrive even more frigates.
    "Six ships of this class will be in the Black Sea and the Mediterranean", - summed up Belavenets.


    Sounds like they plan to build all 6 frigates as originally planned. Must be developing a replacement engine.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:55 am

    Infographic from the Italian guy who does those http://charly015.blogspot.com/2016/06/el-primer-rayon-del-coche-nuevo.html

    I hadn't realised the dome on the hangar is an air search radar, thought it was a satelite antenna.
    I guess it works with the AK-630s?
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GRU on Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:04 am

    hoom wrote:Infographic from the Italian guy who does those http://charly015.blogspot.com/2016/06/el-primer-rayon-del-coche-nuevo.html

    I hadn't realised the dome on the hangar is an air search radar, thought it was a satelite antenna.
    I guess it works with the AK-630s?

    a lil off topic, is it just me or this ship looks "not finished"/ ugly

    they should do more like this: what do you guys think?

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:07 am

    Well that would be this
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:54 am

    Don't know where it came from but that idea of the multi pagoda type structure is very very stupid... it reduces internal volume while greatly increasing the number of corners which is bad from a stealth perspective... and it looks stupid.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:02 pm

    GRU wrote:a lil off topic, is it just me or this ship looks "not finished"/ ugly

    they should do more like this: what do you guys think?

    Not really, it's even better than your average EU/NATO navy frigate. RBU-6000 and Kalibr capabilities are destroyer-level little perks. Russia better build these frigates in greater numbers, maybe expand their shipbuilding in Crimea.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:07 pm

    i think project 11356 frigates where selected only for BLS fleet because they wanted to replace old 40-year age ships quickly. And this class was already in production for Indian Navy.
    For other fleets they will produce the more multi-role and heavy project 22350.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:26 pm


    Admiral Grigorovich walkthrough:

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:52 am

    Kind of amazing they let a whole heap of people on with cameras & apparently pretty much free reign of the ship.
    Bridge looks a bit disappointingly small & basic? Presumably a CIC with the nice bits elsewhere?

    Also from same channel this is the docking vid I couldn't find before
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  zg18 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:16 pm

    3rd ship in class, "Admiral Makarov" demagnetization

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:24 am

    Oh nice, I saw pics but failed to register its the 3rd ship.
    That should mean it can be in BSF by the end of the year?

    Essen was degaussed in Dec & hasn't quite arrived yet so I guess unless they speed things up a bit its more likely to be in service but not at BSF till 1/4 '17.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:28 am

    and the last 3 go for 2018?? to be in service?


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:23 am

    George1 wrote:and the last 3 go for 2018?? to be in service?

    The remaining three for what moscow says will be in service around 2020 they will have the gas turbines by 2018 then they need to make sure they work, instill them on the ships finishing building the ships, sea trails etc.

    Which is fine Russia doesn't NEED them its more of a nice thing to have.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  marat on Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:04 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    George1 wrote:and the last 3 go for 2018?? to be in service?

    The remaining three for what moscow says will be in service around 2020 they will have the gas turbines by 2018 then they need to make sure they work, instill them on the ships finishing building the ships, sea trails etc.

    Which is fine Russia doesn't NEED them its more of a nice thing to have.

    Well i think that Russia do NEED them as there would not be enought ocean going ships in navy all of that time. Now it it clear that untin 2030-ies Russia will be in lack of big ships.

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