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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:56 am

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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:52 pm

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    George1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:34 pm

    Russian Navy cancels contract for sixth Admiral Grigorovich-class frigate "Admiral Kornilov"
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/787089.html
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:42 pm

    George1 wrote:Russian Navy cancels contract for sixth Admiral Grigorovich-class frigate "Admiral Kornilov"
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/787089.html
    Looks like it's going to be replaced with an Admiral Gorshkov-class frigate, so does that mean it will be constructed at the Wharf Shipyard in St.Petersburg??
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Sergei_Gorshkov_class_frigate

    Vympel

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vympel on Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:01 pm

    So what's the story? Is the sixth ship cancelled, or not?

    Also, is there any clarity on whether it'll have AK-630 instead of Kashtan, like the last three Talwars built for India? Why not Palma/Palash or whatever? (Since they're not building Kashtan anymore)
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:08 pm

    Ak-630 for sure.

    I think yard ordered them a while back and wanted to use them up.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:33 pm

    Should be noted that AK-630 has likely improved quite a bit with the introduction of newer more capable radar directors for them...


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    Vympel

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vympel on Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:Should be noted that AK-630 has likely improved quite a bit with the introduction of newer more capable radar directors for them...

    It just seems cheap and something of a waste of available space - we know the Pr. 11356M can accomodate Kashtan-M guns there, therefore it should (conceivably) be able to acommodate Palma CIWS - AK-630 seems a waste. Further, even if one were to abandon the idea of a gun/missile CIWS, if you're going to use just a gun system - surely AK-630M2 "Duet" would be the ticket.

    But then, India seems to be happy with AK-630s instead of Kashtan-M in its last three Talwar-class frigates.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:33 pm

    It is a question of space... Kashtan requires at least one deck level for reload missiles and missile reloading equipment... it would not be that cheap either.

    A few AK-630s around the place with new digital aiming systems and radar that tracks targets and outgoing bursts of shells should be effective enough against most subsonic targets with more capable targets requiring a dedicated SAM, but most vessels will likely never need that anyway... especially patrol boat sized vessels.

    Many western vessels rely on MANPADS, so having a 30mm gatling is a much more versatile system.


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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:07 pm

    MOD wanted boats fast and cheap, hence the factory using spare Ak-630s they had.
    That seems to pretty much be the decision making process.

    Now the boats are late and the MOD is not happy with the price-effectiveness ratio, hence the 6th boat being in flux.

    Indian boats have short-range SAMs, Russian ones have nothing. Though the Shtil is thankfully VLS, so the response time should be better than the old launcher.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:29 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Indian boats have short-range SAMs, Russian ones have nothing. Though the Shtil is thankfully VLS, so the response time should be better than the old launcher.
    What!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked 
    Wiki wrote:
    Class overview
    Name: Admiral Grigorovich
    Builders: Yantar Shipyard
    Operators: Russian Navy
    Preceded by: Burevestnik-class frigate
    Building: 5
    Planned: 6 [1]+ 4 maybe[2]

    General characteristics
    Class & type: Frigate
    Type: Project 11356M
    Displacement:

    Standard: 3,850 tons [3]
    Full: 4,035 tons
    Length: 124.8 metres
    Beam: 15.2 metres
    Draught: 4.2 metres
    Propulsion: 2 × DS-71 gas turbines and 2 × DT-59 boost turbines, driving two shafts.
    Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h)
    Range: 4,500 mi (7,200 km) at 18 knots (33 km/h)
    Endurance: 30 days
    Complement: 220
    Crew: 190

    Sensors and
    processing systems: Surface search radar: 3Ts-25E Garpun-B, MR-212/201-1, Nucleus-2 6000A
    Air search radar: Fregat M2EM
    Fire control: JSC 5P-10E Puma FCS, 3R14N-11356 FCS, MR-90 Orekh SAM FCS
    Electronic warfare
    & decoys: TK-25E-5 EW suite, four KT-216 decoy launchers

    Armament:
    Guns and missiles:
    1 × 100mm (3.9 in) A-190 gun
    2 Kashtan-M CIWS systems
    8-cell VLS for 3M-54E Klub and 3M55 Oniks missiles
    3 x 12-cell 3S90M Shtil-1 VLS for 9M317ME (SA-N-12)[4] SAMs
    8 Igla-1E (SA-16) SAMs
    Anti-submarine:
    1 x RBU-6000 rocket launcher
    2х2 533mm torpedo tubes
    Aircraft carried: 1 Ka-28, Ka-31 helicopter
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:05 am

    I mean short range SAMs like the Sosna missile for example.
    Russian ships do not have Kashtan like the early Indian boats.
    They do not have the Barack + Ak-630 combo of the later Indian boats.

    All they have is the medium range Shtil.
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:51 am

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    George1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:52 am


    when the trials will start?

    Vympel

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vympel on Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:11 am

    This appears to indicate that the sixth Project 11356M frigate for the BSF has not, after all, been cancelled (in Russian)

    The defense Ministry told how and what will protect Crimea

    ...

    It is already known that the Crimean group will be part of the southern military district. If we talk about the black sea fleet, Admiral finally will update it to the ship's structure - which earlier opposed Ukraine. After two years, the Navy will receive six new frigate of project 11356, ideal whether for action on the Black sea, and in structure of operational connection the Russian Navy in the Mediterranean. The ships will be equipped with a universal missile-artillery armament and modern radio means anti-submarine and air defence. Head frigate "Admiral Grigorovich" already launched. Kaliningrad shipbuilders laid back four - Admiral Essen", "Admiral Makarov", "Admiral Butakov" and "Admiral Istomin". The sixth ship will start building in the current year.

    At the same time black sea fleet to make six new diesel-electric submarines of 636 project. Two submarines must replenish the combat composition of the black sea fleet before the New year, two more - next year, remaining in 2016 m According to some data, submarines "ascribed" to the team of submarines, which will be based in Sevastopol. Earlier this connection wanted to place in Novorossiysk.
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Sat May 10, 2014 1:52 am

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    Viktor

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Viktor on Sun May 11, 2014 11:45 am

    New pics  Very Happy 

    LINK
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Sat May 24, 2014 12:26 am


    calripson

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    Date of Active Duty

    Post  calripson on Sat May 24, 2014 2:53 am

    What is the realistic date of entry into the Russian navy ? Why does it take so long for Russian naval ships to enter service after launch ? They seem to spend on inordinate amount of time in trials. Also, what is the planned air defense suite for the Grigorovich class ?
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Sat May 24, 2014 2:59 am

    Because 1.) 90s crisis and 2.) most of the ships are new types, so they take a long time to test out the lead ships. Same with subsystems.

    Mid 2015 is probably a decent estimate. AD is 32 VLS Shtil cells.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 24, 2014 12:14 pm

    Why does it take so long for Russian naval ships to enter service after launch ?

    Lots of new untested stuff that has to be installed and integrated into new systems.

    They are also moving to an entirely modular standardised building regime where before there were single role customised ships, now they have multiroled vessels hopefully in larger production batches, which means a wider range of technologies on each boat.

    Also... what is the hurry?

    They got into the current state over a decade or more and it wont be fixed in a few weeks or months. Proper funding isn't magic, though it is the only long term solution.


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    George1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Sat May 24, 2014 2:07 pm

    calripson wrote:What is the realistic date of entry into the Russian navy ? Why does it take so long for Russian naval ships to enter service after launch ? They seem to spend on inordinate amount of time in trials. Also, what is the planned air defense suite for the Grigorovich class ?

    The answer is simple, corruption
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 24, 2014 6:24 pm

    George1 wrote:
    calripson wrote:What is the realistic date of entry into the Russian navy ? Why does it take so long for Russian naval ships to enter service after launch ? They seem to spend on inordinate amount of time in trials. Also, what is the planned air defense suite for the Grigorovich class ?

    The answer is simple, corruption

    No, it is not.

    There are various tests it needs to go through. If ship is launched, and needs to be accepted into service, corruption has very little to do with it. It is when the ship is being built where some of these problems lies. But even with those, it is mostly to do with constant changing of requirements (see the Ivan Gren ship).
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Sat May 24, 2014 9:36 pm

    George1 wrote:
    calripson wrote:What is the realistic date of entry into the Russian navy ? Why does it take so long for Russian naval ships to enter service after launch ? They seem to spend on inordinate amount of time in trials. Also, what is the planned air defense suite for the Grigorovich class ?

    The answer is simple, corruption

    Far from only.

    Many of the enterprises were money starved for almost two decades, sudden cash infusion does not magically make up personal inadequacy. Most of the major builders are looking to boost their work force by anything from 1 to 9 thousand extra personnel.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 24, 2014 11:16 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    calripson wrote:What is the realistic date of entry into the Russian navy ? Why does it take so long for Russian naval ships to enter service after launch ? They seem to spend on inordinate amount of time in trials. Also, what is the planned air defense suite for the Grigorovich class ?

    The answer is simple, corruption

    Far from only.

    Many of the enterprises were money starved for almost two decades, sudden cash infusion does not magically make up personal inadequacy. Most of the major builders are looking to boost their work force by anything from 1 to 9 thousand extra personnel.

    Sukhoi was smart for having their own education center to train specialists prior to them working. United Shipbuilding Corp really needs this as well, since they are in demand for specialists.

    At least it is creating jobs.

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