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    Should Russia build new Aircraft Carriers and Battlecruisers?

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    Do you think russia should start designing a replacement for the Kirov class?

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    Should Russia build new Aircraft Carriers and Battlecruisers? - Page 3 Bar_left77%Should Russia build new Aircraft Carriers and Battlecruisers? - Page 3 Bar_right [77%] 
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    Total Votes: 26
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:15 am

    Other than implying that you behold an incorrect notion, what kind of response is this?

    The Granit is like a Scud... it is a 7 ton missile largely because it has a turbojet engine which requires a lot of fuel to carry the missile to the distance and speed that it manages.

    The Onyx is a much newer missile that uses a ramjet motor that means it can fly at supersonic speed much more efficiently than the Granit, and also the armour used in the Onyx to deflect CIWS shells and protect its warhead... which is over 600kgs BTW is relatively light Titanium.

    The result is a missile with similar performance that is approximately 3 tons lighter.

    Onyx is the replacement for Granit and Moskit.

    I am aware of three distinct weight-groups of Russian antiship cruise missiles that are heavier than Oniks. I mentioned two of the weight groups in my previous post.

    The heaviest weight group has been eliminated because of improvements in propulsion and electronics.

    I really didn’t understand what you were trying to say. Please elaborate.

    I’ll make a guess about what you were trying to say anyway:

    What he is probably trying to say is that Onyx and Zirconium are not export missiles... so unlike the Yakhont and Brahmos, both missiles are not limited to 300km range and 500km in payload weight. this means although lighter than Granit their performance is probably not actually inferior in many areas.

    Zirconium being a scramjet powered hypersonic missile yet to enter service.

    In addition, the Russian requirements for antiship missiles with warhead masses of around 1 ton and antiship ballistic missiles have not gone away.

    the kinetic impact of several tons of missile would sink many ships on its own with large HE payloads less useful... many modern missiles have incendiary payloads because fire is rather more devastating on board a ship than HE.

    Even the Russian have admitted that Kh-22B can reach a speed of over Mach 6 and an altitude of over 70 km (due to technical reasons, the real figures are substantially higher).

    The Kh-32 is described as having double the range and speed of the Kh-22M and is described as having a flight speed of more than mach 5 with a flight range of well over 600km.

    Why do you make that assertion? Give a reason.

    The English translation of UKSK is basically universal vertical launch anti ship/cruise missile launcher.

    It is pretty much the standard launcher for anti ship, anti sub, and land attack missiles for the Russian Navy and will be fitted to ships from Corvettes to carriers and also a version on submarines.

    BT-7 and T-26 were very good tanks, but in comparison to the list I gave in my previous post, they were nothing; they were strategic decoys.

    Similar arguments have been made over the decades about very similar issues. I have participated in many of those debates. This is just the latest round.

    One of the biggest problems of the Soviet Navy was customisation. They customised ship design and created very capable vessels. An example is the Udaloy class... an ASW Destroyer. It had Gas Turbine engines to chase subs efficiently, it had SS-N-14 missiles to hunt both subs and ships, it had an array of sensors and self defence systems. It is a similar size and from a similar time period as the Sovremmeny class Destroyers... different propulsion, different missiles and different guns and sensors and systems but similar size.

    Very little in common between the two otherwise similar sized vessels. No compatibility between the anti ship missiles they carried, very different propulsion.

    The result is that they made a dozen of each and they had a dozen of each type. A Sovremmeny was not much good for ASW, and the Udaloy was not great at anti ship... the SS-N-14 being a subsonic IR guided anti ship missile... a bit like the NSM really, though the SS-N-14 carried a torpedo too for use against submarines, which was its normal role.

    Now the Russian Navy has decided to get rid of all the thousands of companies that supply ten different anti ship missile and ten different SAM.

    The UKSK is a launcher that can launch land attack cruise missiles (ie Kalibr... based on the Klub missile with a range of 2,500km in the Russian model), a subsonic anti ship missile (again the klub with presumably the same 2,500km flight range as the very similar land attack cruise missile), a Supersonic anti ship missile (the Onyx with a 500km range... for export there is the Yakhont for anti ship only like the Onyx, and the Brahmos for anti ship and land attack... both the export missiles have a range of less than 300km and a payload of less than 500kgs). The launcher can also fire the 91RE2 which is a mach 2 ballistic missile that carries a torpedo as a payload to 40km range in the ship based model and 50km range in the sub based model.

    As I said all the ships in the Russian Navy will have this launcher so the next gen Destroyer with 4 UKSK launchers will be able to carry up to 32 missiles (each launcher has 8 tubes) in any combination.

    That means a modern destroyer can have 8 x Onyx missiles, 8 x 91Re2s, and still have 16 tubes for land attack missiles... compared with the Sovremmeny class ship with 8 Moskits or the Udaloy with 8 SS-N-14 anti sub torpedo launchers.. the new destroyer can have the firepower of both ships, the sensors to use them, and have a land attack capability only previous generation SSBNs had.

    the loadout can be changed at the pier before a mission or by reloading ship at sea.

    Not only that when a ship goes to another Russian port the propulsion is going to be more standardised, there are going to be fewer weapons and sensors so there are fewer sensor and weapon companies but it means fewer weapon types need to be stored and bought.

    Much easier to manage and maintain and operate.

    Here is a picture of proekt 12347 with Oniks missile. The first time I saw a picture of this ship with Oniks launchers was about 30 years ago.

    Now that they actually have some money the money seems to be going to production of new small vessels rather than upgrades of older vessels.

    the one place I can see this sort of upgrade being applied is with the Slava class cruisers as there is not sufficient internal space for the UKSK launch bins, but the Granit is no longer in production so if they want to equip it with a long range anti ship missile then Onyx or Zircon make the most sense.

    If they can fit a UKSK launcher angled in place of each of the twin angled missiles on the Slava that should mean 8 x 8 launchers and 64 missiles. Not as many as they project they will be able to fit in the Kirov upgrades where they are talking about 10 UKSK launchers with 80 missiles. But still reasonable.
    KomissarBojanchev
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:24 pm

    Perhaps russia could build this with the mistral compensation Twisted Evil

    Should Russia build new Aircraft Carriers and Battlecruisers? - Page 3 20141210

    This battlecruiser although looking old fashioned actually could have a lot of uses in modern sea warfare. First of all its guns aren't WW2 tech. The 305mm ones are EM cannons capable of firing projectiles to 300km and 570km rocket assisted. As for guns arent as accurate as missiles it can fire guided shells too at a fraction of the price of a full blown missile.If that isn't enough it has 6 UKSK cells. Keep in mind the guns can be replaced with extra UKSK VLSs in an alternate version, leaving the still very potent conventional 203mm turret(120-150km range with rocket assisted shells) . Unlike other modern ships it also has armor. Not WW2 steel belts but thick composite modern tank armor capable of protecting it from FAE blasts and close(but not direct) tactical nuclear detonations. It's spacious interior makes it very hard for narrow HEAT blasts to do much damage to it unless a critical area is hit(very unlikely). Combined with massive shore bombardment potential and heavy armor(forget about Bereg doing any damage to it) it would be the most effective ship in supporting amphibious landings.

    If you think if its a battleship then it still has bofors guns, its not the case with this one. It has completely contemporary(even superior to most of today's ships) multilayer AA systems that can effectively defend against ASM attacks. For defence against submarines  it it doesn't have much more than the UKSK launchers but since it's a capital ship it's expected to have escorting destroyers.

    It's speed:32kn

    Armament:
    2x203mm conventional cannon
    2x2 305mm EM guns
    48 UKSK launchers
    Redut
    S-500
    5x Palash and 5x Pantsir CIWS
    paket

    My suggested names: after famous russian victories
    Stalingrad
    Poltava
    Gangut
    Sinop
    Kaliakria
    collegeboy16
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    Post  collegeboy16 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:37 pm

    dude, as much as that would make the french(or anyone else, really) go for peanut butter and jealous, what the russkies really need is just a cheap and simple mistral equivalent.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Tue May 08, 2018 12:00 pm

    afte so many months of conflict in this discussion the eternal questions have not been answered yet:

    1. Does Russia needs aircraft carriers?
    2. Has Russia the ability to construct aircraft carriers?

    Razz Cool lol1 lol1 lol!
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    kumbor

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    Post  kumbor on Tue May 08, 2018 12:03 pm

    George1 wrote:afte so many months of conflict in this discussion the eternal questions have not been answered yet:

    1. Does Russia needs aircraft carriers?
    2. Has Russia the ability to construct aircraft carriers?

    Razz Cool lol1 lol1 lol!

    There is a need, but not so urgent.

    The shipbuilding ability is doubtful now, but the yards are in reconstruction as to make that possible very soon.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 08, 2018 12:21 pm

    George1 wrote:afte so many months of conflict in this discussion the eternal questions have not been answered yet:

    1. Does Russia needs aircraft carriers?
    2. Has Russia the ability to construct aircraft carriers?

    Razz Cool lol1 lol1 lol!

    Last time I checked those types of mass-quote spam-posts were cause for getting banned.

    Mods were very strict about that rule. Waiting for to be applied here.
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue May 08, 2018 12:38 pm

    One has to be either naive or ignorant not to acknowledge Russian need for CVN. The only reason for their submarine focus is lack of funds and ability to make carriers as Khruscev said in 60s.

    Without CVN you don't have ability to influence distant regions. It's not about being world cop, it's called interest protecting and shifting monopolar to multipolar world. That's Russia and it's certainly not a defensive UN peacemaker afraid to step in Ukraine or Syria to protect civilians.

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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 08, 2018 12:47 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:One has to be either naive or ignorant not to acknowledge Russian need for CVN. The only reason for their submarine focus is lack of funds and ability to make carriers as Khruscev said in 60s.

    Without CVN you don't have ability to influence distant regions. It's not about being world cop, it's called interest protecting and shifting monopolar to multipolar world. That's Russia and it's certainly not a defensive UN peacemaker afraid to step in Ukraine or Syria to protect civilians.

    Yes, yes, Russian interests in Patagonia and Papua New Guinea must be protected at all (financial) costs... Rolling Eyes
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue May 08, 2018 1:12 pm

    Believe it or not, Africa is the continent of the future, full of resources like oil and food, over which wars will be faught in the future.

    If Vietnam wouldn't be traditional Soviet navy refueling base, who knows how many weapons would Russia sell down there and how aligned with US would the country be.

    Venezuela has the largest prooven oil resources in the world and hence power to destabilize the price if it increases the oil output..Russians can't let CIA do coup d'etat.

    I don't know why some companies bother investing in marketing and cybersecurity indeed, they could just decrease the price and hope to sell more...connections and friends don't matter, right.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 08, 2018 3:01 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Yes, yes, Russian interests in Patagonia and Papua New Guinea must be protected at all (financial) costs...  Rolling Eyes

    New Zealand, dont forget about New Zealand - we need to save GarryB lol1 lol1 lol1



    verkhoturye51 wrote:Believe it or not, Africa is the continent of the future, full of resources like oil and food, over which wars will be faught in the future.

    Venezuela has the largest prooven oil resources in the world and hence power to destabilize the price if it increases the oil output..Russians can't let CIA do coup d'etat.

    still you need to live to this moment. If you overspend on military people start going on streets in Russia.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue May 08, 2018 5:56 pm

    Define overspending...12 Liders = another Arab Spring can't happen in north Africa if Russia doesn't bless it = 2nd Libyan civil war is finished tommorow = investment business for Russians the day after tommorow

    And CNN can't BS Americans how rusty and bankrupt Russian army is and their interests in Ukraine don't have to be respected and Donald will be elected again instead of Killary.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 08, 2018 7:58 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Define overspending...12 Liders = another Arab Spring can't happen in north Africa if Russia doesn't bless it = 2nd Libyan civil war is finished tommorow = investment business for Russians the day after tommorow
    ...........

    About Arabs and Russians:

    ...and the USSR quickly discovered that its Arab ‘allies’ in whom it had invested so much were both ungrateful and treacherous, so that by 1980 the USSR’s entire position in the Middle East had completely collapsed.

    The final straw came after the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan in 1979, when volunteers from across the Arab world rushed to fight the Russians in Afghanistan, in a way that they had never shown the slightest indication of wanting to do against Israel on behalf of the Palestinians.

    http://theduran.com/israels-netanyahu-to-be-guest-of-honour-at-russias-9th-may-victory-day-celebration/

    Some things are waste of money on several levels, you just added another one to this.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue May 08, 2018 9:03 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:the USSR’s entire position in the Middle East had completely collapsed.

    SU was stagnant in 80s, but US is today. Their position in ME has completely collapsed, too. The days of US dominance are over. And Russians are filling the empty place with speed of light. Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Libya, N. Sudan, Israel...relationship with Qatar and Saudis had improved, too.
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    Post  Hole on Tue May 08, 2018 10:00 pm

    Russia doesn´t meddle in other countries affairs. It´s the Job of Venezuelans to stop the CIA scum. Same for Arabs. And if they ask for help, there would be no need for carriers. Carriers are only useful for WWII style operations in open water (carrier against carrier) or surpressing third world countries. If Russia decides to build a carrier class (and i have no doubt they will), than it will mainly be for operations against other carriers in a big war.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 08, 2018 10:20 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Define overspending...12 Liders = another Arab Spring can't happen in north Africa if Russia doesn't bless it = 2nd Libyan civil war is finished tommorow = investment business for Russians the day after tommorow

    There is not tomorrow if Russia wont invest into hi-tech, secure own demographics and well being. Lider destroyers cannot prevent war on desert BTW. Unless you share Ms. Psaki view abut US 6th fleet on shores of Belorussia Razz Razz
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue May 08, 2018 10:32 pm

    I doubt Russia will build 12 Liders, Maybe eight but 12 ehhhhh.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed May 09, 2018 12:09 am

    Hole wrote:Russia doesn´t meddle in other countries affairs. It´s the Job of Venezuelans to stop the CIA scum. Same for Arabs. And if they ask for help, there would be no need for carriers. Carriers are only useful for WWII style operations in open water (carrier against carrier) or surpressing third world countries. If Russia decides to build a carrier class (and i have no doubt they will), than it will mainly be for operations against other carriers in a big war.

    Like they didn't meddle in Ukraine in 2014, Syria in 2015 and Libya in 2017?

    Venezuelan army has no chance against US on their own. That's why befriended Russians and made a thing called alliance, pretty popular thing since WWII, perhaps you've heard of it. The only nation still living in isolation has started to give up so you should modernise your foreign policy ideals.

    Russians don't have to build carrier to fight other carriers, supersonics is much cheaper way. Carriers make a blue water navy that can access any part of the planet and is a constant threat to US dominance.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 09, 2018 1:15 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:..... a thing called alliance, pretty popular thing since WWII, perhaps you've heard of it. ......

    Russians definitely know about that thing called alliance. They also know how their allies have a habbit of routinely and repeatedly fucking them over.


    verkhoturye51 wrote:.....Russians don't have to build carrier to fight other carriers, supersonics is much cheaper way. Carriers make a blue water navy that can access any part of the planet and is a constant threat to US dominance.

    Why should they threaten US dominance? There is no money in that.

    They have their own corner of the planet to worry about, rest of it is someone else's problem.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 09, 2018 3:09 am

    Last time I checked those types of mass-quote spam-posts were cause for getting banned.

    Does not apply in this case.

    It would apply if someone reposted an entire conversation from a thread to reply to only one part of the reposted conversation.

    But posting examples... even if annoying is relevant.

    Without CVN you don't have ability to influence distant regions. It's not about being world cop, it's called interest protecting and shifting monopolar to multipolar world. That's Russia and it's certainly not a defensive UN peacemaker afraid to step in Ukraine or Syria to protect civilians.

    More importantly operating ships without a carrier is like operating ground troops without taking the air force with you.

    The Russian Army took Su-24s and Su-25s and Su-30s and Su-34s and Su-35s and even PAK FA and MiG-29s and more importantly A-50Us and Tu-214s and Il-20s to Syria... why would the Russian Navy not take some fighter aircraft and AWACS platforms with them too?

    Believe it or not, Africa is the continent of the future, full of resources like oil and food, over which wars will be faught in the future.

    They need investment and trade to develop and grow before the imperial west screws them and chews them up and spits them out.

    A chance for Russia to grow and develop independent of the west and its strings and claws.

    New Zealand, dont forget about New Zealand - we need to save GarryB

    Bet your ass don't forget about me... I expect to be forward supported... a complete Ratnik II set to start with... as you haven't decided on the standard rifle then you need to give me one of each... AK-12, AK-15, etc etc...

    still you need to live to this moment. If you overspend on military people start going on streets in Russia.

    Exactly right... finalising the design in perhaps 2020, and laying it down 2022-2023 and having it put in the water in 2028... fully operational perhaps 2032 and lay down number two in 2026 ready perhaps in 2036, and with a serious upgrade to the K sometime in that time frame with nuke propulsion and perhaps em cats too...

    And CNN can't BS Americans how rusty and bankrupt Russian army is and their interests in Ukraine don't have to be respected and Donald will be elected again instead of Killary.

    CNN are going to bullshit, whether Russia is strong or weak... and the sheep that watch CNN don't want the truth anyway... they just want to see Russia is worse off than they are... even when it isn't true.

    I doubt Russia will build 12 Liders, Maybe eight but 12 ehhhhh.

    8 would be a better number... they are never going to have a huge fleet, they need to be smart about what they want, what they need, and what they can afford.

    Of course with pretty much every ship having UKSK launchers their need for a lot of ships is reduced.

    Russians don't have to build carrier to fight other carriers, supersonics is much cheaper way. Carriers make a blue water navy that can access any part of the planet and is a constant threat to US dominance.

    Carriers for the Russians are about having an extra layer of sight and reach... an extra defence ring that can see as well as hit.

    In comparison to an S-400 system on a ship, an aircraft can go out and investigate a blip on a radar screen and determine if the blip is a danger or a target.

    Without aircraft, airliners will get shot down... and mistakes will be made.


    For the commander of a surface group of ships being able to send out recon aircraft means much better knowledge of what is nearby, and the chance to get more information if needed... rather than just being able to kill or choosing not to kill.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed May 09, 2018 9:39 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Russians definitely know about that thing called alliance. They also know how their allies have a habbit of routinely and repeatedly fucking them over.

    So the solution is Norh Korea style isolationism. And I can't think of any recent betreyal anyway. Nazi Germany in 1939 wasn't really strategic ally, anti-Russian feelings in Eastern Europe in 1990 were even smaller surprise.

    PapaDragon wrote:Why should they threaten US dominance? There is no money in that.

    They have their own corner of the planet to worry about, rest of it is someone else's problem.

    Austrian catholic priest said after the WWII: when the Nazis came for the Jews, I was quiet because I wasn't a Jew, when they came for the communists I kept quiet because I wasn't a communist and when they came for the priests there was no one left to fight for me.

    Russians could let Ukraine and Georgia to NATO and hell, why not even Chechnya, like they let fall the rest of Eastern Europe. But they are learning the importance of allies once again and adopting Cold-war-like thinking of fighting for every ally. Like giant Iran fights for tiny Syria. Trust me they will never get billions back but they have a corridor to the Mediterranean, which has existential importance for national survival. It's called geostrategy.

    GarryB wrote:Carriers for the Russians are about having an extra layer of sight and reach... an extra defence ring that can see as well as hit.

    I think we're focusing only on the tactical meaning of carrier in the war, but missing the strategic value in the peace. There's no better way of showing commitment to defend socialist Latin America states, than sending Kuznetsov and Pyotr down there on the drills. Kind of a war deterrent that could have a domino effect on G20 meetings, forcing the West to respect Russian interests and easying the construction of gas pipeline to EU, ending the sanctions.
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    Post  Hole on Wed May 09, 2018 10:55 am

    Meddling is when you do something without the permition of the other country.

    Doing business with 80% of the world population is isolationism? Classic western thinking. "Only we are important. We are the international community, Forget all the brown and black people."

    Russia can reach Africa over land and air.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed May 09, 2018 11:47 am

    Like Russia asked for permission "government" in Chechnia or junta in Kiev? Or democratically elected rebel government in Syria?

    Things aren't black and white, sometimes you support the rebels and sometimes the government, but you have to do something...even UN have white helmets. If you don't do anything Rwanda genocide can happen again.

    Military intervension in Syria without ships? Trucks and planes are slow, expensive and dependent on Turkish good will.
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    Post  kumbor on Wed May 09, 2018 12:28 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Like Russia asked for permission "government" in Chechnia or junta in Kiev? Or democratically elected rebel government in Syria?

    Things aren't black and white, sometimes you support the rebels and sometimes the government, but you have to do something...even UN have white helmets. If you don't do anything Rwanda genocide can happen again.

    Military intervension in Syria without ships? Trucks and planes are slow, expensive and dependent on Turkish good will.

    Chechnya is a constitutive republic of Russia. It was expressly internal question of Russia how to deal with it, without any permission. There was never "democratically elected rebel government in Syria". The only legal government in Syria is that of Assad! Eastern regions of Ukraine are densely populated with russian ethnicity, russian speaking.

    I don`t know how does it connect with topic on future russian aircraft carriers. It is completely offtopic. Building of a new carrier is not in shipbuilding plans 2018-2025! "Leaders" are also not included.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 09, 2018 12:31 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:.......Austrian catholic priest said after the WWII: when the Nazis came for the Jews, I was quiet because I wasn't a Jew, when they came for the communists I kept quiet because I wasn't a communist and when they came for the priests there was no one left to fight for me....


    Got any more tired worn out cliches to throw around?

    USSR was wiping everyone's ass on it's own dime and look where they are now.

    Money up front or GTFO.
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed May 09, 2018 2:32 pm

    kumbor wrote:I don`t know how does it connect with topic on future russian aircraft carriers. It is completely offtopic. Building of a new carrier is not in shipbuilding plans 2018-2025! "Leaders" are also not included.

    I was arguing that Russia needs carriers for (a threat for) military interventions and that interventions are a-ok even if not everyone agrees with them.

    PapaDragon wrote:USSR was wiping everyone's ass on it's own dime and look where they are now.

    SU would be gone much earlier if they didn't establish an international network of friendly states to overcome isolation of 1917 - 1945. Network that had to be protected with military. Hadn't Russians spent billions to stop US on the first line of defense in N. Korea, N Vietnam, Cuba, the second line of defense in Eastern Europe would be put on pressure and double agents like Yugoslavia, Albania, Romania could be dragged on the West completely. Just imagine the summer of 1968 being as inflitrated with CIA agents as Kiev in 2014.

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