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    Organisation of an Airborne Company

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    Asf

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    Re: Organisation of an Airborne Company

    Post  Asf on Wed May 21, 2014 5:07 pm

    Do you happen to have a reference that would indicate the section size is 8 rather than the previous value of 7? I am, of course, referring to the BMD-based sections
    I don't have any proofs. I rely on words of one trusted russian VDV expert from the internet.

    Look here, it's an RT show about an english-speaking journalist joining russian VDV. 3:20 - you will see dismounting part of BMD squad - 6 men including a sergeant (platoon leader gives them orders). Plus 2 men in BMD. You can see as they move in a three-man fireteams (one with a MG) a bit later.
    I watched this video in English btw, but I can't find it now
    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Organisation of an Airborne Company

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed May 21, 2014 10:19 pm

    Asf wrote:
    Do you happen to have a reference that would indicate the section size is 8 rather than the previous value of 7? I am, of course, referring to the BMD-based sections
    I don't have any proofs. I rely on words of one trusted russian VDV expert from the internet.

    Look here, it's an RT show about an english-speaking journalist joining russian VDV. 3:20 - you will see dismounting part of BMD squad - 6 men including a sergeant (platoon leader gives them orders). Plus 2 men in BMD. You can see as they move in a three-man fireteams (one with a MG) a bit later.
    I watched this video in English btw, but I can't find it now

    Thanks.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Re: Organisation of an Airborne Company

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu May 22, 2014 2:25 am

    Asf wrote:
    Do you happen to have a reference that would indicate the section size is 8 rather than the previous value of 7? I am, of course, referring to the BMD-based sections
    I don't have any proofs. I rely on words of one trusted russian VDV expert from the internet.

    Look here, it's an RT show about an english-speaking journalist joining russian VDV. 3:20 - you will see dismounting part of BMD squad - 6 men including a sergeant (platoon leader gives them orders). Plus 2 men in BMD. You can see as they move in a three-man fireteams (one with a MG) a bit later.
    I watched this video in English btw, but I can't find it now

    Asf,

    Did they say, in the English version of the clip, that the number of the dismounting paratroopers is 6?

    I had seen this clip, in Russian, but do you know how I interpreted the dismount of 6 paratroopers, considering I can't understand much Russian?

    I assumed that the journalist is just an extra and that the section size is still 7. We also know that volume of a BMD (especially for the later ones like BMD-4M) isn't limited by the number of paratroopers in a section, and there is room for occasional needs.

    Of course this aspect is important, as the 7-man section had a lot going for it. Also as the following table (this is a bit old) shows it is asymmetrical and much more complicated and Russian than the 8-man version.

    Section Commander (AKS-74)
    BMD Driver/Mechanic (PM)
    BMD Gunner (AKSU-74)
    Machinegunner (RPKS-74)
    Grenadier (RPG-16D, AKSU-74)
    Rifleman/Assisstant Grenadier (AKS-74)
    Asst Section Commander/"Senior" Rifleman (AKS-74)


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu May 22, 2014 9:26 am; edited 2 times in total
    GarryB
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    Re: Organisation of an Airborne Company

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 22, 2014 3:32 am

    Things can be a bit fuzzy there because the BMDs with turrets have less troop capacity than the dedicated troop carriers with the longer hull and extra wheel and no turret that show a troop capacity of 9 in displays. From memory they are called BTR-DM or something.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Re: Organisation of an Airborne Company

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu May 22, 2014 6:46 am

    GarryB wrote:Things can be a bit fuzzy there because the BMDs with turrets have less troop capacity than the dedicated troop carriers with the longer hull and extra wheel and no turret that show a troop capacity of 9 in displays. From memory they are called BTR-DM or something.

    As their designations imply, BTR-D and BTR-DM are airborne BTRs. The numbers being discussed here refer to BMDs, which are IFVs for airborne mechanized infantry troops.

    A BTR-D isn't used in an airborne mechanized infantry section, it is used in, let's say, an AGL (e.g., AGS-17) section of three AGL teams which would be organic to an airborne mechanized infantry grouping (to a battalion according to some claims; I'm not sure). Asf was discussing a weapons section of a Kord and two reloadable RPG teams, which would use a BTR-D type vehicle.

    To provide some scope here, in the BMP-based mechanized infantry troops, an ATGM section is normally organic to a BMP-2-based mechanized infantry company, and it uses a BMP-2 for its three teams of Metis ATGMs, not a separate type of vehicle, as a BMP-2 is roomy enough for the role.
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    Asf

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    Re: Organisation of an Airborne Company

    Post  Asf on Thu May 22, 2014 10:55 am

    Did they say, in the English version of the clip, that the number of the dismounting paratroopers is 6?
    In video they told nothing interesting to a military geek - it's just a popular show you know. You can only make conclusions from what you see.
    I assumed that the journalist is just an extra
    Nope, he is a common soldier in terms of a show.
    We also know that volume of a BMD (especially for the later ones like BMD-4M) isn't limited by the number of paratroopers in a section, and there is room for occasional needs.
    It's actually has 8 seats for dismount soldiers like a BMP. So there are still two additional seats. In a current motorised infantry BMP - 1 spare seat, as it's 9 man squad now (MG gunner assistant is added due to the weight of PKP/PKM ammo).
    Of course this aspect is important, as the 7-man section had a lot going for it.
    It was a standart for a long time, but VDV experience in Afghanistan and Chechia tell that there is no need for RPG in a squad, and 'troika' (three-man teams) tactics is widely used by VDV since a long time. I've read many articles and reports about small unit tactics during those conflicts - most of they implies on using three-man teams instead of standart two-man teams. You know, typical dismount part of soviet infantry squad (motorised infantry) consisted of a leader, grenadier, assistant grenadier, senior rifleman, rifleman and MG man. It was common to split squad in a two-man teams: squad leader+MG man, grenadier+assistant, senior rifleman+rifleman. Sometimes sqad leaders team was joined with grenadier team forming so called "fire support team" and rifleman team forming "maneuver team". Such disposition is written in the basic russian infantry field manual. It's was not uncommon not to have a rifleman in a section because of personel shortage or air transport capacity limitations (VDV thing, as they are supposed to be transported by planes). But two-man teams are vulnerable to losses - if one of the soldiers is wounded, there is nobody to cover his friend as he tries to pull the wounded one to a cover (other squad members can be separated from a team). Tactical movement of 'troika' is also better because of two men covering, one advancing is better than one men covering, one advansing (twice as many directions can be covered with fire).
    So experience of Afghanistan and Chechia showed VDV officers diasadvantages of 5-man dismounted squad. It's only two two-man teams plus a squad leader on his own, one team is burdened with an RPG-7. VDV rarely equipped they RPG-7s preferring two extra unburdened riflemen and as much one-shot RPOs and RPGs as they could get. Now it's official.

    As I've found, typical modern VDV squad is like:

    Squad leader (AK-74M, one-shot RPG/RPO)
    Machinegunner (PKP/PKM)
    Assistant machinegunner (AK-74M, additional MG ammo)
    Senior gunner/squad leader's assistant (AK-74M with some king of optics or a thermal sights, one-shot RPG/RPO)
    Rifleman (AK-74M with UBGL, one-shot RPG/RPO)
    Rifleman (AK-74M, one-shot RPG/RPO)

    Actually there can be second UBGL, more cools sights (squad leader or MG gunner can take one of those), more RPGs, ect. Sometimes one rifleman can even has an SVD rifle. It's called "supernumerary equipment", which can be demanded by the officer from an armory for required task. It's a common practive in the russian military, VDV as an elite formation has an access to more toys than less elite and more straightforward motorised infantry guys. A spetsnas group (typical spetsnas task-oriented formation, which can vary from a squad-sized unit to a platoon-size unit), for example, demands whatever it sees fit for a mission including silenced weapons, mortars or ATGMs, more guys from another unit, ect.
    As their designations imply, BTR-D and BTR-DM are airborne BTRs
    Don't forget, BTR-D is not for a "combat" squad, only for fire support squads (MANPADs, ATGM squads, weapon squads). What's because all russian infantry  fights with a fire support from their vehicles (not including spetsnas), it's a mainstay tactics, there is no such a thing as a "light infantry" in the Russian Army. Even mountain, airbourne and marine units do have their IFVs and heavily-armed BTRs and jus abandon them in case of an airbourne operation or restrictive terrain, though they can have specific organisation, weapon squads for example, which isn't needed in a basic units due to the fact they isn't supposed to fight without their vehicles (I'm sure about Afganistan, do not know about modern mountain formations). Air-assault brigades were like a light infantry formations, but iirc they did have integral helicopter squadrons (heavily armed btw, as even transport Mi-8 have rockets and MGs), but nowadays all air-assault units have their own BTRs as receive helicopters only if a higher command sees fit. I'm not sure about it, but now 'copters are attached to armies from VVS, and army commanders is in charge of planning an air-assault ("tactical desant" in russian terms) operations. If brigade/battalion level commander finds a need in helicopter transportation, he requests it from his chiefs (unless he has a permanentily-attached squadron already), and the higher command thinks does it have spare 'copters or not.
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    cracker

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    Re: Organisation of an Airborne Company

    Post  cracker on Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:09 pm

    That's fascinating guys

    Also I was looking for such infos back then (2-3 years ago) when I played ARMA 2, with addons. I recreated units, squads, etc in the mission editor, I made motorised infantry and VDV units, usually 6 to 8 men teams, my typical VDV "section" (or how would you call a 3 teams unit?) looked like that:

    *note it's without BMD, so, more like light VDV

    Lead team (8men):
    -Platoon leader (Sgt senior/master), AK-74M w/ 1P29 scope, RShG-2 disposable launcher, PM/PB/APS/PYA pistol
    -Senior rifleman (Corporal), AK-74M w/ GP-25, RPG-26 disposable launcher
    -Machinegunner (Private 1st class), RPK-74M, RPG-26 disposable launcher
    -Grenadier (Private 1st class), AK-74M w/ GP-25, RShG-2 disposable launcher
    -Grenadier (Private 1st class), AK-74M w/ GP-25, RPG-26 disposable launcher
    -Sharpshooter (Corporal), AKMS w/ PBS-1 complex, or AS Val or VSS vintorez, both w/ PSO-1 scope, RPG-26 disposable launcher
    -Rifleman (Private 1st class), AK-74M, RPG-26 disposable launcher
    -Rifleman (Private 2nd class), AK-74M, 200 rds PKP ammo, 1x PG-7VS

    Second team (7men):
    -Team leader (Sgt), AK-74M w/ 1P29 scope, RShG-2 disposable launcher
    -Senior rifleman (Corporal), AK-74M w/ GP-25, RPG-26 disposable launcher
    -Machinegunner (Private 1st class), RPK-74M, RPG-26 disposable launcher
    -Grenadier (Private 1st class), AK-74M w/ GP-25, RShG-2 disposable launcher
    -Grenadier (Private 1st class), AK-74M w/ GP-25, RPG-26 disposable launcher
    -Rifleman (Private 1st class), AK-74M, RPG-26 disposable launcher
    -Rifleman (Private 2nd class), AK-74M, 200 rds PKP ammo, 1x PG-7VL

    Weapons team (7men):
    -Team leader (Sgt), AK-74M w/ 1P29 scope + GP-25, RShG-2 disposable launcher
    -Sniper (Corporal), SVDS, possible secondary weapon like AS val, possible pistol, APS/PYA/PB.
    -Machinegunner (corporal), PKP, 500 rds 7.62 ammo
    -MG assistant (Private 1st class), AK-74M, 400 rds 7.62 ammo
    -Specialist RPG (Private 1st class), RPG-7D2 w/ PGO-7V + 1x PG-7VR 2x PG-7VL, AK-74M (or AKS-74U)
    -RPG assistant (Private 1st class), AK-74M, 1x TBG-7V, 2x OG-7V, 1x PG-7VL
    -Rifleman (Private 2nd class), AK-74M, 100 rds PKP ammo, 2x PG-7VS

    Thats a total of 22 men for a section, with following weapons:

    1x 7.62mm PKP Light machine gun with 1400 rounds carried by various men in the section
    2x 5.45mm RPK-74M Light machine guns
    1x 7.62mm SVDS sniper rifle
    2x 9mm AS-val special rifle
    1x 7.62mm AKMS rifle (possibly), configured in silenced complex with PBS-1 device and ~3 magazines of subsonic ammo (and ~5 of normal ammo)
    1x 5.45mm AKS-74U rifle (possibly)
    1x 40mm RPG-7D2 (D/D1/D3 possible) rocket launcher, scoped, with 11 rockets of various types carried by the whole section
    14x disposable rocket launchers of AT or multipurpose type, 72mm types
    17x 5.45mm AK-74M rifles, some with standard scope
    2x pistols of various types available
    7x 40mm GP-25 grenade launchers

    Add to this approximately ~8 magazines of 5.45 per men, including 4-5 45 rounds magazine for RPK gunners, probably 4 magazines for AS val/ VSS user (+ paper box of ammo), 2 to 4 hand grenades RGO / RGN or older RGD-5 / F-1 per man, 10-20 VOG-25 grenades for users of GP-25. Several men may carry MON-50 AP mines (claymore type), and basic destructive ordnance like TROTYL (TNT) blocks (200 and 400g pieces), or even more modern PVV-5/7/12 plastic explosive charges (C4 like, RDX based), both types being detonated by standard KD-8 detonator and cord-fuze.

    I think it represents quite well the equipment of VDV units, heavy and powerful.

    *AK-74M may be substitued by AKS-74 sometimes
    *Type of RPG-7 rockets was stated for example, might be different ammounts of different types. PG-7VS is "low standard AT", PG-7VL is "high standard AT". PG-7VR is "dedicated AT", OG-7V is frag grenade, TBG-7V multipurpose HE-Blast grenade.
    *Type of disposable RPG is for example, might also be some older RPG-22 instead of the 26, and also can be MRO light grenades instead of RSHG-2. May also be in service heavier types RPG-27/RSHG-1.
    *GP-25 may be replaced by GP-30/30M/34.
    *May be more optics on AK-74M, more 1P29 per unit, or even other types of sights like 1P63/kobra red dots or 1P77/78 optics, sometimes even PSO-1.
    *not precised, but Night vision optics are issued too, maybe 2-3 per section max. Type is mostly 1PN93 or 1PN100, might still be 1PN51 and 58. These optics are usable on any weapon carried by the group.
    *AS val and VSS are quite common inside VDV and regular army recce units. Possible to have one or two per section for stealth, replacing the aging AKMS with PBS-1. Most of the time, AS/VSS will come standard with PSO-1 scopes.
    *Pistols may be carried by specialist soldiers, or leading men of units, usually come from the regimental armory simple PM (makarov) or PB (silenced Makarov derivative). Might also be more specialised APS (stetchkin autopistol), APB (silenced stetchkin), or modern PYA (yarigin pistol).
    *RPK-74M might be substitued by older RPKS-74 or even 7.62mm RPKS. Might simply not exist and instead be a man with AK.
    *PKP might be substitued by older PKM.
    *SVDS usually not substitued by standard SVD, but, possible.

    Russian army put a lot of efforts to make VDV a type of well armed infantry.

    Compared to CIS VDV like ukraine, which are mostly light infantry with basically only AKS-74 rifles in the whole section, and probably a weapons team at platoon level.

    *RPG-16 dedicated VDV RPG is no longer used in general, RPG-7D is more useful with many types of grenades.
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    steve501

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    Re: Organisation of an Airborne Company

    Post  steve501 on Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:10 pm

    Hi all - sorry I have been away for a bit. I was wondering has the company organisation changed - does anyone know the current "paper" Airborne Company organisation
    Cheers
    Steve
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    steve501

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    Organisation of 2012 -2014 VDV Airborne company

    Post  steve501 on Tue May 10, 2016 9:24 pm

    Can anyone please help I am looking for information of a 2012 + VDV airborne company including number of men and weapons. Can anyone confirm if an Air Assault company  is organised the same
    Any help greatly appreciated

    Thanks

    Steve


    Last edited by steve501 on Wed May 11, 2016 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Incorrect request)

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