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    Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:19 pm

    Him and his clan hasnt bent over yet with the Ukraine issue as the sanctions are still mounting. I think he knows for most of Ukraine, it was too late sometime back in 2004. But the Syria mess I am pissed off about. He could be doing more.

    Good thing is, not everyone in his clique are 5th coloumist traitors like the economics minister. There are still those who want to really push back at US. Hopefully they end up with more power.

    Hell, if all those rumors of Russians in E.Ukraine are true, I would give mad props to Russia for supporting the rebels in such a way. And some of it definately is true. But Assad is in dire need of help and he has gone to Moscow multiple times now. Since he hasnt denounced Russia yet, seems Russia is doing something.

    But I always feel that playing mr nice guy on Camera is just showing weakness.

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:48 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:People say about Syria. Ukraine was really the worrying sign that some missed due to the acquisition of Crimea.
    I would not complain if there were signs of Russia strengthening but there aren't enough of them.
    Economy is the constant patient of Russia, international politics will not ever improve if you fail to show face and military complex grows more to a modern effective force ready to protect
    interests against middle to small powers like France or UK than a platform to fight with the best in the world.
    Russian people still put the bar way too low comparing with the tiny declining western European nations whom they still can't surpass.
    It's quite telling that Russian GDP PPP per capita it's still comfortably below Greek GDP despite a disastrous decade, a tiny poor country, isolated from EU mainland,
    quite backward, with no development plan, with no natural resources being the poorest nation in Eurozone. 25 years after the collapse of Soviet Union this is an abysmal record.
    In historic comparison Carthage was already besieging Rome 25 years after the end of the first Punic war and Hannibal was annihilating one Roman army after the other....

    And of course we all know what happened to Carthage in the end...
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:54 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:People say about Syria. Ukraine was really the worrying sign that some missed due to the acquisition of Crimea.
    I would not complain if there were signs of Russia strengthening but there aren't enough of them.
    Economy is the constant patient of Russia, international politics will not ever improve if you fail to show face and military complex grows more to a modern effective force ready to protect
    interests against middle to small powers like France or UK than a platform to fight with the best in the world.
    Russian people still put the bar way too low comparing with the tiny declining western European nations whom they still can't surpass.
    It's quite telling that Russian GDP PPP per capita it's still comfortably below Greek GDP despite a disastrous decade, a tiny poor country, isolated from EU mainland,
    quite backward, with no development plan, with no natural resources being the poorest nation in Eurozone. 25 years after the collapse of Soviet Union this is an abysmal record.
    In historic comparison Carthage was already besieging Rome 25 years after the end of the first Punic war and Hannibal was annihilating one Roman army after the other....

    And yet, if it wasnt for EU's and US banking gimmicks and tricks, Greeces gdp per capita wouldnt be nearly as inflated if they had to resort to a real economy like Russia, then it would be less than Russias gdp per capita, unless they grossly over inflate prices.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:44 pm

    You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:49 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.

    Yeah, how is that gdp per caputa being so high doing for you guys? Oh wait, you lost your banks to Germany. And your nation, including nearly every western nation, is over 100% in debt.

    Who would have figured forever borrowing and printing money makes you appear rich on paper?
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    max steel

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  max steel on Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:39 pm

    Cyprus has provided base to russia . Get your facts updated swede. Who will destroy s-300 ? With russians onborad it will become a tussle like it happened in 2013. US will be the first one to retract if Russia dares.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:56 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.

    Yeah, how is that gdp per caputa being so high doing for you guys? Oh wait, you lost your banks to Germany. And your nation, including nearly every western nation, is over 100% in debt.

    Who would have figured forever borrowing and printing money makes you appear rich on paper?


    Despite this all and a 30% official unemployment average Greek is richer than the average Russian which explains why we still have a positive flow of immigrants from Russia which kinda justifies my argument that Russia is not recovering like it should.

    Past examples have shown (Carthage, Third Reich, Napoleonic France, AustroHungary, Russia during the 30s, Athens, Macedonia (the real one obviously), post war Germany and Japan economically and countless more) that recovery time is 20 or 30 years and full strength if no more can be gained after tragic loses. Russia's trajectories tell a different story in all including demographics. In addition the birth boom following all the aforementioned disasters is simply not there.

    Don't make me treat you like an idiot, we all know that, speaking about real economy, industrial output of Russia is not even a tenth of what USSR had, don't make me give specific numbers you are knowledgeable enough. Even oil production, which received a national effort to rise again, is nothing more than to the 80s levels, with 80s infrastructure, 80s extraction techniques and the old Soviet planning.

    I don't know whether this is gonna change soon, but honestly Russia grows to a second tier status if not less with the picture we have after the Georgian war and the economic crisis, circumstances rosy for a ambitious power nonetheless.

    Prince Darling

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  Prince Darling on Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:09 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.

    Yeah, how is that gdp per caputa being so high doing for you guys? Oh wait, you lost your banks to Germany. And your nation, including nearly every western nation, is over 100% in debt.

    Who would have figured forever borrowing and printing money makes you appear rich on paper?


    Despite this all and a 30% official unemployment average Greek is richer than the average Russian which explains why we still have a positive flow of immigrants from Russia which kinda justifies my argument that Russia is not recovering like it should.

    Past examples have shown (Carthage, Third Reich, Napoleonic France, AustroHungary, Russia during the 30s, Athens, Macedonia (the real one obviously), post war Germany and Japan economically and countless more) that recovery time is 20 or 30 years and full strength if no more can be gained after tragic loses. Russia's trajectories tell a different story in all including demographics. In addition the birth boom following all the aforementioned disasters is simply not there.

    Don't make me treat you like an idiot, we all know that, speaking about real economy, industrial output of Russia is not even a tenth of what USSR had, don't make me give specific numbers you are knowledgeable enough. Even oil production, which received a national effort to rise again, is nothing more than to the 80s levels, with 80s infrastructure, 80s extraction techniques and the old Soviet planning.

    I don't know whether this is gonna change soon, but honestly Russia grows to a second tier status if not less with the picture we have after the Georgian war and the economic crisis, circumstances rosy for a ambitious power nonetheless.

    so seeing how russia accounted for about half of the soviet population (give or take a little), to be at one tenth of the max USSR number would mean that the GDP per capita in Russia today is about 5 times lower than during USSR times.

    please dont go into, i didnt mean oil production or services
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:22 pm

    So what do the geniuses in this thread think Russia should do in response to the US escelation against Syria?

    Threaten the US with war?

    Is that really what you think Russia should do?

    Prince Darling

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  Prince Darling on Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:31 pm

    flamming_python wrote:So what do the geniuses in this thread think Russia should do in response to the US escelation against Syria?

    Threaten the US with war?

    Is that really what you think Russia should do?

    this paratrooper story is ok, everyone knows it wont happen but its basically saying if you start bombing government forces under the guise of protecting the US trained syrian mercs, we are sending in our troops, than one wrong bomb dropped and you got a nuclear war.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:48 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.

    Yeah, how is that gdp per caputa being so high doing for you guys? Oh wait, you lost your banks to Germany. And your nation, including nearly every western nation, is over 100% in debt.

    Who would have figured forever borrowing and printing money makes you appear rich on paper?


    Despite this all and a 30% official unemployment average Greek is richer than the average Russian which explains why we still have a positive flow of immigrants from Russia which kinda justifies my argument that Russia is not recovering like it should.

    Past examples have shown (Carthage, Third Reich, Napoleonic France, AustroHungary, Russia during the 30s, Athens, Macedonia (the real one obviously), post war Germany and Japan economically and countless more) that recovery time is 20 or 30 years and full strength if no more can be gained after tragic loses. Russia's trajectories tell a different story in all including demographics. In addition the birth boom following all the aforementioned disasters is simply not there.

    Don't make me treat you like an idiot, we all know that, speaking about real economy, industrial output of Russia is not even a tenth of what USSR had, don't make me give specific numbers you are knowledgeable enough. Even oil production, which received a national effort to rise again, is nothing more than to the 80s levels, with 80s infrastructure, 80s extraction techniques and the old Soviet planning.

    I don't know whether this is gonna change soon, but honestly Russia grows to a second tier status if not less with the picture we have after the Georgian war and the economic crisis, circumstances rosy for a ambitious power nonetheless.

    Is that why Russia is in so much trouble like greece? Oh wait. The news speaks for themselves. And Russia is second largest destination for migrants thank you very much. Not greece. Population growth is in the positives and guess what? No bank runs either. You proven yourself time and time again of spewing bullshit like Russia dosnt make anything which we all gladly proved you wrong.

    While you are at it, show us your shipbuilding industry? Oh yeah, you dont have one. How about aerospace? Oops. Automotive? Nope. You do have olive oil though.

    If greece fell back to a real economy and not some sort of banking scheme bs, then I guarantee you wouldnt be talking.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:04 pm

    flamming_python wrote:So what do the geniuses in this thread think Russia should do in response to the US escelation against Syria?

    Threaten the US with war?

    Is that really what you think Russia should do?

    War? No. But to supply Assad with what he needs to deter US and Israel. Maybe even send pilots/aircrafst for air support.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:14 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:So what do the geniuses in this thread think Russia should do in response to the US escelation against Syria?

    Threaten the US with war?

    Is that really what you think Russia should do?

    War? No. But to supply Assad with what he needs to deter US and Israel. Maybe even send pilots/aircrafst for air support.


    Aggreed, make it for US same like in Korea or Vietnam where russian pilots would shoot down US jets, or better get SAM's and showcase and train syrians to protect their own skies from such world abominations like US. Just right out of bad PR the US will avoid trying to bomb as soon they relies russians are operating SAM's no more F-22, they will immidiatley retreat them from there to avoid any kind of bad PR since the US doctrine since decades is to deny any losses they can deny, when russians shoot down their jets, nothing can be denied, with todays times every idiot has a phone with good cameras, even kids running around with such phones. The US would not want that and would invest more in proxy mercenaries they call "modest rebels" or ISIS, both are financed and controlled. They are much easier to deal alone, when no air strikes are hitting Syrian established and fortified positions. They do not strike randomly but are striking there where they see it necessary for terrorists to progress and overthrow Asad, so this would help without direct involvement or losses of russians and after US black ops and mercenaries are officially in ukraine, russia can do wtf it wants.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:01 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:So what do the geniuses in this thread think Russia should do in response to the US escelation against Syria?

    Threaten the US with war?

    Is that really what you think Russia should do?

    War? No. But to supply Assad with what he needs to deter US and Israel. Maybe even send pilots/aircrafst for air support.

    And what makes you so sure Russia won't do that, hypothetically?
    Because Russia isn't kicking and screaming and making threats before the US has even gone through with it? What kind of country does that? If you're not calm and calculating when it comes to politics, you'll be run circles around by those who can manipulate the game.

    You guys are all crying foul, it's only 1 announcement and negotiations have kicked into high-gear since.
    Really, some people should learn how diplomacy works - we are not privy to the discussions happening behind closed doors so quit the hysteria, it's pointless.

    To be honest though there's not much else Russia can do to help Syria that it hasn't already done. They've supplied Syria with everything they need; but the SAF is down to the wire, take a look at any pic - they look more like a makeshift African militia now than an organized military.

    If America unleashes a full-scale bombing campaign - they won't collapse, the country will be there; but no air defence, extra aircraft or air defences sent will be able to deter US or Israeli bombing. In fact anything Russia will send will get destroyed pretty quick; Syrian AD and supporting AF has been gutted by defections and personnel transferals to front-line units since the start of the war, has been routinely penetrated by Israeli strikes even in its better days, and before the war wasn't particularly modern or impressive either.

    Russia sending anything will be a waste; it's the same as the US hypothetically trying to shore up Ukrainian Air Defence with Patriot systems and some US pilots - won't fly, they'll all end up as burning wrecks in the case of a full-scale Russian attack and that's why neither the US nor Russia bothers with such things in this day and age.

    The idea is to build a viable air-defence network before you are targetted for regime-change and face an insurrection from a bunch of terrorists.
    If America attacks Syria, it will certainly make Russian air-defence systems more popular around the world, and will of course serve to ultimately isolate the US further from the rest of the world. But that's their problem.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:04 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:So what do the geniuses in this thread think Russia should do in response to the US escelation against Syria?

    Threaten the US with war?

    Is that really what you think Russia should do?

    War? No. But to supply Assad with what he needs to deter US and Israel. Maybe even send pilots/aircrafst for air support.

    And what makes you think Russia won't do that?

    You guys are all crying foul, it's only 1 announcement and negotiations have kicked into high-gear since.

    To be honest though there's not much else Russia can do to help Syria that it hasn't already done. They've supplied Syria with everything they need; but the SAF is down to the wire, take a look at any pic - they look more like a makeshift African militia now than an organized military.

    If America unleashes a full-scale bombing campaign - they won't collapse, the country will be there; but no air defence, extra aircraft or air defences sent will be able to deter US or Israeli bombing. In fact anything Russia will send will get destroyed pretty quick; Syrian AD and supporting AF has been gutted by defections and personnel transferals to front-line units since the start of the war, has been routinely penetrated by Israeli strikes even in its better days, and before the war wasn't particularly modern or impressive either.

    Russia sending anything will be a waste; it's the same as the US hypothetically trying to shore up Ukrainian Air Defence with Patriot systems and some US pilots - won't fly, they'll all end up as burning wrecks in the case of a full-scale Russian attack and that's why neither the US nor Russia bothers with such things in this day and age.

    The idea is to build a viable air-defence network before you are targetted for regime-change and face an insurrection from a bunch of terrorists.
    If America attacks Syria, it will certainly make Russian air-defence systems more popular around the world, and will of course serve to ultimately isolate the US further from the rest of the world. But that's their problem.

    Well, as long as Russia has pilots and fighter jets flying to provide security of Assads part of Syria Airspace, as well as air defence systems, then it will force USA to think twice before doing something stupid.

    I say that maybe partitioning off Syria is not such a bad idea anymore for Assad. Simply put, have Russia help them build a wall that separates the ISIS held area and let the rebels, ISIS and Kurds fight each other. Then pockets of rebels in the Assad region, snuff them off by assisting Assad and let the other regions kill each other off and just build up Assads area economically/militarily.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:26 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.

    Yeah, how is that gdp per caputa being so high doing for you guys? Oh wait, you lost your banks to Germany. And your nation, including nearly every western nation, is over 100% in debt.

    Who would have figured forever borrowing and printing money makes you appear rich on paper?


    Despite this all and a 30% official unemployment average Greek is richer than the average Russian which explains why we still have a positive flow of immigrants from Russia which kinda justifies my argument that Russia is not recovering like it should.

    Past examples have shown (Carthage, Third Reich, Napoleonic France, AustroHungary, Russia during the 30s, Athens, Macedonia (the real one obviously), post war Germany and Japan economically and countless more) that recovery time is 20 or 30 years and full strength if no more can be gained after tragic loses. Russia's trajectories tell a different story in all including demographics. In addition the birth boom following all the aforementioned disasters is simply not there.

    Don't make me treat you like an idiot, we all know that, speaking about real economy, industrial output of Russia is not even a tenth of what USSR had, don't make me give specific numbers you are knowledgeable enough. Even oil production, which received a national effort to rise again, is nothing more than to the 80s levels, with 80s infrastructure, 80s extraction techniques and the old Soviet planning.

    I don't know whether this is gonna change soon, but honestly Russia grows to a second tier status if not less with the picture we have after the Georgian war and the economic crisis, circumstances rosy for a ambitious power nonetheless.

    Is that why Russia is in so much trouble like greece? Oh wait. The news speaks for themselves. And Russia is second largest destination for migrants thank you very much. Not greece. Population growth is in the positives and guess what? No bank runs either. You proven yourself time and time again of spewing bullshit like Russia dosnt make anything which we all gladly proved you wrong.

    While you are at it, show us your shipbuilding industry? Oh yeah, you dont have one. How about aerospace? Oops. Automotive? Nope. You do have olive oil though.

    If greece fell back to a real economy and not some sort of banking scheme bs, then I guarantee you wouldnt be talking.


    You really don't frustrate me it's only that you have no idea about economics. The problem is that every single reply of yours require a new introductory course. Please refrain in the future from replying if you have no arguments, I am not the one who likes to reply with lengthy posts and there is no reason for the misinformation you unintentionally(?) spread. If you think everything is fine give the example and return back in Russia you will be one of very very few who crosses the Atlantic to the opposite direction.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:28 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.

    Yeah, how is that gdp per caputa being so high doing for you guys? Oh wait, you lost your banks to Germany. And your nation, including nearly every western nation, is over 100% in debt.

    Who would have figured forever borrowing and printing money makes you appear rich on paper?


    Despite this all and a 30% official unemployment average Greek is richer than the average Russian which explains why we still have a positive flow of immigrants from Russia which kinda justifies my argument that Russia is not recovering like it should.

    Past examples have shown (Carthage, Third Reich, Napoleonic France, AustroHungary, Russia during the 30s, Athens, Macedonia (the real one obviously), post war Germany and Japan economically and countless more) that recovery time is 20 or 30 years and full strength if no more can be gained after tragic loses. Russia's trajectories tell a different story in all including demographics. In addition the birth boom following all the aforementioned disasters is simply not there.

    Don't make me treat you like an idiot, we all know that, speaking about real economy, industrial output of Russia is not even a tenth of what USSR had, don't make me give specific numbers you are knowledgeable enough. Even oil production, which received a national effort to rise again, is nothing more than to the 80s levels, with 80s infrastructure, 80s extraction techniques and the old Soviet planning.

    I don't know whether this is gonna change soon, but honestly Russia grows to a second tier status if not less with the picture we have after the Georgian war and the economic crisis, circumstances rosy for a ambitious power nonetheless.

    Is that why Russia is in so much trouble like greece? Oh wait. The news speaks for themselves. And Russia is second largest destination for migrants thank you very much. Not greece. Population growth is in the positives and guess what? No bank runs either. You proven yourself time and time again of spewing bullshit like Russia dosnt make anything which we all gladly proved you wrong.

    While you are at it, show us your shipbuilding industry? Oh yeah, you dont have one. How about aerospace? Oops. Automotive? Nope. You do have olive oil though.

    If greece fell back to a real economy and not some sort of banking scheme bs, then I guarantee you wouldnt be talking.


    You really don't frustrate me it's only that you have no idea about economics. The problem is that every single reply of yours require a new introductory course. Please refrain in the future from replying if you have no arguments, I am not the one who likes to reply with lengthy posts and there is no reason for the misinformation you unintentionally(?) spread. If you think everything is fine give the example and return back in Russia you will be one of very very few who crosses the Atlantic to the opposite direction.

    Really?

    Go to the oil and gas thread.  You were proven wrong there as well.  You have failed to provide links BTW, KVS though on the other hand made you look foolishly stupid.

    BTW, I can provide links too. Good thing I can look for the data too. Pray tell, what is the misinformation?

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russia-the-worlds-second-largest-immigration-haven-11053 - second largest immigration country

    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PETR.RT.ZS - World Bank data on Oil dependency on GDP (14% BTW)
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:33 pm

    Prince Darling wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.

    Yeah, how is that gdp per caputa being so high doing for you guys? Oh wait, you lost your banks to Germany. And your nation, including nearly every western nation, is over 100% in debt.

    Who would have figured forever borrowing and printing money makes you appear rich on paper?


    Despite this all and a 30% official unemployment average Greek is richer than the average Russian which explains why we still have a positive flow of immigrants from Russia which kinda justifies my argument that Russia is not recovering like it should.

    Past examples have shown (Carthage, Third Reich, Napoleonic France, AustroHungary, Russia during the 30s, Athens, Macedonia (the real one obviously), post war Germany and Japan economically and countless more) that recovery time is 20 or 30 years and full strength if no more can be gained after tragic loses. Russia's trajectories tell a different story in all including demographics. In addition the birth boom following all the aforementioned disasters is simply not there.

    Don't make me treat you like an idiot, we all know that, speaking about real economy, industrial output of Russia is not even a tenth of what USSR had, don't make me give specific numbers you are knowledgeable enough. Even oil production, which received a national effort to rise again, is nothing more than to the 80s levels, with 80s infrastructure, 80s extraction techniques and the old Soviet planning.

    I don't know whether this is gonna change soon, but honestly Russia grows to a second tier status if not less with the picture we have after the Georgian war and the economic crisis, circumstances rosy for a ambitious power nonetheless.

    so seeing how russia accounted for about half of the soviet population (give or take a little), to be at one tenth of the max USSR number would mean that the GDP per capita in Russia today is about 5 times lower than during USSR times.

    please dont go into, i didnt mean oil production or services


    Mate, please, in order to compete in a plain economic discussion you need for starters to understand the very basic economic definitions. I spoke about industrial output not gdp.
    Just look the productivity numbers, in the military complex for starters which was the biggest industry of USSR and the main topic of this forum.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:35 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.

    Yeah, how is that gdp per caputa being so high doing for you guys? Oh wait, you lost your banks to Germany. And your nation, including nearly every western nation, is over 100% in debt.

    Who would have figured forever borrowing and printing money makes you appear rich on paper?


    Despite this all and a 30% official unemployment average Greek is richer than the average Russian which explains why we still have a positive flow of immigrants from Russia which kinda justifies my argument that Russia is not recovering like it should.

    Past examples have shown (Carthage, Third Reich, Napoleonic France, AustroHungary, Russia during the 30s, Athens, Macedonia (the real one obviously), post war Germany and Japan economically and countless more) that recovery time is 20 or 30 years and full strength if no more can be gained after tragic loses. Russia's trajectories tell a different story in all including demographics. In addition the birth boom following all the aforementioned disasters is simply not there.

    Don't make me treat you like an idiot, we all know that, speaking about real economy, industrial output of Russia is not even a tenth of what USSR had, don't make me give specific numbers you are knowledgeable enough. Even oil production, which received a national effort to rise again, is nothing more than to the 80s levels, with 80s infrastructure, 80s extraction techniques and the old Soviet planning.

    I don't know whether this is gonna change soon, but honestly Russia grows to a second tier status if not less with the picture we have after the Georgian war and the economic crisis, circumstances rosy for a ambitious power nonetheless.

    so seeing how russia accounted for about half of the soviet population (give or take a little), to be at one tenth of the max USSR number would mean that the GDP per capita in Russia today is about 5 times lower than during USSR times.

    please dont go into, i didnt mean oil production or services


    Mate, please, in order to compete in a plain economic discussion you need for starters to understand the very basic economic definitions. I spoke about industrial output not gdp.
    Just look the productivity numbers, in the military complex for starters which was the biggest industry of USSR and the main topic of this forum.

    Look at the other threads instead of blatantly derailing this one.  Wanna talk of economics? go to the other threads.  Where once again, KVS made you look like an idiot.

    BTw, here is on military industrial complex:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Russia

    You will see how much they have earned out of it too over the years.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:36 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:So what do the geniuses in this thread think Russia should do in response to the US escelation against Syria?

    Threaten the US with war?

    Is that really what you think Russia should do?

    War? No. But to supply Assad with what he needs to deter US and Israel. Maybe even send pilots/aircrafst for air support.

    And what makes you think Russia won't do that?

    You guys are all crying foul, it's only 1 announcement and negotiations have kicked into high-gear since.

    To be honest though there's not much else Russia can do to help Syria that it hasn't already done. They've supplied Syria with everything they need; but the SAF is down to the wire, take a look at any pic - they look more like a makeshift African militia now than an organized military.

    If America unleashes a full-scale bombing campaign - they won't collapse, the country will be there; but no air defence, extra aircraft or air defences sent will be able to deter US or Israeli bombing. In fact anything Russia will send will get destroyed pretty quick; Syrian AD and supporting AF has been gutted by defections and personnel transferals to front-line units since the start of the war, has been routinely penetrated by Israeli strikes even in its better days, and before the war wasn't particularly modern or impressive either.

    Russia sending anything will be a waste; it's the same as the US hypothetically trying to shore up Ukrainian Air Defence with Patriot systems and some US pilots - won't fly, they'll all end up as burning wrecks in the case of a full-scale Russian attack and that's why neither the US nor Russia bothers with such things in this day and age.

    The idea is to build a viable air-defence network before you are targetted for regime-change and face an insurrection from a bunch of terrorists.
    If America attacks Syria, it will certainly make Russian air-defence systems more popular around the world, and will of course serve to ultimately isolate the US further from the rest of the world. But that's their problem.

    Well, as long as Russia has pilots and fighter jets flying to provide security of Assads part of Syria Airspace, as well as air defence systems, then it will force USA to think twice before doing something stupid.

    What will it force them to think twice about? What if they think twice and do it anyway? What position will that leave Russia in then? A choice between starting WW3 and backing-out in humiliation? Hardly a mastermind political move there. Some real political wizards on RDF we have.

    When US pilots fly into Syrian Airspace, are the Russians supposed to engage them? If not, then what is the deal with this whole game? Sounds like a recipee for disaster if anything; what if some US pilot looses his cohesion and shoots down a Russian plane that is on an intercept course towards him?

    And where are the Russian pilots supposed to be based anyhow?
    Are there any Syrian airbases even left anymore that aren't under seige or can at least guarantee a reasonable level of security from visiting suicide bombers, bomb trucks, technical raids and MANPADs?
    Because you know, I don't think there are.

    This is the sort of game you might play when it comes to defending your own airspace and borders; because you have no choice, or your ally's - yet Syria is not a Russian ally and to make them one or treat them as one would be a mistake. The point of military alliances is to mutually enhance military security; yet an alliance with Syria will get Russia only insecurity and the very real potential of being dumped into a much broader conflict that it has no interest in, WW1 style.

    Russia has actual military allies - Belarus, Armenia, Kazakhstan, etc... that it can actually guarantee the security of, because they are on Russia's borders and Russia can project plenty of force there; and more over - it makes sense to form a military alliance with them and form a unified defensive zone. That's not the case for Syria though. No-one is going to risk a nuclear war over the security of an already war-town Middle Eastern republic and for good reason. Even Israel never actually got any direct guarantees from the US in its wars with its neighbours; it was always fighting by itself.

    I say that maybe partitioning off Syria is not such a bad idea anymore for Assad.  Simply put, have Russia help them build a wall that separates the ISIS held area and let the rebels, ISIS and Kurds fight each other.  Then pockets of rebels in the Assad region, snuff them off by assisting Assad and let the other regions kill each other off and just build up Assads area economically/militarily.

    If you really want to help then how about bombing the hell out of ISIS/rebels/anti-Assad Kurds.

    If the US starts bombing Assad, Russia starts bombing Assad's enemies - this is an assymetric response, and not without its risks and expenses but at least far more sane then trying to rush-fortify Syria in the moments before an American bombing campaign, using the lives of your own personnel and billions of dollars worth of equipment as the bargaining chips in a bluff that could have the potential to escelate to WW3.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:43 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.

    Yeah, how is that gdp per caputa being so high doing for you guys? Oh wait, you lost your banks to Germany. And your nation, including nearly every western nation, is over 100% in debt.

    Who would have figured forever borrowing and printing money makes you appear rich on paper?


    Despite this all and a 30% official unemployment average Greek is richer than the average Russian which explains why we still have a positive flow of immigrants from Russia which kinda justifies my argument that Russia is not recovering like it should.

    Past examples have shown (Carthage, Third Reich, Napoleonic France, AustroHungary, Russia during the 30s, Athens, Macedonia (the real one obviously), post war Germany and Japan economically and countless more) that recovery time is 20 or 30 years and full strength if no more can be gained after tragic loses. Russia's trajectories tell a different story in all including demographics. In addition the birth boom following all the aforementioned disasters is simply not there.

    Don't make me treat you like an idiot, we all know that, speaking about real economy, industrial output of Russia is not even a tenth of what USSR had, don't make me give specific numbers you are knowledgeable enough. Even oil production, which received a national effort to rise again, is nothing more than to the 80s levels, with 80s infrastructure, 80s extraction techniques and the old Soviet planning.

    I don't know whether this is gonna change soon, but honestly Russia grows to a second tier status if not less with the picture we have after the Georgian war and the economic crisis, circumstances rosy for a ambitious power nonetheless.

    so seeing how russia accounted for about half of the soviet population (give or take a little), to be at one tenth of the max USSR number would mean that the GDP per capita in Russia today is about 5 times lower than during USSR times.

    please dont go into, i didnt mean oil production or services


    Mate, please, in order to compete in a plain economic discussion you need for starters to understand the very basic economic definitions. I spoke about industrial output not gdp.
    Just look the productivity numbers, in the military complex for starters which was the biggest industry of USSR and the main topic of this forum.

    Look at the other threads instead of blatantly derailing this one.  Wanna talk of economics? go to the other threads.  Where once again, KVS made you look like an idiot.

    BTw, here is on military industrial complex:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Russia

    You will see how much they have earned out of it too over the years.


    This is becoming frustratingly time consuming. Just compare the numbers. Tanks, frigates, submarines, planes, helicopters, refrigerators, televisions, cars, dildos, you name it, and come back again.
    Just look how many people work in the industrial sector now and as a reference point back in '85 and come back again
    ...And oh by the way read the links before you post them is getting a tradition to post trash journalism with even trashier headlines.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:47 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:You live in denial guys. This discussion really leads nowhere. Losing ones objectivity never helps.

    Yeah, how is that gdp per caputa being so high doing for you guys? Oh wait, you lost your banks to Germany. And your nation, including nearly every western nation, is over 100% in debt.

    Who would have figured forever borrowing and printing money makes you appear rich on paper?


    Despite this all and a 30% official unemployment average Greek is richer than the average Russian which explains why we still have a positive flow of immigrants from Russia which kinda justifies my argument that Russia is not recovering like it should.

    Past examples have shown (Carthage, Third Reich, Napoleonic France, AustroHungary, Russia during the 30s, Athens, Macedonia (the real one obviously), post war Germany and Japan economically and countless more) that recovery time is 20 or 30 years and full strength if no more can be gained after tragic loses. Russia's trajectories tell a different story in all including demographics. In addition the birth boom following all the aforementioned disasters is simply not there.

    Don't make me treat you like an idiot, we all know that, speaking about real economy, industrial output of Russia is not even a tenth of what USSR had, don't make me give specific numbers you are knowledgeable enough. Even oil production, which received a national effort to rise again, is nothing more than to the 80s levels, with 80s infrastructure, 80s extraction techniques and the old Soviet planning.

    I don't know whether this is gonna change soon, but honestly Russia grows to a second tier status if not less with the picture we have after the Georgian war and the economic crisis, circumstances rosy for a ambitious power nonetheless.

    so seeing how russia accounted for about half of the soviet population (give or take a little), to be at one tenth of the max USSR number would mean that the GDP per capita in Russia today is about 5 times lower than during USSR times.

    please dont go into, i didnt mean oil production or services


    Mate, please, in order to compete in a plain economic discussion you need for starters to understand the very basic economic definitions. I spoke about industrial output not gdp.
    Just look the productivity numbers, in the military complex for starters which was the biggest industry of USSR and the main topic of this forum.

    Look at the other threads instead of blatantly derailing this one.  Wanna talk of economics? go to the other threads.  Where once again, KVS made you look like an idiot.

    BTw, here is on military industrial complex:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Russia

    You will see how much they have earned out of it too over the years.


    This is becoming frustratingly time consuming. Just compare the numbers. Tanks, frigates, submarines, planes, helicopters, you name it, and come back again.
    Just look how many people work in the industrial sector now and as a reference point back in '85 and come back again
    ...And oh by the way read the links before you post them is getting a tradition to post trash journalism with even trashier headlines.

    You are comparing the Soviet Union of over 300M people (and multitude of nations) to a single nation of 142M people, that consisted of production facilities of Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Bulgaria, etc etc etc as one whole entity, vs a single entity?  That is not even close to being fair or right.

    As well, you can call it trash or what not, but that only seems to be the case if it doesn't fit your ideals and profile.  Once again, go post in the other thread.  And go contact World Bank on how they are wrong Wink End of discussion.  If need be, go post in the other thread.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:56 pm

    Use of Russian troops in Syria is out of question — Kremlin spokesman

    Last bit is interesting though:

    Peskov also said that the use of Russian military aircraft in Syria is out of question at the moment. "This issue is not looked at now," he said. "I have no other information."

    At the moment. So there is the idea that it could be. If Assad actually asks for the assistance, then I imagine Russia would seriously look at it.

    But they will not send boots on the ground. Probably much like US wont either.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:49 am

    Despite this all and a 30% official unemployment average Greek is richer than the average Russian which explains why we still have a positive flow of immigrants from Russia which kinda justifies my argument that Russia is not recovering like it should.

    So having a job and being able to get their own money out of the bank is poor is it?

    All these rich Greeks obviously don't need debt relief if they are all rich, so why don't they pay what they owe?

    Having a nice house and a big car doesn't make you rich if the bank owns it all.

    The discussion about who has the nicest house or the best car or is "rich" or "poor" is not really very relevant to this thread.

    Take it elsewhere.


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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: Russia reaction in case of US attack to Syria

    Post  OminousSpudd on Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:54 am

    flamming_python wrote:So what do the geniuses in this thread think Russia should do in response to the US escelation against Syria?

    Threaten the US with war?

    Is that really what you think Russia should do?

    Sadly, keep playing the long game... Neutral

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