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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

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    Vladimir79
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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:42 am

    Tank force reductions or statistical juggling

    MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti military commentator Ilya Kramnik) - Russia is currently undergoing a controversial military reform. The entirely new troop structure and tables of organization are being hotly debated. Recent media reports concerning planned tank force reductions have triggered various comments, including panicky predictions.

    Media articles quoting Interfax reports involving an anonymous Defense Ministry source say the tank force will be reduced more than ten-fold, namely, from over 20,000 tanks to just 2,000 tanks. The news has sparked off a heated debate.

    However, all sensational aspects disappear if we study the situation more closely. Although the tank force will be reduced and overhauled substantially, the reform does not envision ten-fold cuts.

    At present the Russian Army has about 22,000 tanks, including more than 15,000 at storehouses. This makes up for just over 6,000 combat-ready tanks. Permanent readiness units have between 1,000 and 1,500 tanks.

    In the next ten years, army divisions will be replaced with permanent readiness brigades and battalions operating 2,000 to 2,300 combat-ready main battle tanks whose number will increase somewhat. Training units will have several hundred more tanks. Another 3,000-4,000 tanks will remain at storehouses. Consequently, the Russian Army will have a total of 6,000 to 7,000 tanks.

    Although the Russian tank force will be reduced three-fold, the specifications of operational tanks, the qualitative and quantitative gap between Russia and its theoretical enemies and the reform's long-term effect on national defense capability remain unclear.

    The Russian industrial situation makes it possible to clarify the first aspect. The T-90 main battle tank, a modified version of the T-72 tank, is currently being manufactured for the Russian Army. The T-72 modernization program will bring these tanks up to the current standard. As a result, T-64 and T-80 tanks featuring numerous Ukrainian-made components will have to be scrapped.

    The T-72 and its successor, the T-90, will probably form the mainstay of the Russian tank force. Production of the T-95 tank, due to be unveiled in 2009, could be launched in the next two or three years.

    But how will Russia's tank force compare with those of neighboring countries? Virtually all major powers plan to reduce their tank units many times over.

    NATO forces in Europe will retain about 2,000 combat-ready tanks and will store another 2,000 by 2020.

    China will have about 4,000 to 5,000 tanks, including 2,000 modern tanks, by 2020. Although the Russian tank force will be dwarfed by those of its two most powerful neighbors, NATO and China, it is highly unlikely that Moscow will have to simultaneously fight both of them. Such a hypothetical conflict would inevitably escalate into a nuclear war. Consequently, the role played by tank units would diminish greatly.

    Although anti-tank weapons are being improved all the time, tanks still dominate the battlefield due to their firepower, mobility and thick armor. Tanks remain a vital asset enhancing the flexibility, mobility and firepower of army units during local conflicts.

    http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20090703/155424380.html

    Vladislav
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladislav on Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:46 pm

    T-80/T-64/T-55 is going to be sold in big bonanza. That should help pay for new tanks.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  tunguska on Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:31 pm

    ARE YOU SERIOUS? WILL THE RUSSIAN ARMY REDUCE ITS TANK UNITS 10 TIMES OVER?!! THAT´S INSANE, I AM NEW IN THE FORUM AND I AM NOT A STRATEGY MAN OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT ALTHOUGH I STUDY MILITARY HISTORY. BUT REDUCING THE TANK UNITS 10 TIMES OVER IS CRAZY, WHY WILL THEY DO IT? WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF RUSSIA HAS TO GO TO WAR IN A MAJOR CONFLICT IN THE FOLLOWING YEARS? I THINK THEY SHOULDNT DO IT AND IF THEY WILL DO IT ANYWAY THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE THE CHIORNY ORIOL TANK IN THEIR LINES THAT WAY THE NUMERICAL INFERIORITY WILL BE COMPENSATED WITH QUALITY!! ANYWAY I WAIT FOR AN ANSWER TO DISCUSS ABOUT ANXIOUSLY!!

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:04 pm

    tunguska wrote:ARE YOU SERIOUS? WILL THE RUSSIAN ARMY REDUCE ITS TANK UNITS 10 TIMES OVER?!! THAT´S INSANE, I AM NEW IN THE FORUM AND I AM NOT A STRATEGY MAN OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT ALTHOUGH I STUDY MILITARY HISTORY. BUT REDUCING THE TANK UNITS 10 TIMES OVER IS CRAZY, WHY WILL THEY DO IT? WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF RUSSIA HAS TO GO TO WAR IN A MAJOR CONFLICT IN THE FOLLOWING YEARS? I THINK THEY SHOULDNT DO IT AND IF THEY WILL DO IT ANYWAY THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE THE CHIORNY ORIOL TANK IN THEIR LINES THAT WAY THE NUMERICAL INFERIORITY WILL BE COMPENSATED WITH QUALITY!! ANYWAY I WAIT FOR AN ANSWER TO DISCUSS ABOUT ANXIOUSLY!!

    Firsts things first, rule #3 of this forum is, do not write in all caps.


    The reason behind the reduction is for several things.

    1) to get kombat units 100% readiness
    2) to get rid of T-80s who can no longer be maintained in Russia but have to rely on Ukraine for parts.
    3) to reduce maintenaince cost of outdated equipment
    4) to find part commanality as T-72/90 have similar components
    5) to bring fully modernised or upgraded brigades into service
    6) to get rid of ridiculously old tanks like T-55/64
    7) with cost reductions will be able to train tank crews year round
    8} will be able to afford Catherine Thermals and GLONASS recievers on all active tanks for night fighting capability

    Active brigades will have around 2,300 tanks with another 2,000 in reserve.

    If Russia finds itself in a major conflict, we will have fast reaction brigades that take little time to mobalise and can crush any incursion. We can follow it up with reserve equipment for an offencive that is up-to-date. Logistics will be simple and completely independent of foreign suppliers (Ukraine). We will be able to fight at night and at greater ranges than our enemies. The way it stands now, a NATO invasion would simply out-shoot our tank divisions at night and China can go tank for tank during the day. An invasion from two fronts was how we viewed it before, but this is unlikely. Now we are directing to a one front war that can be fought and won in a short period of time. Fighting in Georgia cost us $100 million per day. We cannot afford a prolonged war so we intend to end it quickly with quality equipment.

    "CHIORNY ORIOL", also known as "Black Eagle" is nothing but a heavily modified T-80 tank chassis. The factory that made them and the T-80 line is now out of business. Uralvagonzavod plant is close to unveilling the T-95 which will be far superior. This tank will become the backbone of the future tank fleet.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:10 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    tunguska wrote:ARE YOU SERIOUS? WILL THE RUSSIAN ARMY REDUCE ITS TANK UNITS 10 TIMES OVER?!! THAT´S INSANE, I AM NEW IN THE FORUM AND I AM NOT A STRATEGY MAN OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT ALTHOUGH I STUDY MILITARY HISTORY. BUT REDUCING THE TANK UNITS 10 TIMES OVER IS CRAZY, WHY WILL THEY DO IT? WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF RUSSIA HAS TO GO TO WAR IN A MAJOR CONFLICT IN THE FOLLOWING YEARS? I THINK THEY SHOULDNT DO IT AND IF THEY WILL DO IT ANYWAY THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE THE CHIORNY ORIOL TANK IN THEIR LINES THAT WAY THE NUMERICAL INFERIORITY WILL BE COMPENSATED WITH QUALITY!! ANYWAY I WAIT FOR AN ANSWER TO DISCUSS ABOUT ANXIOUSLY!!

    Firsts things first, rule #3 of this forum is, do not write in all caps.


    The reason behind the reduction is for several things.

    1) to get kombat units 100% readiness
    2) to get rid of T-80s who can no longer be maintained in Russia but have to rely on Ukraine for parts.
    3) to reduce maintenaince cost of outdated equipment
    4) to find part commanality as T-72/90 have similar components
    5) to bring fully modernised or upgraded brigades into service
    6) to get rid of ridiculously old tanks like T-55/64
    7) with cost reductions will be able to train tank crews year round
    8} will be able to afford Catherine Thermals and GLONASS recievers on all active tanks for night fighting capability

    Active brigades will have around 2,300 tanks with another 2,000 in reserve.

    If Russia finds itself in a major conflict, we will have fast reaction brigades that take little time to mobalise and can crush any incursion. We can follow it up with reserve equipment for an offencive that is up-to-date. Logistics will be simple and completely independent of foreign suppliers (Ukraine). We will be able to fight at night and at greater ranges than our enemies. The way it stands now, a NATO invasion would simply out-shoot our tank divisions at night and China can go tank for tank during the day. An invasion from two fronts was how we viewed it before, but this is unlikely. Now we are directing to a one front war that can be fought and won in a short period of time. Fighting in Georgia cost us $100 million per day. We cannot afford a prolonged war so we intend to end it quickly with quality equipment.

    "CHIORNY ORIOL", also known as "Black Eagle" is nothing but a heavily modified T-80 tank chassis. The factory that made them and the T-80 line is now out of business. Uralvagonzavod plant is close to unveilling the T-95 which will be far superior. This tank will become the backbone of the future tank fleet.

    It would actually be much cheaper and more efficient to turn a lot of these old tanks into IFV and APC's like BMPT and BTRT, or Air defense systems with unmanned tracking and engaging surface to air systems, as it would reduce the cost to produce the chassis severely, and providing upgrade armor and components would not be that hard (as there are facilities meant for upgrading tanks/apc's, etc).

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  tunguska on Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:02 am

    Ok i get what you´re saying but do you have any pictures or additional information of uralvagonzavod tank? i know that it is highly unlikely that russia will go to war with china and nato at the same time, but don´t you think is going to war with china is always a possiblity since China is a country that throughout history (im saying this cuz as i have said i study history and want to become a good historian) has proved to its allies and the world that we cannot trust the chinese 100% they have not kept their promises and have betrayed their allies over and over, so don´t you think that if russia went to to war with China, then Russia would need to have a a lot of armed forces ready? i mean China alone can provide 200,000,000 soldiers!! By the way how many forces does Russia have ready to fight the Chinese for example, or any major conlfict not the conflict with Georgia because we all know that Georgia is no match for the military power of russia but how about a country like China or U.S. What would Russia do then with such reduced tank forces? I know that tanks don´t win wars but they sure help a lot, so what do you think about this? How do you think Russia would deal with total war against China? Dont get me wrong i think Russian army is best in the world and i am not on any country´s side in a war except on the Russian side and the side of my country which is not the U.S, just wanted to clear that up. Anyway i hope we can discuss this even more, I just want to know about modern Russian army and its system!!

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:30 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    It would actually be much cheaper and more efficient to turn a lot of these old tanks into IFV and APC's like BMPT and BTRT, or Air defense systems with unmanned tracking and engaging surface to air systems, as it would reduce the cost to produce the chassis severely, and providing upgrade armor and components would not be that hard (as there are facilities meant for upgrading tanks/apc's, etc).

    There will still be plenty of spare T-72 chassis. We are already turning these into TOS-1s, BMPTs, tank-bridges, mine-field demolition and many other things. T-80/64/55s will be sold in a big bargain sale to the third world for years to come. We can make billions off the sales and further strengthen our markets with Ukraine to supply the T-80s for third-party support contracts. It will give us another level of control.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:48 pm

    tunguska wrote:Ok i get what you´re saying but do you have any pictures or additional information of uralvagonzavod tank?

    I haven't seen anything except concept drawings. The turret is supposed to be unmanned and tank to have reduced crew.

    i know that it is highly unlikely that russia will go to war with china and nato at the same time, but don´t you think is going to war with china is always a possiblity since China is a country that throughout history (im saying this cuz as i have said i study history and want to become a good historian) has proved to its allies and the world that we cannot trust the chinese 100% they have not kept their promises and have betrayed their allies over and over, so don´t you think that if russia went to to war with China, then Russia would need to have a a lot of armed forces ready? i mean China alone can provide 200,000,000 soldiers!!

    We will never be at war with them at the same time. Going to war with China is always a remote possibility. The way things stood a couple years ago, we had little more than a paper army facing the Chinese border. Colonels had tonnes of equipment and no one to man it. In Caucuses we had to mix and match units to get kombat strength b/c equipment was breaking down and rosters weren't full. People dodge the draft and the Chinese border is the hardest hit for manpower. This is unacceptable and the reforms will make sure this never happens again. The way wars are fought between major powers today, they only last weeks instead of months or years. It would take months to mobalise millions of soldiers to stop a Chinese advance and this we cannot rely on. This is another reason we are trying to get quick-reaction brigades in the CSTO. With the new structure, we can crush the PLA in their tracks and take a huge chunk of territory and bring them to the peace table on our terms. There is no way for China to have 200m conscripts in the time this war would be ended. If they plan on moving them they would be nothing but cannon fodder. If they mobalise them beforehand, we will see it coming and be able to preposition everything far before they get here.

    By the way how many forces does Russia have ready to fight the Chinese for example, or any major conlfict not the conflict with Georgia because we all know that Georgia is no match for the military power of russia but how about a country like China or U.S. What would Russia do then with such reduced tank forces? I know that tanks don´t win wars but they sure help a lot, so what do you think about this? How do you think Russia would deal with total war against China? Dont get me wrong i think Russian army is best in the world and i am not on any country´s side in a war except on the Russian side and the side of my country which is not the U.S, just wanted to clear that up. Anyway i hope we can discuss this even more, I just want to know about modern Russian army and its system!!

    Hard to say how many with the new brigade structure. They won't be done reforming units until the end of the year. I would guess around 35-40 army brigades. We always have 5 divisions of VDV capable of deploying anywhere. There are several marine divisions. The best tanks are in that OZ so there are hundreds of T-90/90S which is far superior to anything they have. VVS has most of the capable units there along with best artillery and SAMs, the second S-400 regiment is placed there. We would control the skies pretty quickly. Without that, PLA doesn't have a prayer despite our low troop numbers. Our subs would be able to sink PLAN, and our bombers would be able to take out strategic targets. A direct hit on the 3 Gorges damn will cripple a large section of their country and kill millions. We just acquired a huge batch of AR missiles so we can cripple their air defence early.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  soldieroffortune on Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:35 am

    Sounds like a strategic plan, but still much remains to be done, - like getting "Bulava" to work.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  tunguska on Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:12 am

    Hey thanks for replying, so i would also like to know or to discuss about what you said refering to the tank divisions in OZ? What does OZ stand for? and you are telling me that the tanks that the russians have in that factory or in that base is far superior to the tanks that the russians are using against chechnya or georgia? I mean far superior to the t80y? or the t90? and how about the war in Chechnya? don´t you think that it is time for the russian army to finish that war? Dont get me wrong I know that the russians are way better than the chechens and that you guys (russians, you are russian right?) can finish that war anytime so why don´t you? I know that the mujahideen hide in the mountains and is hard to find them so what do you think about that war? I want to know a lot about the russian military, so if you can help me with my doubts and questions it would be of great help. By the way do you really think that the russian goverment has some secret weapons? I know every country has some secrets but i have heard that russians have ice bombs and that they have a bomb that would overthrow the water of the ocean into land!! And how about the arabic guys? are they your allies? And again dont you think that having such a "reduced" force of tanks will be a bit dangerous for Russia, since Russia is the biggest country in the world, again i know that a huge army is no good without good equipment but russian equipment is the best and reducing russian forces to a minimun would be dangerous even with that high quality equipment to ensure the safety of russian people, dont you think? i mean the islamic people care most about religion and if you intervine with something that affects their life style or religion they would defenetely get angry and may be break diplomatic relations with russia, the example of islamic people caring too much about religion is their relation with Israel. And what do you think would happen in a case like that one, do you think that is a possibility? How about Nato? Does Russia have a good relation with Nato? Would Nato intervine in a war in which Russia is involved? And if so what side would Nato take? Or what would be the way in which Nato would intervine? Anyway thanks for replying and sorry if i make a lot of questions but Russia is one of my 3 favourite countries in the world and if i have a lot of money someday i would like to have an apartment in Moscow and live there for a while!! Anyway thanks again in advance, waiting to read your opinions about my 1 too many questions!! hahaha.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:16 am

    tunguska wrote:Hey thanks for replying, so i would also like to know or to discuss about what you said refering to the tank divisions in OZ? What does OZ stand for? and you are telling me that the tanks that the russians have in that factory or in that base is far superior to the tanks that the russians are using against chechnya or georgia? I mean far superior to the t80y? or the t90? and how about the war in Chechnya? don´t you think that it is time for the russian army to finish that war? Dont get me wrong I know that the russians are way better than the chechens and that you guys (russians, you are russian right?) can finish that war anytime so why don´t you? I know that the mujahideen hide in the mountains and is hard to find them so what do you think about that war? I want to know a lot about the russian military, so if you can help me with my doubts and questions it would be of great help. By the way do you really think that the russian goverment has some secret weapons? I know every country has some secrets but i have heard that russians have ice bombs and that they have a bomb that would overthrow the water of the ocean into land!! And how about the arabic guys? are they your allies? And again dont you think that having such a "reduced" force of tanks will be a bit dangerous for Russia, since Russia is the biggest country in the world, again i know that a huge army is no good without good equipment but russian equipment is the best and reducing russian forces to a minimun would be dangerous even with that high quality equipment to ensure the safety of russian people, dont you think? i mean the islamic people care most about religion and if you intervine with something that affects their life style or religion they would defenetely get angry and may be break diplomatic relations with russia, the example of islamic people caring too much about religion is their relation with Israel. And what do you think would happen in a case like that one, do you think that is a possibility? How about Nato? Does Russia have a good relation with Nato? Would Nato intervine in a war in which Russia is involved? And if so what side would Nato take? Or what would be the way in which Nato would intervine? Anyway thanks for replying and sorry if i make a lot of questions but Russia is one of my 3 favourite countries in the world and if i have a lot of money someday i would like to have an apartment in Moscow and live there for a while!! Anyway thanks again in advance, waiting to read your opinions about my 1 too many questions!! hahaha.

    I cannot read through this wall of text. Because this is an english board, I am going to say this "create proper sentence structures". Now, I read the first part, and the T-80U and early T-90 models where not that great of tanks. The T-80 was a beast but with technical problems in comparison to the T-90A that are made now. The tanks used in Chechnya were most likely T-72's and T-62's/64's and in Georgia, it was T-62's. In some respect, the T-72's Georgia used where upgraded in Israel and the T-62's used where basic upgrades with ghetto slate armor. But they fared better in combat then the T-72's Georgia used. In a sense, tanks are no longer being used as a tank on tank battle in combat anymore. In modern combat, it is a support vehicle really, to force the enemy out of trenches/bunkers and various other hide outs, and provide heavy fire power just in case there is an enemy tank, and for long range support (almost like artillery).

    As for what Russia has planned up, is a T-90M (an upgrade for the T-90's in service) and the T-95. As right now, the T-95 seems more like a ghost like the PAK FA, but judging on what many years have gone and what defense ministers said, as well as various other projects being born (Black eagle), shows that they do have something.

    And sort of OT on this, the Black Eagle would have been the best upgrade needed for the armored forces (especially now). The turret on the tank itself would have raised the survivability of the crew (as the ammo would have been in the turret bustle), and it was universal (would work on most of the chasis in service).

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  tunguska on Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:01 pm

    Hey sepheronx i read your message and thanks for the observation, and i mean no disrespect, but before you criticize me you should probably watch your own writing, in the second line of the first paragraph you wrote t80 and t90 where not that great of tanks..... where? Did you mean were? like in the past or refering to a place? Another thing is that i can see you are canadian and i have nothing against canadian people, but actually my response was meant for to vladimir79 i can see that he knows more about russian army than you and me combined so my response was actually meant for him, not you. You know no harsh feelings and nothing personal but i am talking to him so i will wait for his response, thanks for the observations i´ll keep that in mind next time.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:19 am

    tunguska wrote:Hey thanks for replying, so i would also like to know or to discuss about what you said refering to the tank divisions in OZ? What does OZ stand for?

    OZ = Operational Zone

    and you are telling me that the tanks that the russians have in that factory or in that base is far superior to the tanks that the russians are using against chechnya or georgia? I mean far superior to the t80y? or the t90?

    Very few T-90/80s entered the Georgian conflict. The T-90S is stationed in the Far East/Siberia and this includes those with Catherine FC Thermal imagers. These are far superior to anything China has.

    and how about the war in Chechnya? don´t you think that it is time for the russian army to finish that war? Dont get me wrong I know that the russians are way better than the chechens and that you guys (russians, you are russian right?) can finish that war anytime so why don´t you? I know that the mujahideen hide in the mountains and is hard to find them so what do you think about that war?

    I fought two wars there, Dagestan and 2nd Chechen War. Chechnya officially ended in 2000 but went into insurgency mode until this year. It looks like it might have been called off too early. What the situation is now is Kadyrov and his personal army Chechen OMON/GRU are responsible for the security of the region as he is Chechen and knows them better than we do. He has done some major counterinsurgency work, including human rights abuses. People say his hardline tactics are actually making the situation worse by garnering new recruits. What the real problem is these foreign Wahhabi are coming in from the ME and keep stirring up the pot. If we could keep these people from crossing the Azerbaijan border there would be little surge in these attacks but Aliyev wants to sit on his arse while we suffer. Finding them happens all the time, when you here about some attack on civilians, it is shortly followed up by a number of insurgents being killed. We kill them as they come up. The only solution is nipping it in the bud.

    I want to know a lot about the russian military, so if you can help me with my doubts and questions it would be of great help. By the way do you really think that the russian goverment has some secret weapons? I know every country has some secrets but i have heard that russians have ice bombs and that they have a bomb that would overthrow the water of the ocean into land!!

    No, we don't have ice bombs. The weapons we have are not really secrets but not acknowledged by the government. Things like EMP, Plasma Stealth, Hypersonic missiles exist, but are not put out in front for everyone to see.

    And how about the arabic guys? are they your allies?

    Our only allies are in the CSTO. The Arabs are just another market to make money.

    And again dont you think that having such a "reduced" force of tanks will be a bit dangerous for Russia, since Russia is the biggest country in the world, again i know that a huge army is no good without good equipment but russian equipment is the best and reducing russian forces to a minimun would be dangerous even with that high quality equipment to ensure the safety of russian people, dont you think?

    It won't be dangerous if it is met with highly trained operators and advanced technology machines. Technology has an effect on weapons by multiplying their firepower with less numbers but with greater quality. As seen in GW1, one US tank division was worth more than the entire Republikan Guard. What goes with the new brigade structure are all the supporting elements that make it more effective and relies less heavily on MBTs. The procurement of more attack helos will make this force unstoppable.

    i mean the islamic people care most about religion and if you intervine with something that affects their life style or religion they would defenetely get angry and may be break diplomatic relations with russia, the example of islamic people caring too much about religion is their relation with Israel. And what do you think would happen in a case like that one, do you think that is a possibility? How about Nato? Does Russia have a good relation with Nato? Would Nato intervine in a war in which Russia is involved? And if so what side would Nato take? Or what would be the way in which Nato would intervine?

    We have been pounding Chechnya for the last 15 years... Muslim dictators don't give a damn. NATO won't do anything unless they plan on getting nuked.


    Anyway thanks for replying and sorry if i make a lot of questions but Russia is one of my 3 favourite countries in the world and if i have a lot of money someday i would like to have an apartment in Moscow and live there for a while!! Anyway thanks again in advance, waiting to read your opinions about my 1 too many questions!! hahaha.

    Russia is the greatest country in the world and everyone will see it at the 2012 Olympics.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:44 am

    [quote="sepheronx"]

    I cannot read through this wall of text. Because this is an english board, I am going to say this "create proper sentence structures". Now, I read the first part, and the T-80U and early T-90 models where not that great of tanks. The T-80 was a beast but with technical problems in comparison to the T-90A that are made now.

    The only real problem with the T-80U was its gaz guzzling engine. The poor performance in Chechnya was due to lack of ERA and using it in the improper role. The T-90 is a great tank as was used in Dagestan. One took 7 RPG hits and kept on rolling without a care.

    The tanks used in Chechnya were most likely T-72's and T-62's/64's and in Georgia, it was T-62's.

    The tanks used in Chechnya were T-80BV and T-72s. 58th Army in Georgia is almost exclusively T-72B/M with some T-62s that followed up to be written off after the war.

    In some respect, the T-72's Georgia used where upgraded in Israel

    Georgia's T-72s never went to Israel. They came from Ukraine mostly, with a large batch from Czech Republik. Upgraded tanks were from Ukraine. Israel only provided UAVs, nightvision devices, and Su-25 upgrades.

    and the T-62's used where basic upgrades with ghetto slate armor. But they fared better in combat then the T-72's Georgia used.

    T-62s were not the first thrust into Georgia, they followed up the T-72s using Kontakt 3/5.

    And sort of OT on this, the Black Eagle would have been the best upgrade needed for the armored forces (especially now). The turret on the tank itself would have raised the survivability of the crew (as the ammo would have been in the turret bustle), and it was universal (would work on most of the chasis in service).

    The best upgrade for any of our tanks that are destroyed is Kontakt-5. That lack is why we lost so many in Chechnya from roof shots. Some of the tanks that entered Georgia didn't even have explosives behind their bricks.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:44 am

    I thought the T-72Sim-1 Was upgraded by Israel?

    Anyway, I agree with everything else (and thanks for clarifying what was used in Chechnya and alike). It would be in Russia's best interest to upgrade what they can out of their tanks (T-55 to T-55M6. T62 to whatever modernized variant, T-80 to something else) and market it as cheap, so they can start working on replacing them with newer systems.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:42 am

    sepheronx wrote:I thought the T-72Sim-1 Was upgraded by Israel?

    Never happened...

    "In 2007, Israeli experts trained Georgian commandos in Georgia and there were plans to supply heavy weaponry, electronic weapons, tanks and other arms at a later date, but the deal didn't work out," Nogovitsyn told a Moscow press conference

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=SimpleSite/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1218710400132

    Anyway, I agree with everything else (and thanks for clarifying what was used in Chechnya and alike). It would be in Russia's best interest to upgrade what they can out of their tanks (T-55 to T-55M6. T62 to whatever modernized variant, T-80 to something else) and market it as cheap, so they can start working on replacing them with newer systems.

    Let the plant at Kharkiv waste their time modernising obsolete T-55/62s. Give the Ukrainians something to do. We are focused on more advanced options. No one is going to be able to afford a real kombat tank upgrade that is going to be buying these ancient machines. Like I said before, T-80 series is only supplied by Ukraine and we aren't about to form a new plant to deal with it. We can sell them stock, Ukraine can upgrade and we gain leverage on them works out the best way.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:00 am

    Then who made the Sim-1?

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:28 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Then who made the Sim-1?

    That is a Ukraine upgrade.


    Ukraine supplied many of the new T-72 tanks, some of which were improved T-72 SIM-1 models.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/georgia/army.htm

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    Russia's new Ground Forces chief urges drastic cuts in tanks

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:53 pm

    Russia's new Ground Forces chief urges drastic cuts in tanks

    RIA Novosti

    25/02/201013:59

    MOSCOW, February 25 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's newly appointed chief of Ground Forces said on Thursday Russia would do well with half the number of tanks it has today.

    "Currently, there are 20,000 tanks of all modifications in service but the actual requirement is half that number," Col. Gen. Alexander Postnikov said.

    Postnikov said the country's Ground Forces needed new armor and new tanks to match the best foreign analogs.

    For this purpose, the Defense Ministry has purchased 261 T-90 main battle tanks for the army this year, Postnikov said, adding the tanks will be delivered to the North Caucasus military district.

    Postnikov said 1,000 tanks had been modernized last year to extend their service life but added that priority was given to the purchase of new tanks rather than to their modernization.

    The T-90 is equipped with 125 mm smooth-bore gun, 12.7 mm anti-aircraft machine gun and 7.62 mm co-axial machine gun supported with high accuracy sighting systems, and automatic loader for higher firing rate.

    It also features sophisticated protection from chemical, biological and nuclear attacks.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100225-rianovosti02.htm


    Last edited by Russian Patriot on Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Viktor on Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:16 am

    Haha .. he is speaking about drastic cuts but at the same time revealing Russia buyed 260 T-90A for this year alone with 1000 of them modernized in 2009. LOL

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:44 pm

    Viktor wrote:Haha .. he is speaking about drastic cuts but at the same time revealing Russia buyed 260 T-90A for this year alone with 1000 of them modernized in 2009. LOL

    Russia gets about 50-60 T-90... not 260.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:14 am

    Here is the news article about it...

    Tanks for tank

    Defense Ministry announced a plan to buy this year, 261 tank. It does not really need the army, but can save «Uralvagonzavod

    Alexei Nikolsky
    Bulletin

    26.02.2010, 33 (2551)

    The new Commander of Land Forces, General Alexander Postnikov, said yesterday at a press briefing that the army needed new tanks and such a tank to develop a new generation of machines is a T-90 tank. This year, the general said, will be purchased 261 tanks of this type. The official said the Defense Ministry, is likely an error: the general was referring to the purchase of both new and upgraded tanks. According to him, the new T-90 tank production «Uralvagonzavod"Is now about 70 million rubles. But the allocation of this year, more than 18 billion rubles. their purchase documents have been received. This repair and partial modernization of the T-72, which was also carried out on «Uralvagonzavod, is several times less - about 10-30 million rubles. depending on the volume of work, said another source in the Defense Ministry. According to him, probably 198 out of 261 of the tank - a modernized tanks T-72BA. General Director «Uralvagonzavod Oleg Sienko said «Vedomosti "that the plant is ready to make a general named Postnikov number of tanks.

    Since 2008 operates a three-year contract with the Defense «Uralvagonzavod to purchase a total of 189 tanks (in 63 tanks per year), reminded the editor of Moscow Defense Brief Mikhail Barabanov, and it is highly unlikely that the order for no apparent reason was increased more than fourfold. This production capacity «Uralvagonzavod such that in Soviet times it produced up to 1200 T-72 tanks (T-90 is a development of this design) per year, like an expert, but now funds for the purchase of bulk tank is clearly not enough and the army has more important priorities. This reduction in tank continues - in the shape of the new army brigades, according to the officer's Defense Ministry plans to have about 2,000 tanks and as many more will be in training units and other units of the order of 5000-6000 and tanks - in storage. Now the army, according to the Postnikov, there are about 20 000 tanks, and half of that number will be utilized.

    Uralvagonzavod "suffered greatly during the crisis and reduce the avalanche of demand for rail cars, which before the crisis in 2008 gave about two-thirds of the proceeds (manufacture of tanks for Russia, Algerian and Indian armies in the year has less than a third of proceeds), by the summer of last year, work has lost nearly 20 000 people. Algerian contract for supply of 185 T-90 tanks and the delivery of the Indian Contract completed and now the factory supplying car sets for assembling T-90 in India of about 70 units a year, says expert at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Andrei Frolov. To save the city-forming enterprises of Nizhny Tagil, and the only manufacturer of tanks for a total government decided to provide assistance amounting to 28 billion rubles., About half are state guarantees on loans, like a member of the public council under Ministry of Defense Ruslan Pukhov. Purchase tanks valued at 18 billion rubles. itself will not save the plant, but may give a chance for his salvation when successfully carried out debt restructuring, said the expert. Most same army T-90 tanks are not needed, according to Pukhov.

    http://www.vedomosti.ru/newspaper/article/2010/02/26/226705

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:28 am

    The main problem is that much of the tank fleet is obsolete and that there are too many different types in service all with slightly different parts that are not interchangeable.
    With everything from T-54s and T-62s through T-64s, T-72s, T-80s and T-90s the problem is that the remaining tank producer in Russia makes T-90s/T-72s so ideally they need to get rid of everything except the T-90s.

    The T-95 probably uses lots of net centric technology that allows it to work with other assets as a team. Until that is all implimented and operational then it probably makes more sense just to make T-90s for numbers with some net capability (ie Burlak).

    The obvious solution to the obsolete tank fleet is to start offering them to allies who already have such vehicles in service. In fact offer a few thousand T-55s with upgrades like laser rangefinders and then offer to sell similar upgrades to that countries existing fleet to make money and help the customer save money by having a fleet of like vehicles.
    Another option that can be used as well as the above is of course the create heavy APCs like the BTR-T except using T-72s rather than T-55s and of course BMP-T vehicles based on existing tanks rather than new built.

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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:30 pm

    This article is relevant to this thread I think:

    source: http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20100326/158321797.html

    Russian tanks: today and tomorrow

    The reorganization and re-equipping of the Russian army's tank force has become a high-priority military issue.

    Reductions in tank forces, the gradual expansion of T-90 tank production, the modernization of existing tanks and the development of the next generation T-95 tank - this gives much food for thought.

    RIA Novosti learned more about it during an exclusive interview with Oleg Siyenko, CEO of Uralvagonzavod, a Russian engineering company located in Nizhny Tagil, the Urals Federal District. Uralvagonzavod is the world's largest main battle tank manufacturer and the only tank manufacturer in Russia.

    The T-90 has undergone continuous upgrades since it was first developed in the early 1990s on the basis of the latest modifications to the T-72/T-72B. It is the only mass-produced main battle tank in Russia.

    Under the current state rearmament program, the Russian army is expected to receive about 1,500 tanks of this model. At present, the Russian Armed Forces have 500 T-90 tanks and receive 60 to 100 new tanks of this model each year.

    This month, General Alexander Postnikov, Commander of Land Forces, caused a sensation when he announced the order for 261 T-90 tanks in 2010. Although all news outlets reported a steep rise in T-90 procurement, Siyenko could not confirm the story.

    "There is no contract for such an order at present. Unfortunately, contracts between the Ministry of Defense and our company call for much fewer tanks. But I can say that we would be happy to receive such an order, as it would ensure the stability of our company and help it to expand," Siyenko said.

    The T-90 is currently the most commercially successful tank on the global market. The number of exported tanks, including tank-assembly kits, will soon reach 1,000, and more and more countries are beginning to import them.

    India is the largest buyer of T-90 tanks, but they can also be found in the Algerian military according to media reports. Contracts have been signed with Turkmenistan, while preliminary agreements have been concluded with Cyprus, Libya and Saudi Arabia.

    In addition to the production of T-90 tanks, T-72 tanks continue to be modernized for the Russian Armed Forces. The T-72BA is currently the main modified version. Modernization programs streamline the fire-control system, enhance hull-bottom mine resistance by installing an additional armor plate near the driver's seat, standardize the platform and engine with the T-90 tank and improve the tank's armor.

    An upgraded T-72 tank has considerably greater potential and meets modern tank requirements, while at the same time being far cheaper to produce than a new T-90 tank.

    Nevertheless, the army is hoping for a next generation tank to replace older models and reinforce the current fleet of T-90. Known as "Item 195" and the T-95, this new model has been under development for many years. Details remain classified.

    During our exclusive interview, Siyenko commented on reports on the T-95, which was developed at Uralvagonzavod, where it will also be mass-produced:

    "We've been working on this project for many years. Unfortunately, we are having problems with our parts suppliers, who are falling behind both in terms of product quality and quantity. We are working to solve this problem on our own. Our engineers are developing new units and systems for this entirely new tank and for intermediate versions. With the approval of the government, the first tanks could be displayed this summer at the Russian Defense Expo 2010 in Nizhny Tagil.

    Although I can't reveal the tank's specifications, I would like to point out that we have met the technical requirements of the proposal in full as well as the requirements of the military.

    Let's wait until summer, when you will most likely be able to see the new tank for yourself."

    If the summer expo of the T-95 in Nizhny Tagil happens, Russia will become the first country to unveil a fifth-generation tank. This tank is expected to surpass all of its predecessors and rivals.

    Despite the secrecy surrounding the T-95, some information has been leaked. It appears that the new tank will weigh about 55 metric tons and that it will have a remote-controlled turret with a 152-mm cannon capable of firing conventional rounds and guided missiles.

    Tank design and performance, in addition to crew training, are becoming increasingly important at a time when Moscow has decided to reduce Russia's tank force from over 20,000 operational and reserve vehicles to 2,000 operational and 5,000-6,000 in reserve.

    It becomes even more important when you consider the vastness of Russia's borderland as well as a hypothetical land conflict with a superior enemy. Consequently, the success of army reforms in Russia will largely depend on the success of the T-95 R&D program and subsequent tests.

    The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.



    MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti military commentator Ilya Kramnik)
    dated: 26/03/2010

    Now note this part: This month, General Alexander Postnikov, Commander of Land Forces, caused a sensation when he announced the order for 261 T-90 tanks in 2010. Although all news outlets reported a steep rise in T-90 procurement, Siyenko could not confirm the story.

    This was a misunderstanding by the media. The general didn't say there would be 261 new T-90s, he said the Russian Army would get 261 'new' tanks and the media decided that because the T-90 was the only tank in production that he meant they were all T-90s. The figure of 261 'new' tanks includes older tanks like T-80s, T-72s getting upgrades and being returned to service. The figure for actual new T-90s has not increased and will not increase probably till the new upgrade for it has been completed. The main stumbling block is probably a lack of thermal sights because the production line for licence production is being set up and should only be starting producing Russian made sights soon.
    There is a video from 20/10/2008 showing the Russians seeing the sights delivered by Thales for Russia and they talk about setting up production taking one and a half years so I would assume that by the end of this year they might be ready for larger scale production so the new sights can be fitted to new build T-90s as well as upgraded older models to get the Russian Army more night capable quicker.
    (ie: http://en.rian.ru/video/20081020/117841689.html for video.)
    Of course the other stumbling block could be that they are simply waiting for the upgrade of the T-90 to be finalised so that production of new T-90s can be ramped up and upgrading older models can be reduced or stopped and older model tanks removed from the inventory. Most current modernisations of existing tanks seem to be applied to the newer models and seem to focus on making them more like T-90s for commonality and ease logistics problems.

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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:04 am

    Found this post on a website and wanted to post it here:



       Cross Posting



       That just Turned out to be a Whole lotta BS ,
       that post from aviation week was just a blog , that too someones first blog safe to say it was not accurate and deliberate.

       here are few links to the actual press conference that happened on that day , and none of it mentions anything, i dunno where did kommersant came up with it from , when all other newspapers reporting the same press conference havent said anything.


       http://lenta.ru/news/2010/04/07/t90/

       http://www.argumenti.ru/army/2010/04/56001/

       http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=351545&cid=549


    These links are Russian so I wonder if anyone who can read Russian could look through these threads and see if we can sort this out.

    Source for the above quote:
    in case you want to check.

    Edit: no links to outside forums

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