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    Voronezh EW radar: News

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    GarryB
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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:43 pm

    These radars will be very useful for the Aerospace defence forces to track targets from ground level up out into space over Russian territory and beyond.

    The old 1972 ABM treaty would have banned such radars pointing into Russian territory as they could have been used for an ABM battle management system, but with it gone they can have as many as they want where they want them.


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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  Viktor on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:16 pm

    Popping up like mushrooms after rain Very Happy 

    Construction of the new radar "Voronezh-M" starts on Tuesday near Orenburg

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:33 am

    The task of the Aerospace Defence Forces is to monitor and control the airspace and space above Russian territory... they will need quite a lot of these and other radar types to complete such a mission.


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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:44 pm

    GarryB wrote:The task of the Aerospace Defence Forces is to monitor and control the airspace and space above Russian territory... they will need quite a lot of these and other radar types to complete such a mission.
    and to teach a good lesson to americans also

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  SOC on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:13 pm

    The Irkutsk Voronezh radar can be seen in Google Earth.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:59 am

    and to teach a good lesson to americans also
    Actually I am surprised the US is not really ensuring it has full radar coverage of its own... it seems to be more interested in electronic eavesdropping than airspace monitoring.

    It already has plenty of radars looking at traditional routes... but with cruise missiles mounted on container ships that could be directed at the us from almost any direction, you would think better coverage would be a priority... but they seem to be totally fixated with ICBMs that don't exist.

    The irony of course is that most people could build a cruise missile... give it a bigger wing and more fuel and a longer takeoff run and you can get a very long range aircraft... the idea you could build an ICBM in your backyard is absurd... you could make thousands of cruise missiles for the cost of one ICBM and do it relatively anonymously.

    Imagine that... the US focusing on nonexistent threats and ignoring realistic threats.


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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  Viktor on Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:18 am

    Nice update on EW

    Early-warning radars update - Mishelevka, Barnaul, and Orsk

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  Viktor on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:15 pm

    Interesting thing happened today. It was this missile launched from fighter that Russian EW in Anmir detected from 1700km away. Now isnt that something?! Twisted Evil Shocked Very Happy Very Happy 



    Israel claims joint US missile launch in Mediterranean for 'target practice'

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:28 pm

    Wow....how did they recognize it with all the clutter in between the station and the missile?

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  SOC on Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:41 am

    TR1 wrote:Wow....how did they recognize it with all the clutter in between the station and the missile?
    It actually isn't that complicated in concept. Blue Sparrow (some media reports are calling it Sparrow and confusing its specs with the AAM...LOL) is a target designed to imitate a tactical ballistic missile. It'll launch, shoot off up into the sky, and boost to get up some speed and altitude to try and emulate the right kind of inbound track. Once it gets going sensors will be able to pick it out, since there isn't going to be much of any clutter beyond 50,000 feet, and the IR signature is probably a bit larger than one might expect given the high impulse motor used to emulate the right profile. Now, radar horizon is an issue, as something at, say, 50,000 feet over Israel will not appear to be at 50,000 feet when you're over 1,000 km away, due to the Earth not being flat. But this thing is intended to get a LOT higher than that in order to have the right angle and velocity coming back down, so it will still clear most of the visible surface or low-altitude clutter, or the clutter you'd run into in between (i.e. at X distance a target looks the same altitude as a target at Y distance, when in fact the more distant one is actually higher). Apogee for the Blue Sparrow has been demonstrated at 100 km.

    However, the likely radar tracking the test is not the Armavir-based BMEW. At a range of about 1500 km, with an elevation of about 200 meters for the Armavir site, you get visibility of a Blue Sparrow at apogee at just under 1400 km. At that range the target would appear to be just coming above the horizon. One small problem: there are mountains in Turkey, and they're in the way! Terrain is pretty consistently at about 5000 feet in elevation on a line of sight between the Armavir radar and the launch area in the eastern Med. Basically, Blue Sparrow isn't getting high enough for anyone to see it. Plus, if you want to throw in the "but maybe it was an OTH-SW" or "well maybe Voronezh can be an OTH-SW" argument, great...but the target is still going to be in the blind zone manifested downrange by the terrain, and therefore invisible. The only way Armavir makes any sense at all mathematically is if the target missile had a much higher apogee, but physically it seems to be topping out at about 100 km based on the motor characteristics and mass. Prior launches only hit apogees of about 40 km max, although they were using the Black Sparrow target designed to simulate slower SRBMs. Silver Sparrow is supposed to be a new system emulating more capable threats than Blue Sparrow, but little info is available and even if you jack up the apogee substantially (which you really can't, it's supposed to be about the same size as Blue Sparrow) there's still the issue of Turkish terrain. And actually, the report seems to indicate that this was in fact potentially a Silver Sparrow test as it mentions a new Sparrow variant. Plus the report at the link mentions that they detected the launches, but they did not specify with what system.

    Anyway, if they could track the target missile using a radar site (like one of the ships in the Med), they'd also be able to potentially track things like SCUDs fired within Syria. What likely happened was that they got an IR hit from a satellite of both the Sparrow booster igniting and the subsequent Arrow launch: the two "ballistic" launches. Arrow is big enough and flies a profile that could suggest a ballistic weapon, or they tested two Sparrows. Who knows. That info might've gone back to the command center in the radar, so if the report came from Armavir, people figured the radar saw it and ran with it, proving that they may have failed both geography and math! However the question still remains: if they've got something watching that can see a booster as small as Blue or Silver Sparrow ignite, it should also be able to see what happens in southwestern Syria, providing that a SCUD was used, or at least something no less visible than Silver Sparrow. If they used smaller, less visible rockets, maybe not. But it's an interesting question.

    I've tried to see what would happen if they used either the 64N6 deployed inside Georgia or the 9S19 based in Armenia, but the distances don't make much difference as they're still around a minimum of 1200 km and the line-of-sight issue with Turkey is not mitigated by the different radar locations. Plus, both of those make things a bit worse actually, as they don't look along the horizon but look upwards to track ballistic inbounds. This would be way outside of their useable range anyway, but I ran the numbers regardless to cover all bases.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:14 am

    Thank you SOC, very interesting as usual.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  Arrow on Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:48 pm

    So the Voronezh DM from Armavir can't detect this missile ?

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:20 am

    So if an early warning radar meant for tracking ballitisc targets cannot track an bm, then what the hell is the point?

    So far, ria reported from someone from mod, so I trust them it was the radar.

    Btw, arrow was not used during the test.

    Edit: after reading a bit through, soc sounds right. Although, not quite sure how they detected it.

    Side note, wasnt there plans to put abm radar sats to replace old system?


    Last edited by sepheronx on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:15 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:14 am

    OTH radar uses radar bounced off the atmosphere to see around the corner of of the terrain in front of it... if it can see around the curve of the earth it should be able to see over some bumps on that earth like mountains.


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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  SOC on Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:50 am

    sepheronx wrote:So if an early warning radar meant for tracking ballitisc targets cannot track an bm, then what the hell is the point?

    So far, ria reported from someone from mod, so I trust them it was the radar.
    Voronezh can track ballistic inbounds, the only problem here is that the target probably wasn't high enough for it to see, as it wasn't headed for Russia. An ICBM or SLBM heading towards Moscow would've had a much higher apogee and would've been easily seen by Voronezh.

    Let me reiterate that this is not a problem per se with the Voronezh radar nor is it meant to imply that it doesn't work. It's just a simple matter of geometry and the fact that the Israeli missile isn't getting all that high.

    GarryB wrote:OTH radar uses radar bounced off the atmosphere to see around the corner of of the terrain in front of it... if it can see around the curve of the earth it should be able to see over some bumps on that earth like mountains.
    That's an OTH-B (backscatter) radar. OTH-SW (surface wave) works differently and would be susceptible to terrain-induced blind zones. Voronezh isn't an OTH-B simply because the design is much too small. The wavelengths involved, power requirements, and other factors make OTH-B arrays generally huge. Hence the OTH-SW suggestion, as those can be made a lot smaller.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  Arrow on Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:02 pm

    http://russianforces.org/blog/2013/09/russian_early_warning_system_i.shtml


    In the near future, the U.S. will has hypersonic cruise missile and will will fly at a much lower trajectory than ICBM and SLBM warhead. They will be invisible to Voronezh radar system.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  SOC on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:14 pm

    OK, so the thinking there is that Silver Sparrow must have a much higher apogee than 100 km. If that's the case then clearly Voronezh could've tracked it for a portion of the flight.

    Also, Voronezh will be able to track lower-altitude weapons, just not as far out.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:09 pm

    Arrow wrote:http://russianforces.org/blog/2013/09/russian_early_warning_system_i.shtml


    In the near future, the U.S. will has hypersonic cruise missile and will will fly at a much lower trajectory than ICBM and SLBM warhead. They will be invisible to Voronezh radar system.
    When is this "near future" ?

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  Viktor on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:23 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Arrow wrote:http://russianforces.org/blog/2013/09/russian_early_warning_system_i.shtml


    In the near future, the U.S. will has hypersonic cruise missile and will will fly at a much lower trajectory than ICBM and SLBM warhead. They will be invisible to Voronezh radar system.
    When is this "near future" ?
    Russian prediction is 2025-2030. He is speaking about Mach 20 sustained at up to 100km altitude.

    Those are the threats Russian scientists predict S-500 will have to deal with.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  Austin on Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:14 am

    Sadly S-500 induction dates have changed they first said 2016 and now Air Force chief at MAKS states 2018.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  TR1 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:53 am

    Can't say I am really sad about it given S-400 induction.
    No rush here really.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:02 am

    Arrow wrote:http://russianforces.org/blog/2013/09/russian_early_warning_system_i.shtml


    In the near future, the U.S. will has hypersonic cruise missile and will will fly at a much lower trajectory than ICBM and SLBM warhead. They will be invisible to Voronezh radar system.
    Even today's cruise missiles are invisible to the Voronezh-class radar systems; I hate to break it to you.
    No way an early-warning radar would be able to track a missile hundreds of kilometres away following an algorithm-based flight path and hugging the terrain a few dozen metres above the ground. It doesn't matter how fast or slow such an object would be travelling.

    The Voronezh radar is made for tracking ballistic trajectories.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:06 am

    Anyway; all the press releases and released information specify exactly the Voronezh system as having tracked this missile.

    Why would they claim the radar at Armavir tracked it, if in fact it wasn't the Radar at Armavir?

    I suppose there could be reasons. Perhaps Russia has a sneaky S-300 radar or some other equipment operational in Syria that it doesn't want anyone to know about; and so they claimed that the Voronezh-type Radar tracked it instead.

    But that's a little far-fetched.

    So until we have more information; a great Huzzah! for the Voronezh Radar cheers
    Excellent result.

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  SOC on Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:31 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Anyway; all the press releases and released information specify exactly the Voronezh system as having tracked this missile.

    Why would they claim the radar at Armavir tracked it, if in fact it wasn't the Radar at Armavir?
    The issue is really that the Silver Sparrow appears to have a much higher apogee than previously thought. Based on Black Sparrow's apogee Voronezh shouldn't have been able to see it. It does beg the question that if Israel is producing targets with this kind of performance, have they thought about modifying them as ALBMs...

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    Re: Voronezh EW radar: News

    Post  Arrow on Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:37 pm

    The Voronezh radar is made for tracking ballistic trajectories. wrote:
    Cruise missile attack for Russia would by more danger than balistic missile. Russia would be a problem with the early detection of this missiles.

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