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    Project 949A: Oscar-II

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    Big_Gazza
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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:48 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    max steel wrote:yasen is thumbsup . How many are in service currently ? 5 ?
    1
    And 3 more laid down. But the cost is so enormous that Yasen is the most expensive ssgn. So I dont think it will end up in the numbers one expects. I can see them coming up with either new Kilos with much more extended range and a cheaper nuclear reactor submarine.  The nuclear attack subs are semi important, but not by much. But I cant see them not acquiring more. So who knows. But what we do know is Yasen is far too expensive.

    The Yasen may be expensive, but is essential that Russia has an effective force of state-of-the-art SSN hunter-killers in order to order to match the USNs Seawolves and Virginias. Fielding cheaper but less capable frontline units is not an option if you actually want these boats to hold the line in any future hostilities.

    8 Yasens backed by a modernised ex-Soviet force of 4x Pr 945 Barracuda/Sierra, ~10x Pr 971 Shchuka-B/Akula and 8x Pr 949A Granit/Oscar-II would give Russia an exceptional long-duration submarine attack force, second only to the USN. That assumes a lot of course as the modernisation of the 945, 971 and 949A will depend on the actual condition of the individual boats and will no doubt prove costly, but the potential is there.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:57 am

    You will never see 8 885s and that many of the legacy subs.

    The Navy currently does not even have 50% of its attack boats operational. And not nearly all of them are slated for upgrades that would keep them in service post 2020...

    The 945s being modernized is looking doubtful as well...


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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  runaway on Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:35 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    The Yasen may be expensive, but is essential that Russia has an effective force of state-of-the-art SSN hunter-killers in order to order to match the USNs Seawolves and Virginias.  Fielding cheaper but less capable frontline units is not an option if you actually want these boats to hold the line in any future hostilities.

    I disagree, Yasen are SSGN´s not SSN´s. It would make sense to build a smaller, cheaper and stealthier SSN as a compliment to SSGN´s. A dedicated submarine hunter that can protect the SSGN´s and SSBN´s against opposing submarines. Also it would be as good against surface targets, but with no or limited land attack capabilities.

    I for one see the need for such a platform, a small very stealthy and lethal SSN.


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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  max steel on Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:42 am

    Akulas now reportedly have sound levels equal to or lower than U.S. Los Angeles and possibly the future Virginia-class submarines. It does not represent a particularly severe challenge for the U.S. Navy. "It's meaningless, because they don't have the money to fully operate them and they have so few of them,

    U.S. Navy still outclasses Russia in anti-submarine warfare (ASW), enabling it to better locate and track Russian subs.

    ASW is not simply dueling submarines. It includes aircraft, and helicopters operating from destroyers, where the United States continues to have a significant lead. And it's the computers and communications that sort of ties all of that together .

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:01 am

    runaway wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    The Yasen may be expensive, but is essential that Russia has an effective force of state-of-the-art SSN hunter-killers in order to order to match the USNs Seawolves and Virginias.  Fielding cheaper but less capable frontline units is not an option if you actually want these boats to hold the line in any future hostilities.

    I disagree, Yasen are SSGN´s not SSN´s. It would make sense to build a smaller, cheaper and stealthier SSN as a compliment to SSGN´s. A dedicated submarine hunter that can protect the SSGN´s and SSBN´s against opposing submarines. Also it would be as good against surface targets, but with no or limited land attack capabilities.

    I for one see the need for such a platform, a small very stealthy and lethal SSN.


    Incorrect. Yasen class is most definitely an SNN, but has been given VLS for anti-ship and land-attack capabilities to make them a true multi-role boat. Her advanced sonar system and emphasis on silent operations mark them as hunter-killers, not long-range stand-off missile carriers. The idea that a "Yasen-lite" without VLS will somehow be significantly smaller or cheaper is not really credible. The high cost is due to advanced (ie expensive) on-board systems and any dedicated SSN equivalent will require the same. Elimination of the VLS compartments will reduce boat length and mass, but not by a significant degree. A saving of maybe 15% may be achieved by elimination of the stand-off attack capability (and a big loss in combat capabilities), but will this result in a significant increase of hulls in water? I doubt it...

    Small SSNs are possible (ie the Soviet Lira/Alpha class) but nuclear powerplants tend to be big and expensive, and keeping the size/tonnage down requires exotic design solutions like lead-bismuth liquid metal coolant systems and very high automation levels to reduce crew numbers. While possible, its not cheap, and imposes other limitations such as complex and expensive facilities to support core heating (to keep the coolant molten) while the sub is in port. More than one Lira had to be de-commissioned after her core froze...

    TR1 is correct in saying that conventional AIP boats SSKs are probably the answer for Russia to defend her coastline and SSBN bastions. Small, silent, deadly and comparatively numerous, they are ideal for coast and littoral defence. They can carry sensor and weapon outfits similar in scope to the big Yasens, and their numbers will allow force concentrations in critical areas such as the bastions while their larger nuclear cousins either join them as "squad leaders" or range further afield hunting HATO high-value surface combatants.

    He is also right regarding the low availability of Soviet era SSNs, though how much of this is due to budgetary reasons is hard to tell. I'd like to think that money for refit is the issue and that the boast themselves are basically sound and are capable of serving through the 2020s, but who really knows?

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:09 am

    It is 100% a budgetary issue and has everything to do with the boats not receiving the mid-life overhauls and modernizations that were supposed to by Navy practice in the 2000s.

    971s and 949s are solid boats by design. They can't operate when their reactor needs refueling, or the boat is half-taken apart and stuck with no funding.


    Russia is simply trying to juggle a huge nuclear fleet with a modest budget.
    We are going to see a reduction in the nuclear boat fleet by 2025, have no doubt about it.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:11 am

    max steel wrote:Akulas now reportedly have sound levels equal to or lower than U.S. Los Angeles and possibly the future Virginia-class submarines. It does not represent a particularly severe challenge for the U.S. Navy. "It's meaningless, because they don't have the money to fully operate them and they have so few of them,

    U.S. Navy still outclasses Russia in anti-submarine warfare (ASW), enabling it to better locate and track Russian subs.

    ASW is not simply dueling submarines. It includes aircraft, and helicopters operating from destroyers, where the United States continues to have a significant lead. And it's the computers and communications that sort of ties all of that together .

    US ASW capabilities rely on their detection assets being able to operate in a non-threatening environment. Its more geared to detecting SSN/SSGN preying on shipping routes or HATO surface groups, but Russia simply isn't faced with the same requirements, so has no need to such advanced and extensive capabilities.

    In contrast, Russia's primary role for its navy will be (a) protecting her coastal areas and denying HATO its amphibious landing capabilities (b) protecting SSBN in their bastions. In both scenarios', the contested areas will be well within Russian onshore force projection zones and any HATO ASW assets will need to function in EXTREME threat environments. Its no point having the worlds best subsea detection electronics and unparalled processing power if the air/sea detection assets cannot survive long enough to sweep the contested areas.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:53 am

    For me the worst thing about the fire is that work will go back 2 years at least

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:57 am

    TR1 wrote:It is 100% a budgetary issue and has everything to do with the boats not receiving the mid-life overhauls and modernizations that were supposed to by Navy practice in the 2000s.

    971s and 949s are solid boats by design. They can't operate when their reactor needs refueling, or the boat is half-taken apart and stuck with no funding.


    Russia is simply trying to juggle a huge nuclear fleet with a modest budget.
    We are going to see a reduction in the nuclear boat fleet by 2025, have no doubt about it.

    That is why more improved kilos and kilos with aip are needed. Field more of them to protect Russias coast while they can reduce ssgn fleet to something more modest for longer range.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  runaway on Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:56 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    That is why more improved kilos and kilos with aip are needed. Field more of them to protect Russias coast while they can reduce ssgn fleet to something more modest for longer range.

    Probably thats why they are so stubborn with Lada class, with AIP it can guard these SSBN´s under the ice for weeks and be very very silent.
    But we have probably seen the last series Kilos built for the navy, it will all be Lada´s from now on.

    Big Gazza, what you say is perfectly true, but with advances in reactor tech, a SSN in size of a SSK would not be wrong!
    Nato classifies the Yasen as SSGN i think, but thats make no sense as they classify Virgina as a SSN..


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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:00 am

    George1 wrote:For me the worst thing about the fire is that work will go back 2 years at least

    How do you know?

    The damage has yet to be assessed.
    Might be a lot less.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  max steel on Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:21 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    max steel wrote:Akulas now reportedly have sound levels equal to or lower than U.S. Los Angeles and possibly the future Virginia-class submarines. It does not represent a particularly severe challenge for the U.S. Navy. "It's meaningless, because they don't have the money to fully operate them and they have so few of them,

    U.S. Navy still outclasses Russia in anti-submarine warfare (ASW), enabling it to better locate and track Russian subs.

    ASW is not simply dueling submarines. It includes aircraft, and helicopters operating from destroyers, where the United States continues to have a significant lead. And it's the computers and communications that sort of ties all of that together .

    US ASW capabilities rely on their detection assets being able to operate in a non-threatening environment.  Its more geared to detecting SSN/SSGN preying on shipping routes or  HATO surface groups, but Russia simply isn't faced with the same requirements, so has no need to such advanced and extensive capabilities.

    In contrast, Russia's primary role for its navy will be (a) protecting her coastal areas and denying HATO its amphibious landing capabilities  (b) protecting SSBN in their bastions.  In both scenarios', the contested areas will be well within Russian onshore force projection zones and any HATO ASW assets will need to function in EXTREME threat environments. Its no point having the worlds best subsea detection electronics and unparalled processing power if the air/sea detection assets cannot survive long enough to sweep the contested areas.

    But how will Russia protect its subs from us asw those who are targetting US cities ? Same goes for Russia how they will neutralize those usa subs targetting russia with IRBMs and Tridents because usa subs were targetting cities military bases with nuclear IRBM capable SSBNs since 1960 and was operating 3 new SSBNs during the Cuban missile crisis and at least one of them was within range of Moscow during that entire period.
    They had moscow in cold but they didnt fire .

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:39 pm

    And in the 1960's soviets had boomers off the coast of Hawaii.


    The problem is, you will always have trouble hunting for boomers and in the end, one will always be capable of launching its weapons before being taken down. Russias concern isnt taking down the US boomer but to have theirs protected to be able to use its arsenal. Either or, if a single boomer lets off its weapons, it is game over for humanity.

    Russian boomers can strike far into US within its own waters due to range of ballistic missiles. So more ssgns to provide protection for the boomers is fine. But even then, look at the ranges of improved kilo, add in the duration of time it can stay afloat, 45 days. I bet that is standard and can possibly stay afloat for longer depending how they save their fuel. Maybe or maybe not. But newer vessels may stay under water longer. Point is, they have the distance and endurance to protect a boomer to be within firibg range of a major city or infrastructure for the boomers. SSGN's are fine if you have boomers operating all over for long periods of time, which Russia will still have but not in as big of numbers. Only sub they will have nuclear in numbers are boomers and those are end game weapons.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  max steel on Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:51 pm

    Is it true that in 1960's prior to missile crisis US had its Polaris Program in Artic where they had
    December 1959 USS George Washington (SSBN-598),



    July 9, 1961 USS Robert E. Lee (SSBN-601)



    November 8, 1962 USS Ethan Allen (SSBN-608)

    in North pole carrying A-2 Polaris missile and Kruschev wasn't even aware of it ?



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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:29 am

    max steel wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    max steel wrote:Akulas now reportedly have sound levels equal to or lower than U.S. Los Angeles and possibly the future Virginia-class submarines. It does not represent a particularly severe challenge for the U.S. Navy. "It's meaningless, because they don't have the money to fully operate them and they have so few of them,

    U.S. Navy still outclasses Russia in anti-submarine warfare (ASW), enabling it to better locate and track Russian subs.

    ASW is not simply dueling submarines. It includes aircraft, and helicopters operating from destroyers, where the United States continues to have a significant lead. And it's the computers and communications that sort of ties all of that together .

    US ASW capabilities rely on their detection assets being able to operate in a non-threatening environment.  Its more geared to detecting SSN/SSGN preying on shipping routes or  HATO surface groups, but Russia simply isn't faced with the same requirements, so has no need to such advanced and extensive capabilities.

    In contrast, Russia's primary role for its navy will be (a) protecting her coastal areas and denying HATO its amphibious landing capabilities  (b) protecting SSBN in their bastions.  In both scenarios', the contested areas will be well within Russian onshore force projection zones and any HATO ASW assets will need to function in EXTREME threat environments. Its no point having the worlds best subsea detection electronics and unparalled processing power if the air/sea detection assets cannot survive long enough to sweep the contested areas.

    But how will Russia protect its subs from us asw those who are targetting US cities ? Same goes for Russia how they will neutralize those usa subs targetting russia with IRBMs and Tridents because  usa subs were targetting cities military bases with nuclear IRBM capable SSBNs since 1960 and was operating 3 new SSBNs during the Cuban missile crisis and at least one of them was within range of Moscow during that entire period.
    They had moscow in cold but they didnt fire .

    You assume that Russia needs to target US SSBNs.  My point is that attempting to locate, track and shadow US boomers through the vast expanses of the Pacific and Atlantic firing zones is simply folly.  No amount of resources thrown into such a venture can hope to prevent all US boomers from getting its missile salvo away, and if you cannot stop them all, don't bother trying.

    Russias challenge is to protect her own counterforce deterrent from US interdiction, and the bastion concept is designed for just this purpose.  Concentrate your boomers in a heavily protected area like the Sea of Okhotsk, and concentrate your defences.  SSNs/SSKs and airborne ASW guard against foray by US SSNs, while air force assets enforce air and surface superiority over the region and prevent HATO ASW aircraft and ships from operating.  Bulava and Sineva has enough range to strike anywhere in the US continent from Okhotsk, so there is no need to risk SSBNs in open ocean where distance from Russia mainland and ease of accessibility to US forces would greatly decrease their survivability.

    Security of the Okhotsk bastion would be enhanced in times of high tension by a public and explicit policy that the presence of HATO submarine forces in the bastion will be considered to be an attack on Russias deterrent capabilities, and would be immediately met with the use of nuclear ASW weapons to remove the offending boats.  There must be ZERO tolerance of HATO positioning for a quick kill against counterforce assets.  Such action would speak loudly of planning for imminent first strike and immediate and resolute action would be essential.  Nothing signals to the HATO warmongers about the error of their actions like a 10kT nuclear depth charge vapourising a Seawolf SSN within 5 minutes of entering Russian waters......

    Finally, another consideration is the rapidly developing strategic alliance between Russia and China. I can foresee the possibility in a joint-Bastion policy where BOTH China and Russia concentrate the bulk of their boomers in Okhotsk, and BOTH countries defensive area-denial capabilities are used to project a deep and multi-layered defence screen. This would be a GAME CHANGER and would result in a huge improvement in survivability of both nations counterforce assets.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:03 am



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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:56 am

    Got a question... After Kursk there was a proposal to improve Antey's safety by adding secondary crew escape capsule at the 8th compartment.




    Will Antey got such upgrades for real ?

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:41 pm

    With current budget cuts it is likely fewer upgrades of older vessels will be undertaken, and likely the scope of the upgrades will be reduced/cycled back.


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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:20 pm

    Repair work resumed at Oryol nuclear sub damaged by fire in northwest Russia

    The Oryol (K-266) nuclear submarine (Project 949A Antey) at the Zvyozdochka shipyard in the city of Severodvinsk in northwest Russia's Arkhangelsk Region caught fire on April 7

    ARKHANGELSK, April 15. /TASS/. Scheduled repair work resumed on Wednesday at the Oryol nuclear submarine damaged by fire earlier in the month, Zvyozdochka shipyard spokesman Yevgeny Gladyshev told TASS.

    The Oryol (K-266) nuclear submarine (Project 949A Antey) at the Zvyozdochka shipyard in the city of Severodvinsk in northwest Russia's Arkhangelsk Region caught fire on April 7. Insulation rubber coverings in the interhull space in the stern section of the nuclear sub lying up flamed up during welding work.

    All people on board — employees of the enterprise and submarine personnel — left the submarine quickly, no one was injured. Nuclear fuel from the atom-powered vessel had been unloaded and there were no armaments on board. The fire was extinguished by midnight.

    The sub has been undergoing a major overhaul at the shipyard since November 2013, as a result of which it is to receive new missile weapons.

    Russia’s Investigative Committee launched a criminal case over the fire at the Oryol submarine. The case was launched under the Russian Criminal Code’s Article "Violation of safety regulations during work, which entailed large-scale damage due to negligence."

    Earlier Zvyozdochka representatives assessed the damage inflicted by fire as "insignificant." The enterprise’s leadership assured the Defense Ministry that the repairs will be completed in time, and the sub will return to its service in the Navy in the fourth quarter of 2016.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Viktor on Thu May 14, 2015 12:01 am

    Tomsk is back in the game thumbsup

    The submarine K-150 "Tomsk" was put into operation after repairs

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Tue May 19, 2015 2:48 am

    Is that article true? it says oscars after refurbishment can fire P-800 missiles

    http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/The-Russian-Boats-Are-Burning-5-11-2015.asp

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue May 19, 2015 3:31 am

    George1 wrote:Is that article true? it says oscars after refurbishment can fire P-800 missiles

    http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/The-Russian-Boats-Are-Burning-5-11-2015.asp

    Yes, they're reportedly replacing their "Granit" missiles with Oniks (P-800) and Kalibr/Club-S

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Thu May 21, 2015 2:49 pm

    Pacific Fleet to create nuclear missile sub group by 2020 - source

    A group of five modernized nuclear missile submarines of Project 949AM Antei will be created in the Russian Pacific Fleet five years from now, a source in the Pacific Fleet Staff told Interfax-AVN on Thursday.

    "A group of missile submarines of Project Antei will be created in the Pacific Fleet by 2020. Modernization of the subs at the Zvezda Far Eastern plant will be over by then," he said.

    The submarines K-150 Tomsk, K-132 Irkutsk and K-442 Chelyabinsk will be added alongside operating subs K-186 Omsk and K-456 Tver within five years, the source said.

    "Modernization of the Antei subs will extend their service life by 15-20 years," the fleet representative said.

    It was reported earlier that the K-550 Alexander Nevsky submarine of Project 955 Borei would be moved from the Trans-Polar region to Kamchatka in fall 2015.

    The Vladimir Monomakh submarine will arrive at the Vilyuchinsk submarine base in fall 2016.

    One of the six multirole attack submarines of Project Yasen will join the fleet in 2017.

    Nuclear subs of Project 949A will undergo profound modernization at the Zvezda Far Eastern plant in the upcoming years, the source said. The command plans to re-arm the submarines with Onix and Kalibr missile systems. The Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering designed the submarine modernization project. Twenty-seven Rubin contractors, among them Morinformsistema-Agat Concern and NPO Avrora, will modernize weapons, navigation and other systems and hulls of the submarines.

    The Pacific Fleet possesses five nuclear missile submarines, five nuclear attack submarines and eight non-nuclear attack submarines.

    - http://asia.rbth.com/news/2015/05/21/pacific_fleet_to_create_nuclear_missile_sub_group_by_2020_-_source_46208.html)

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun May 24, 2015 12:36 pm

    George1 wrote:Is that article true? it says oscars after refurbishment can fire P-800 missiles

    http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/The-Russian-Boats-Are-Burning-5-11-2015.asp

    Yes.. i think i saw image here somewhere .. depicting special adaptor for SM-225 launcher for Oscar that contain three Oniks.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Sun May 24, 2015 1:53 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    George1 wrote:Is that article true? it says oscars after refurbishment can fire P-800 missiles

    http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/The-Russian-Boats-Are-Burning-5-11-2015.asp

    Yes.. i think i saw image here somewhere .. depicting special adaptor for SM-225 launcher for Oscar that contain three Oniks.

    are there any photos/videos of Oscars firing Oniks?

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