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    Project 949A: Oscar-II

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    George1
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    Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Sun May 06, 2012 11:30 am

    The Russian Navy currently operates several kinds of multi-purpose submarines. The largest are the Oscar II class cruise missile submarines, built mostly in the 1980s and armed with P-700 Granit cruise missiles. Eight of these submarines are available to the navy, though at least three are currently in reserve or being repaired. As currently configured, their sole real purpose is to hunt down US carrier groups, though this is made difficult in practice by their large size and noisiness, characteristics that make them relatively easy to spot. In the future, they could be equipped with newer cruise missiles to expand their range of missions. Two more Oscar IIs were never completed but could be finished in the future, though it seems to me that this would not be a wise expenditure of limited procurement resources.

    Maybe the future of these submarines is conversion to launch land attack cruise missiles?
    Too heavy and noisy for carrier hunters


    Last edited by George1 on Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Austin on Sun May 06, 2012 1:58 pm

    Oscar-2 Noise level is quite respectable lower than Akula-1 , Check US Navy Intelligence Estimates ( ONI )



    Oscar-2 submarine will be upgraded with Kalbir and Onisk missile and noise level will be reduced.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  TR1 on Sun May 06, 2012 9:35 pm

    That chart is meaningless, to be honest.

    WHat basis do you have for saying they are noisy?

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Austin on Mon May 07, 2012 6:58 am

    TR1 wrote:That chart is meaningless, to be honest.

    They are just trends on how noise has progressed on Broad Band spectrum , its not avery accurate figure and thats the closest you get for any official acknowledgment

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 07, 2012 9:18 am

    The Russian Navy is way ahead of you George1...

    The old single purpose dedicated tubes are being replaced by UKSK type tubes that can carry and launch all new naval cruise missiles... including antiship, land attack, and anti submarine.

    The new hypersonic 1,000km range missiles for the Yasen will likely be compatible too as they will almost certainly be very long and slim missiles.

    Just looking at the modules for the UKSK launcher I rather suspect that if you wanted to fit a very large missile you could replace 4 tubes with a single very large missile so a single UKSK launcher bin with 8 missile tubes could carry two very heavy missiles too.

    Perhaps this new missile, though by all reports it is suggested that the new cruise missile for the Yasen will be carried in its 24 tube vertical launchers. This would suggest to me that it is similar in size to Granit and might be a Granit with a ramjet propulsion. Note Moskit and Onyx are much smaller lighter missiles, with Moskit 4.5 tons and Onyx 2.5 tons,and Granit at 7 tons.

    If this new weapon is 7 tons with ramjet propulsion then the development of scramjet technology from the Brahmos II program could be applied to this new weapon and greatly increase performance further.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Austin on Mon May 07, 2012 9:26 am

    New hypersonic weapon ( 1000 km ) will be scramjet only , ramjet cant give you hypersonic speed.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Mon May 07, 2012 9:44 am

    GarryB wrote:The Russian Navy is way ahead of you George1...

    The old single purpose dedicated tubes are being replaced by UKSK type tubes that can carry and launch all new naval cruise missiles... including antiship, land attack, and anti submarine.


    UKSK type tubes will be installed in Oscar II also? I thought they would just replace P-700 with Yakont

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Austin on Mon May 07, 2012 12:23 pm

    George1 wrote: UKSK type tubes will be installed in Oscar II also? I thought they would just replace P-700 with Yakont

    No UKSK on Oscar-2 , the granit launcher or a modified variant can accomodate 3 Kalbir or 3 Onisk


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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Austin on Mon May 07, 2012 12:34 pm

    Some Old but Nice Read

    To Catch The Quite Ones
    Rubin: To Build A Better Sub
    Malachite Subs Post Proud Tradation

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  TR1 on Mon May 07, 2012 10:08 pm

    The current trend is to overhaul and extend life span of Anteiis by several years.
    The Voronezh, and now the Smolensk, are examples of this.
    The experience of this short modernization will be, according to Zvezdochka, be used to modernize/overhaul Bars attack boas.

    Later in the decade, we will see the more radical re-armament of the vessels, bringing them up to latest standards. The hulls are good and very spacious, plenty of space for modernization.
    I think this is excellent development which will allow numbers to be kept up (let's be honest, there won't be quite enough 885s even by 2020), give repair shipyards work, and keep the Russian Navy's trump card, underwater strike forces.


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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 08, 2012 9:02 am

    New hypersonic weapon ( 1000 km ) will be scramjet only , ramjet cant give you hypersonic speed.

    The definition of hypersonic speed is mach 5 or faster and ramjets can be operated at speeds above mach 6.

    Scramjets, in comparison can operate to orbital speeds.

    BTW regarding UKSK tubes you are quite right that current plans are for Onyx missiles to be fitted directly into modified Granit launch tubes.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Austin on Tue May 08, 2012 9:46 am

    GarryB wrote:
    New hypersonic weapon ( 1000 km ) will be scramjet only , ramjet cant give you hypersonic speed.

    The definition of hypersonic speed is mach 5 or faster and ramjets can be operated at speeds above mach 6.

    Never came across any ramjets that can practically sustain a Mach 5 plus , that would only be done by Supersonic Ramjet or Scramjet

    Scramjets, in comparison can operate to orbital speeds.

    They can but that would need sophisticated scramjets , right now the goal is to get a speed of between mach 5 to Mach 7 for cruise missile at a later stage they would go as high as Mach 12-13 both using scramjets. The Mach number also varies from Altitude. Also Scramjet would need atmosphere to suck in oxygen

    Regarding plasma that was disclosed by Russian scientist them self in an interview , missile operating above mach 7 would create plasma in the atmosphere making RF communication difficult.


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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 3:34 am

    Ramjets can operate over a fairly wide range of altitudes and speeds... early tests of ramjets include fitting them to Polikarpov I-15 Biplanes that are slower than quite a few types of car.

    The only real difference between a ramjet and a scramjet is that in a scramjet the air is supersonic as the fuel is added and ignited, while a ramjet restricts the incoming air and compresses it to subsonic speeds before fuel is added and it is blasted out the back to produce thrust.

    Efficient ramjet speeds are mach 3-4, but it is capable of producing speeds faster than mach 5.

    Scramjets on the other hand have no real max speed limitation because the fuel is burned supersonically so there is no need for so much compression and intake ramp constriction used in a ramjet to reduce the airflow to subsonic speeds so the engine doesn't choke on the supersonic air.

    Travelling at high altitude is not a problem because the very high speed means that although the air might be colder and thinner the volume of air scooped up is enormous simply because of the flight speed, so there is no issue with using a scramjet engine.

    In fact being able to close off the intake and using onboard Slush Hydrogen fuel and oxygen fuel for burning the hydrogen would allow an aircraft to take off with rocket power (LOX and Liquid hydrogen), then fly and accelerate on ramjet and then scramjet to orbital speed and then when exiting the atmosphere the use of puffer thrusters using nitrogen (inert cheap gas that makes up about 70% of the atmosphere) for manouvering and hydrogen/oxygen rocket propulsion from major changes in orbit and to slow down for reentry it will be the first Aerospace interceptor that can engage targets inside and outside the atmosphere...


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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Austin on Fri May 11, 2012 6:43 am

    In theory/experiments you might be able to take a ramjet beyond Mach 5 but in actual practise you will get Mach 3 - 3.5 at best.

    One of the reason why Indo-Russian Brahmos 2 which has speed from Mach 5-7 uses scramjet engine.

    I am fairly certain at this point that Zircon-S will use some from of Scramjet engine which they have been testing for nearly decade on Topol and other classified programs.

    I told you Russia currently has two programs for Scramjet the initial one which we will see this decade in form of Zircon-S and Brahmos-2 is a Mach 5 -7 class missile and next decade the goal post will move further with Mach 12-13 class missile.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 12:25 pm

    In theory/experiments you might be able to take a ramjet beyond Mach 5 but in actual practise you will get Mach 3 - 3.5 at best.

    They tested a ramjet engine mounted on the nose of an S-200 missile in the 1990s and it took the missile from its top speed of mach 5 to a little over mach 6.5 for about 1 minute and 30 seconds.

    The flight distance in those 90 seconds was about 188km, so a redesigned missile with a new smaller and lighter rocket motor and a much larger fuel tank and of course guidance and a warhead and you have something...

    Remember a flight range of 1,000km means a large fuel tank and plenty of time to accelerate so it might start with a rocket and accelerate and climb rapidly to mach 1 or mach 2 and then use the ramjet engine to accelerate to mach 5-6 over a few hundred kms. As it burns fuel it will get lighter and faster.



    Note the ramjet engine on the tip of the nose?

    The solid rocket boosters fell away after they were spent but the body of the missile remained attached with the seeker and warhead area containing fuel for the nose mounted ramjet engine.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Fri May 18, 2012 9:09 pm

    Austin wrote:
    George1 wrote: UKSK type tubes will be installed in Oscar II also? I thought they would just replace P-700 with Yakont

    No UKSK on Oscar-2 , the granit launcher or a modified variant can accomodate 3 Kalbir or 3 Onisk


    Τhat means 72 Oniks/Kalibr missiles?

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Fri May 18, 2012 9:23 pm

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=14659

    Project 949A Antei nuclear-powered submarines will be completed and modernized, Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief ADM Vladimir Vysotsky told Izvestiya.

    According to him, "we will complete Belgorod and other subs of that project", reports Izvestiya.

    Experts suppose Antei-class submarines will be armed with new cruise missiles with range up to 1,500 km.

    In particular, the newspaper cites Capt 1 rank (retired) Konstantin Sivkov, vice president of Geopolitics Academy saying that Antei-class subs would be equipped with Caliber missiles in order to destroy missile defense assets deployed in Europe. According to a spokesman for Sevmash, the shipyard received the order only for completion of SSN Belgorod. By the way, the new project has substantial distinctions and may even obtain another name.

    Source in United Shipbuilding Corporation told Izvestiya that SSN Belgorod would be a non-combat submarine used for intelligence purposes.

    According to Izvestiya, "Russian Navy currently operates seven Project 949A Antei submarines, other two subs are under long-term repair, and another one is being prepared for dismantling. In addition, there is a non-completed hull of Antei-class submarine mothballed in 1998. Take note, maintenance of under-built subs costs Sevmash several billions rubles a year, and the Navy does not compensate those expenses".

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 19, 2012 1:57 am

    Τhat means 72 Oniks/Kalibr missiles?

    Not confirmed AFAIK.

    The original Oscar and Oscar II vessels dind't have 24 launchers for Granit, they had 12 twin missile launchers... 6 on each side with 6 main hatch doors.

    The question is, when they say they can fit a triple Onyx launcher in the space of each Granit twin launcher, or each Granit missile.

    Sounds cool that it might be adapted to carry 72 missiles in place of the 24, and in terms of weight it shouldn't be a problem as the Granit is 7.5 tons while Onyx is 2.5 in the air launched model and about 3.5 tons in the sub launched model. It will be heavier but we are not talking about triple the weight here.

    I personally think the new triple pack of missiles is to replace the twin launcher, so the missile load will be 36, which is not as good as 72, but still better than 24.

    The original Granit hunted in packs of 12, but I would expect the improved datalink capabilities of the Onyx should allow a volley of 36 missiles for each target if not more.

    (Note they could launch hundreds of Granits at a target, but all 100 would not work together for the kill... you would have 8 groups of 12 missiles each working together and 4 missiles working together, so 9 missiles would climb and look for targets and pass targeting data down to the other missiles in the group and back to the launch vessels via satellite link, with all 100 attacking the battlegroup...

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 19, 2012 2:01 am

    Experts suppose Antei-class submarines will be armed with new cruise missiles with range up to 1,500 km.

    In particular, the newspaper cites Capt 1 rank (retired) Konstantin Sivkov, vice president of Geopolitics Academy saying that Antei-class subs would be equipped with Caliber missiles in order to destroy missile defense assets deployed in Europe.

    The subsonic all the way land attack Kalibre has a range of 2,500km... I suspect a 1,500km range model could be the two stage supersonic version... which they might use to breach defences the subsonic model might not be able to penetrate. Alternatively it could be the assets they are talking about countering are AEGIS class cruisers, for which a mach 3 terminal stage might be the best weapon to distract the targets to look down when they should be looking up...

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:55 pm


    Well.anyway anything new related to Granit ? did they get upgrades or simply retired..replaced with something new ?

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:08 pm

    In terms of 949?

    Still serving.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:56 am

    The Kuznetsov will likely lose its Granit launchers during its major overhaul. I rather suspect that vessels they want to retain long range anti ship capability, like Oscar class subs, and Kirov class capital ships that rather than upgrade Granit, they will more likely install launchers/adapters to allow Onyx missiles to be fitted in their place.

    Remember that Oniks and Brahmos are the same size and basic shape, so when Brahmos II is ready with its scramjet propulsion and mach 6+ flight speed the Russian Navy can switch production from Onyx to Brahmos II but with no flight range restriction, so in many ways it will be Onyx II.

    There is also talk of a replacement rocket based hypersonic missile they are working on, which makes sense and is possibly a backup in case there are problems or limitations with Brahmos II.

    Certainly if Brahmos II is totally successful then it could become the standard heavy high speed AShM with UKSK launchers on subs and ships and of course adaptation for Flanker, PAK FA, and Su-34, and of course Tu-22M3M and Tu-142M/Tu-95MSM use for anti shipping roles, and as a shore based system to replace Yakhont/Onyx.


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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:22 am

    TR1 wrote:In terms of 949?

    Still serving.

    I see..thanks Very Happy

    And one more question.. is there still any prospect of saturation missile strike against ..say carrier fleet protected by ships that uses active radar homing missiles or at least SARH guided missile that uses phased array illuminator in the manner of Nederland's APAR.

    As far as i know.. the bottleneck of the previous gen AEGIS system with AN/SPG-52/62 combo was limitations on how many missiles that can be guided simultaneously against a target (AEGIS cruiser only carries 4 AN/52, Arly carries 3)..having phased array radar or active missiles essentially eliminates this bottleneck ..as it allows the ship to engage more targets.

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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:30 am

    Radar can be jammed and decoyed...false radar track beams can be bounced off the sea behind the sea skimming missile.

    When planning an attack you generally take the vessels that make up the target to design your attack around.

    A battlegroup sailing around with radars scanning for targets gives away its position... a group with radars off will need 3-5 minutes to turn them on from cold... an attack during a storm at night... or in the middle of a refuelling session or while passing though an island chain etc etc.

    Remember on paper the exocet missiles of the Argentiine navy should never have gotten through British defences... but they did.

    Also keep in mind that support vessels are a much more valuable target most of the time and their loss would be far more devastating on an attack force than even the loss of a major ship... imagine the ship with all the heavy armour is sunk... how will that effect the invasion?


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    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:33 pm

    Zvezdochka Shipyard Launched SSGN Smolensk

    Project 949A Antei submarine Smolensk was launched at Zvezdochka Ship Repair Center, a source in Russian defense industry told Central Navy Portal.

    Slipway phase of repair has been completed. In the night of Aug 5, was put afloat.

    Smolensk was laid up for technical recovery in Sept 2011. Most of hull and dock works were done during the slipway phase of repair. After launching, the overhaul will be continued afloat.

    Shipwrights of Zvezdochka will reload reactor core and carry out other repair works on the sub's hardware. Upon termination of repairs, service life of SSBN Smolensk will be 3 years longer.

    The submarine is to be recommissioned in the summer of 2013.

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