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    Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

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    Mr.Kalishnikov47
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    Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:33 pm

    http://torderiul.livejournal.com/160447.html

    You'll find the picture near the bottom of the page



    I recommend you actually read the article itself instead of just skipping to the pictures, as it is a very interesting read. I've never actually seen a picture of the AN-94 other than the promotional pics, so this is a big deal for me.


    Last edited by Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:37 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:10 am

    http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=ru_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.tsniitochmash.ru%2fequipment%2fbarmitsa_02.html

    This is their future soldier program, though I think in the near future they will change the AK-74 and AN-94 to ADS and AK-12 or something similar. The ADS seems to already have been accepted into service in the VDV and I would expect if it met their requirements that the Russian Naval Infantry will accept it too.

    The question is whether they will go for the AK-12... which appears to me to be the best choice out of the AK-74 and AN-94, or wait for a fully modular multi calibre weapon created from scratch... or indeed a multi calibre AK-12 developed for India.

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:34 am

    I remember in the video showcasing the Russian future soldier system the soldier was holding an AK-107. Although the odds of that actually being the outcome seem somewhat slim.

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:05 am

    I think nothing is set in stone yet... if the AK-12 passes its trials it would make sense to make it part of the future soldier program, just as the ADS has already been accepted so it will likely be added in due time.

    Keep in mind that the page I gave a link for showed three different pistols and two rifles... which just means that some soldiers will be issued with a specific pistol and a specific rifle... they can't all get all three pistols and both rifles.

    Different units will get different weapons options.

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:19 am

    Yes I'm speaking more on the levels of standard issue than individual units though. I don't see the 107 becoming all that popular mostly because Izhmash seems to be more interested in selling their newer product, the AK-12, but as you said, nothing is set in stone.

    I mean don't get me wrong I'd love to see the 107 in service. It's just got a lot going against it.




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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:20 am

    Their future soldier program is designed to create standard sets of equipment for all soldiers so as they develop new weapons and put them into service they will be added to the Future Soldier kit.

    Right now there is no Russian rifle in 338 LM in the kit yet we know they are creating Sniper platoons whose task it is to engage enemy at extended ranges for which the SVD is not a useful tool.

    They will likely get an SV-338 eventually which is a bolt action weapon, and for the spotter in the team they will need a rifle with reach but able to fire at least semi auto, so I would expect that if the AK-12 is accepted into service after testing it has not complex internal mechanism like the AN-94 yet has improvements that make it rather better than the AK and AN-94 without being expensive or much more costly to produce so I could see the AK-12 in its various designs replacing Vityaz, AKS-74U, AK-105, AK-74M, and in a 6 x 49mm version even the SVD and RPK-74. They could also make 12 gauge versions and 9 x 39mm versions to replace the AS and VSS.

    This would mean they could use the AK-12 family to replace the existing Kalashnikov and Dragunov family, and the ADS can be the standard rifle for some of the special units in the Naval Infantry and in the VDV.

    The AK-12 appears to me to be a huge step up in terms of ergonomics and handling without making it more complicated or expensive to make.

    The ADS is just something else again and has a full length rifle barrel in a compact package that looks like a toy.

    Lots of units will still have access to specialist tools, but the future soldier system is the base equipment set for the Russian Army.

    With their priority shifting from firepower to accuracy I can see them turning away from the AK-107 and more towards the AK-12 and ADS... especially if India sticks to their guns and demands a multi calibre weapon which the AK-12 could be made into.

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:44 am

    Yeah that makes sense I suppose. Except that as far as I know, the whole concept of accuracy over firepower is using single shot placement to help the soldier miss as little as possible. So if you can put a burst of five rounds into somebody's torso from, I don't know, lets say 100 meters with an AK-107, instead of 1 round with an AK-12, doesn't that basically make single shot placement sort of inferior to the concept behind the 107? Unless you're looking to conserve ammo I guess.

    Your other points still hold true though. The AK-12 is a big improvement over the current AK-74, being more modular and user friendly, while still being cheap enough to be worth purchasing in large numbers, at least supposedly. It's a more practical, conservative choice than the AK-107. Not too much risk involved, which is never a bad thing.

    Wait a second! Haven't we already had this conversation?

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:15 am

    A lot of the roles the Russian military forces will be involved in might include so called police actions where firing one bullet into a target identified as the problem it is actually more important to not hit innocent bystanders than to immediately hit the target.

    The addition of rails suggest that the deployment of optical sights is going to be increased which makes shooting easier, and also lets the soldiers see better what they are shooting at, but without an improvement in accuracy it would just let them see better what they might hit.

    A key problem with weapons that let you engage targets at longer range is the cost of giving you the equipment and situational awareness to find such targets in the first place.

    To the naked eye a man standing in the open at 400m is a dot so having an uber rifle like an M4 or M16 or the latest German uber tool is a bit of a waste of time if you don't issue them with optics to let them shoot that far.

    Part of the future soldier program includes night vision and day optics allowing longer range engagement.

    The balanced recoil design of the AK-107 makes the weapon more controllable in full auto, but making the bolt and bolt carrier in the AK-12 as well as a forward pistol grip as well as a three round burst option should make it easier to control too without the complication and expense of a balanced recoil mechanism.

    Actually I think if they can base the AK-12 on the standard AK-74 design then it would not be that hard to base an AK-12B model on the AK-107 balanced recoil mechanism and test them against each other to see which is better.

    Balanced recoil mechanisms are not new to the Russian Army... in the 1970s when they were looking for a replacement for the AKM there were balanced recoil mechanism rifles competing, but they lost to the simplicity and low cost of the AK-74. The AN-94 won despite being complicated and more expensive to make because the focus was strictly on performance.

    The question is will the focus go back to low cost and simplicity... looking at their stated goals I would say that a balanced recoil mechanism rifle with the features of the AK-12 have their best chance of winning because performance and usability will likely be key this time around even if it costs a little more.

    Remember the US attempts to replace the M16 that included caseless ammo, flechettes, and double bullet loadings but in the end the cost of changing to a new rifle and new ammo simply wasn't warranted by the results... most of the alternatives were better than an M16 and the 5.56mm round but not significantly better.

    For instance the Steyr rifle used flechette ammo and had fixed Iron sights because there was no need to chance elevation out to 800m to hit the target. The problem was that the flechettes were not as accurate as bullets and when they hit targets they either punched a neat little hole right through the target, or the projectile bent and made a terrible mess.

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:30 am

    There are much too many arguments in that argument for me to counter. I give up. Sometimes I wonder if you didn't spend your childhood on a professional debate team. Smile

    I could have sworn this was a thread about an AN-94 at one point. You know what I find interesting is in the pictures you can see that these particular soldiers have access to atleast one AN-94, but in the pictures where they're training the only assault rifle they're armed with are the standard AK's, and in one case an AS VAL. So does this mean that it's true that the Russian troops aren't all that fond of the AN-94, or do they exclusively use the 74 for the assault rifle role when they're doing exercises?


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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:45 am

    Hey, this isn't an argument... this is a discussion... Smile

    I am not telling you you are wrong, I am telling you what I think and why.

    You are quite right and I am off topic... my appologies... Smile

    Regarding your comment perhaps the AN-94 is not the best rifle to clean and maintain and the standard AK is accurate enough... Smile

    Of course judging by blog photo spread is difficult as the blogger might just have gotten too excited when the AN-94s came out and all those photos were fuzzy... Twisted Evil

    Certainly when Georgian forces went to war against South Ossetia they had access to M4s and Negev LMGs but they left those in their arms caches and took AKs with them to combat... when your life is on the line it seems they want to use something they know and trust.0

    I guess I would probably be the same but fortunately have never been put in that situation.

    I remember reading a US soldier saying that if he had to go to Mars to fight an alien invasion he would take an AK because of its reliability.

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:21 am

    Couldn't agree more. It's a shame really, the AN-94 really does have a lot of potential, it's just that any potential that it has is buried by countless flaws regarding ergonomics, and of course the massive amount of internal parts.

    I definitely would not want to be the guy who has to disassemble that thing while under fire. No

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:38 am

    I think I would find the barrel moving back and forth during firing the most disconcerting thing... complex internals would be a pain... but with proper training and practise you could probably get used to almost anything.

    The underbarrel grenade launcher is attached to the lower stock and doesn't move with the barrel as it recoils, but the bayonet is attached to the barrel... I wonder what effect the extra weight would have on the rate of fire.

    Of course there is evil genius in the design for close combat... stab them in the chest with your bayonet and then fire a burst of 4-5 rounds would have the barrel and bayonet jabbing in and out of the guys chest in addition to 4-5 rounds hitting him at point blank range... nasty Twisted Evil

    I would think for a police officer that the two round burst would be very useful as they are often trained to "double tap" with pistol rounds as two hits is likely to bring down a fellon faster than a single hit... this weapon has a built in double tap option and in police type situations they could deal with the added complexity of the weapon and spend the extra time maintaining it.

    Of course not many modern weapons have pulleys and cables as part of their design... just off the top of my head the only other weapons that have such things are 30mm AGLs and 12.7mm HMGs for loading that first round with a very heavy recoil spring.

    In terms of ergonomics and ease of use however it is not totally awful.. it has a western style peep iron sight and the controls are located closer to where you can reach them easily.

    The magazine does stick out at a strange angle, but unlike the standard AK you can fit the bayonet and the underbarrel grenade launcher at the same time while still being able to use both.

    The muzzle brake of the AN-94 is interesting and I wouldn't mind testing it... I have the AK-74 type muzzle attachment for my chinese AKM and I also have the model fitted to the AKS-74U and of course the AKM muzzle brake, though I prefer to use a suppressor.

    I have a locally made suppressor, but would love to get my hands on an original Soviet model, though I hear they have rubber "wipes" in them that need to be replaced after 10-20 shots have been fired which sounds like a bit of a pain.

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:07 am

    Ah yes I didn't even consider the effect that big bar of steel moving back in forth in your gun would have on your accuracy. It seems that this would actually make the AN-94 a less effective choice than the AK on anything but two round burst mode.

    I also failed to consider the barrel mounted bayonet. Wouldn't this actually add to the felt recoil of the weapon, due to having more weight slamming back towards you with each shot?

    When I mentioned ergonomics I was referring to the awful pistol grip and that jagged looking front end. Also the selector switch, which still cannot be easily changed with one hand despite what was advertised. On top of that, learning to put the magazine in at such an odd angle would probably take a lot of getting used to.

    While being able to use both the bayonet and the grenade launcher on the weapon at the same time is no doubt an advantage, I honestly don't feel that bayonets are really all that necessary in modern conflict, at least in the vast majority of cases.

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:58 am

    In theory a weight on the end of the barrel might actually improve accuracy like a barrel weight is used to dampen vibrations during firing, but the fact that it becomes part of the recoilling barrel would effect rate of fire (by lowering it slightly) it will also increase felt recoil by adding to the mass moving back and forth.

    Of course the weapon cycles two shots before the barrel hits its stop so any negative effect would likely effect the 3rd and later shots in theory.

    Urban combat is quite likely and in house to house fighting a bayonet would be very useful as a quick reaction weapon that doesn't make a lot of noise... it is a huge advantage in hand to hand combat to be able to step back and still reach your opponent...

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    Re: Picture of the AN-94 in service (Kind of)

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:06 pm

    Oh alright, thanks for clearing that up. Smile

    GarryB wrote:Urban combat is quite likely and in house to house fighting a bayonet would be very useful as a quick reaction weapon that doesn't make a lot of noise... it is a huge advantage in hand to hand combat to be able to step back and still reach your opponent...

    Hmm, if bayonets are so useful why do we not see the MVD and FSB guys using bayonets on their rifles during firefights in the North Caucasus? I'd think you'd want your rifle to be as short as possible in a house to house fighting scenario, so you can handle corners more effectively, as well as having better maneuverability in general. a bayonet does the opposite of all that.

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