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    New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:51 pm


    And it's finished:

    New spacecraft 'delayed' in latest setback for Russia

    https://news.sky.com/story/new-spacecraft-delayed-in-latest-setback-for-russia-11439311


    Next step: cancelation


    Like I said, Angara is not capable of delivering Federation into orbit because it lacks whole 4 tons of payload capacity.

    Trampoline Man decided to push for Angara at the expense of every other space project they have because he sees it as his chance to get the upper hand in that "feud" he thinks he has with Elon Musk (which is funny since Musk is probably not aware of the fact that Trampoline Man even exists)


    Here is how things will go down, same pattern as always:

    -Angara is declared Russia's new "super-heavy" rocket (ROFL)

    -Designers of Federation are ordered (again) to trim down 4 tons off the spacecraft (impossible to do without turning it into flying casket)

    -Federation is declared incapable of carrying out Russia's "ambitious" space goals

    -Massive redesign of Federation is ordered

    -In the meantime new design for manned spacecraft is ordered, one that will have "no foreign analogues"​ lol1

    -Federation is quietly cancelled ("new" spacecraft as well soon afterwards)

    -"Upgraded" old Soyuz capsule is declared Russia's new gen spacecraft (maybe it will get new paintjob but most likely they will just add extra letter to the name and call it a day)



    Federation will soon be joining long line of paper fanart projects like Baikal, Rus-M and Clipper

    RIP thumbsup
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    Nibiru

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  Nibiru on Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:01 pm

    A very sad development for the Russian space industry. Perhaps its preparation for Russia's eventual surrender to the west  respekt
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Federation will soon be joining long line of paper fanart projects like Baikal, Rus-M and Clipper

    Oh just STFU with this pathetic crusade. What the heck is your problem? Rapidly losing respect for you as a poster in this forum, you're degenerating into a bipolar Eehnie clone. Suspect


    Nibiru wrote:A very sad development for the Russian space industry. Perhaps its preparation for Russia's eventual surrender to the west

    FFS... a Western MSM article quotes un-named "people" and the wailing begins from the fuktards who still, after all these fucking years, haven't figured out that the MO of our corporate media is to shit-can everything Russia does and cast it in the worst light possible. Who are these "people"? The janitor and tea-trolley lady?

    Typical shit-eating touch at the end of the article with a mandatory section about some past unrelated Russian failure, this time about Meteor-M lost due to Fregat software fuckup. Whats the bet the same stenographer would not have mentioned the failed Zuma launch in an article on manned Dragon? Pathetic biased BS from our despicable corporate media presstitutes...


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    kvs

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  kvs on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:57 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Federation will soon be joining long line of paper fanart projects like Baikal, Rus-M and Clipper

    Oh just STFU with this pathetic crusade.  What the heck is your problem?  Rapidly losing respect for you as a poster in this forum, you're degenerating into a bipolar Eehnie clone.   Suspect


    Nibiru wrote:A very sad development for the Russian space industry. Perhaps its preparation for Russia's eventual surrender to the west

    FFS... a Western MSM article quotes un-named "people" and the wailing begins from the fuktards who still, after all these fucking years, haven't figured out that the MO of our corporate media is to shit-can everything Russia does and cast it in the worst light possible.  Who are these "people"?  The janitor and tea-trolley lady?  

    Typical shit-eating touch at the end of the article with a mandatory section about some past unrelated Russian failure, this time about Meteor-M lost due to Fregat software fuckup.  Whats the bet the same stenographer would not have mentioned the failed Zuma launch in an article on manned Dragon?  Pathetic biased BS from our despicable corporate media presstitutes...



    You have basically closed this BS "case" for good.

    From the announcement about the CH4, and liquid hydrogen engines combination on the Soyuz-5 it looks like Russian space
    hardware development plans are expanding. Instead of just using the RD-171 engines, they will allocate resources to new
    engine development. While forum trolls try to paint the Russian space program as failing, it is actually growing in scale and,
    yes, ambition.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:00 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Federation will soon be joining long line of paper fanart projects like Baikal, Rus-M and Clipper

    Oh just STFU with this pathetic crusade. What the heck is your problem? Rapidly losing respect for you as a poster in this forum, you're degenerating into a bipolar Eehnie clone....

    Yeah because forum respect is high on my life's priority list...

    Like I said before, I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong on this topic and I will definitely be first one to crack open a beer and celebrate should that happen...


    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Nibiru wrote:A very sad development for the Russian space industry. Perhaps its preparation for Russia's eventual surrender to the west

    FFS... a Western MSM article quotes un-named "people" and the wailing begins.....

    Under normal circumstances nobody would give a shit about unnamed people but with Trampoline Man in the equation only an idiot would assume anything other than worst scenario.
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    Nibiru

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  Nibiru on Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:50 am

    Federatsiya manned spacecraft to be built within shortest time — Roscosmos chief



    MOSCOW, July 18. /TASS/. A Federatsiya (Federation) manned spacecraft is to be built within the shortest possible period of time to be launched by a Soyuz-5 carrier rocket from the Baikonur space center, head of Russia’s state space corporation Roscosmos Dmitry Rogozin said on Wednesday.

    "We plan that this spacecraft will be built within the shortest possible period of time. We will pool all our efforts, including the technical client department, which will control the work of Energia Rocket and Space Corporation on this project. We plan that the first trials of this spaceship will be carried out when launches of Soyuz-5 carrier rockets begin from Baikonur under the Baiterek project," he said.

    http://tass.com/science/1013894

    some piece of good news, I hope they will live up to their words. Also, Soyuz-5 should be primarily launched from Vostochny not Baikonur.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:58 am


    Last week he was ranting how Federation will be launched from Angara and this week it's back to Soyuz-5

    After he said that Soyuz-5 is unsatisfactory

    I like that intelligent plan is back in vogue for this particular week but he should make up his miniscule mind already and commit for real
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    Nibiru

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  Nibiru on Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:33 am


    Last week he was ranting how Federation will be launched from Angara and this week it's back to Soyuz-5

    After he said that Soyuz-5 is unsatisfactory

    I like that intelligent plan is back in vogue for this particular week but he should make up his miniscule mind already and commit for real


    Maybe its just part of Russian Maskirovka russia
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:31 am

    For space industry? No.

    Guarantee Rogozin was put in his place.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:30 am

    Nibiru wrote:Also, Soyuz-5 should be primarily launched from Vostochny not Baikonur.

    Launching from Baikonour should allow a quicker onset of Federation launches. They have a Zenit pad that should be mostly consistent with a kerolox Soyuz 5 and should only require a relatively small degree of modernisation (unlike the unfinished Zenit at Plesetsk that needed huge development work to adapt to Angara). They also have existing infrastructure for support of manned flights. Current Soyuz flys from Baikonour, so why not Soyuz 5.

    The Vostochny pad for Soyuz 5 & its SHLV variants comes later, and they have time to design it to handle a future methalox core version.

    This way, Russia spends the minimum to get Federation flying, Kazakhstan pays a portion too, and the big investment will be on Russian territory where it belongs. thumbsup
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    flamming_python

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:21 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    And it's finished:

    New spacecraft 'delayed' in latest setback for Russia

    https://news.sky.com/story/new-spacecraft-delayed-in-latest-setback-for-russia-11439311


    Next step: cancelation


    Like I said, Angara is not capable of delivering Federation into orbit because it lacks whole 4 tons of payload capacity.

    Trampoline Man decided to push for Angara at the expense of every other space project they have because he sees it as his chance to get the upper hand in that "feud" he thinks he has with Elon Musk (which is funny since Musk is probably not aware of the fact that Trampoline Man even exists)


    Here is how things will go down, same pattern as always:

    -Angara is declared Russia's new "super-heavy" rocket (ROFL)

    -Designers of Federation are ordered (again) to trim down 4 tons off the spacecraft (impossible to do without turning it into flying casket)

    -Federation is declared incapable of carrying out Russia's "ambitious" space goals

    -Massive redesign of Federation is ordered

    -In the meantime new design for manned spacecraft is ordered, one that will have "no foreign analogues"​ lol1

    -Federation is quietly cancelled ("new" spacecraft as well soon afterwards)

    -"Upgraded" old Soyuz capsule is declared Russia's new gen spacecraft (maybe it will get new paintjob but most likely they will just add extra letter to the name and call it a day)



    Federation will soon be joining long line of paper fanart projects like Baikal, Rus-M and Clipper

    RIP thumbsup

    You forgot the part where at each redesign or new project, more of the funds are surreptitiously siphoned off to managers of the project and officials.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:58 pm

    flamming_python wrote:You forgot the part where at each redesign or new project, more of the funds are surreptitiously siphoned off to managers of the project and officials.

    Yeah, thanks for another mindless generalisation without a single scrap of proof... cuz that's what we really need in this place. Mad
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:30 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:You forgot the part where at each redesign or new project, more of the funds are surreptitiously siphoned off to managers of the project and officials.

    Yeah, thanks for another mindless generalisation without a single scrap of proof... cuz that's what we really need in this place.  Mad

    Can't you see that these idiots are wasting taxpayer money and missing/shifting project timelines?
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:52 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:You forgot the part where at each redesign or new project, more of the funds are surreptitiously siphoned off to managers of the project and officials.

    Yeah, thanks for another mindless generalisation without a single scrap of proof... cuz that's what we really need in this place.  Mad

    Can't you see that these idiots are wasting taxpayer money and missing/shifting project timelines?

    No, I don't.  I just hear a lot of fuktards complaining that progress isn't to their liking and indulging in hysteria that the space program is "failing".  In reality, Russia currently fields everything it currently needs to support its various space needs, and while the new projects are needed, they are not urgent.  Timelines will be stretched out under budget and technical and development pressures, but so what? They'll still have manned access to space, still be able to launch any payloads they prepare.  

    wasting taxpayer money - thats what ALL governments do....    missing/shifting project timelines?  Every project has delays...

    The reality is that Russian plans in space dwarf those of the EU nations, yet Russia GDP is a tiny fraction of the nominal EU figure. New manned spacecraft with lunar capabilities?  Bringing Angara serial production on line, while starting a new man-rated medium LV and SHLV? Building a new spaceport? Building new modules for ISS and planning a follow on station?  The EU is not doing any of those things.  Sure, not everything s going to plan, but the scale of what Russia is attempting is tremendous, so if there are hiccups that is to be expected.  

    So yeah, I can't see it, cuz its all a steaming pile of biased Russophobia by Russias enemies who seem to work 24/7 spreading their spiteful mendacious BS.... and from where I sit, you're one of them....
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:51 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:hysteria that the space program is "failing".  In reality, Russia currently fields everything it currently needs to support its various space needs

    Sure, Russia's needs as currently outlined by continuous shift of timelines and project cancellations are mediocre jobs programs running on ever so diminishing Soviet fumes. If you endorse that, fine.

    Good job @Russian politicians, you've matched Obama in space vision.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:14 pm

    So what was canceled and pushed back then?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:31 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:So what was canceled and pushed back then?

    Federation has been delayed and will probably​ be cancelled because they ordered it to be switched from Soyuz-5 to Angara. Angara can't deliver spacecraft of that size into orbit.

    Soyuz-5 has been delayed. It will be cancelled once financial numbers come in because all money is now being redirected back into Angara since that's the project that Trampoline Man convinced himself will give him the upper hand in his perceived feud with Musk.

    Super-heavy rocket will not be happening without Soyuz-5. Soyuz-5 is not happening. Hence no super-heavy rocket.

    Every single scientific probe mission is delayed or cancelled. Lunar and Venus missions are on their 10th delay and counting.

    Spekt space telescope is decade behind schedule. It was recently delayed again.

    Nauka ISS module spent 20 years in storage, once they finally tested it they realized that it started to fall apart due to age so they practically had to rebuild it. It was delayed again last year.

    Roskosmos is blocking sale of manufacturing rights to S7 for old engines it's not using, probably because someone stands to profit from stunting any private development in aerospace segment.

    And best of all even Trampoline Man's vanity project is late, latest news is that they will sign papers for construction of Angara launchpad in Vostochniy in August. Construction was due to start way back in January. God knows when it will actually start.

    That's just off the top of my head, if I sat down and checked I could write a whole essay on this.

    In short: during past 30 years Russia has accomplished NOTHING in space segment. And at this rate they will not accomplish anything in another 30 years.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:31 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:So what was canceled and pushed back then?

    Everything will feel the heat.

    According to Sputnik, a Russian government-controlled news agency, the Roscosmos state corporation will likely to suffer funding shortages amounting to 150 billion rubles (more than $2 billion) in the next three years, from 2019 to 2021.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/06/russia-may-lack-the-funds-to-compete-with-spacexs-falcon-9-rocket/
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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:35 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:So what was canceled and pushed back then?

    Federation has been delayed and will probably​ be cancelled because they ordered it to be switched from Soyuz-5 to Angara. Angara can't deliver spacecraft of that size into orbit.

    Soyuz-5 has been delayed. It will be cancelled once financial numbers come in because all money is now being redirected back into Angara since that's the project that Trampoline Man convinced himself will give him the upper hand in his perceived feud with Musk.

    Super-heavy rocket will not be happening without Soyuz-5. Soyuz-5 is not happening. Hence no super-heavy rocket.

    Every single scientific probe mission is delayed or cancelled. Lunar and Venus missions are on their 10th delay and counting.

    Spekt space telescope is decade behind schedule. It was recently delayed again.

    Nauka ISS module spent 20 years in storage, once they finally tested it they realized that it started to fall apart due to age so they practically had to rebuild it. It was delayed again last year.

    Roskosmos is blocking sale of manufacturing rights to S7 for old engines it's not using, probably because someone stands to profit from stunting any private development in aerospace segment.

    And best of all even Trampoline Man's vanity project is late, latest news is that they will sign papers for construction of Angara launchpad in Vostochniy in August. Construction was due to start way back in January. God knows when it will actually start.

    That's just off the top of my head, if I sat down and checked I could write a whole essay on this.

    In short: during past 30 years Russia has accomplished NOTHING in space segment. And at this rate they will not accomplish anything in another 30 years.

    Bingo study

    also this:

    If fully funded, the Soyuz-5 could be ready for service by 2022, but budget cuts will preclude that, Moiseev said. Any delays to the project will probably prove fatal, as SpaceX's Falcon 9 rocket is likely to see diminished costs over time as the company continues to improve the booster's reusability. In other words, even if the Soyuz-5 rocket is competitive on paper with the Falcon 9 now, it is unlikely to be so four years from now.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/06/russia-may-lack-the-funds-to-compete-with-spacexs-falcon-9-rocket/

    Budget cuts are already a reality.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:52 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:.....
    Bingo study

    also this:

    If fully funded, the Soyuz-5 could be ready for service by 2022, but budget cuts will preclude that, Moiseev said. Any delays to the project will probably prove fatal, as SpaceX's Falcon 9 rocket is likely to see diminished costs over time as the company continues to improve the booster's reusability. In other words, even if the Soyuz-5 rocket is competitive on paper with the Falcon 9 now, it is unlikely to be so four years from now.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/06/russia-may-lack-the-funds-to-compete-with-spacexs-falcon-9-rocket/

    Budget cuts are already a reality.


    Saddest part is that competitiveness with Falcon-9 is irelevant because Russia will not be using Falcon-9

    Europe, China, Japan, India, S. Korea none of them are wasting time with reusable platforms or are paying any attention to Musk's bottom line or promo materials. They simply are focusing on their own projects and are delivering results consistently. None of them will be using foreign rockets for anything important.

    All of them will use their own platforms and they couldn't give two shits about reusability. They want reliability. And they are all succeeding.

    Russians are only ones stupid enough to swallow Musk's PR bullshit and it's fucking up their entire space industry on fundamental level.

    Fanboys here love to complain about some "fifth column" and "saboteurs" when in reality they aren't needed. All it takes is one tweet from Elon Musk about his reusable government subsided rocket and entire Russian space segment screeches to a halt with monthly delays and plan changes.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:19 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Federation has been delayed and will probably​ be cancelled because they ordered it to be switched from Soyuz-5 to Angara. Angara can't deliver spacecraft of that size into orbit.

    BS.  Haven't heard anymore about this alleged switch back to Angara, so I expect its the usual fog and media incompetence. Delays to Fed are due to budget and technical, but a new manned ferry is still a priority.  BTW Angara can loft 24-25T in its initial prototype version.  Saying it can't be man-rated or launch Federation is pure fuktardishness.  It can't get Fed to the moon, but FFS neither can any current US rocket. In any case, that will be Soyuz-5's job.

    PapaDragon wrote:Soyuz-5 has been delayed. It will be cancelled once financial numbers come in because all money is now being redirected back into Angara since that's the project that Trampoline Man convinced himself will give him the upper hand in his perceived feud with Musk.

    You're outta your fucking gourd, making up shite like a teenage girl on FB.  Soyuz-5 delayed? Latest is that test flights are expected in 2022, which i'll believe when it happens, but your eternal Chicken Little act is wearing thin.  It will be cancelled?  Man, you are simply either fucked in the head or you're maliciously messing with us...

    PapaDragon wrote:Super-heavy rocket will not be happening without Soyuz-5. Soyuz-5 is not happening. Hence no super-heavy rocket.
    You really excel at these kind of logical contortions.  Its almost like rmf had not left the forum...

    PapaDragon wrote:Every single scientific probe mission is delayed or cancelled. Lunar and Venus missions are on their 10th delay and counting.
    Yes, disappointing, but its mostly about financing, and space is a low priority atm.  Where money is not an issue (like Exo-Mars 1 and upcoming lander mission, paid for by ESA) Russian performance has been excellent.  Its clearly not a capability issue but funding.

    PapaDragon wrote:Spekt space telescope is decade behind schedule. It was recently delayed again.

    Which one? Spectr-RG is due for launch in Mar 2019. A decade behind? Both sides have encountered delays, with the eRosita scope not delivered by the Germans until Jan 2017.

    PapaDragon wrote:Nauka ISS module spent 20 years in storage, once they finally tested it they realized that it started to fall apart due to age so they practically had to rebuild it. It was delayed again last year.

    Falling apart...  grrr..  its blatant fucking shit like this that makes my blood boil.  The fault is due to some Khrunichev apes who didn't follow procedure and left metallic cuttings in the hydraulics.  Tanks needed to be cut open and cleaned, but they are no longer produced, so new procedures had to be developed to repair and re-certify. Yes its a fuck up, and Knrunichev deserve to reamed a new one, but your speel is pure BS.

    PapaDragon wrote:Roskosmos is blocking sale of manufacturing rights to S7 for old engines it's not using, probably because someone stands to profit from stunting any private development in aerospace segment.

    Given that none of us are privy to the negotiations, its probably stalled on issues such as IP or tech-transfer?  S7 probably want to own the design, while Roskosmos refuse to allow it. Again, we just don't know.

    PapaDragon wrote:And best of all even Trampoline Man's vanity project is late, latest news is that they will sign papers for construction of Angara launchpad in Vostochniy in August. Construction was due to start way back in January. God knows when it will actually start.

    Agree that this is taking too long, but calling Angara a vanity project???  Are you nuts?  It's hardly a golden palace in Turkmenistan...

    PapaDragon wrote:That's just off the top of my head, if I sat down and checked I could write a whole essay on this.

    I've no doubt you could, but it would be a great steaming pile just like this smear job
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:32 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Russians are only ones stupid enough to swallow Musk's PR bullshit and it's fucking up their entire space industry on fundamental level.

    Not sure what reuseability programs you think the Russians are pursuing or how it is impacting the program. A small scale tech demonstrator for Baikal on a light launcher? Sounds sensible to me. Methalox versions of Soyuz-5 for SHLV? Well LNG is cheaper than high-spec kero and performs better, so again, that makes sense.

    How sad that reality won't conform to your propaganda...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:35 am


    One thing.

    Just one thing.

    All they need to do in order to prove me wrong is to accomplish one thing that was not already up and running back when JFK was still humping half of Hollywood.

    Just one thing that does not have "Made in USSR" stenciled on it.

    That's all I ask.
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    kvs

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:45 am

    So we have all this bitching and moaning about Russian space failure, but what the f*ck are the precious Yankees doing?
    Forget about the EU, it is basically a zero.

    Where is their man rated rocket? The have had years to develop one but are still riding on Russian rockets into space.
    That would be an actual example of a fail.

    The troll clown who calls Rogozin the "trampoline" man whines like a butthurt Yankee. Rogozin rightly assessed the US
    ability to get to the ISS on their own as akin to using a trampoline. Only those for which this hits too close to home are
    going to denigrate Rogozin for the statement.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:19 am

    So far Papa, all of that is speculation. If it was exactly the truth, then there would be official statements of such. So far, there was a comment and we can guess were it initially came from. Then afterwards, we hear of Federation and Soyuz-5 day after.

    The rest is your crystal ball theory. None of that holds to what I am asking - evidence of such actions. Till then, speculation does not count.

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    Re: New-Generation 'Federation' Spacecraft

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      Current date/time is Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:25 pm