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    VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:19 pm

    The Mig-35 could probably go into production in 2014 and they will probably buy about 50 or 70 in total, and that would be good for Mig as they would get production experience, and be able to test new stuff.

    I really don't think less than 100 Mig-35s will be able to replace the thousands of single engined fighter bombers that they have lost.

    I agree that for now making a 5th gen light fighter doesn't make sense and the question should be looked at again in about 2016 or so with a view to the new aircraft entering service in 2022-2025. At that time they will have PAK FA in service in numbers and most of their legasy aircraft (Mig-29s, Su-27s, Mig-31s) that haven't been upgraded will need to be scrapped and replaced.

    The Su-35, Mig-35, and Su-34 will be formidable support aircraft for the PAK FA, but I also think that by the 2020s that NATO will have more stealth fighters (F-35s) than the number of PAK FAs that Russia could afford could deal with.

    I think the Su-35 will be a very capable opponent for the F-35, and in many areas will be superior, but by 2020 I would hope that Russian aircraft technology will have reached a level where it was ready to make a genuine light 5th gen fighter that is affordable and able to foot it with the best.

    It will be a practical aircraft that while perhaps not cheap to buy will be cheap to operate and effective for all those bomb truck roles you would never risk a PAK FA for.

    A small light 5th gen fighter could be used as a light recon aircraft, precision attack, fighter, jammer... the number of roles it will be able to perform will be broad.

    In many ways it will be a stealthy F-16... in the USAF when F-15C fighters are available the F-16 is a bomb truck. For European AFs that have F-16s as their only fighter it is fighter and bomb truck and everything else.

    At this point, ordering Su-35 would probably be cheaper.

    Not in the long term.

    In most of western Russia most Su-27s operate with 3/4ths empty fuel tanks, which is a bit like using an An-124 to deliver 6 tons of post. For many units a Mig-29 sized aircraft is a more efficient choice, and having an alternative to a Sukhoi fighter is good for competition.

    An official... I think it was Rogozin said recently that competition for the PAK FA now would make Sukhoi work harder and result in a better product. Obviously there is no domestic competition for PAK FA now and there wont be... the Mig light 5th gen fighter will compliment rather than compete.

    It would also make rather more sense using Mig-35s in support of Army units through frontal aviation than to use Su-35s.

    The Mig-35 would be more suited to frontal aviation units than the Su-35, the latter would be more useful for air superiority missions over much larger areas.

    ...BTW it would be cheaper to only buy Mi-28s, but it would not be better.
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    TR1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:39 pm

    Setting up MiG-35 production, modernizing the production line, fixing all the problems with system supplier quantity and quality, would probably cost as much as any deficit in Su-35 vs MIG-35 exploitation costs. Add to that training for yet another type, spares for another type, etc, I still think more Su-35 is easier at this point.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:47 pm

    Easier is not better.

    Sukhoi will be making hundreds of Su-35s and will be tooling up for PAK FAs shortly, so it is going to be pretty busy.

    Mig are making Mig-29Ks, which are quite sophisticated aircraft but not Mig-35s.

    Keep in mind if the Mig-35 is ordered it could potentially beat the PAK FA into service and be the first Russian fighter with an operational AESA radar.

    We are not just talking about Mig... we are talking about the makers of radars for Mig, the makers of engines for Mig aircraft etc etc.

    It will not be a serious burden to have Mig-35s and Su-35s and PAK FAs and Mig-31s all in service at once as each has a niche where they are better than the other options, and there is value in getting the production factories for Mig up to date... in 2020-2025 they will need to have some sort of light fighter... whether it is manned or unmanned we can't tell from this time frame, but from what I have read the Mig 5th gen light fighter is probably the best option.
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    George1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    In most of western Russia most Su-27s operate with 3/4ths empty fuel tanks, which is a bit like using an An-124 to deliver 6 tons of post. For many units a Mig-29 sized aircraft is a more efficient choice, and having an alternative to a Sukhoi fighter is good for competition.


    GarryB wrote:
    It would also make rather more sense using Mig-35s in support of Army units through frontal aviation than to use Su-35s.

    The Mig-35 would be more suited to frontal aviation units than the Su-35, the latter would be more useful for air superiority missions over much larger areas.

    Where the army units are going to attack in a future conflict ? Caucasus and West Europe. MiG-35 will have to face Typhoons and F-16. I think can do air-defense and attack roles quite successful.

    Even in the East can deal with China's J-10 with no problem.
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    TR1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:09 am

    GarryB wrote:Easier is not better.

    Sukhoi will be making hundreds of Su-35s and will be tooling up for PAK FAs shortly, so it is going to be pretty busy.

    Mig are making Mig-29Ks, which are quite sophisticated aircraft but not Mig-35s.

    Keep in mind if the Mig-35 is ordered it could potentially beat the PAK FA into service and be the first Russian fighter with an operational AESA radar.

    We are not just talking about Mig... we are talking about the makers of radars for Mig, the makers of engines for Mig aircraft etc etc.

    It will not be a serious burden to have Mig-35s and Su-35s and PAK FAs and Mig-31s all in service at once as each has a niche where they are better than the other options, and there is value in getting the production factories for Mig up to date... in 2020-2025 they will need to have some sort of light fighter... whether it is manned or unmanned we can't tell from this time frame, but from what I have read the Mig 5th gen light fighter is probably the best option.

    It is better when easier is also cheaper. RuAF has a limited budget, and much to do.

    The only thing IMO the MiG-35 has going for it is 1.) job support 2.) keeping a factory from going down the drain 3.) takes off load from knaapo.
    I don't think it would be cheaper to order MiG-35, but they would be able to start production (hopefully) before the first 48 Su-35s are delivered. I wouldn't actually mind seeing MiG-35 ordered as stop gap to fill up numbers, but I would rather just see more Su-35C. Like I said, I highly suspect any operational advantage would be thrown away by the modernization/ramp up needed to have timely/quality mass production. I don't think it would be difficult to ramp up yearly Su-35 production to ~25 post 2015, if the money and desire for more fighters pre-PAKFA is there.
    Hundreds of Su-35s, Garry are you sure that's not wishful thinking? We will be lucky if RuAF orders more than 100 before 2020. There is of course potential for exports, but it is unlikely to be huge.


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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:04 am

    It is better when easier is also cheaper. RuAF has a limited budget, and much to do.

    Perfectly true, but what makes you think the Mig-35 will cost more than an Su-35?

    I would suggest that unless they only make a dozen or so that the Mig-35 will work out cheaper than the Su-35, and I am pretty sure operational costs will be lower for the smaller aircraft.

    The Mig-35 will also have the advantage of an AESA radar.

    Where the army units are going to attack in a future conflict ? Caucasus and West Europe. MiG-35 will have to face Typhoons and F-16. I think can do air-defense and attack roles quite successful.

    Frontal Aviation operates over the front line... it doesn't matter whether it is attack or defence.

    It wont just operate Mig-35s, it will operate a range of aircraft to control the airspace over the battlefield.

    Hundreds of Su-35s, Garry are you sure that's not wishful thinking?

    How many Flanker export customers are there? Obviously India will want to upgrade via the PAK FA, but other Flanker operators will want Su-35s by 2018... by 2022 or so Russia will likely be ready to export slightly downgraded Su-35s to China... if they order a large enough batch.

    There is value in giving work to Mig, there is value in reducing pressure on Sukhoi production capacity, there is value in retaining competition in fighter companies.

    I think the Mig-35 is the most vastly underrated fighter today... the T-90AM is everything a T-72 could be and I think the Mig-35 is everything the Mig-29 could be.

    I think Sukhois success post cold war has been largely political and that Mig look from the outside to have done the work for little reward.

    The Su-33 is a good example... it is a slightly strengthened Su-27 with folding bits and a tailhook. The Mig-29K was almost a complete redesign of the Mig-29 that was fully multirole from the outset and able to use the latest weapons.

    Eventually Sukhoi came up with the Su-33KUB, but the fact that Mig got the contract for Indian Mig-29Ks meant they were the cheapest option for the Russian Navy too.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:54 pm

    "How many Flanker export customers are there? Obviously India will want to upgrade via the PAK FA, but other Flanker operators will want Su-35s by 2018... by 2022 or so Russia will likely be ready to export slightly downgraded Su-35s to China... if they order a large enough batch."

    Well that is just the issue, because of thr Su-30 success, I don't see Su-35 doing as well. The air forces that operate the more advanced variants, like India and Malaysia, have all signaled intent to upgrade their planes. Getting Su-35 isn't worth it/doesn't make sense for then. We can probably count Algeria in this sense as well. The existing customers that I could see going for Su-35 are one who operate less advanced Su-30s, like Venezuela, or Vietnam. But in those cases they can't afford huge air forces in general, and Su-35 ain't cheap, so they may just got for more upgraded Su-30s.
    China doesn't want the Su-35 at this point (though no doubt they would love to get their hands on several), let alone a downgraded one later this decade.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:42 pm

    Russia to Rebuild Military Airfields near NATO Borders

    RIA Novosti

    18:36 22/02/2012 KALININGRAD, February 22 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Defense Ministry will modernize two airfields in its Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad, Commander of the Baltic Fleet Vice Adm. Viktor Chirkov said on Wednesday.

    “We are planning to increase the length of the runway to 3,500 meters at the airfield in Chkalovsk so that it would be able to receive any kind of aircraft, including Boeings and Airbuses,” Chirkov said.

    The reconstruction will take about two years.

    The Defense Ministry is also planning to rebuild an abandoned Soviet-era airfield for hydroplanes on the Baltic Spit.

    The admiral said the Baltic Fleet will have at least four amphibious aircraft for reconnaissance and search-and-rescue missions by March 2013.

    The importance of the Kaliningrad exclave, surrounded by NATO members Lithuania and Poland, to Russia’s national security has grown considerably in the past few years as Moscow searches for ways to counter the European missile shield.

    Russia has recently activated a long-range radar in the region and is planning to deploy S-400 Triumf air defense systems and Iskander (SS-26 Stone) tactical missile systems there in the near future.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2012/russia-120222-rianovosti03.htm

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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:12 am

    That is good news, especially regarding the hydroplanes.

    Hopefully they will order a dozen of so and deploy some to the Caspian and Black Sea Fleets too.
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    RuAF fighters role

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:36 am

    Well I am forever the optimist...

    I think as the F-35 gets more expensive and the schedule gets pushed back, and the performance limitations of export models becomes clearer that several Air Forces will look to save a bit of money.

    I would think that for countries buying Su-30s, who are suddenly faced with F-35s in their regions might suddenly decide that an Su-35 that is optimised to hunt stealth aircraft might be a much cheaper option than going full stealth themselves (ie PAK FA).

    I am sure that the US would love to have production facilities of the F-15 still open and able to upgrade it to current and near future levels of technology.

    In fact I would think many in the USAF are getting a bit nervious about buying 3,000 odd F-35s to pretty much replace everything except their F-22s and that new build cheaper 4+ generation aircraft that are proven to be able to do the job would let them sleep better at night.

    If there is only a market for 48 for the Russian AF and perhaps a dozen more for export then there is little point in even bothering to make them.

    Personally I think that they will likely end up with a force that looks something like this:

    200 PAK FA
    96 Su-35s
    96 Su-30s
    48 Mig-29s (C and SMT)
    48 Mig-35s
    120 Mig-31s


    By 2022 they will have a light 5th gen fighter that will replace the Flankers and the Fulcrums and free up some Pak Fas to assist with the aerospace defence role.

    In his recent speeches Putin mentioned the priorities for defence and he said strategic missiles, aerospace defence as number one and number two...

    Based on that I think there might be a version of the PAK FA that is custom designed for the long range interception role, or their might be a dedicated design.

    The fact that they are working on a new CAS design for 2020 suggests that for specific roles they see a value in a customised design.

    I think the interception role requires a separate design from a 5th gen stealth fighter.

    My opinion of course.

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    Interview with Air Chief Zelin

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:35 pm

    Nice Long Interview with Russian Airforce Chief Zelin

    http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2012/03/16/231415.html

    Now I am waiting for some one to translate the key features of interview in english accurately


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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:36 pm

    So 140 Su-34 and 100 Su-35 confirmed , Su-30SM will be used to train Su-35 pilots.

    60 PAK-FA by 2020

    2 squadron of Su-24 in service. 100 Mig-31BM in service upgraded , RuAF has 320 Mig-31.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:37 pm

    Anything about the Mig-35 he asked hopefully... Smile
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:40 pm

    The General Staff has put us to task for those troops who are in a battle of the Armed Forces need to have planes to transport heavy brigades, medium and light. Easy to instantly anywhere in the country or abroad, in connection with our international obligations to solve their problems. In what way? Only by using military transport aircraft.

    This is interesting...

    With Armata in the 50 ton class the new An-124s should be able to carry 3 vehicles each, so it will take quite a few to carry the whole Heavy Brigade.

    With a light brigade of course they might all fit into one or two An-124s...
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  George1 on Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:50 am

    Su-30SM only for training? such a multirole fighter?
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:55 am

    George1 wrote:Su-30SM only for training? such a multirole fighter?
    Not just training of course.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:18 am

    It will likely be used as an operational trainer like the Su-27UB was.

    The Su-27UB had a fully functioning radar and full operational systems and could be used as a trainer and as a fighter/multirole aircraft because the guy in the back seat to do stuff and free up the pilot to enable more complicated tasks be performed.

    The Su-27UB was so useful they sold it as the Su-30.

    In contrast the Mig-29UB two seat trainer only had a basic radar fitted and could not use radar guided weapons and was pretty much just an advanced trainer, though it still had its IRST and could use a wide range of IR guided AAMs and TV and IR guided air to ground missiles and bombs.

    The new Mig-35 is based around the two seat MIg-29M2 which has a standard front section and canopy for either single seat or two seat layout with full radar and other systems.

    They are handy for training and other uses.

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:16 pm

    Well Zelin confirms An-140 is the future light tactical transport aircraft for RuAF.

    An-70 and An-124-100 plus new An-124-300 has the go ahead.

    Transport fleet will include 300 aircraft of all types.


    For any one that reads Russian what does he say about Mig-31 only 100 aircraft of 250 they have now will be upgraded and kept ? Or will they keep 250 but upgrade only 100 to BM standard ?


    I hope they build single engine 5th gen fighter.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:20 am

    The An-140 will largely replace smaller aircraft in Russian service like the An-26 and An-32 and probably An-72.

    They are for short range light payload jobs.

    The MTA will replace the An-12 in the longer range heavier payload role...

    With a payload of 20 tons the MTA should be able to carry any vehicle in a light Brigade, but will be just too light to carry any vehicle in a medium brigade (which will likely be in the 25-30 ton weight range. The heavy brigade will be up to 60 tons so the Il-476 should be able to carry these and the An-124 could carry up to 3 vehicles of the heavy, 5 vehicles of the medium and perhaps 12-14 light brigade vehicles.

    It looks like the Mig-31 will be kept in service till at least 2020 and 100 will be upgraded, presumably with the remainder retired and used for parts... though the guts will be different.

    Shame the interviewer didn't ask about the Mig-29 and Mig-35... even if the Mig-35 was too expensive then a couple of Mig-29M2s along with the orders for the Navy Mig-29K2s would be useful, as well as a few more SMT upgrades of late model Mig-29s.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:05 am

    I hope they build single engine 5th gen fighter.

    Well I personally hope that they adopt the PAK FA to handle the Flanker role, the Su-34 can take the heavy strike and jammer role, they need a large heavy interceptor to replace the Mig-31 when it finally pops its clogs... as a country the size of Russia needs a dedicated interceptor fighter, and a lighter cheaper numbers stealth fighter makes sense too in my opinion. It doesn't need long range or high speed, though the ability to carry AAMs externally even if conformally would be useful when extreme stealth is not so important (ie chasing down cruise missiles).

    Round that off with a new attack helo and a new CAS aircraft and a new strategic bomber and in terms of combat aircraft they should be right.... Smile

    There of course can be a lot of sharing of technology and equipment and systems so each program should not be started from scratch.

    Eventually the role of short range light strike can be handled by the new CAS fighter, and the long range heavy strike can be more than tackled by the PAK DA, so the Su-34 will be useful but wont need to operate forever.

    The Pak DA could also be used as the basis for a heavy long range interceptor... personally I would like to see it in the form of a flying wing with a tail structure to allow supersonic flight, with the primary goal of achieving very high speed flight in supercruise mode. Something like mach 1.8 or so would be ideal and would be useful for a civilian airliner version (non stealthy of course) and a less stealthy interceptor model.

    The flying wing design would offer the unique opportunity to use the entire leading edge of the wing as a radar antenna array and of course its belly could be covered in long range AAMs of a wide range of types as for an interceptor stealth is not strictly critical so the entire internal volume could be used for fuel... this could allow an enormous flight range with missions measured in days instead of hours...
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    Russian Military to Use Civilian Planes

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:09 pm

    Russian Military to Use Civilian Planes

    RIA Novosti

    16:31 02/04/2012 MOSCOW, April 2 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's military-transport aviation will use civilian An-124 Ruslan Condor heavy-lift transport aircraft owned by large carriers, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Monday.

    “Orders will be placed for dozens of aircraft - 60-70 Ruslans,” he said.

    It was not immediately clear whether the military will pay for the use of cargo aircraft or simply commandeer them in the interest of “national defense.”

    “If necessary, these machines can also work for the benefit of Russia’s security,” Rogozin said without elaborating.

    In the future at least 10 Ruslans will be built for the Armed Forces by 2020, Rogozin said.

    The An-124, developed by the Antonov Design Bureau in 1982, has a maximum payload of 150 metric tons with a flight range of around 3,000 kilometers (1,864 miles).

    The cargo jet is the world's third largest after the An-225 and the Airbus A380.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2012/russia-120402-rianovosti03.htm
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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:33 am

    The cargo jet is the world's third largest after the An-225 and the Airbus A380.

    Well... the 225 is a one off aircraft that is not currently operational... so if you are going to count it you might as well also count the Huges Spruce Goose.

    The new model An-124 has greater payload capacity than the A380 and in the context of military transport the An-124 is far superior because it has front and rear ramp entry/exit so it can carry military vehicles in a roll on roll off capacity.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  Kysusha on Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:30 am

    No GaryB, The Spruce Goose had limited range!!!! Not a fair comparison.

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  Firebird on Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:15 pm

    The Antonov is a fantastic piece of engineering. I wonder if they've thought of doing a "stretch" version for cargo.
    And a passenger version to challenge the Airbus A380.

    I always thought Russia would stride ahead faster in conversion to civillian uses. Maybe this will change now Russia is part of the WTO?

    And I think it makes sense to commandeer off civilian airlines in times of need.Means more money for other things.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The cargo jet is the world's third largest after the An-225 and the Airbus A380.

    Well... the 225 is a one off aircraft that is not currently operational... so if you are going to count it you might as well also count the Huges Spruce Goose.


    The one only AN-225 is an operational aircraft. It came at least twice to Armenia over the 2 years bringing oversize items.

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