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    2008 South Ossetia war

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    zg18
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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  zg18 on Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:09 am

    Armenians have been better prepared for the war , not in terms of equipment but in sense of duty and mission at hand.

    Azeri military lost most of the ground during political turmoils in Baku , politicians in Baku behaved almost as enemies of their army , war is known to be continuation of politics with other means and if politicians care more about fighting for power instead of focusing on war at hand , defeat is assured.




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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Regular on Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:59 pm

    I'm not an expert on Armenian or Azerbaijan armies, but Azeri army looks way better funded while Armenians have Russian support.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  TR1 on Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:54 pm

    Regular wrote:I'm not an expert on Armenian or Azerbaijan armies, but Azeri army looks way better funded while Armenians have Russian support.

    Ofc, Azerbaijan has the oil money, while Armenia does not.

    Russia is on decent terms with both of them however, and rightfully so.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:12 am

    TR1 wrote:
    Regular wrote:I'm not an expert on Armenian or Azerbaijan armies, but Azeri army looks way better funded while Armenians have Russian support.

    Ofc, Azerbaijan has the oil money, while Armenia does not.

    Russia is on decent terms with both of them however, and rightfully so.

    Though it should be noted that recent talks between the 3 hasn't had much productivity, lets hope Russia can maintain the peace as a wise and rational mediator.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:02 pm

    To magnum:
    "Though it should be noted that recent talks between the 3 hasn't had much productivity, lets hope Russia can maintain the peace as a wise and rational mediator."

    Those talks will be failing as long as Azeris won't realise, that status of Artsakh is not negotiable.
    For Armenians, this territory is not a matter of prestige, but a matter of survival.








    To Regular:
    "I'm not an expert on Armenian or Azerbaijan armies, but Azeri army looks way better funded while Armenians have Russian support."

    This is far more complex than that.
    Yes, Azerbaijan's military budget is much bigger... on paper. However, much of that money is wasted on nice looking but not very suitable and very expensive military technologies. A huge part is also syphoned-off by corrupt officials (for buying dachas on the caspian coast, real estate abroad, etc.). Remember, the corruption of Azerbaijan is actually comparable to that of Afghanistan. They're only slightly richer due to huge oilfields they're sitting on.

    Secondly, yes, Russian weapons amount to large part of Armenia's inventory, however, not only Russians are supplying Armenians with weapons Smile

    For example, Armenians bought about 30 Su-25s from Mid Europe (Slovakia or Hungary, don't remember exactly) for a very good price Smile

    Armenians also have a nice number of Zastava M93 AM rifles, which are Serbian Smile

    Also, a couple or so years ago, they brought a large shipment of ATGMs and RRs from Moldova. I remember having a good laugh, when I read that Aliev's junta were very upset about this deal  lol1 
    And no wonder why: Those criminals and their supporters (such as this Azeri fellow here) spent so much time and effort babbling how Armenia is totally dependant on Russian arms. And those deals are ridiculing this nonsense very nicely  respekt







    To AttilaA:

    "So what are you saying, that we should believe Armenian propaganda?"

    Oh, Armenian propaganda, you say?
    Well, let's watch Azeri "objective information" on this matter, shall we?  Smile 
    http://en.apa.az/xeber_azerbaijani_defense_ministry_says_armeni_206265.html

    So, brave Azeris captured an Armenian special forces guide and saboteur. And he just coincidentally happens to be a 77 year old Armenian villager with appearant mental health problems:   Rolling Eyes  
    http://news.am/eng/news/191429.html

    Unless this old man is still better than any Azeri SF operator, how on Earth one could even think, that he could even be a fighting soldier, much less a SF member????

    So, sorry pal, but I'd much rather read Armenian propaganda, than this retarded crap of your country. Because the former, even if exaggerated, is at least believable.





    "Sure, go on, but don't except others to do so."

    Oh, really? That's too bad, I was just about to post another piece of evidence. Well, I'll post anyway, in case at least one of 800 plus members and even more guests would be interested:
    http://www.armradio.am/en/2014/01/23/armenia-ready-to-provide-the-samples-of-armament-found-at-the-site-of-subversive-attack-to-mg-co-chairs/

    It appears, that Armenian side is ready to provide all items ( that it planted itself in their totally faked "prevention of border infiltration" spectacle to discredit peace loving Azeris) to the OSCE organisation Smile


    Just let me ask. If this is "just a regular border shooting", as you say, then why Armenians are so confident to send their evidence to international organisation without any fear to be caught red-handed? Or maybe OSCE is now Armenia's propaganda tool, or something?  Smile







    "Just few days ago your defence ministry were saying that CSTO are supposedly obliged to assist Armenia in event of a war against Azerbaijan."

    And how this relates to your "Oh, without CSTO bailout Armenia is DOOMED"?




    "1918-1920 war included several regions, I'm not aware of any Armenian victory during the war, are you now inventing BS out of your a**?"

    Well, I dunno. Maybe because both countries just got their independence, engaged forces were very small, and most fighting were done on skirmish level. However, since Armenian forces managed to hold out for like two years, until your new buddy, Soviet union, came to win the war for you, I count this as Armenian victory. Especialy since many Armenian towns and villages were saved from Azeri "liberators" that way.
    Others weren't so fortunate:  
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku_pogrom  cry 
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shusha_massacre  cry






    "You reached a new level of absurdity."
    Is the fact of Earth being round absurd to you too?  Rolling Eyes

    AttilaA
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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  AttilaA on Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:29 pm

    Can you explain, what exactly is not "suitable" in regards to Azerbaijan's arms procurement? The question is, do you have any idea about it?

    "For example, Armenians bought about 30 Su-25s from Mid Europe"

    You mean 10? Good for you.

    "Armenians also have a nice number of Zastava M93 AM rifles"

    Are we talking about small arms now? Good for you.

    "Also, a couple or so years ago, they brought a large shipment of ATGMs and RRs from Moldova."

    Very ironic that you talk about corruption on Azerbaijan's side, and at the same time mention this, which sounds nothing else than what it is, corruption. Maybe you can tell me if you see whats wrong with buying worn-out junk from MOLDOVA.  Very Happy 

    More senseless trolling...Move on.


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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:18 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Regular wrote:Well I know French had glorious days when they triumphed culturally and military, I rather picked up British custom to undermine them. What I meant to say that even Russian poets have written about Georgians fleeing the battles hundreds years ago. They don't have clan society and are less hot-headed than their Caucasian brothers and along with Armenians are well integrated in Russian cultural life as showmen. Russian ambassador in my country is Georgian too.

    You're wrong, brother  Smile 
    Azeris are French of Caucasus.

    If you want you can read about one of the latest border incidents.
    There, at least two Azeri SF units got their a** handed to them by Armenian conscripts  Smile



    To TR1:
    "The French have an epic military history."

    Are you sure about that?  Smile 
    Coz there were only two instances, when French were winning wars:
    In one case they were led by an Italian, and in another- by a woman suffering from hallucinations  Smile

    But yeah, those are pure coincidences, right?  Wink
    Does the 30 years war, WW1, the 7 years war ring , and war of Italian reunification ring a bell to you?

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:20 pm

    zg18 wrote:
    Regular wrote:They are French of Caucasus Wink

    You should not base French military history solely on 1871 and 1940 and mistakes of their generals , average French soldier was no inferior to German counterpart. Remnants of French 1st army kept entire Blitzkrieg for four days at Lille enabling Dunkirk evacuation that pretty much kept British in the war , it was a pure a sacrifice on their part since they knew battle was lost and is example of selfless courage.

    That four days may seem meaningless but it crushed Hitler`s hopes for peace treaty with Britain and in that sense sealed the fate of WW2.
    Can't we all agree that Italians have the shittiest record of winning not only wars, but battles in general? I mean you gotta suck epicly when the same African tribesmen humiliate your modern equipped army... twice!

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:24 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    zg18 wrote:
    Regular wrote:They are French of Caucasus Wink

    You should not base French military history solely on 1871 and 1940 and mistakes of their generals , average French soldier was no inferior to German counterpart. Remnants of French 1st army kept entire Blitzkrieg for four days at Lille enabling Dunkirk evacuation that pretty much kept British in the war , it was a pure a sacrifice on their part since they knew battle was lost and is example of selfless courage.

    That four days may seem meaningless but it crushed Hitler`s hopes for peace treaty with Britain and in that sense sealed the fate of WW2.
    Can't we all agree that Italians  have the shittiest record of winning not only wars, but battles in general? I mean you gotta suck epicly when the same African tribesmen humiliate your modern equipped army... twice!

    African tribesman? You mean the Italian defeats at the hands of Ethiopia? Tribesman is an insult, the Ethiopians successfully fought off colonialism not just from the Italians but from the mighty British Empire with the help of Russian military officers and advisers, respect and camaraderie between two historically Orthodox Christian communities. Alexander Bulatovich was one of the military advisers for Ethiopia, and here is his well-informed opinion on the Ethiopian military that he helped train:

    "Many consider the Abyssinian army to be undisciplined. They think that it is not in condition to withstand a serious fight with a well-organized European army, claiming that the recent war with Italy doesn't prove anything. I will not begin to guess the future, and will say only this. Over the course of four months, I watched this army closely. It is unique in the world. And I can bear witness to the fact that it is not quite so chaotic as it seems at first glance, and that on the contrary, it is profoundly disciplined, though in its own unique way. For every Abyssinian, war is the most usual business, and military skills and rules of army life in the field enter in the flesh and blood of each of them, just as do the main principles of tactics. On the march, each soldier knows how to arrange necessary comforts for himself and to spare his strength; but on the other hand, when necessary, he shows such endurance and is capable of action in conditions which are difficult even to imagine. You see remarkable expediency in all the actions and skills of this army; and each soldier has an amazingly intelligent attitude toward managing the mission of the battle. Despite such qualities, because of its impetuousness, it is much more difficult to control this army than a well-drilled European army, and I can only marvel at and admire the skill of its leaders and chiefs, of whom there is no shortage."

    -Alexander Bulatovich

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Ethiopia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Bulatovich#Russians_at_Abyssinia

    ...It wasn't just the discipline, endurance was a serious factor that favored the Abyssinians/Ethiopians. Similarly to how the British struggled against the Gurkhas in Nepal, high elevations in Ethiopia produced soldiers with greater endurance than most military's found elsewhere...and it's one of the main reasons why there's no shortage of Olympic caliber marathon/long distance runners.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Airbornewolf on Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:29 pm

    well, since people are mentioning french and Italian.

    anybody remember a firefight in 2008 where 10 french troops where killed and dozens injured during an ambush in Kabul?.


    the french took over that area of operations from the Italians. the french patrol indeed gravely misjudged the situation. but the real reason seems not widely known why.

    while the italians where there patrolling, the italians made a deal with the local taliban commander for obviously lots of money to leave the italian troops alone. it was a deal that stood untill the italians left and never cared to mention it to the french troops taking them over. and of course the deal did not included the french forces that payed for the lying and weaseling of their italian allies with their lives. i propably would have a rage against italy that because of their weasling and incompetence for the dead and injured of my army. but hey,...why not just shove it under the carpet and not talk about it again.

    ...or the fact that italy is the number one producer of these shitty(but sadly effective) plastic mines that are found everywhere including Afghanistan?. they are indeed not produced in italy anymore but use third world country's to do the job trough defense industry company's they own. and gee....they end up in front of western troops feet by the cartloads in (at the time) iraq and Afghanistan.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Viktor on Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:50 pm

    I rememeber the event. When taliban later on (after killing French troops) posed in French uniform and equipment is that right?

    I did not know that Frenchmen have to thank Italians for killings but Im not surprised either as I regularly read that Italians are paying for non-agression pact with taliban.

    I remember reading on several ocasion about Americans going nutc because Italians tend to pay right away for all their kidnaped personel without even trying to negotiate. Funny stuff.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:18 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Does the 30 years war, WW1,  the 7 years war ring , and war of Italian reunification ring a bell  to you?

    Ehm, I dunno, no maybe? Smile

    If the first three relates to France, you're right on 30 years war, looks like it was three instances after all Smile

    In 7 years war, France lost, and WW1 was won by Americans.

    Not sure how Italia relates to this, though  unshaven








    To AttilaA:
    "Can you explain, what exactly is not "suitable" in regards to Azerbaijan's arms procurement? The question is, do you have any idea about it?"

    Maybe  Smile 
    Well, in my opinion, your purchase of T-155 Firtinas is pointless (since you already bought Msta-S with similar stats)

    Also, your purchase of Matadors/Marauders is also pointless, coz they're only used in low-scale warfare. Unless of course, Azerbaijan's civil war is upcoming, then it's OK  Smile 

    I'm not sure if a deal for Green pine radars from Israel has gone through, but this radar is pointless without complete Arrow system.

    Here, a couple of examples. Satisfied, or you want more?  Wink 






    "You mean 10? Good for you."

    Armenian airforce comprises of 30 Su-25, so not sure where you got this "10" from.
    And one interesting thing: it would appear, that this number is larger than Azerbaijan's. Smile So, Armenian airforce (or to be more exact, it's CAS element) is actually more numerous  attack  And I'm not even mentioning better pilot quality  Wink 







    "Are we talking about small arms now? Good for you."

    We're talking about all arms. And those prove, that your claims about complete dependence to CSTO are bo****ks Smile





    "Very ironic that you talk about corruption on Azerbaijan's side, and at the same time mention this, which sounds nothing else than what it is, corruption. Maybe you can tell me if you see whats wrong with buying worn-out junk from MOLDOVA."

    Not sure, if anybody told you, but ATGMs cannot be worn-out, because they can only be used once. Jeez, talk about Azeri education  Rolling Eyes    lol1 




    "More senseless trolling...Move on."

    Well, if you think I'm trolling, then go ahead, report me. Or are you more "loud words, no action" kinda guy?   Wink

    TR1
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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:44 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    zg18 wrote:
    Regular wrote:They are French of Caucasus Wink

    You should not base French military history solely on 1871 and 1940 and mistakes of their generals , average French soldier was no inferior to German counterpart. Remnants of French 1st army kept entire Blitzkrieg for four days at Lille enabling Dunkirk evacuation that pretty much kept British in the war , it was a pure a sacrifice on their part since they knew battle was lost and is example of selfless courage.

    That four days may seem meaningless but it crushed Hitler`s hopes for peace treaty with Britain and in that sense sealed the fate of WW2.
    Can't we all agree that Italians  have the shittiest record of winning not only wars, but battles in general? I mean you gotta suck epicly when the same African tribesmen humiliate your modern equipped army... twice!

    Italians also have plenty of epic military moments.

    Just not too much recently.

    BTW African tribesmen beat the British on several occasions, they just don't like to talk about it.



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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:48 pm

    Airbornewolf wrote:well, since people are mentioning french and Italian.

    anybody remember a firefight in 2008 where 10 french troops where killed and dozens injured during an ambush in Kabul?.


    the french took over that area of operations from the Italians. the french patrol indeed gravely misjudged the situation. but the real reason seems not widely known why.

    while the italians where there patrolling, the italians made a deal with the local taliban commander for obviously lots of money to leave the italian troops alone. it was a deal that stood untill the italians left and never cared to mention it to the french troops taking them over. and of course the deal did not included the french forces that payed for the lying and weaseling of their italian allies with their lives. i propably would have a rage against italy that because of their weasling and incompetence for the dead and injured of my army. but hey,...why not just shove it under the carpet and not talk about it again.

    ...or the fact that italy is the number one producer of these shitty(but sadly effective) plastic mines that are found everywhere including Afghanistan?. they are indeed not produced in italy anymore but use third world country's to do the job trough defense industry company's they own. and gee....they end up in front of western troops feet by the cartloads in (at the time) iraq and Afghanistan.

    Russian army bought off plenty of Chechens, hell even sold them weapons during the wars.

    Pretty common occurrence really.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:14 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    zg18 wrote:
    Regular wrote:They are French of Caucasus Wink

    You should not base French military history solely on 1871 and 1940 and mistakes of their generals , average French soldier was no inferior to German counterpart. Remnants of French 1st army kept entire Blitzkrieg for four days at Lille enabling Dunkirk evacuation that pretty much kept British in the war , it was a pure a sacrifice on their part since they knew battle was lost and is example of selfless courage.

    That four days may seem meaningless but it crushed Hitler`s hopes for peace treaty with Britain and in that sense sealed the fate of WW2.
    Can't we all agree that Italians  have the shittiest record of winning not only wars, but battles in general? I mean you gotta suck epicly when the same African tribesmen humiliate your modern equipped army... twice!

    Italians also have plenty of epic military moments.

    Just not too much recently.

    BTW African tribesmen beat the British on several occasions, they just don't like to talk about it.


    The only instance in which the british colonial troops lost to Africans was in a battle where thousands of chanting club wielding Zulu savages overran a small british garrison in which the tribesmen took very large casualties.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  macedonian on Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:28 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:The only instance in which the british colonial troops lost to Africans was in a battle where thousands of chanting club wielding Zulu savages overran a small british garrison in which the tribesmen took very large casualties.

    I blame you not young lad...For I too was once a young man, deprived of earthly experiences...and wisdom.
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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:47 pm

    The British lost on several occasions actually, and between them and the Zulus, I would call the former the true savages.

    But yes, let's applaud teh kill ratios of the British and their guns.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Airbornewolf on Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:03 pm

    Viktor wrote:I rememeber the event. When taliban later on (after killing French troops) posed in French uniform and equipment is that right?

    I did not know that Frenchmen have to thank Italians for killings but Im not surprised either as I regularly read that Italians are paying for non-agression pact with taliban.

    I remember reading on several ocasion about Americans going nutc because Italians tend to pay right away for all their kidnaped personel without even trying to negotiate. Funny stuff.

    i believe so, the initial patrol got hit hard and the QRF had serious fire to contend with and took casualties themselves, the video footage was intense stuff to see. the french got caught completely off gaurd. normally with operation planning air support is "reserved" as well before going on patrol but there was nothing available in the first hour of the firefight.

    and what the Taliban did at the time with russian troops in Afghanistan they just continue with western troops. last thing you want is being captured by that scum. if you are dying they like to decapitate you alive to show their friends how commited they are to kill infidels. they have a habit of being exceptionally cruel and violent with people they do not like (witch is pretty much everyone). them posing with the uniforms and weapons is nothing compared to what they normally practice out on dead or captured troops....or the population itself.

    lol, among NATO we call the italians "the greasy pretty boys". im not saying the american version of "negotiating" is good, their cowboy-negotiating tends to end often with dead hostages from american disproportionate use of force. "killed by hellfire, fatally wounded by 40MM shrapnell, fatally shot by 7.62MM burst fire from M240". but yes the Italians seem not so keen on showing some guts and play it hard from what ive seen. one guy died this one time and the italian platoon was "mentally unfit for duty" next day. uch..... i do not want to judge an entire millitary but so far i have not heard or seen something that i have respect for.


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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:30 am

    OK guys place your bets:

    Armenian Fedayin vs Abyssinian tribal army vs Italian NATO army - who will win?

    On round 4 the British colonial army and Zulu warriors will enter the fray

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:38 am

    flamming_python wrote:OK guys place your bets:

    Armenian Fedayin vs Abyssinian tribal army vs Italian NATO army - who will win?

    On round 4 the British colonial army and Zulu warriors will enter the fray

    Pff, trick question.

    Kimbo Slice.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:59 am

    I have read a lot of stories about how Soviet commanders made deals with local village elders while in Afghanistan.
    Examples given include... we wont fire on your men and you don't fire on ours, or we will bomb neighbour x that you are currently fighting if you don't bomb our forces. Even during the winter period trading blankets and food for peace was common and accepted practise.

    The agreements were generally with local village elders however, rather than the muj, though I guess some of that happened too.

    You can blame the Italians all you want but it is just as likely they were told about the arrangements and probably didn't want to spend the cash and under estimated their enemy.


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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Regular on Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:26 pm

    Massoud had deals with Soviets as well. But that's understandable

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:42 pm

    Regular wrote:Massoud had deals with Soviets as well. But that's understandable

    Depends on the deal and what was the key point and measurements to fullfill the deals.

    Doesn't sound good anyway.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Regular on Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:27 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:Massoud had deals with Soviets as well. But that's understandable

    Depends on the deal and what was the key point and measurements to fullfill the deals.

    Doesn't sound good anyway.
    For some time he granted a safe passage to Soviet troops. It was for his interest as well because Afghanistan then was big clusterfuck and inner fighting existed. Soviets had no real option, because fighting him was too wasteful.

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    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:38 pm

    because fighting him was too wasteful. wrote:

    Fighting whom?

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