Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    2008 South Ossetia war

    Share

    chenzhao
    Private
    Private

    Posts : 18
    Points : 22
    Join date : 2012-12-20
    Location : Shanghai

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  chenzhao on Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:17 am

    Anyway, In 2008 Shanghai Coopreation Organization (SCO) member state header's summit, China agreed to sign an announcement saying:

    The member states of the SCO express their deep concern in connection with the recent tension around the issue of South Ossetia, and call on the relevant parties to resolve existing problems in a peaceful way through dialogue, to make efforts for reconciliation and facilitation of negotiations.

    The member states of the SCO welcome the signing on 13 August 2008 in Moscow of the six principles of settling the conflict in South Ossetia, and support the active role of Russia in promoting peace and cooperation in the region.

    Which can be explained as a indirect support stance to Russsia.

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5834
    Points : 5886
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:20 pm

    Perhaps - but China's unwillingness to support Russia even when the instigator was clearly Georgia, does not bode well for the SCO's credibility as a defense pact.

    chenzhao
    Private
    Private

    Posts : 18
    Points : 22
    Join date : 2012-12-20
    Location : Shanghai

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  chenzhao on Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:14 am

    Perhaps - but China's unwillingness to support Russia even when the instigator was clearly Georgia, does not bode well for the SCO's credibility as a defense pact.
    Yes. I hope new Chinese leaders who will take their office at spring 2013, could take remedial measures to this problem, for example: recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia .

    Regular
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1982
    Points : 1989
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Regular on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:13 pm

    Sorry for necroposting
    But if You look at new Georgian government You'll see that Saakashvilli days are numbered. US is doing "great" job in protecting their asset. Hope he will get prosecuted, but I bet he will go back to US sooner or later.

    AlfaT8
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1167
    Points : 1180
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:19 pm

    TR1 wrote:Perhaps - but China's unwillingness to support Russia even when the instigator was clearly Georgia, does not bode well for the SCO's credibility as a defense pact.
    On the other hand, i think its good that the SCO isn't such an organization, i mean the last thing we need is to give NATO a reason to exist. Cool

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3201
    Points : 3329
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:27 am

    TR1 wrote:Also, another thing I am very interested in, is the amount of control and communication Saaka had with ground forces in South Ossetia. I can't believe he would order them to attack the Russian peacekeeper base (not to give credit to the man, but no one who got elected is THAT dumb), and just the same , I wonder how much he was aware that the Georgian armed response consisted of shooting up Tskinval in a chaotic and ineffective manner.

    The man organized filmed provocations against Russian peacekeepers and even participated in them himself; there was film footage of altercations, pushing, shoving, etc... certainly neither Saakashvilli nor his propaganda team ever felt shy about messing with the Russian military.
    It's not proof in any way but with such a boisterous, aggressive, carefree attitude I can imagine that it would be certainly within him to order a direct attack on a Russian base and then dare to imagine that he would get away with it without retaliation.

    And ordering an artillery barrage on a city, at night time, with tens of thousands of civilians living in it and no attempt to forewarn them about an attack. What exactly could Saakashvilli have been expecting, other than massive collateral damage and hundreds of civilian deaths?

    He just simply thought that he could get away with it all. Like a bank-robber or common criminal. "Seemed like a good idea at the time", as they say.
    Truth be told - I didn't think that Russia would directly intervene with their own army either.
    Until they did of course.

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5834
    Points : 5886
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:37 pm

    So it is confirmed. Georgians are still in denial, and look to blame anyone but themselves .

    Enjoy the laugh:

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?157891-Georgian-Army-Navy-and-Air-Force/page307

    Last two pages.

    Werewolf
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5394
    Points : 5643
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:09 am

    TR1 wrote:So it is confirmed. Georgians are still in denial, and look to blame anyone but themselves .

    Enjoy the laugh:

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?157891-Georgian-Army-Navy-and-Air-Force/page307

    Last two pages.

    Till this very day, i've never seen any Georgian who was not denying that Georgian site under Sackarschwilli has started an unprovocated attack on russian peacekeeping troops and total deny of intended killing of civilians in South Ossetia which is denied even after you post videos made by Sackarschwilis ordered depopulation forces.

    Regular
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1982
    Points : 1989
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Regular on Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:25 pm

    TR1 wrote:So it is confirmed. Georgians are still in denial, and look to blame anyone but themselves .

    Enjoy the laugh:

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?157891-Georgian-Army-Navy-and-Air-Force/page307

    Last two pages.

    Dude, it's just few stupid Georgians. Not all of them are in denial, just speak with Georgians living in Moscow. Even on mp.net most Georgians hate Saaka and 080808 war.
    Giorgi Margvelashvili, the new President and new government is like totally different than it was with Saaka. There is a lot of cleaning up to do to oust his clan as much possible. 
    Anyway Georgians never been warlike material, be it Imperial Russia, Soviet army or today's Georgian army. They are French of Caucasus Wink

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15848
    Points : 16553
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:08 pm

    Anyway Georgians never been warlike material, be it Imperial Russia, Soviet army or today's Georgian army. They are French of Caucasus

    And there is no shame in that... wars are terrible wastes of lives and resources and are never totally effective solutions.

    Of course the French have not always backed down from a fight either... if the Germans had treated the French the way they treated the Soviets in WWII I have no doubt the French would have fought to the bitter end... there was no real alternative.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5834
    Points : 5886
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:46 pm

    The French have an epic military history.



    zg18
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 876
    Points : 952
    Join date : 2013-09-26
    Location : Zagreb , Croatia

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  zg18 on Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:22 am

    Regular wrote:They are French of Caucasus Wink

    You should not base French military history solely on 1871 and 1940 and mistakes of their generals , average French soldier was no inferior to German counterpart. Remnants of French 1st army kept entire Blitzkrieg for four days at Lille enabling Dunkirk evacuation that pretty much kept British in the war , it was a pure a sacrifice on their part since they knew battle was lost and is example of selfless courage.

    That four days may seem meaningless but it crushed Hitler`s hopes for peace treaty with Britain and in that sense sealed the fate of WW2.

    Regular
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1982
    Points : 1989
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Regular on Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:31 am

    Well I know French had glorious days when they triumphed culturally and military, I rather picked up British custom to undermine them. What I meant to say that even Russian poets have written about Georgians fleeing the battles hundreds years ago. They don't have clan society and are less hot-headed than their Caucasian brothers and along with Armenians are well integrated in Russian cultural life as showmen. Russian ambassador in my country is Georgian too.

    etaepsilonk
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 717
    Points : 699
    Join date : 2013-11-19

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  etaepsilonk on Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:36 pm

    Regular wrote:Well I know French had glorious days when they triumphed culturally and military, I rather picked up British custom to undermine them. What I meant to say that even Russian poets have written about Georgians fleeing the battles hundreds years ago. They don't have clan society and are less hot-headed than their Caucasian brothers and along with Armenians are well integrated in Russian cultural life as showmen. Russian ambassador in my country is Georgian too.

    You're wrong, brother  Smile 
    Azeris are French of Caucasus.

    If you want you can read about one of the latest border incidents.
    There, at least two Azeri SF units got their a** handed to them by Armenian conscripts  Smile



    To TR1:
    "The French have an epic military history."

    Are you sure about that?  Smile 
    Coz there were only two instances, when French were winning wars:
    In one case they were led by an Italian, and in another- by a woman suffering from hallucinations  Smile

    But yeah, those are pure coincidences, right?  Wink

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3201
    Points : 3329
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:47 pm

    TR1 wrote:So it is confirmed. Georgians are still in denial, and look to blame anyone but themselves .

    Enjoy the laugh:

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?157891-Georgian-Army-Navy-and-Air-Force/page307

    Last two pages.

    Well to be fair, one of them called his previous government as full of criminals and another put forward the theory that Georgia was used as a pawn by the US against Russia.. which is perfectly plausible.

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5834
    Points : 5886
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  TR1 on Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:54 pm

    No pawn, they completely screwed things up themselves.

    Like I said, it is denial of anything that leads to an admission of one's own incompetence.

    AttilaA
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 154
    Points : 185
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  AttilaA on Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:45 pm

    etaepsilonk

    Can you tell me what are you on about? And what latest border incident? Of course if you wish to believe propaganda so, but there was no "SFs" involved, just a border shooting, and Armenians also had casualities, just a regular incident, nothing unusual with regards to its nature and losses.

    By the way, the security of glorious warrior nation of Armenia is entirely connected to its relations with Russia and CSTO. They are very well aware that they are hopeless by themselves, despite all their delusions.

    As for the rambo Armenian conscripts, you tell me what they would do in a real war facing an actual army with everything.

    And before you say it, no, the first Karabakh war is not a indication of what would happen in the second one. The country is not the same, resources is not the same, army is not the same, equipment is not the same. I'm not saying Armenia stuck where it was, but oviously it does not compare to Azerbaijan.


    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3201
    Points : 3329
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:53 am

    AttilaA wrote:etaepsilonk

    Can you tell me what are you on about? And what latest border incident? Of course if you wish to believe propaganda so, but there was no "SFs" involved, just a border shooting, and Armenians also had casualities, just a regular incident, nothing unusual with regards to its nature and losses.

    By the way, the security of glorious warrior nation of Armenia is entirely connected to its relations with Russia and CSTO. They are very well aware that they are hopeless by themselves, despite all their delusions.

    As for the rambo Armenian conscripts, you tell me what they would do in a real war facing an actual army with everything.

    And before you say it, no, the first Karabakh war is not a indication of what would happen in the second one. The country is not the same, resources is not the same, army is not the same, equipment is not the same. I'm not saying Armenia stuck where it was, but oviously it does not compare to Azerbaijan.


    The Armenians definitely aren't pussies; Azerbaijan had advantages in men & materials during the first war (or am I wrong?); at the very least they had the support of Soviet troops for a while that Gorby sent, and then later on - assistance from Turkey, Chechen volunteers, etc... yet the Azeris ultimately lost the territory.
    Hell, Basayev himself said that the only defeat he ever suffered - was at the hands of an Armenian battalion  Smile

    AttilaA
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 154
    Points : 185
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:03 am

    So how would you describe the first Chechen war, which was not even comparable to the balance which existed between Azerbaijan and Armenia during first Karabakh war? There really wasn't all that difference between Azerbaijan and Armenia, and certainly not in technological terms, but more importantly there was barely anyone to man those equipment in a professional way, mostly because of the Soviet policy with regards to military service of Muslims. Also, an actual army in real sense didn't exist, but this would be also more or less true for Armenians, however, they were indeed better organized. In the midst of war, a general rebelled and marched towards Baku with his soldiers and equipment, thats how messed up the situation was in country, and with regards to individuals at top.

    And if we are supposed to talk about "warrior" definition as in traditional sense, not only is it very stupid in our modern world, but also only a really ignorant person can keep on making such claims. Largely nomadic Azerbaijanis (lets keep in mind that this was a term that Stalin gave to us, and we are better known as Tatars or Turkmens in history), whos life revolved around pillaging innhabitants of Caucasia and Iran (not something that I'm proud of, but thats how it was), meant that our traditional culture was much more based on being a "warrior" than sedentary, merchant Armenians.


    Last edited by AttilaA on Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:21 am; edited 2 times in total

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5834
    Points : 5886
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  TR1 on Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:11 am

    This analysis is way too deep.

    Put Georgians in a modern trained army environment, they will do fine. Same for anyone.

    There is no genetic predisposition to being better fighters.

    Georgia fucked up because their political handlers messed up terribly, their military command did as well, and the ground forces were inadequately trained and employed. Simple.

    AttilaA
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 154
    Points : 185
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:26 am

    TR1 wrote:This analysis is way too deep.

    Put Georgians in a modern trained army environment, they will do fine. Same for anyone.

    There is no genetic predisposition to being better fighters.

    Georgia fucked up because their political handlers messed up terribly, their military command did as well, and the ground forces were inadequately trained and employed. Simple.

    Indeed. Besides, I think people are somehow exaggerating the pre-war military build-up of Georgia. Would you say that they were quantitatively and qualitatively adequately equipped? Hardly IMHO.

    The main heavy equipment was little improved, the air defence was inadequate (yet still described as the only "functioning" branch of Georgian army during august war), and almost zero air support.

    Werewolf
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5394
    Points : 5643
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:17 am

    Put Georgians in a modern trained army environment, they will do fine. Same for anyone. Georgia fucked up because their political handlers messed up terribly, their military command did as well, and the ground forces were inadequately trained and employed. Simple. wrote:

    That is a contradiction.

    Equipment won't change the situation when tactics and training are insuffecient deployed.

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3201
    Points : 3329
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:36 am

    AttilaA wrote:So how would you describe the first Chechen war, which was not even comparable to the balance which existed between Azerbaijan and Armenia during first Karabakh war? There really wasn't all that difference between Azerbaijan and Armenia, and certainly not in technological terms, but more importantly there was barely anyone to man those equipment in a professional way, mostly because of the Soviet policy with regards to military service of Muslims. Also, an actual army in real sense didn't exist, but this would be also more or less true for Armenians, however, they were indeed better organized. In the midst of war, a general rebelled and marched towards Baku with his soldiers and equipment, thats how messed up the situation was in country, and with regards to individuals at top.

    And if we are supposed to talk about "warrior" definition as in traditional sense, not only is it very stupid in our modern world, but also only a really ignorant person can keep on making such claims. Largely nomadic Azerbaijanis (lets keep in mind that this was a term that Stalin gave to us, and we are better known as Tatars or Turkmens in history), whos life revolved around pillaging innhabitants of Caucasia and Iran (not something that I'm proud of, but thats how it was), meant that our traditional culture was much more based on being a "warrior" than sedentary, merchant Armenians.

    I never said that the Azeris are cowards, incompetent fighters, etc... simply that the Armenians have proved themselves already in the last war - when other than some Russian/Ukrainian mercenaries and sympathetic officers; they were on their own. Even the USSR went against them after they boycotted the referendum on the USSRs continuation and the Azeri communist leader at the time convinced Gorby of the necessity of a military operation.

    Now whether they prevailed against better odds due to higher morale/tenacity, better military training from Soviet times, more unity & solid organisation, because they had time to entrench themselves, etc... well, I'm simply not one to say. I know far too little about that war.
    And naturally the Azeris are not the same army now just as the Russians are not the same army now which went to Chechnya in 1994.

    Actually the analogy you brought up is a good one. Why did the Russians lose the first war, and take so many casualties? It had nothing to do with warrior tradition:

    a. Completely wrong tactics used, underestimation of the enemy, etc... (on purpose?)
    b. Corrupt officers which sold out their own men, sold information to the enemy, etc...
    c. Politicians who gave up Chechnya even after it had already all been taken under control by the Russian military by 1996.
    d. Huge bunch of young conscripts employed who didn't really want to be there
    e. Brutal tactics used and high collateral damage which increased animosity/resistance by the local population to far higher than it should have been.

    Even from the very start of the war, individual Russian motor-rifle units, etc... when sent in - fulfilled all their objectives, and drove the Chechens completely back. But unfortunately these successes weren't capitalized on or they were given completely nonsensical orders after that.

    However, that's not to discount the Chechens; at the end of the day it was their own resolve and tenacity (and later - terrorist tactics) that allowed them to exploit all these problems and fight against a country with a hundred fold times its military capability; and last long enough to win.
    Now make of that what you will - but it would be foolish to assume that they would suddenly become easy opponents again were a third war to break out.

    etaepsilonk
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 717
    Points : 699
    Join date : 2013-11-19

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:49 pm

    To AttilaA:
    "Of course if you wish to believe propaganda so, but there was no "SFs" involved, just a border shooting, and Armenians also had casualities, just a regular incident, nothing unusual with regards to its nature and losses."

    What? Laughing 

    Sorry dude, but bravery medals being awarded to soldiers dying of "heart failure" is not Armenian invention. Your country admitted 1 casualty, and and at least six others during the following week dying from bizarre reasons, like "driving from the road", "accidently shot by mishandled firearm", "struck by lightning", "hit by falling bricks" and so on. Here's a summary of that incident:
    http://www.panorama.am/en/politics/2014/01/23/shahnazaryan/

    As you can see, there were two attempts to infiltrate the border (maybe they weren't SF units, I don't know that, but conscripts usually aren't used in such operations).
    I understand of course, that the fact of SF units being defeated by conscripts may sound pretty painful for Azeris to admit, but it's much better to realise your mistakes and not ignore them.








    "By the way, the security of glorious warrior nation of Armenia is entirely connected to its relations with Russia and CSTO. They are very well aware that they are hopeless by themselves, despite all their delusions.
    As for the rambo Armenian conscripts, you tell me what they would do in a real war facing an actual army with everything."

    If you want to know, how those "rambo Armenian conscripts" would do in a real war facing an actual army with everything, then why don't you see for yourself?  Smile 

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=85e_1360803455 (Warning, video is pretty graphic)

    Look, no Russia or CSTO whatsoever  Laughing 





    "And before you say it, no, the first Karabakh war is not a indication of what would happen in the second one."

    LOL, you're mixing it up. First Karabakh war was in 1918, where Azerbaijan got their a**es kicked Smile

    Second war was in 1991, where Azerbaijan got their a**es kicked again Smile

    Not sure about you, but I see a pattern here Very Happy




    "The country is not the same, resources is not the same, army is not the same, equipment is not the same."

    Absolutely, next time Artsakh-Karabakh Armenians wouldn't have to capture supplies from Azeris to be able to wage war Smile

    In fact, Armenians were pretty under-equiped for a winning army. You can see so for yourself:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAThP4-sh-w






    "I'm not saying Armenia stuck where it was, but oviously it does not compare to Azerbaijan."

    Yes, Armenia's army is much better.




    "but more importantly there was barely anyone to man those equipment in a professional way, mostly because of the Soviet policy with regards to military service of Muslims."

    Yeah, cool story bro  Laughing  Yes, in Soviet army there was discrimination of Azeris, but trust me, it got nothing to do with religion or nationality  Smile

    AttilaA
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 154
    Points : 185
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:06 pm

    So I'm dealing with a troll, just so I (and other members) know...

    So what are you saying, that we should believe Armenian propaganda? Sure, go on, but don't except others to do so. Armenian side also had a casuality, and there were other casualities following it, so I assume your logic also applies to Armenian side aswell?

    Just few days ago your defence ministry were saying that CSTO are supposedly obliged to assist Armenia in event of a war against Azerbaijan.

    1918-1920 war included several regions, I'm not aware of any Armenian victory during the war, are you now inventing BS out of your a**?

    "Yes, Armenia's army is much better."

    You reached a new level of absurdity.

    "Yeah, cool story bro"

    What are you, twelve?

    Sponsored content

    Re: 2008 South Ossetia war

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:39 am