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    2008 Russo-Georgian War

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    chenzhao

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  chenzhao on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:17 pm

    Anyway, In 2008 Shanghai Coopreation Organization (SCO) member state header's summit, China agreed to sign an announcement saying:

    The member states of the SCO express their deep concern in connection with the recent tension around the issue of South Ossetia, and call on the relevant parties to resolve existing problems in a peaceful way through dialogue, to make efforts for reconciliation and facilitation of negotiations.

    The member states of the SCO welcome the signing on 13 August 2008 in Moscow of the six principles of settling the conflict in South Ossetia, and support the active role of Russia in promoting peace and cooperation in the region.

    Which can be explained as a indirect support stance to Russsia.
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    TR1

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:20 pm

    Perhaps - but China's unwillingness to support Russia even when the instigator was clearly Georgia, does not bode well for the SCO's credibility as a defense pact.
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    chenzhao

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  chenzhao on Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:14 am

    Perhaps - but China's unwillingness to support Russia even when the instigator was clearly Georgia, does not bode well for the SCO's credibility as a defense pact.
    Yes. I hope new Chinese leaders who will take their office at spring 2013, could take remedial measures to this problem, for example: recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia .
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    Regular

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  Regular on Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:13 pm

    Sorry for necroposting
    But if You look at new Georgian government You'll see that Saakashvilli days are numbered. US is doing "great" job in protecting their asset. Hope he will get prosecuted, but I bet he will go back to US sooner or later.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:19 pm

    TR1 wrote:Perhaps - but China's unwillingness to support Russia even when the instigator was clearly Georgia, does not bode well for the SCO's credibility as a defense pact.
    On the other hand, i think its good that the SCO isn't such an organization, i mean the last thing we need is to give NATO a reason to exist. Cool
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    flamming_python

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:27 pm

    TR1 wrote:Also, another thing I am very interested in, is the amount of control and communication Saaka had with ground forces in South Ossetia. I can't believe he would order them to attack the Russian peacekeeper base (not to give credit to the man, but no one who got elected is THAT dumb), and just the same , I wonder how much he was aware that the Georgian armed response consisted of shooting up Tskinval in a chaotic and ineffective manner.

    The man organized filmed provocations against Russian peacekeepers and even participated in them himself; there was film footage of altercations, pushing, shoving, etc... certainly neither Saakashvilli nor his propaganda team ever felt shy about messing with the Russian military.
    It's not proof in any way but with such a boisterous, aggressive, carefree attitude I can imagine that it would be certainly within him to order a direct attack on a Russian base and then dare to imagine that he would get away with it without retaliation.

    And ordering an artillery barrage on a city, at night time, with tens of thousands of civilians living in it and no attempt to forewarn them about an attack. What exactly could Saakashvilli have been expecting, other than massive collateral damage and hundreds of civilian deaths?

    He just simply thought that he could get away with it all. Like a bank-robber or common criminal. "Seemed like a good idea at the time", as they say.
    Truth be told - I didn't think that Russia would directly intervene with their own army either.
    Until they did of course.
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    TR1

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:37 pm

    So it is confirmed. Georgians are still in denial, and look to blame anyone but themselves .

    Enjoy the laugh:

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?157891-Georgian-Army-Navy-and-Air-Force/page307

    Last two pages.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:09 am

    TR1 wrote:So it is confirmed. Georgians are still in denial, and look to blame anyone but themselves .

    Enjoy the laugh:

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?157891-Georgian-Army-Navy-and-Air-Force/page307

    Last two pages.

    Till this very day, i've never seen any Georgian who was not denying that Georgian site under Sackarschwilli has started an unprovocated attack on russian peacekeeping troops and total deny of intended killing of civilians in South Ossetia which is denied even after you post videos made by Sackarschwilis ordered depopulation forces.
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    Regular

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  Regular on Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:25 pm

    TR1 wrote:So it is confirmed. Georgians are still in denial, and look to blame anyone but themselves .

    Enjoy the laugh:

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?157891-Georgian-Army-Navy-and-Air-Force/page307

    Last two pages.

    Dude, it's just few stupid Georgians. Not all of them are in denial, just speak with Georgians living in Moscow. Even on mp.net most Georgians hate Saaka and 080808 war.
    Giorgi Margvelashvili, the new President and new government is like totally different than it was with Saaka. There is a lot of cleaning up to do to oust his clan as much possible. 
    Anyway Georgians never been warlike material, be it Imperial Russia, Soviet army or today's Georgian army. They are French of Caucasus Wink
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:08 pm

    Anyway Georgians never been warlike material, be it Imperial Russia, Soviet army or today's Georgian army. They are French of Caucasus

    And there is no shame in that... wars are terrible wastes of lives and resources and are never totally effective solutions.

    Of course the French have not always backed down from a fight either... if the Germans had treated the French the way they treated the Soviets in WWII I have no doubt the French would have fought to the bitter end... there was no real alternative.


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    TR1

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:46 pm

    The French have an epic military history.


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    zg18

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  zg18 on Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:22 am

    Regular wrote:They are French of Caucasus Wink

    You should not base French military history solely on 1871 and 1940 and mistakes of their generals , average French soldier was no inferior to German counterpart. Remnants of French 1st army kept entire Blitzkrieg for four days at Lille enabling Dunkirk evacuation that pretty much kept British in the war , it was a pure a sacrifice on their part since they knew battle was lost and is example of selfless courage.

    That four days may seem meaningless but it crushed Hitler`s hopes for peace treaty with Britain and in that sense sealed the fate of WW2.
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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  Regular on Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:31 am

    Well I know French had glorious days when they triumphed culturally and military, I rather picked up British custom to undermine them. What I meant to say that even Russian poets have written about Georgians fleeing the battles hundreds years ago. They don't have clan society and are less hot-headed than their Caucasian brothers and along with Armenians are well integrated in Russian cultural life as showmen. Russian ambassador in my country is Georgian too.

    etaepsilonk

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  etaepsilonk on Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:36 pm

    Regular wrote:Well I know French had glorious days when they triumphed culturally and military, I rather picked up British custom to undermine them. What I meant to say that even Russian poets have written about Georgians fleeing the battles hundreds years ago. They don't have clan society and are less hot-headed than their Caucasian brothers and along with Armenians are well integrated in Russian cultural life as showmen. Russian ambassador in my country is Georgian too.

    You're wrong, brother  Smile 
    Azeris are French of Caucasus.

    If you want you can read about one of the latest border incidents.
    There, at least two Azeri SF units got their a** handed to them by Armenian conscripts  Smile



    To TR1:
    "The French have an epic military history."

    Are you sure about that?  Smile 
    Coz there were only two instances, when French were winning wars:
    In one case they were led by an Italian, and in another- by a woman suffering from hallucinations  Smile

    But yeah, those are pure coincidences, right?  Wink
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    flamming_python

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:47 pm

    TR1 wrote:So it is confirmed. Georgians are still in denial, and look to blame anyone but themselves .

    Enjoy the laugh:

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?157891-Georgian-Army-Navy-and-Air-Force/page307

    Last two pages.

    Well to be fair, one of them called his previous government as full of criminals and another put forward the theory that Georgia was used as a pawn by the US against Russia.. which is perfectly plausible.
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    TR1

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  TR1 on Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:54 pm

    No pawn, they completely screwed things up themselves.

    Like I said, it is denial of anything that leads to an admission of one's own incompetence.
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    TR1

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  TR1 on Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:11 am

    This analysis is way too deep.

    Put Georgians in a modern trained army environment, they will do fine. Same for anyone.

    There is no genetic predisposition to being better fighters.

    Georgia fucked up because their political handlers messed up terribly, their military command did as well, and the ground forces were inadequately trained and employed. Simple.

    AttilaA

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:26 am

    TR1 wrote:This analysis is way too deep.

    Put Georgians in a modern trained army environment, they will do fine. Same for anyone.

    There is no genetic predisposition to being better fighters.

    Georgia fucked up because their political handlers messed up terribly, their military command did as well, and the ground forces were inadequately trained and employed. Simple.

    Indeed. Besides, I think people are somehow exaggerating the pre-war military build-up of Georgia. Would you say that they were quantitatively and qualitatively adequately equipped? Hardly IMHO.

    The main heavy equipment was little improved, the air defence was inadequate (yet still described as the only "functioning" branch of Georgian army during august war), and almost zero air support.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:17 am

    Put Georgians in a modern trained army environment, they will do fine. Same for anyone. Georgia fucked up because their political handlers messed up terribly, their military command did as well, and the ground forces were inadequately trained and employed. Simple. wrote:

    That is a contradiction.

    Equipment won't change the situation when tactics and training are insuffecient deployed.
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    Godric

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  Godric on Thu May 21, 2015 8:37 pm

    Saakashvili is nothing but a cowardly scumbag he told the citizens of S Ossetia that he was aiming for peace then bombarded them when they were sleeping ... I hope he gets dragged through the streets of Tskhinvali
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    Odin of Ossetia

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:21 am

    AttilaA wrote:So how would you describe the first Chechen war, which was not even comparable to the balance which existed between Azerbaijan and Armenia during first Karabakh war? There really wasn't all that difference between Azerbaijan and Armenia, and certainly not in technological terms, but more importantly there was barely anyone to man those equipment in a professional way, mostly because of the Soviet policy with regards to military service of Muslims. Also, an actual army in real sense didn't exist, but this would be also more or less true for Armenians, however, they were indeed better organized. In the midst of war, a general rebelled and marched towards Baku with his soldiers and equipment, thats how messed up the situation was in country, and with regards to individuals at top.

    And if we are supposed to talk about "warrior" definition as in traditional sense, not only is it very stupid in our modern world, but also only a really ignorant person can keep on making such claims. Largely nomadic Azerbaijanis (lets keep in mind that this was a term that Stalin gave to us, and we are better known as Tatars or Turkmens in history), whos life revolved around pillaging innhabitants of Caucasia and Iran (not something that I'm proud of, but thats how it was), meant that our traditional culture was much more based on being a "warrior" than sedentary, merchant Armenians.


    One of the factors also to take into account is that the Armenian gangs were financed and supported by both the CIA and the diaspora.

    I read a while ago that there was some discrimination in the Soviet military; ethnic Armenians were permitted to serve in front-line combat units, even elite ones like the VDV, whereas ethnic Azeris and members of the other Turkic nationalities were confined to only support units. This resulted in the ethnic Armenians getting much better combat training and experience.

    That discrimination dates back to Czarist times; during the Armenian-Tatar/Azeri War at the beginning of the 20th century, ethnic Armenians were often wealthy merchants who could afford guns, while the Tatars/Azeris usually had only bow and arrows as their only shooting weapons system.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:40 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:
    AttilaA wrote:So how would you describe the first Chechen war, which was not even comparable to the balance which existed between Azerbaijan and Armenia during first Karabakh war? There really wasn't all that difference between Azerbaijan and Armenia, and certainly not in technological terms, but more importantly there was barely anyone to man those equipment in a professional way, mostly because of the Soviet policy with regards to military service of Muslims. Also, an actual army in real sense didn't exist, but this would be also more or less true for Armenians, however, they were indeed better organized. In the midst of war, a general rebelled and marched towards Baku with his soldiers and equipment, thats how messed up the situation was in country, and with regards to individuals at top.

    And if we are supposed to talk about "warrior" definition as in traditional sense, not only is it very stupid in our modern world, but also only a really ignorant person can keep on making such claims. Largely nomadic Azerbaijanis (lets keep in mind that this was a term that Stalin gave to us, and we are better known as Tatars or Turkmens in history), whos life revolved around pillaging innhabitants of Caucasia and Iran (not something that I'm proud of, but thats how it was), meant that our traditional culture was much more based on being a "warrior" than sedentary, merchant Armenians.


    One of the factors also to take into account is that the Armenian gangs were financed and supported by both the CIA and the diaspora.

    I read a while ago that there was some discrimination in the Soviet military; ethnic Armenians were permitted to serve in front-line combat units, even elite ones like the VDV, whereas ethnic Azeris and members of the other Turkic nationalities were confined to only support units. This resulted in the ethnic Armenians getting much better combat training and experience.  

    That discrimination dates back to Czarist times; during the Armenian-Tatar/Azeri War at the beginning of the 20th century, ethnic Armenians were often wealthy merchants who could afford guns, while the Tatars/Azeris usually had only bow and arrows as their only shooting weapons system.

    Logistics is half the battle; Azerbaijan should have been able to leverage its enormous pool of experience in stroibats and driver-mechanics Smile
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    Book.

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    Ru army capture spider sam. 2008

    Post  Book. on Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:45 am

    Ru army capture spider sam. 2008


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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  TheGeorgian on Wed May 25, 2016 11:11 pm

    I know this is pretty late and but a lot of hose figures mentioned above, not provided in the sources outside the CAST analysis of Vyacheslav Tseluyko from October 2008 - and seriously - it's not just too early assessment ( October 2008 ) but it's also from CAST. It's not as bad as Moscow Defense Brief though .... but it's still CAST. I consider both worse than the other.

    What amuses me most is that Tseluyko states "The Georgian Army also had a large quantity of 9K111 Fagot and 9K111M Faktoria (AT-4), and 9K113 Konkurs (AT-5) anti-tank guided-missile systems" .... now that's utter nonsense, almost laughable. What does he base that grandiose statement on ?

    If that was actualy the case, then why did the Georgians not make use of that tacticaly highly significant capability .... ? just one unit equipped with one of those weapons managed to stall the entire Russian advance untill Vostok troops cleared them out. There was only one or two occasions that indicated Georgia posessed a number of modern anti-tank capabilities. One was the shelling of the Russian convoy near Zemo Nikosi where the Russians lost a few vehicles to artillery and ATGM fire ( mostly artillery though ), and afaik only one Fagot launcher was found in the forest during the counterattack and one Georgian artillery observer who got killed. Then I remember that the Russian army captured some other launcher or two when seizing weapon bunkers - if that's even true. Georgians deployed D-44s to fight a potential Russian attack on Tbilisi .... D-44s .... The Georgian army didn't receive notable quantities of anti-tank weapons, namely Fagot and Konkurs untill mid-late 2009 when they were for the first time used in manouvers - "Shield 2009" and a few Metis not very long ago. That was the first time designated anti-tank battallions were consequently equipped with ATGM launchers. 2008 is the reason why Georgia desperately started to search for ways to acquire ATGMs and up untill just recently Ukraine was the only supplier of such weapons. The casualty figures are as allways bloated and if you trust some other Russian claims from that time, than virtualy the Georgian army ceased to exist in 2008 as it practicaly suffered millions of losses. Though it is true, the "Navy" got sunk and a few dozen tanks and IFV's lost and captured ( wouldn't have been so painfull if it weren't all 15 modernised BMPs ), as well as prob a few hundred or thousand firearms seized from the various weapon bunkers in SO. But we did neither lose almost all of the air defence, neither all of the airforce ( in fact, none of the bombers were even damaged ) and most other stuff remained intact, especialy the rotor wing. We did however lose a number of fixed-and rotor aircraft on ground. Artillery suffered a little too especialy during the Borjom bombing. We lost all Pions except one afaik and some Danas and a number of mortars and howitzers, still not even close to heavy but still notable. Most of the radars were in fact destroyed and the air defense suffered quite some losses, but not even close to total. The only realy sensitive losses were those 1 or 2 Spyders and 1 or 2 Buks that fell into enemy hands and got later destroyed. But on the other hand manpads proved to be more valuable than any of the close-mid range AA's, which the Georgians still had difficulties to operate.  
    But I don't blame Russia, the Georgian goverment back then also claimed to have practicaly dismantled the Russian 58th army destroying at least 100 tanks and god knows how many aircraft ^^
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: 2008 Russo-Georgian War

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed May 25, 2016 11:29 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:I know this is pretty late and but a lot of hose figures mentioned above, not provided in the sources outside the CAST analysis of Vyacheslav Tseluyko from October 2008 - and seriously - it's not just too early assessment ( October 2008 ) but it's also from CAST. It's not as bad as Moscow Defense Brief though .... but it's still CAST. I consider both worse than the other.

    What amuses me most is that Tseluyko states "The Georgian Army also had a large quantity of 9K111 Fagot and 9K111M Faktoria (AT-4), and 9K113 Konkurs (AT-5) anti-tank guided-missile systems" .... now that's utter nonsense, almost laughable. What does he base that grandiose statement on ?

    If that was actualy the case, then why did the Georgians not make use of that tacticaly highly significant capability .... ? just one unit equipped with one of those weapons managed to stall the entire Russian advance untill Vostok troops cleared them out. There was only one or two occasions that indicated Georgia posessed a number of modern anti-tank capabilities. One was the shelling of the Russian convoy near Zemo Nikosi where the Russians lost a few vehicles to artillery and ATGM fire ( mostly artillery though ), and afaik only one Fagot launcher was found in the forest during the counterattack and one Georgian artillery observer who got killed. Then I remember that the Russian army captured some other launcher or two when seizing weapon bunkers - if that's even true. Georgians deployed D-44s to fight a potential Russian attack on Tbilisi .... D-44s .... The Georgian army didn't receive notable quantities of anti-tank weapons, namely Fagot and Konkurs untill mid-late 2009 when they were for the first time used in manouvers - "Shield 2009" and a few Metis not very long ago. That was the first time designated anti-tank battallions were consequently equipped with ATGM launchers. 2008 is the reason why Georgia desperately started to search for ways to acquire ATGMs and up untill just recently Ukraine was the only supplier of such weapons. The casualty figures are as allways bloated and if you trust some other Russian claims from that time, than virtualy the Georgian army ceased to exist in 2008 as it practicaly suffered millions of losses. Though it is true, the "Navy" got sunk and a few dozen tanks and IFV's lost and captured ( wouldn't have been so painfull if it weren't all 15 modernised BMPs ), as well as prob a few hundred or thousand firearms seized from the various weapon bunkers in SO. But we did neither lose almost all of the air defence, neither all of the airforce ( in fact, none of the bombers were even damaged ) and most other stuff remained intact, especialy the rotor wing. We did however lose a number of fixed-and rotor aircraft on ground. Artillery suffered a little too especialy during the Borjom bombing. We lost all Pions except one afaik and some Danas and a number of mortars and howitzers, still not even close to heavy but still notable. Most of the radars were in fact destroyed and the air defense suffered quite some losses, but not even close to total. The only realy sensitive losses were those 1 or 2 Spyders and 1 or 2 Buks that fell into enemy hands and got later destroyed. But on the other hand manpads proved to be more valuable than any of the close-mid range AA's, which the Georgians still had difficulties to operate.  
    But I don't blame Russia, the Georgian goverment back then also claimed to have practicaly dismantled the Russian 58th army destroying at least 100 tanks and god knows how many aircraft ^^

    Because you had three breakdowns.

    Tactical, lost most of the motor pool from air attacks and city warfare.
    C2, your C2 nodes were history by 9th of August.
    Will power, once the Russians were through, things got messy.

    Ukrainains had also those assets, didn't stopped them from being curbed and dare I say far faster than the Georgians over a far deeper corridor.

    I understand that you don't like to get belitted but as clear as it looks, ATGM's in the configuration of late 9th August would have done you no good, it would simply pushed Russians to steamroll you like they did to Ukraine.

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