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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

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    GarryB
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:27 pm

    Very clever configuration with those truck mounted systems... you don't need guns on every vehicle, and you don't need search radar on every vehicle... a battery of 6-8 vehicles could have 2-3 vehicles with search radar and guns, while the remaining 4-5 vehicles can have extra missiles.

    that would give the chance to have a search radar searching but another one or two search radar just listening, with these vehicles switching roles and then moving to keep a good view of the local air space while remaining safe from SEAD aircraft.

    the other vehicles will be handed targets which they can engage on their own in fairly large numbers due to the extra missiles they carry.

    Assuming 8 vehicles to a battery with three having search radars being command vehicles and 5 being missile turrets that means 6 x 30mm twin barrel cannon, plus (24 x 5) + (12 x 3) missiles = 156 ready to fire missiles... which is plenty.


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:14 pm

    Pantsir-SM is no more SHORAD, but medium range SAM with similar range as Buk-M1. It doesn't need search radar on every vehicle like SHORAD need, because of shorter range. I think Pantsir-SM will cover a niche between S-350 and Pantsir-S1 in VKO and in PVO VVS.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Viktor on Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:Very clever configuration with those truck mounted systems... you don't need guns on every vehicle, and you don't need search radar on every vehicle... a battery of 6-8 vehicles could have 2-3 vehicles with search radar and guns, while the remaining 4-5 vehicles can have extra missiles.

    that would give the chance to have a search radar searching but another one or two search radar just listening, with these vehicles switching roles and then moving to keep a good view of the local air space while remaining safe from SEAD aircraft.

    the other vehicles will be handed targets which they can engage on their own in fairly large numbers due to the extra missiles they carry.

    Assuming 8 vehicles to a battery with three having search radars being command vehicles and 5 being missile turrets that means 6 x 30mm twin barrel cannon, plus (24 x 5) + (12 x 3) missiles = 156 ready to fire missiles... which is plenty.

    I completely agree. No what if some of the Pancir-S1 would mix with the Pancir-S1 to form a single multilayer system covering everything up to 40km thus sold as such.


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:35 pm

    Pantsir-SM is no more SHORAD, but medium range SAM with similar range as Buk-M1. It doesn't need search radar on every vehicle like SHORAD need, because of shorter range. I think Pantsir-SM will cover a niche between S-350 and Pantsir-S1 in VKO and in PVO VVS.

    For that to be the case there would need to be another vehicle for the Pantsir-SM with a search radar to get target information for the SM to find its targets.


    I suppose in an IAD that they might get target information from the network, but the question is... does this suggest a new structure... I mean BUK has some pretty substantial radar vehicles that operate with it to collect data.... is the Pantsir-S with the search radar intended to be a combined search system and SHORAD that can be attached to any SAM battery to scan for targets and also offer close in defence of enemy munitions?

    Personally I think Pantsir-SM is the same as the 40km range S-350 small missile and would be redundant... except for the greater numbers the SM is carried in.

    the other question is... at 40km what is SMs guidance method... is it still command guided out to 40km? Or have they adapted an ARH MMW radar seeker or IIR seeker or both combined from the HERMES missile system.. in which case they would become more expensive but also more useful... the export tracking radar for Pantsir can handle 3 target tracking channels with the fourth target being engaged optically. The SM clearly has an optical turret and tracking radar but with terminal guidance that means it could target up to 4 targets at a time but the high speed missiles would rapidly get close enough to get a lock releasing guidance channels for more missiles to be launched before the first missiles have impacted the target.

    Personally I think the Pantsirs will all operate together as SHORADs even though the newer SMs can reach 40km I suspect that will be to make the SHORAD more effective by being able to shoot down some launch platforms as well as incoming munitions... easier to shoot down one Apache at 25km than let the Apache fire off all its 16 missiles and then close to try to get you with its gun... 1 target vs 17.


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    the other question is... at 40km what is SMs guidance method... is it still command guided out to 40km? Or have they adapted an ARH MMW radar seeker or IIR seeker or both combined from the HERMES missile system.. in which case they would become more expensive but also more useful... the export tracking radar for Pantsir can handle 3 target tracking channels with the fourth target being engaged optically. The SM clearly has an optical turret and tracking radar but with terminal guidance that means it could target up to 4 targets at a time but the high speed missiles would rapidly get close enough to get a lock releasing guidance channels for more missiles to be launched before the first missiles have impacted the target.

    Personally I think the Pantsirs will all operate together as SHORADs even though the newer SMs can reach 40km I suspect that will be to make the SHORAD more effective by being able to shoot down some launch platforms as well as incoming munitions... easier to shoot down one Apache at 25km than let the Apache fire off all its 16 missiles and then close to try to get you with its gun... 1 target vs 17.

    Well, command guidance is reliable until 60 km more than it radar pointing error become too large to handle. So 40 Km are still fine with command guidance.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Pantsir-SM is no more SHORAD, but medium range SAM with similar range as Buk-M1. It doesn't need search radar on every vehicle like SHORAD need, because of shorter range. I think Pantsir-SM will cover a niche between S-350 and Pantsir-S1 in VKO and in PVO VVS.

    For that to be the case there would need to be another vehicle for the Pantsir-SM with a search radar to get target information for the SM to find its targets.


    I suppose in an IAD that they might get target information from the network, but the question is... does this suggest a new structure... I mean BUK has some pretty substantial radar vehicles that operate with it to collect data.... is the Pantsir-S with the search radar intended to be a combined search system and SHORAD that can be attached to any SAM battery to scan for targets and also offer close in defence of enemy munitions?

    Personally I think Pantsir-SM is the same as the 40km range S-350 small missile and would be redundant... except for the greater numbers the SM is carried in.

    the other question is... at 40km what is SMs guidance method... is it still command guided out to 40km? Or have they adapted an ARH MMW radar seeker or IIR seeker or both combined from the HERMES missile system.. in which case they would become more expensive but also more useful... the export tracking radar for Pantsir can handle 3 target tracking channels with the fourth target being engaged optically. The SM clearly has an optical turret and tracking radar but with terminal guidance that means it could target up to 4 targets at a time but the high speed missiles would rapidly get close enough to get a lock releasing guidance channels for more missiles to be launched before the first missiles have impacted the target.

    Personally I think the Pantsirs will all operate together as SHORADs even though the newer SMs can reach 40km I suspect that will be to make the SHORAD more effective by being able to shoot down some launch platforms as well as incoming munitions... easier to shoot down one Apache at 25km than let the Apache fire off all its 16 missiles and then close to try to get you with its gun... 1 target vs 17.

    Pantsir-S1 battery radar 1RL123 is enough effective to work with Pantsir-SM. I think Pantsir-SM will keep radio guidance. In my opinion radio guidance is better than ARH, specially in heavy ECM environment and against stealth targets, because in those cases ARH homing head will difficultly see target and lock on it, while with radio guidance, radar doesn't need to see target, it is enough to have visual contact with target and radio guiding channel will guide missile in line of sight. Actually using different types of guidance inside IADS will make it even harder nut for enemy air force.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:48 am

    against stealth targets, because in those cases ARH homing head will difficultly see target and lock on it,

    Quite true.... you can get the targets precise position via another method then command guidance is just a case of 4D maths... getting longitude, latitude, and altitude to match exactly at one time would be a hit.

    Of course the unification of Hermes and Pantsir-S and Pantsir-SM would be interesting in that you could have a few missiles with GLONASS guidance or IIR guidance or MMW... or indeed all three with the capability of adding laser target marking to the mix as well as much cheaper command guidance missiles and you get all the benefits and can manage the costs as required.

    Pantsir-S and Pantsir-SM could completely replace SHORAD and an SA-6 level missile combination... in fact it could replace the whole Shilka, OSA, KUB system.

    Very exciting as its main missile is very cheap and simple and could be made in enormous numbers.


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    against stealth targets, because in those cases ARH homing head will difficultly see target and lock on it,

    Quite true.... you can get the targets precise position via another method then command guidance is just a case of 4D maths... getting longitude, latitude, and altitude to match exactly at one time would be a hit.

    Of course the unification of Hermes and Pantsir-S and Pantsir-SM would be interesting in that you could have a few missiles with GLONASS guidance or IIR guidance or MMW... or indeed all three with the capability of adding laser target marking to the mix as well as much cheaper command guidance missiles and you get all the benefits and can manage the costs as required.

    Pantsir-S and Pantsir-SM could completely replace SHORAD and an SA-6 level missile combination... in fact it could replace the whole Shilka, OSA, KUB system.

    Very exciting as its main missile is very cheap and simple and could be made in enormous numbers.
    Osa.... now that i think about it, i don't think i have ever seen the amphibious version of Pantsir in the water!?

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:57 am

    Osa.... now that i think about it, i don't think i have ever seen the amphibious version of Pantsir in the water!?

    The issue is that up until now Pantsir has been an air force system.

    Of course tunguska was not amphibious either, and considering TOR is the actual replacement for OSA and it is not amphibious as well.

    If there is a Boomerang or Kurganets based model of Pantsir for army use then perhaps they might be amphibious.


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:06 am

    Arctic version of Pantsir


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Zivo on Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:19 am

    George1 wrote:Arctic version of Pantsir


    I like the camo.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:37 am

    Zivo wrote:
    George1 wrote:Arctic version of Pantsir


    I like the camo.

    yeah..its like zebra

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:05 pm

    Enjoy this presentation:


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  KRATOS1133 on Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:25 pm


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:03 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Enjoy this presentation:

    hmm, at 1:30 the you guys will see the system mounted on a tracked chassis- Kurganets?

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:19 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Enjoy this presentation:

    hmm, at 1:30 the you guys will see the system mounted on a tracked chassis- Kurganets?

    The Kurganets version in the video looks to be the medium range Pantsir-SM with 45 km range missiles, while the Kamaz Typhoon (which may very well be air-droppable) is the SHORAD Pantsir-S1.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:38 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    collegeboy16 wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Enjoy this presentation:

    hmm, at 1:30 the you guys will see the system mounted on a tracked chassis- Kurganets?

    The Kurganets version in the video looks to be the medium range Pantsir-SM with 45 km range missiles, while the Kamaz Typhoon (which may very well be air-droppable) is the SHORAD Pantsir-S1.

    Neither of Pantsirs on video is SHORAD Pantsir-S1. Both are Pantsir-SM, which work in the same complex. One have search radar and guns, other have more missiles but without guns and search radar. Battery will for sure have command post and battery search radar. Anyway neither version of Pantsirs is air droppable, they are too heavy.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:13 am

    Just the missile envelope view at the end of the video suggests the vehicle with the search radar has shorter range missiles and of course guns and deals with close range targets and low flying targets presumably to 20km like Pantsir-S, but the blue missile envelope showing the 45km range missile showed little low level engagement capability.

    therefore I suspect the two vehicles have different missiles and compliment each other forming the equivalent of Pantsir-S and BUK operating together, though with rather more BUK missiles...


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:19 pm

    WoW

    It seems that Morocco ordered 50 pancir-S1 systems !!!!

    LINK


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:26 pm

    Viktor wrote:WoW

    It seems that Morocco ordered 50 pancir-S1 systems !!!!

    LINK


    Ohh ffs not again!

    Russia should sanction Morocco from military hardware those bastards already have cheated with T-80, Kontakt-5 ERA, MSTA-S and few other hardware and shipped it to US and UK.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:32 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Ohh ffs not again!

    Russia should sanction Morocco from military hardware those bastards already have cheated with T-80, Kontakt-5 ERA, MSTA-S and few other hardware and shipped it to US and UK.

    There are few levels of Russian military hardware

    - intended for Russian army and its closest alies
    - export version for Russian allies
    - export version for Russian partner states that are stable
    - export version for states that are unstable and change of government is likely (meaning Russian hardware could find itself in a wrong hands)

    I think Morocco falls in the last category Very Happy

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:36 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Ohh ffs not again!

    Russia should sanction Morocco from military hardware those bastards already have cheated with T-80, Kontakt-5 ERA, MSTA-S and few other hardware and shipped it to US and UK.

    There are few levels of Russian military hardware

    - intended for Russian army and its closest alies
    - export version for Russian allies
    - export version for Russian partner states that are stable
    - export version for states that are unstable and change of government is likely (meaning Russian hardware could find itself in a wrong hands)

    I think Morocco falls in the last category Very Happy

    The last group should be the group of sanctioned puppet nations, period. There money isn't worth anything the damage they have caused.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:57 pm

    Werewolf wrote:The last group should be the group of sanctioned puppet nations, period. There money isn't worth anything the damage they have caused.

    Take in to account that Pancir-S1 was made because UAE gave money in the first place - so exporting something UAE also has, has no security issues but earns money - a lots of it Very Happy

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:22 pm

    Werewolf wrote:

    Ohh ffs not again!

    Russia should sanction Morocco from military hardware those bastards already have cheated with T-80, Kontakt-5 ERA, MSTA-S and few other hardware and shipped it to US and UK.
    id say a deal is ok if the price it right- they better jack the price really high Twisted Evil .

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:45 pm

    Nice Very Happy







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