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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:27 pm

    Tunguska didn´t replace Strela-10, it complemented it. Each brigade has an air defence batallion with 6 Tunguskas and 6 Strela-10´s (will be replaced mid-

    Tunguska didn't even completely replace Shilka... TOR didn't even come close to replacing OSA... though OSA replaced the S-60 57mm guns.


    The new Pantsir-SM-SV could become part of a new formation of brigades or divisons, on the latter it would compelment the Buk-M2/3 systems.

    Which is possible... they might use it as a numbers weapon to counter an enemy using swarm attacks or large numbers of drones... in which case the Pantsir would occupy the medium range large volume missile the S-350 would occupy in the aerospace defence forces... though it might be that the S-350 is too expensive to be the numbers missile and perhaps the Pantsir might expand into that role too...

    long years ago I've read that new Pantris missiles will have 5+ Ma max speed. So 1,8km /S +

    In the 1990s there was a german magazine called Military Technology that I used to read... in one issue they had an advert for sounding rockets... it showed a range of different configurations with about three different sized booster rockets that could be used in different combinations.... either with one booster or two boosters together. The three different sized boosters offer different performance so you could use any combination from one of the smallest boosters, to two tandem of the biggest rockets and everything in between.

    All the boosters were standardised and the smallest look identical to the booster rockets used on the SA-19.

    I rather suspect the SA-22 has a bigger booster and in almost 30 years I am sure they have improved the performance of the boosters too.


    standard config AFAIK is 3 pantsirs to protect one S-300. 3x12 = 36. Now we have 1 AESA with likely 360 wiev + 24 missiles on tel. + ew one more 57mm for close protection.

    Those mini quad missiles are supposed to be for blunting a mass attack, but while I doubt they would replace all tubes with these quad launchers they might replace 1/4 to 1/3rd of them to boost the number of available missiles.
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    Hole

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Hole on Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:02 pm

    Osa is still in use in some brigades but not side by side with Tor.

    The 9K35 Strela 10 / SA-13 Gopher was developed as a replacement for the 9K31 Strela 1 / SA-9 Gaskin, and was intended to provide a system with better mobility and a longer ranging and more lethal missile design. Development was initiated in 1969, in parallel with the 2K22 Tunguska / SA-19 Grison, the intent being to provide a complementary system with a btter capability in heavily jammed environments, where the radar directed SPAAG might be at a disadvantage. Design requirements included the ability to engage closing targets with speeds of up to 415 m/s and receding targets at 310 m/s, at altitudes between 25 m and 3,500 m, at ranges between 800 and 5,000 m. A single shot Pk between 0.5 and 0.6 for targets with load factors between 3 and 5G was envisaged. The system was to be relatively autonomous capable of providing point defence for maneuvre formations. The system was to be air transportable by An-12 Cub and Mi-6 helicopter, and able to cross bodies of water.

    Now Sosna will replace Strela-10 in the long run and work side by side with Tunguska and/or 2S38.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:57 pm

    Osa is still in use in some brigades but not side by side with Tor.

    No, TOR is an expensive system so any unit that needed it would get it but any unit that didn't wouldn't get any.

    Development was initiated in 1969, in parallel with the 2K22 Tunguska / SA-19 Grison, the intent being to provide a complementary system with a btter capability in heavily jammed environments, where the radar directed SPAAG might be at a disadvantage.

    The SA-19 was better than the SA-13 in all regards, including in jammed environments.

    Now Sosna will replace Strela-10 in the long run and work side by side with Tunguska and/or 2S38.

    SOSNA is a huge step forward over Strela-10 and will be a very good addition to the Russian military forces.

    It is faster, longer ranged, less susceptible to DIRCMS or decoy flares, and likely cheaper too.

    The fire and forget aspect of the Strela-10 is less important because SOSNA will use auto trackers and the very high speed of the missile means even engagements out to 8kms means a missile flight time of about 12 seconds... which is perfectly acceptable.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    standard config AFAIK is 3 pantsirs to protect one S-300. 3x12 = 36. Now we have 1 AESA with likely 360 wiev + 24 missiles on tel. + ew one more 57mm for close protection.

    Those mini quad missiles are supposed to be for blunting a mass attack, but while I doubt they would replace all tubes with these quad launchers they might replace 1/4 to 1/3rd of them to boost the number of available missiles.

    combination of speed, height and numbers to me means not only anty air raid but most probably also anit missile (IRBM or PGS) type of attacks. Why so many?
    Well hypersonic warheads are likely to maneuver, the more missiles the more chance to hit...

    Of coruse I can be wrong but why in advent of US INF withdrawal + PGS project is on they build such systems? It is way to high t any bomber/fighter.

    Me thnks those massivelaunchers will be very popular.

    BTW NATO have `round 7000 fighters/bombers Russia has by order of magnitude less. So Russian VKS must take most ofdefenc ewieght on thei shoulders.

    BTW Buk-3 height is... 35kms too. And number of missiles is 6+radar or 12 tel.
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    Hole

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Hole on Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:57 pm

    Lets recapitulate.

    new Pantsir-SM will be on armored truck or tracked vehicle.
    new long-range missile (ABM?)
    new small missile (Anti-Drone)

    like Pantsir-SA one version of the vehicle will "only" have missiles, but double the current amount.


    I guess we can bury that propaganda BS that Pantsir somehow "failed" in Syria.
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    LMFS

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  LMFS on Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:24 am

    How many missiles can a Pantsir guide simultaneously? I see the number of them available at the launcher is very big, but what about the capacity to simultaneously intercept targets?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:04 am

    Hole wrote:Lets recapitulate.

    new Pantsir-SM will be on armored truck or tracked vehicle.
    new long-range missile (ABM?)
    new small missile (Anti-Drone)

    like Pantsir-SA one version of the vehicle will "only" have missiles, but double the current amount.

    that's similar setup to Buk-M3 BTW

    1vcomand post + 1 radar + 1 radar launcher (6 issiles) + launcher (12 missiles).


    [qute="hole"]I guess we can bury that propaganda BS that Pantsir somehow "failed" in Syria.[/quote]

    yu underestimate free media creativity: Panstir was modernized because its failure in Syria lol1 lol1 lol1  (you know Russians dont knwo notions of lifecycle, planned upgrades and so on)




    LMFS wrote:How many missiles can a Pantsir guide simultaneously? I see the number of them available at the launcher is very big, but what about the capacity to simultaneously intercept targets?


    S1 -4 2- optical 2- radar,

    SM is to beimproved how much... dunno dunno dunno


    but Buk evolution AFAIK it looked like: Buk-1 -> 4- (buk-2?Buk-1m? ) 12-> 22 (Buk-2M) ->36 for BUK-M3...
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:20 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    BTW NATO have `round 7000 fighters/bombers  Russia has by order of magnitude less. So Russian VKS must take most ofdefenc ewieght on thei shoulders.
     

    That vast majority of them would be grounded in a hot Themonuclear war. The only exception would be the strategic platforms.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:29 am

    Hole wrote:Lets recapitulate.

    new Pantsir-SM will be on armored truck or tracked vehicle.
    new long-range missile (ABM?)
    new small missile (Anti-Drone)

    like Pantsir-SA one version of the vehicle will "only" have missiles, but double the current amount.


    I guess we can bury that propaganda BS that Pantsir somehow "failed" in Syria.

    Honestly the small missiles would be dedicated for PGM's, people overestimate the capability of swarm drones, ECM platforms integrated in IAD could mop them up easier then any missile could. People seem to forget that one of the most advanced drones ever created, the RQ-170 (could easily be an order of magnitude more sophisticated than any swarm drone), was defeated by the export equivalent of the Soviet-era created ECM platform, Autobaza, over the skies of Iran.
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    Hole

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Hole on Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:45 am

    True.

    But it´s always better to have options. ECM + Pantsir + 2S38 + tactical version of Peresvet. Poor little drones.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:34 am

    new Pantsir-SM will be on armored truck or tracked vehicle.

    For the Aerospace Defence forces (ie Air Force and Space Defence forces) they will likely use these trucks, and also for the Navy.... but the Army will likely mount them on all of their vehicle families.... ie Armata, Kurganets, Boomerang, and Typhoon. And likely the DT-30 articulated truck and trailer system for arctic regions.

    new Pantsir-SM will be on armored truck or tracked vehicle.
    new long-range missile (ABM?)
    new small missile (Anti-Drone)

    like Pantsir-SA one version of the vehicle will "only" have missiles, but double the current amount.

    Don't forget to add the potential for a Pantsir launched drone that could be used for target practise in peace time, and for finding targets and assessing the effectiveness of an attack... it could even be a suicide drone that can attack ground or air targets when it runs out of juice...

    How many missiles can a Pantsir guide simultaneously? I see the number of them available at the launcher is very big, but what about the capacity to simultaneously intercept targets?

    Well that is now up for question... the old model could guided two missiles at each target and had four guidance channels in total... three radar and one optical with two missiles for each target so 8 missiles in the air against the four targets.

    But the new system has an AESA radar which suggests potentially the ability to track more than 3 targets and to guide more than 8 missiles... (note the optically tracked targets still had their missiles guided using radio commands from the radar, but not anything you could easily jam or spoof or detect from a great distance).

    S1 -4 2- optical 2- radar,

    AFAIK it is 3 radar and 1 optical tracking for targets... with two missiles per target guided by radio command from the tracking radar.

    Honestly the small missiles would be dedicated for PGM's, people overestimate the capability of swarm drones, ECM platforms integrated in IAD could mop them up easier then any missile could. People seem to forget that one of the most advanced drones ever created, the RQ-170 (could easily be an order of magnitude more sophisticated than any swarm drone), was defeated by the export equivalent of the Soviet-era created ECM platform, Autobaza, over the skies of Iran.

    Small and cheap drones by definition wont be smart drones, and small simple drones will be relatively fragile... I rather suspect air burst 57mm rounds would be the most efficient medicine most of the time with Pantsir knocking down any launch platforms that come within range (tiny drones wont be very fast and wont be able to fly very far so kill them before they are launched...)

    With new AESA radars for the Pantsir, not only will it be able to detect smaller targets at much greater ranges, but it should be able to guide a lot more missiles.

    I would expect the radar vehicle would be able to track maybe 16 targets and guide 32 missiles to those targets... but obviously most of those missiles will come from the missile carrier with 24 missiles rather than the radar vehicle that only has 12 missiles.

    A while back there was a mockup/model of a Hermes launcher that looked like a Grad launcher... it even had 40 launch tubes on the back... and AFAIK the design of the Hermes was unified with the design of the Pantsir missile... the only difference is that Hermes is an anti ground target missile with terminal homing with various options, while Pantsir is a cheap command guided surface to air missile...

    Having an AESA radar would mean a vehicle with 40 ready to launch missiles might be useful... especially if loaded with the quad missile packs... 160 missiles per vehicle...

    Note the very high speed of these missiles means the engagement time is generally very short so while 32 guided missiles at one time per radar vehicle does not sound super amazing... it could probably handle an enormous number of targets per minute because the engagement time for targets at 10km will be about 12 seconds or so....
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    Hole

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Hole on Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:27 pm


    Arctic version. News when it will deployed?


    Hermes for the navy. Will be used from the Pantsir-M mount. Ground forces could use it the same way.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:14 am

    So based on that image the navy ship borne model uses the main radar of the ship for search functions with contributions from satellite links and drone information, while the launcher itself has a tracking radar and EO for guidance.

    BTW I reread my comments above and would mention that the navy Pantsir will likely come in at least three types... they have said there is are two ship based versions where one is an upgrade for existing vessel types and the other is designed for new ships and is more "stealthy".

    I suspect this info page, shown by Hole above shows the stealthy model without search radars that uses the main radars of the ship for the search function, and just a tracking radar and EO system.

    The other pantsir system used by the navy will likely be the same as the one shown above with the radar gun/missile system and the missile system both on trucks for land based use to protect ports and navy airfields and other facilities.

    Interesting that the arctic model (likely used by the Army) seems to have two lots of 9 ready to fire missiles on it. Nice.
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    Hole

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Hole on Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:46 am

    But no guns.


    It seems the Pantsir-SA is used more as a "medium-range" air defence system in the High North with the Tor-M2DT for point defence.
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    medo

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:05 pm

    Yes, Pantsir-SA doesn't have guns, but 6 more missiles. It have 18 missiles instead of 12.

    Interesting is, that we have to different arctic pantsirs with the same designation Pantsir-SA.



    Pantsir-SA based on Kamaz truck for air defense of arctic bases. It is standard Pantsir-S1 modified to operate in Arctic climatic zone.




    Pantsir-SA based on DT-30P tracked vehicle for arctic brigades. We will see, if this Pantsir-SA will have the role of medium range SAM in brigade formation or will be SHORAD the same as Tor-M2DT
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:56 pm

    Hole wrote:But no guns.

    It seems the Pantsir-SA is used more as a "medium-range" air defence system in the High North with the Tor-M2DT for point defence.

    apparently they dont expect small helos or APCs anywhere near. The number of missiles has to correspond to potential threats in this theater. I'd also expect longer range missiles in Arctic will be more than helpful.

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