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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:44 am

    xeno wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Not that it is of any significance, but what makes you conclude that the radar/radars depicted are PESA?
    I don't believe Russia will have luxury to equip them with AESA from points of view of finance and technology(T/R unit mass production) when they enter service in 2016. A typical example is Vityaz SAM system, which is much more expensive and important than Pantsir and much less regarding to quantity. It will enter service around 2016 as well and be equiped with PESA. Russia cannot afford Vityaz with AESA, how can they afford Pantsir-SM with AESA in 2016, even we supose Pantsir-SM's AESA may be  cheaper than that of Vityaz?
    Secondly the radar in that video doesn't look like AESA to me although I am not a radar expert...
    This may come as a surprise to a majority of the netizens, but from images or other forms of information about a radar, sometime it is possible to categorically identify its type, sometimes it is possible to make an assertion about its type with only a degree of probability, and sometimes no identification of its type is possible.

    I have not made an assertion about the type of the radar, but irrespective of whatever type this radar may turn out to be, virtually none of your assertions constitute valid reasoning, and the majority of them are “Not Even Wrong” if I may quote Peter Woit’s book title. To explain why virtually none of those constitute valid reasoning would require too much “time” and would be impracticable, but I will include some images at the bottom of this post as food for thought.

    As for myself, one of the first things that I want to find out is to see if the two “antennas” (It’s too hard to categorically say from the images if they are antennas?) at the top corners of the fire-control radar are missile gathering antennas, lobe nulling antennas, or something else. The answer to this question can have an impact on determining, with some probability, if the radar in question is an AESA, a PESA, or something else.

    A minor point regarding spelling/transliteration, Pantsir’, Pantsir’-SM, etc are the correct transliterations, as the “ь” (мягкий знак, myagkij znak) at the end of “панцирь” transliterates into an apostrophe.

    Here is a variant of Pantsir'-S with a different fire-control radar.
    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 18 QSCjijg

    Here is an AESA on a Tor-M2E. The 2 antennas at the top corners are missile gathering antennas.
    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 18 XunJTlc
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:49 am

    Thought Tor-M2 has PESA?

    Anyways PESA does not mean bad.
    And AESA does not mean good.

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    Post  Viktor on Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:53 am

    Interesting. We knew that modernized version will have more engagement range/altitude and more missiles.

    No guns is surprising but than again this is 40km range weapon and 4km guns are not needed as Pancir-S1/Tunguska/ZSU-23 will have them. It is interesting that each of Pancir-SM

    vehicles does not have search radar like on Pancir-S1 but the important thing is that every vehicle has its shooting radar. Such doctrine is more suitable to Russians than to other countries

    as Russians add numerous search radars covering all frequencies and altitudes to each regiment/brigade/integral division etc.





    Pancir-S1 missiles (note that all three are different in diameter) now what I find EXTREMELY INTERESTING about these two pictures is this:

    - The missile to the right (57E6-E) - export missile for export Pancir-S1

    - The missile to the left (95YA6) - missile for Russian Pancir-S1

    - And surprise surprise - missile in the middle -> HERMES <-  Very Happy  russia 

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 18 LGkIe3w

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 18 1vFVsTF
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:02 am

    Viktor wrote:Interesting. We knew that modernized version will have more engagement range/altitude and more missiles.

    No guns is surprising but than again this is 40km range weapon and 4km guns are not needed as Pancir-S1/Tunguska/ZSU-23 will have them. It is interesting that each of Pancir-SM

    vehicles does not have search radar like on Pancir-S1 but the important thing is that every vehicle has its shooting radar. Such doctrine is more suitable to Russians than to other countries

    as Russians add numerous search radars covering all frequencies and altitudes to each regiment/brigade/integral division etc.





    Pancir-S1 missiles (note that all three are different in diameter) now what I find EXTREMELY INTERESTING about these two pictures is this:

    - The missile to the right (57E6-E) - export missile for export Pancir-S1

    - The missile to the left (95YA6) - missile for Russian Pancir-S1

    - And surprise surprise - missile in the middle -> HERMES <-  Very Happy  russia 

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 18 LGkIe3w

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 18 1vFVsTF

    Do you have a link to the video?
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:06 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Maybe I'm late to the party, seems like that might actually be in the works, starting around 2:58 of the video there seems to be a new Pantsir system with 24 launch tubes:


    I the same video at 5:29, it seems they are talking about a bicaliber shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile of 10 km range. Anybody with the language skill can shed some more light on this part of the video?

    Can a Russian speaker say what they are saying in the video at 5:29 about this?
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    Post  xeno on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:10 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Here is an AESA on a Tor-M2E. The 2 antennas at the top corners are missile gathering antennas.
    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 18 XunJTlc
    Are you sure it is an AESA? Probably you are wrong...
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    Post  Austin on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:35 am

    Good find Viktor , The Russian SAM does have Fatter Booster ....which would give them longer range and higher kill energy.

    Pantsir-SM would most likely have an AESA module replacing the current AESA.

    The Tor-2MU and all modern variant of Tor-2 have PESA radar
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    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:37 am

    Nice! 24 missiles for Pantsir-SM, and it looks like more can be fitted especially if its based on tracked chassis.
    Maybe the radar in the middle can be removed, replaced with flat AESA that can fold down at the top. The freed space can be used to double missile numbers or just make it more narrower. Maybe they can put a thin shell around the missiles too, so it will resemble coalition turret w/out the huge gun. With Hermes, they can be even used to kill tanks.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:55 am

    Some guy post these from that video on MP.
    Pantsir-SM with hyper-sonic missiles and 40km range will be ridiculously awesome.
    The only thing, which is not good enough, is still PESA...

    If they put an AESA radar on it it would be a first generation AESA and its performance would not be as impressive as some might think.

    It would also be very very expensive, yet in practical terms not off a huge performance increase over PESA.

    In even only 5 years time mass production of AESA modules might be mature and experience with AESA radars might make them very capable... that is the time you put all Russian deployed Pantsir into refit and upgrade the radar to a more capable and much more affordable AESA.

    When AESA elements cost $50-$100 each making an AESA radar with 2-3 thousand suddenly becomes rather expensive... when we are just talking about the antenna array and not the rest of the radar too.

    In 5 years time when they cost a dollar each and you are producing 500,000 a day with maybe 150 rejects... that is when you start introducing AESA radars on everything.

    [quote]I the same video at 5:29, it seems they are talking about a bicaliber shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile of 10 km range. Anybody with the language skill can shed some more light on this part of the video?[/qutoe]

    Sorry, I don't speak or read Russian but they don't mention Verba do they?

    The Russian army immediately needs the tracked pantsir to be delivered to replace the aging tunguskas. The morphei and torM2 need a cheaper alternative.

    The electronics the come with the systems means if they had AESA they wouldn't be able to afford to replace the Osa and Shilka still in service let alone the Tunguskas... most of which are still very capable systems.

    No more guns on Pantsir-SM? What does these images indicate, that the new Pantsir will operate in two vehicle teams ("mass firepower" vehicle with 24 missiles, radar vehicle with 12 misiles) totaling 36 ready to fire missiles, or those are two different variants?

    This is just speculation on my part, but there could be two reasons... this could be the 40km range models which means cannon is a little redundant... with the other reason being a shift in calibre to 45 or 57 mm calibre with laser guided shells so they will have a separate vehicle for the gun platform which is not shown...

    A typical example is Vityaz SAM system, which is much more expensive and important than Pantsir and much less regarding to quantity. It will enter service around 2016 as well and be equiped with PESA. Russia cannot afford Vityaz with AESA, how can they afford Pantsir-SM with AESA in 2016, even we supose Pantsir-SM's AESA may be cheaper than that of Vityaz?

    Both systems would be a lot more expensive with AESA radars... it makes sense to give them PESAs which is a mature technology and still very capable and add AESAs later when it is cheaper.

    It is a bit like in the 1980s going out and buying an expensive laser disc player for $10 thousand dollars... it will be an early example of the technology and not only will later models be much better but also much more affordable.

    Why spend $2000 on a CD writer when you can use a Video Tape Recorder for much less... wait till DVD comes out and is affordable.


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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:02 am

    BTW the first AESAs are likely on the Mig-35, Armata MBT, and PAK FA, and also on Poliment (Naval radar).

    Once these are in production the AESA modules will have to be mass produced to meet the needs of the military.

    By 2020 the modules will be cheap to produce and almost every application for radar will likely use AESA modules.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:47 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Interesting. We knew that modernized version will have more engagement range/altitude and more missiles.

    No guns is surprising but than again this is 40km range weapon and 4km guns are not needed as Pancir-S1/Tunguska/ZSU-23 will have them. It is interesting that each of Pancir-SM

    vehicles does not have search radar like on Pancir-S1 but the important thing is that every vehicle has its shooting radar. Such doctrine is more suitable to Russians than to other countries

    as Russians add numerous search radars covering all frequencies and altitudes to each regiment/brigade/integral division etc.





    Pancir-S1 missiles (note that all three are different in diameter) now what I find EXTREMELY INTERESTING about these two pictures is this:

    - The missile to the right (57E6-E) - export missile for export Pancir-S1

    - The missile to the left (95YA6) - missile for Russian Pancir-S1

    - And surprise surprise - missile in the middle -> HERMES <-  Very Happy  russia 

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 18 LGkIe3w

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 18 1vFVsTF

    Do you have a link to the video?

    Viktor,

    Doesn't it look like that the missile to the right is the one with the bigger booster?
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:29 am

    Surprised no one mentioned that the Pantsir-SM is based on the Typhoon vehicle (8x8 version).
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:36 am

    Yeah I am curious why. Makes the vehicle heavier and more expensive, though I guess armor helps with close misses.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:45 am

    Austin wrote:The Tor-2MU and all modern variant of Tor-2 have PESA radar

    Of course, I know that the "PESA" view of this matter has a heavy presence on the web, but why are you saying that it is a PESA?

    Based on the external shape of, let's say, Tor-M1, there is little that can lead into any categorical assertions about whether its radar is an AESA, a PESA, or something else. The little evidence there is points to it not being a PESA.

    However, there is a clip on the YouTube, with good graphics of the radar, that clearly indicates that it is either an AESA or something more advanced than an AESA. I have, of course, seen this clip but can't find it now. It would be good if someone can find it.

    Again, as I have noted on a number of occasions, it is not significant, at all, if the radar is AESA, PESA, or something else; what is significant is to attain and promote the reality!
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    Post  Zivo on Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:52 am

    HERMES is huge.  Shocked 

    I want to see 16 of them on a Ka-52.
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    Post  medo on Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:53 am

    It seems Pantsir-SM is made as medium range SAM and not as SHORAD, so I assume they will both be in production. Medium range SAM doesn't need search radar on every TELAR as SHORAD and its radars are bigger to work with longer range missiles. Radars from Pantsir-S1 have too short range to support 40 km range missiles, so Pantsir-SM will have new radars., but big battery radar have enough range to work with both, so a battery could be a mix of both Pantsir-S1 and Pantsir-SM.

    In my opinion, in Russian VKO units S-350 will work mostly with long range 9M96 missiles to replace older S-300 and Pantsir-SM will work as medium range SAM between S-350 and Pantsir-S1 / Morphei, who are there as last protection for long range SAMs. After all, Pantsir-SM will have more missiles on launchers than Buk-M2/M3 in ground forces PVO, but in concept is very similar.

    About new MANPAD on video, I could only say this is something new from KBP, because KBP before didn't produce MANPADs, they were produced in KBM Kolomna. Considering, that KBP have a lot of experiences with laser guidance, this new MANPAD could be as well laser guided as RBS-70 or Starstreak, which could allow range of 10 km.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    No more guns on Pantsir-SM? What does these images indicate, that the new Pantsir will operate in two vehicle teams ("mass firepower" vehicle with 24 missiles, radar vehicle with 12 misiles) totaling 36 ready to fire missiles, or those are two different variants?

    This is just speculation on my part, but there could be two reasons... this could be the 40km range models which means cannon is a little redundant... with the other reason being a shift in calibre to 45 or 57 mm calibre with laser guided shells so they will have a separate vehicle for the gun platform which is not shown...

    This is what I was thinking, I could see a truck platform which could hold a significant amount of 57mm shells, the 40km missiles could be dedicated for defeating one threat while the 57mm gun truck platform could be dedicated for defeating another. I think the 57mm gun should be used for defeating Rotary aircraft, drones, and the occasional ground threats trying to sabotage the Pantsir (insurgents), while the 40km missiles should be dedicated to destroying incoming missile threats.
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    Post  medo on Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:47 pm

    Pantsir-SM is medium range SAM from KBP, so it doesn't need guns as Pantsir-S1 SHORAD have. I think they will both work together as protecting cluster for big SAMs as S-500, S-400 and S-350.
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    Post  Viktor on Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:48 pm

    medo wrote:Pantsir-SM is medium range SAM from KBP, so it doesn't need guns as Pantsir-S1 SHORAD have. I think they will both work together as protecting cluster for big SAMs as S-500, S-400 and S-350.

    Correct. Russia will still have Pancir-S1 with guns but as a lower tier SAM system.

    When you see one battery of Pancir-S1 consist of 6 vehicles. If we apply same analogy to Pancir-SM we will have:

    1 x Pancir-SM (with search radar) = 12 missiles
    5 x Pancir-SM (with only shooting radar) = 5 x 24 missiles = 120 missiles
    -------------------------------------
    1 battery = 132 missiles

    Now if we count all the missiles of each battery (only one) in PVO tier we have S-400 // S-300 Favorit // S-350E // Pancir-SM // Pancir-S1 // Tunguska // Igla // Morfei and

    you have aprox 400 missiles in line ready to fire  Very Happy 

    So new Pancir-SM in comparison with Pancir-S1:

    - more missiles
    - longer ranged missiles (in range and altitude)
    - faster missiles
    - more guidance channels (this makes sense)


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    Post  Zivo on Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:11 pm

    Viktor wrote:

    [...] Pancir-S1 missiles (note that all three are different in diameter) now what I find EXTREMELY INTERESTING about these two pictures is this:

    - The missile to the right (57E6-E) - export missile for export Pancir-S1

    - The missile to the left (95YA6) - missile for Russian Pancir-S1

    - And surprise surprise - missile in the middle -> HERMES <-  Very Happy  russia 

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 18 LGkIe3w

    The grey booster stage on the right looks wider and taller. It also has a smaller payload.

    Wouldn't that missile be faster and have more range based on those aspects alone?
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    Post  mack8 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:45 pm

    Few more screenshots here:
    http://russianarms.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1915

    Are you sure the third missile is the export version? It does looks like a quite alot smaller missile riding a fatter, taller booster.
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    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:18 am

    mack8 wrote:Few more screenshots here:
    http://russianarms.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1915

    Are you sure the third missile is the export version? It does looks like a quite alot smaller missile riding a fatter, taller booster.

    Check out at 2:11 - thats the third one from the picture

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdGZ5y8aEyI

    Russian version has larger missile on top of the booster which could point toward sustainer engine giving 95YA6 superior pperformance at the terminal phase so it makes a lot of sense.
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    Post  zino on Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:47 am

    mack8 wrote:Few more screenshots here:
    http://russianarms.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1915

    Are you sure the third missile is the export version? It does looks like a quite alot smaller missile riding a fatter, taller booster.

    AFAIK 95YA6 is a target missle (info from MAKS thread), domestic weapon is 23YA6
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    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:15 am

    zino wrote:
    mack8 wrote:Few more screenshots here:
    http://russianarms.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1915

    Are you sure the third missile is the export version? It does looks like a quite alot smaller missile riding a fatter, taller booster.

    AFAIK 95YA6 is a target missle (info from MAKS thread), domestic weapon is 23YA6

    95Ya6-2M is a target missile.

    95Ya6 is missile itself (Russian one)

    57E6-E is a export missile - there where talks about two types (minor differences) of export version

    as far as I know thats it.

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    Post  zino on Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:16 am

    Viktor wrote:
    zino wrote:
    mack8 wrote:Few more screenshots here:
    http://russianarms.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1915

    Are you sure the third missile is the export version? It does looks like a quite alot smaller missile riding a fatter, taller booster.

    AFAIK 95YA6 is a target missle (info from MAKS thread), domestic weapon is 23YA6

    95Ya6-2M is a target missile.

    95Ya6 is missile itself (Russian one)

    57E6-E is a export missile - there where talks about two types (minor differences) of export version  

    as far as I know thats it.


    Indeed it is. My bad, I wasn't up to date.

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