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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:45 am

    Or with my cynical hat on... which I will call Vlad the Cynical Hat (No offense meant Smile )

    I might say that production of Thermal sights is not at a rate yet that could equip new vehicles and upgrade existing vehicles and equip export vehicles so there will be no new vehicles made and perhaps later on we will be told that 100 tanks will be upgraded per year for the next 2 years and then they will ramp it up to 500 per year plus 100 new tanks and then by 2015 it will be 500 tanks per year getting upgrades and 250 new tanks and it will stay at that till they have enough new and upgraded tanks. (ie about 2,000 and about 6,000 respectively).

    The problem is that there is no point in upgrading the tanks till you have decided on the upgrade for the T-90, which was cancelled.
    This means that any upgrade of older models will be to the standard they have now... which means they have what they call an unsatisfactory tank and they are spending money upgrading obsolete to unsatisfactory!!!
    Even worse all this time the factory is sitting idle costing money in power and heating and even just keeping the place secure from theft and vandals...
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    Serbia Forever 2

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    Russian army will spend 300 billion rubles on communications

    Post  Serbia Forever 2 on Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:11 am

    The Russian army is to spend 300 billion rubles ($10 billion) in a drive to digitize its communications systems by 2012, the chief of the Russian General Staff Nikolai Makarov said on Tuesday.

    "It is necessary to have a technical base for resolving military tasks. It is communication that must be turned digital. We are currently working on it. We should resolve these tasks by 2012," Gen. Makarov said.

    One of the General Staff's main projects is a new tactical infantry control system.

    "A large sum of money, about 300 billion rubles ($10 billion) has been allocated to this," Makarov said, adding that the army's digital communication program is part of the Defense Ministry's draft arms procurement program up until 2020.

    MOSCOW, December 14 (RIA Novosti)


    Good to see the Russian army improving its communications, always seemed to be a weaker part of the Russiam militaty.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:56 am

    Not just the Russian forces.

    I remember reading reports from Desert Storm from British soldiers complaining that their radios were from the early 1970s and were rubbish.

    I agree, this is good news.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Russia's armed forces to spend $10 bln to go digital by 2012 - General Staff Chief

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:12 am

    Russia's armed forces to spend $10 bln to go digital by 2012 - General Staff Chief

    RIA Novosti

    11:25 14/12/2010 MOSCOW, December 14 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian armed forces are to spend $10 billion on new digital communications by 2012, the chief of the Russian General Staff said on Tuesday.

    "It is necessary to have a technical base for resolving military tasks. It is communication that must be turned digital. We are currently working on it. We should resolve these tasks by 2012," Gen. Makarov said.

    One of the General Staff's main projects is a new tactical control system.

    "A large sum of money, about 300 billion rubles ($10 billion) has been allocated to this," Makarov said, adding that the armed forces digital communication program is part of the Defense Ministry's draft arms procurement program up until 2020.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-101214-rianovosti02.htm
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

    Modern digital communications will enable much higher bandwidths and much higher data rates for Russian military C4IR equipment.

    This will likely make communications much much better but also lead to reduced radio device size as well.
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    medo

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  medo on Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:46 pm

    Now is 2011 and as I know money and Gosoboronzakaz for this year are accepted and signed. Anything known how many and what type of tanks and other armored vehicles Russian army will get this year? Anything more known if project of BMPT will go on and if they will be bought for army?
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    GarryB

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    BMPT Terminator

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:50 am

    As far As I know the BMPT has been rejected by the customer (Russian Army) and so because it is a developed product I would expect minor further development and a lot of testing and then an export push to try to get foreign funding.

    It could find a niche market for roles it wasn't designed for... in peace keeping operations it has the armament of a modern IFV but the armour of a tank so for peacekeeping operations or peacemaking operations it might be useful INSTEAD of a tank.

    Obviously it would not be ideal as a replacement for an IFV because it doesn't carry troops.

    The use of the vehicle instead of a tank in my opinion would warrant a replacement of the armament to the BMP-3M armament or perhaps even a 100mm rifled gun and a 57mm gun in place of the 30mm cannon. With a decent high velocity armour piercing 57mm round the only uses for the 100mm tube launched missiles would be enemy tanks. Even Helos could be engaged with laser guided 57mm shells probably to longer range than tube launched ATGMs can reach... especially if the gun is elevated and the round takes a lofted trajectory diving down on the target helo for speed... the max ballistic range of the 57mm round is something like 12km so 8-10km range should be reasonable for moving targets like helos.

    According to the title of this thread they wont get any tanks this year, though BTR-82s might start entering service. I haven't heard anything that suggests otherwise.

    BTW nice vid Austin Smile It is nice to see credit given where it is due. Further upgrades with new comms and battle management systems and the new turret rear autoloader should make it even better and safer for the crews.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:06 am

    Interview with Ground Forces Chief

    http://www.redstar.ru/2011/02/22_02/2_02.html

    - What are the features of state defense contracts this year in respect of equipping the Army? What modern armaments arrive in units and Army in 2011-2012?

    The main feature of the state defense order this year is to move from the repair and modernization of the fleet AMSE to purchase only new, modern designs for the complete equipping of formations and military units of ground forces.

    Primarily provided to purchase advanced digital communications and automated control systems, such as ACS antiaircraft missile brigade (mixed group), Air Defense Forces "Polana D4M1", a new integrated station automation tactical control of army air defense, and others.

    In addition, the air defense troops the Army will have upgraded the S-300V4, Buk-M2 and Buk-M3, anti-aircraft missile systems, short-range Tor-M2U (M), portable anti-aircraft missile complexes "Igla-S" and "Willow".

    Extend equipment and units of missile troops and artillery operational-tactical missile Iskander-M ", the new multiple launch rocket systems, self-propelled guns" Host "and" Nona-SVK ", anti-tank missile system Chrysanthemum-S and guns" Octopus -SD.

    From armored vehicles provided procurement of armored personnel carriers BTR-new modification 82a, modern tank recovery vehicle BREM-K BTR-80 BREM-L based on the BMP-3, special armored vehicles carrying capacity up to 2,5 tons (Iveco, "Tiger," "Wolf"), as well as new truck KAMAZ family Mustang.

    Thus, the CBR defense troops will receive heavy flamethrower system TOS-1A rocket infantry flame-throwers increased range and power of thermobaric gear RPO PDM-A and aerial radiation survey complexes WRC.

    A corps of engineers - the newest station complex purification and desalination of water for road base chassis KAMAZ (SD-10 / 5), universal travel machine (UDM) and other effective means of engineering armament.

    All these purchases will contribute greatly to improving the combat capabilities of units and formations of ground forces. So we will change and evolve, so that in modern conditions play a crucial role in ensuring Russia's military security.

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:16 am

    The Willow is the 'Verba" missile.

    Any idea what these systems are ?

    self-propelled guns" Host "and" Nona-SVK ", anti-tank missile system Chrysanthemum-S and guns" Octopus -SD.
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:47 am

    The Khrizantema (Chrysanthemum-S) or AT-15 if you like NATO designations.

    The Nona-SVK.

    The Octopus-SD (known as the Sprut.)

    No idea what the "Host" is.

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:51 am

    Found few of my answers

    SPG Host ---> Did not find yet
    Nona-SVK --->http://warfare.ru/?linkid=1563&catid=240
    anti-tank missile system Chrysanthemum-S ---> http://warfare.ru/?linkid=1580&catid=261
    Octopus-SD ---> http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product2379.html

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:52 am

    Oh I was also researching and found the answer , just as you did , Thanks

    Even I could not find what Host is , the problem is google translation does not do much justice .....must study russian language.

    Garry I hope things are fine at your end , I saw on TV there was a major earthquake at Christchurch NZ.
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    Vladimir79

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    Russia's ground forces weaponry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:34 am

    IronsightSniper wrote:

    No idea what the "Host" is.

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%A134
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    GarryB

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    This is well worth a read in my opinion.

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:16 am

    This is well worth a read in my opinion.


    Postnikov on the Army and OPK (Part I)

    Ground Troops CINC, General-Colonel Aleksandr Postnikov really stirred up the hornet’s nest on Tuesday.  
    Russia’s defense sector – its OPK or oboronki – feeling offended recently, is abuzz about his comments.  

    Postnikov told a session of the Federation Council’s Defense and Security Committee:
    “Those models of weapons that industry produces, including armor, artillery and infantry weapons, don’t correspond to NATO’s or even China’s models in their characteristics.”
    The military hadn’t criticized the domestic OPK’s heavy armor and artillery systems to this point.
    Insulting Russian tanks is the particular point here.  According to Newsru.com, Postnikov apparently called the much-praised, newest T-90 in actuality just the 17th modification of the Soviet T-72.  And, at the current cost of 118 million rubles per tank, he suggested:
    “It would be simpler for us to buy three ‘Leopards’ [German tanks] for this money.”

    Newsru.com counters that Rosoboroneksport is proud of the T-90, its sales, and continued interest abroad, but admits it is weak against third generation ATGMs, modern sub-munitions, and “top attack” weapons.  
    The news outlet also notes that the Russian Defense Ministry has eschewed procurement of the T-95 and BMPT.

    In its editorial entitled “Import Generals,” Vedomosti takes Postnikov to task, saying it’s not sure whether he means new or used Leopards, but the German tanks probably come in at $7.5 million a piece at least, against the T-90 at $4 million [i.e. only part of one Leopard for 118 million rubles].  And, says Vedomosti, comparing Russian tanks to Chinese ones is lamer still on Postnikov’s part.

    According to the business daily, these criticisms of Russian armaments usually come with calls to buy the same systems abroad.  But the 2008 war with Georgia showed Russia’s deficiencies lay in soldier systems, comms, recce, C2, and some types of infantry weapons rather than in armor.  When Russia doesn’t make something like Mistral or it has inferior technology like UAVs, it’s understandable to buy foreign, but when it’s something like armor, it raises a lot of issues, according to Vedomosti.  Uralvagonzavod certainly needs tank orders.  The idea of large-scale foreign purchases is utopian, says Mikhail Barabanov.  The paper believes thoughts of buying Leopard tanks and Mistral mean Russia’s generalitet has plans beyond local wars.

    BFM.ru says Postnikov put the Ground Troops’ modern arms and equipment at only 12 percent of its inventory at present with, again, the goal of 70 percent in 2020.  At the end of this year, the army will get its first brigade complement of the newest automated C2 (ASU) system [i.e. presumably YeSU TZ]:
     “In November of this year, we plan to conduct research on the newest  ASU and hand down our verdict.”

    According to BFM.ru, he said NATO and China already have analogous systems:

     “But for us it is still the future.”

    Nezavisimaya gazeta focused on Postnikov’s comments on Ground Troops brigades.  He said he now has 70, but plans for 109 by 2020, including “future type” brigades:
    “There will be 42 brigades of the future type, in all there will be 47 military formations of the future type, including military bases abroad which will be built on the same principle.”

    The Glavkom didn’t say how the new brigades will be different from the old.

    Parsing what he’s talking about is a little tough.  At the end of 2008, the army talked about having 39 combined arms, 21 missile and artillery, 12 signal, 7 air defense, and 2 EW brigades for a total of 81, rather than Postnikov’s current 70.  One might guess a dozen arms storage bases in Siberia and the Far East could be fleshed out into maneuver brigades.  But where does the manpower come from?  Maybe some of the 70,000 officers cut and now being returned to the ranks by Defense Minister Serdyukov.

    Postnikov elaborated some on heavy, medium, and light brigades.  Heavy will have tanks and tracked armor.  

    NG concludes there won’t be a new tank.  Tanks in storage will get new electronics and Arena active defense systems.  According to Postnikov, medium brigades will get [among other things?]  the Bumerang amphibious BTR now in development.  This, says NG, is the first time anyone’s heard Bumerang.  But if it isn’t successfully developed or produced in sufficient numbers by 2020, the army will just buy armored vehicles abroad since there’s already ample precedent for this.

    Light brigades will have vehicles like the Tigr or the Italian LMV (Lynx), licensed production of which could begin in Russia this year.  One special Arctic brigade will be created at Pechenga.

    Several media outlets quoted Postnikov to the effect that there’s no plan to change 1-year conscription, but he noted:
    “In the transition to one year military service, military men received only a headache.”
    There’s lots more reaction to Postnikov’s statements, but it’s too much for one day.

    http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/postnikov-on-the-army-and-opk-part-i/

    I think future parts of this will make interesting reading too.I definitely agree that the problems the Russian Army faces today would not be solved with Leopards... or Leclercs for that matter.

    The purpose of the T-90 upgrade is to change the basic design to minimise the effects of its main deficiencies to a single unified standard that can be applied to existing T-90s and T-72BMs in reasonable conditions and then get them into service as a standard tank with good protection and fire power but also good optics and C2.
    Having one engine type and one Comms system etc etc will optimise purchasing, and also simplify training and maintainence with spares pools made smaller in range of types of components kept on hand and of course support training simplified as well.
    As mentioned in the article above... the Georgian conflict revealed problems with comms, recon, command and control, and in the case of MANPADS IFF.
    Better communications and C2 should help deal with the IFF problem with aircraft... and of course the problem goes both ways in the issue of identifying ground targets for the aircraft as well as part of the issue with recon.
    Buying Leopards would not solve any of this.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:50 pm

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    GarryB

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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:55 am

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    GarryB

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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:34 am

    Postnikov elaborated some on heavy, medium, and light brigades.  Heavy will have tanks and tracked armor.  NG concludes
    there won’t be a new tank.  Tanks in storage will get new electronics
    and Arena active defense systems.
     According to Postnikov, medium
    brigades will get [among other things?] the Bumerang amphibious BTR now
    in development.  This, says NG, is the first time anyone’s
    heard Bumerang.  But if it isn’t successfully developed or produced in
    sufficient numbers by 2020, the army will just buy armored vehicles
    abroad since there’s already ample precedent for this.

    Source: http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/postnikov-on-the-army-and-opk-part-i/

    And the Boomerang amphibious BTR is likely what I have been calling Gilza. It is interesting they mention it is amphibious.
    I have often wondered why they didn't design new vehicles with slat type armour fitted as standard, because if you include its design into the vehicle you could probably add floatation modules and external storage modules to it that might allow heavier armour and better storage options in a way that doesn't ruin the basic design by inhibiting the use of side or rear doors or viewing ports or effect the use of the main weapons/turret.

    Hopefully by the time this vehicle is ready it will have NERA fitted as standard.

    Interesting that the Boomerang vehicle is described as a BTR like vehicle but will be put into medium brigades... medium brigades are supposed to have vehicles with BMP level protection... so we are talking 20-25 ton weight class. It is hard to imagine how they will keep that sort of weight class vehicle amphibious...
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:56 am

    OmPA "Radio Plant named after A. Popov, "began production IDTS

    Omsk Production Association named after AS Radiozavod Popov, "began production of new digital IP telecommunications transmission systems and information security IDTS (Intellectual Defense Telecommunication System). The system is designed to create info-communications transport medium for rapid deployment specialized units of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the CSTO.

    The organizing principle IDTS - technology "embedded systems". Development of a high intellectual platform of new generation. IDTS system provides reliable communication at a distance of 200 km with a capacity of up to 155 Mbps. IDTS able to solve various problems, to simulate an unexpected enemy tactics and configuration information of the transport medium, especially in problematic regions.

    IDTS system developed as part of the problem posed by the President of Russia on the digitalization of communication systems of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the unification of applied solutions power structures of the Russian Federation.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:37 am

    For those not totally familiar with computer terminology 155 Mbps is a data rate... the speed at which data can be sent.
    In comparison dial up internet is generally 56kbps... the letters translate into kilo(thousand) bit(binary digit) per second, so a 56 kbps modem can transmit and receive data at 56,000 binary digits per second, or 56,000 1s and 0s per second. A byte which is a bit like a character like the letter A or a or Z or the digit 7 requires 8 bits or binary digits, so to work out how many bytes per second (computer data is measured in bytes normally) you need to divide the 56,000 by 8 which is 7,000, so a 56kbps modem should download data at a max of 7KB/s... note the b is now a capital b and means bytes rather than bits. In actual practise the download speed will more likely be 4-5KB/s with most connections.

    Applying this to the 155 Mbps speed of the new Russian Army system means 155 million bits per second divided by 8 is 19,375,000 bytes per second, or just over 19MB/s which is plenty... even for live realtime HD video footage with encryption.

    One assumes rapid deployment forces means the VDV are getting these, and I hope more branches get access to this sort of communications technology too.

    Hopefully the communication and combat management systems will be standardised with all branches of the Russian military... I have read that the Russian military has bought a combat simulation system from Germany and is putting its new brigades through it for training as an entire formation.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:01 am


    BΜD-3

    Detailed report here http://worldwide-defence.blogspot.com/2011/04/bmd-3-with-berezhok-turret-russia.html


    So they use BTR-80/90 , BMP-3 and BMD-3/4 for troop carrying and fighting ?

    Now isnt that too much of a specialised platform to do the job ?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:32 am

    So they use BTR-80/90 , BMP-3 and BMD-3/4 for troop carrying and fighting ?

    Now isnt that too much of a specialised platform to do the job ?

    The BMD was necessary for the VDV... the BMP was too heavy to drop out of an aircraft, and the BMD is not as well armoured as a BMP so the regular troops are better protected with the BMP, while the VDV are better protected with a BMD because the alternative is trucks or walking.

    The BMD is only used by airborne forces but it is their standard vehicle, with the standard BMD (with BMP like armament) as a standard firepower vehicle, plus a turretless troop transport model that is longer (and has an extra wheel on each side of the chassis), plus lots of other models including recon, jamming, 120mm mortar equipped models, plus engineer and other models... including the new Sprut 125mm gun armed vehicle.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:42 am

    I see that should make things clear , Thanks.

    Why does BMP ,BMD ,BTR have amphibious capability , Do they envisage crossing river or landing near to the sea all the time ?

    Do these vehical have restriction on the sea state where it can land , for eg can it just swim on a lake for 100 km without sinking ? Are they restricted by tidal wave ?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:03 pm

    Any choke point is an ideal ambush for an enemy.
    Any river has natural choke points built into them call bridges.
    Most rivers in Europe flow north to south and there are lots of them, so if you want to move east or west you need to be able to cross water.
    Having amphibious vehicles means you can cross in places of your choosing... without them you either send forces ahead to capture bridges (see western Operation Market Garden... and books and movies like "A bridge too far") or you need to take with you the engineering support vehicles to bridge the rivers yourself.
    The Russians and the Soviets before them did both... ie amphibious vehicles where possible and bridging capability for smaller spans and large spans as well.

    The Soviet Naval Infantry did use BTRs from ships, but they never intended them to be used for long distances. Most landing ships will drop BTRs a few dozens of metres from shore. In the unlikely event that hundreds of kms need to be covered they would be carried in fast landing craft or hovercraft like the AIST or Zubr class.
    The Mistral have landing catamarans that will drop armour near the beach too, and I think that all the SNI PT-76s will likely get replaced with new vehicles... perhaps related to some of the vehicles the VDV are getting.

    This is just my speculation but the VDV seem to be operating from boats more than they have ever done before. I have read about some training exercises recently where VDV forces have been cooperating with naval forces... which seems to be very new.
    The difference in practical terms of course is that naval forces don't have the strict weight limits that air dropping create, so for instance the Soviet Naval Forces could use standard main battle tanks like T-80s.

    In many ways the Russian Naval Infantry are elite like the VDV and they should work together in some areas and the RNI definitely need an equipment upgrade.

    I would also like to see the VDV given their own aircraft including helicopters to deploy men and equipment and aircraft to deploy heavy equipment.
    I have read about problems deploying VDV forces because there were not enough transport aircraft available at the time.
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:12 pm

    I should add that the amphibious vehicles will have sea state limits, where they can or cannot operate, the vast majority of the time however most amphibious vehicles will be crossing lakes or rivers... it would be rare for them to spend much time in the sea.
    A freak wave that doesn't turn the vehicle over will likely just wash over them.
    Very rough water however will likely lead to too much water entering the vehicle and swamping the engine and sinking it.
    They generally have bilge pumps to remove water that leaks into the vehicle and most have a limit of engine operation in water, but it is something like 10 hours which should be plenty for any river or lake.

    In most cases when a river or other water obstacle is confronted in most vehicles any rear door or side door is closed and the trim vane on the front of the vehicle is deployed and the bilge pumps are turned on. For BMPs a low gear is selected and the vehicle is powered in the water by the movement of the tracks. For the BTR and PT-76 they have internal propellers, so the driver drives into the water and when the wheels lose traction on the bottom he engages the propeller drive and uses the accelerator to move through the water.
    On the other side the bilge pumps are shut down and the trim vane dropped and the engine is engaged to propel the wheels if that is necessary and the vehicle is driven out of the water and continues combat.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:22 pm

    Thanks , I would think these vehical which have amphibious capability are well sealed so that water does not enter the internal compartment or into the engine.

    I really like the concept that their BTR , BMP and BMD have amphibious capability , nice piece of engineering.

    I just hope their new 25T Boomerang vehical has good amphibious capability.

    Check the US Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle video quite good

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOfXL1yURu4


    Amazing its a 36T amphibious vehical with high speed on water capability ,amazing feat.

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