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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1

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    Austin

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:35 pm

    http://www.redstar.ru/2010/10/01_10/1_01.html

    In the transition to a new look at battle of the Army provides a compound of heavy, medium and light types. Accordingly, at the initiative of the High Command of the Army defense industry began to develop a complex of three families of combat and support vehicles on the basis of heavy, medium and light unified platforms.

    First, the level of protection the main tank, designed for combat at close quarters with the enemy. They will come into service heavy-duty compounds.

    The second family car with a level of protection will be equipped with the BMP compounds designed to act in difficult terrain and in areas of coastal waters, making raids behind enemy lines, as well as to deal with small-sized (portable), antitank weapons of the enemy.

    The third family car is supposed to create on the basis of the automobile in an armored military equipment to the installation of performance on these advanced models of weapons, including precision and on new physical principles, systems and command, control, communications, reconnaissance, electronic warfare, etc.

    In planning the improvement of weapons and military equipment in the medium term, we clearly envision what should be the face of the Army in 10-15 years. To do so, participate in drafting the State Armaments Program for 2011-2020, which main idea should be to create a weapon system that meets the requirements of the XXI century.

    At the same time upgrading the Army plans to carry out in two stages. In the first (2011-2015) the main focus will be on procurement of modern arms and military equipment designs, especially for rocket and artillery units, intelligence units, electronic warfare and communications, and automated control systems for tactical level.

    At the same time continue to develop a new family of platforms such as light ("Typhoon"), medium ("Boomerang" and "Kurganets-25") and heavy ("Armata").
    In the second phase (2016-2020 years) is scheduled to begin a complete equipment and units with new modern types of weapons and military equipment on the base of unified platforms.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:13 pm

    We know from other sources that the Boomerang will be a 25 ton class wheeled vehicle... which makes it significantly heavier than existing BMP vehicles.
    We know it will be amphibious which suggests it might be quite large as well, or have exotic armour including NERA and Plastic elements to improve armour protection levels while keeping weight low.

    I would assume the point of having two medium size/weight vehicles is that the other vehicle is tracked with a higher level of cross country mobility and perhaps fire power as well.

    The real question is will the Typhoon be a very light MRAP like vehicle like Tigr-M, or will it be a BTR-90 like vehicle with improved layout and more sophisticated lighter armour of better performance?

    The burning question of course will be regarding the heavy brigades.
    What armament will the heavy APCs be equipped with?
    Will heavy armament on the heavy APCs lead to cramped conditions and fire traps if the ammo stores are hit?
    Will this lead to a new type of fire support vehicle being developed... a BMPT based on the Armata chassis?
    Will they revisit the issue in 2020?

    Personally I like the concept of the BMPT, I just think they made mistakes in implimenting it.

    In WWIII full scale war with top of the line opponent I think the firepower of a BMPT type vehicle will be useful. In lesser conflicts I think the firepower of the BMPT would actually be more suitable than the firepower of a tank which is often skewed towards dealing with enemy tanks.
    The BMPT should have been armed and equipped differently... it needed short range protected firepower but also direct and indirect HE firepower.

    In many ways the armament of the BMP-3M is ideal with a few modifications.

    First of all the turret ring ammo storage needs to be replaced with external turret rear bustle autoloader so that if the ammo catches fire the crew are safe.
    The 100mm gun should be mounted externally and raised up so that it gets much better depression and elevation angles and also makes more room at the front of the vehicle for wide low flat weapon turrets mounting a 30 cal machinegun and a 40mm grenade launcher with wide fields of view and aiming optics.
    Another 40mm grenade launcher at the centre rear of the turret like on the BMP-2 upgrade would round out excellent firepower.
    The 40mm grenade launcher has a curved trajectory which means it can fire over cover more effectively than 30mm cannon. The 30mm cannon would be useful for use against light armour and light aircraft and the short flight time improves performance against targets like troops in the open.
    The 100mm gun has a good range and heavy HE shell for tough targets like bunkers or buildings and for point targets like snipers or ATGM teams harrasing the unit or an adjacent unit a 100mm missile could be used to extended ranges with excellent accuracy.

    All this without putting lots of ammo in the crew compartment.

    Crew would stay the same as for the BMPT with three seated side by side in the front hull with the driver in the centre and a gunner on either side with a PKT MG and a 40mm auto grenade launcher. In the turret seated below the turret ring is the commander and gunner operating the turret mounted weapons of a PKT, a 100mm rifled gun with rear turret bustle autoloader with one piece HE shells and missile ammo, and one 2A72 30mm cannon with two ammo boxes for the dual feed HE and AP ammo types. The HE rounds can be the time fused models as used in the T-90 with the ANIET system that have been adopted for the BTR-82A. And finally at the rear of the turret elevating with the other weapons and with 400-500 rounds on a flat magazine that the rear of the turret is a 40mm BALKAN automatic grenade launcher. A 2.5km range with a big heavy powerful grenade and no empty case like their underbarrel 40mm grenade launchers.

    Variations on armament might be to replace the 100mm rifled gun with a 120mm gun/mortar/missile launcher.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:I would assume the point of having two medium size/weight vehicles is that the other vehicle is tracked with a higher level of cross country mobility and perhaps fire power as well.

    I would think one would be BTR replacement and one would be BMP replacement hence the mention of two vehicle.

    The real question is will the Typhoon be a very light MRAP like vehicle like Tigr-M,

    Yes it would be MRAP/Tigr like vehical and others thats under development that is the concept of light vehical , these would carry weapons , sensors , EW equipment , Radar ,ESM , Jammers etc

    The burning question of course will be regarding the heavy brigades.

    I think the heavy vehicle will be a Tank and support vehical like logistics ,ARV based on its chassis and Howitzer based on its chasis

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:52 pm

    I would think one would be BTR replacement and one would be BMP replacement hence the mention of two vehicle.

    Except that the BTR-80/82 and the BMP are in different weight classes at 14 and 18 tons respectively.

    It is more a case of one being a replacement for the BTR-90 and the other a replacement for the BMP-3... except that the BTR-90 weighs 20 tons and the BMP-3 weighs 18 tons, so at 25 tons these new vehicles are 5-7 tons heavier.

    The BTR-82/80 are closer to 14 tons.

    In many ways the BTR-90 was a cheaper more mobile BMP with slightly lighter armour and potentially the same firepower and more powerful engine.

    I guess it makes sense though. An extra 5 tons of armour and revised ramp rear and side door exits would make the Boomerang a useful vehicle. I think a bigger heavier BMP-3 might sell well too... especially if its engine arrangement is sorted to allow a proper ramp rear door an heavier armour fitted.

    I think the heavy vehicle will be a Tank and support vehical like logistics ,ARV based on its chassis and Howitzer based on its chasis

    If we look at the current use, we have tank, Heavy APC, 152mm artillery, Bridging vehicle, recovery vehicle, Engineer vehicle... to which I would add Air Defence vehicle, and possibly fire support vehicle with heavier armament than that fitted to the APC. There might even be an unmanned land vehicle model for resupply.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:Except that the BTR-80/82 and the BMP are in different weight classes at 14 and 18 tons respectively.

    If you read the Army Chief comment , he mentions two vehical in medium class "Boomerang" and "Kurganets-25" , so one would be a BMP class and other will be BTR class ....... atleast that makes more sense to me, considering they are replacing every thing.

    Plus he mentions these vehical should be mobile ,amphibious and must be able to withstand portable weapons

    The second family car with a level of protection will be equipped with the BMP compounds designed to act in difficult terrain and in areas of coastal waters, making raids behind enemy lines, as well as to deal with small-sized (portable), antitank weapons of the enemy.

    That is one of the reason for higher weight which is better armour and protection
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:32 pm

    The idea of having cheap light wheeled vehicles like the BTR-80/-82 is to be discontinued and replaced with the more expensive but better protected BTR-90 concept.

    The question will be are the wheeled Boomerang going to have the light BTR-82 armament or a heavier BTR-90/BMP armament.

    I guess it comes down to whether they want a tracked and wheeled vehicle in the same weight class for cost reasons (wheeled vehicles are cheaper to buy and to operate in terms of fuel use and maintainence), or for mobility reasons or both.

    If it is for mobility reasons (which I suspect) then brigades in areas where there are more roads there will be more wheeled models and in places where roads are a myth then the tracked vehicles will dominate the medium Brigades.

    My suspicion is that the cheap simple light vehicle will be a MRAP type light truck like the SPM-3 which might inherit the BTR-82s turrets and optics, while the medium Boomerang will replace the idea of the BTR-90 with BMP armament and armour but still wheeled and amphibious and quite mobile.
    The BMPs will clearly be heavier too, but whether that is all due to armour or if they will be enlarged to make more room for the troops or if there will be a drastic change in firepower is another question.
    Perhaps they will go for mixed firepower options with heavy HE firepower and auto cannon (ie BMP-3M armament) with a new anti IFV high velocity gun in the 45mm, 57mm and perhaps 60-65mm calibre range that could take on even MBT from some angles at extended ranges.
    Perhaps to force NATO to go to a Tank APC too?

    Looking forward to seeing them... Smile

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:The question will be are the wheeled Boomerang going to have the light BTR-82 armament or a heavier BTR-90/BMP armament.

    I really see no reason why Boomerang and Kurganets-25 should be equipped with light armament , it would be equipped with heavy armament much better then BTR-90 and BMP-3.

    The light armament will come with Typhoon light vehicle.

    I also think none of the heavy,medium and light vehical will replace the existing orbat from 2015 in significant number ,I see BTR-80a/BTR-90/BMP-3/T-90/80 will remain in service for the next 15 - 20 years from now and then these will be replaced by newer types
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:46 am

    The Russian government has committed itself to 70% all new state of the art equipment by 2020.
    This means the process of getting these new vehicles into service is fairly urgent because they will need to make an enormous number of these vehicles to fill all the roles they will be needed for.

    The economies of scale really only apply when each brigade has its family of chassis in service. Having a hodge podge of different types of vehicles would be worse than what they have now because you'd have the old and the new.

    I rather suspect that vehicles will be introduced a brigade at a time when enough chassis are available to fill the required roles.

    The top units, or the units in the front line will likely get the new kit first.

    Regarding the light armament comment I made I was thinking in terms of what they have now.
    A current motor rifle brigade will have a small number of tanks and depending on where it operates it will have BTR-70s, BTR-80s and BMP-1s and BMP-2s and BMP-3s.
    A Tank brigade will have a much large number of tanks but also APCs and IFVs too.

    The thing I am thinking is that if Boomerang replaces BTR-80As and Kurganets-25 replaces the BMPs will the Boomerang have BTR-82 and BTR-82A level armament or will they upgrade them to BTR-90M armament which was basically BMP-3M armament (100mm rifled gun and 30mm cannon) or will they arm the Boomerang with all new "BMP-4" armament that the Kurganets-25 will likely have that might include 30mm cannon and 100mm rifled gun or 120mm gun mortar, or perhaps a 45/57mm cannon, and 120mm gun mortar? Or the Kurganets might come in a choice of armaments and the Boomerang might come with the same choices.

    Right now the expensive but capable Catherine Thermal sights are to be fitted to the BMP-3 and the T-90. Will both Boomerang and Kurganets-25 get the same sights or will Boomerang get lesser sights as fitted to the BTR-82.

    Note with the old Buran Soviet Thermal sight the T-80U could see and hit targets at up to 2.1km in complete darkness. With the Catherine Thermals sights targets can be engaged at 5-7km range in complete darkness.

    It is the big gun and excellent optics that make tanks useful vehicles on the battlefield.
    Having the same optics in a Boomerang and decent direct and indirect fire power would make it a very useful vehicle for a range of conflict types.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Russian government has committed itself to 70% all new state of the art equipment by 2020.

    Yes they mean 70 % of equipment overall in armed forces which does not mean each piece of equipment in every department will be 70 % new , it means some department will get 90 or 100 % new equipment some will be 60 % some will be 50 % but overall the armed forces will have average 70 % new equipment.


    This means the process of getting these new vehicles into service is fairly urgent because they will need to make an enormous number of these vehicles to fill all the roles they will be needed for.

    Yes for most part it would be but BTR-80a and BTR-90 are relatively new and will have another 15 - 20 years of life left depending when they were made and how well they would be maintained and used , more ever Armata/Boomerang will start coming post 2015 or even later so they will take time to set up production and numbers will gradually grow in years , I would expect the Armada will slowly replace T-72's to start with and not t-90 and Boomerang etc will replace the BTR-70/ older BTR-80 and BMP-2 and not the newer BTR-80a/90 and BMP-3 they still have atleast a decade of service life left.

    And by the time these would be replaced you would see some upgrade model of Armata and Boomerang replacing it.

    And i would expect the Armata/Boomerang to be quite well armed as these are newer and expensive system so they would have Netcentricity right from startup and new class of armament , as to how it will compatred with BMP or BTR we cant speculate there , need to wait as see.
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:29 am

    Yes they mean 70 % of equipment overall in armed forces which does not mean each piece of equipment in every department will be 70 % new , it means some department will get 90 or 100 % new equipment some will be 60 % some will be 50 % but overall the armed forces will have average 70 % new equipment.

    The old structure was three levels of combat readiness.

    The first line troops had all their gear and all their personel ready within hours to move. The second line troops had full gear but a lot of the gear was not state of the art and they had half their personel. To mobilise the second tier forces would take a week or two to get the personel and equipment ready and operational. The third line troops were skeleton forces with most of their kit in storage that was all previous generation stuff. It would take a month to mobilise such a force.

    The new structure is all ready forces so even though the forces are a fraction of the size of the old three tier forces in actual combat terms they are actually more ready to fight straight away than before.

    The point is that you are going to have units in the potential front line and you are going to have units in the backwaters. In 2006 despite the fighting in Chechnya the Army located there was considered second Tier at best and was not equipped with the best stuff. Now with Georgia being a problem that has probably changed... I can't say for sure, but the fact that there are photos floating around of T-90s deployed to Abkhazia and South Ossetia and lots of other new stuff I suspect their status has changed. The hubub about the Kirile Islands and the claims by Russia that it will start spending money in the Far East suggests to me that the shock of the attack in South Ossetia has made them realise how vulnerable the Far East is from a Japanese attack. 5 Years ago anyone would think a Japanese attack would be highly unlikely, but a bad economy... a bad economy forecast for the next 10 years, a radical government making promises to get into power... what might they do when they get it?

    What I am saying is that in areas where the perceived threat is highest the units will always get the best gear. The new model of the military forces however means that old equipment has less value because there are no skeleton forces that would be better armed with T-55s than nothing at all so most of the old stuff will have to go.

    When you start getting rid of the old stuff you need to buy new stuff or you will have no stuff.
    What you say is perfectly accurate... all units will not have 70 percent new stuff... one third of the units will have 100% new stuff and two thirds will have 50 percent new stuff... which means production of the new stuff needs to meet the requirements of one third of the forces.
    They will likely equip brigades at a time, and the production rate of light vehicles means that the light and medium brigades will most likely get their vehicles first and fastest.

    Yes for most part it would be but BTR-80a and BTR-90 are relatively new and will have another 15 - 20 years of life left depending when they were made and how well they would be maintained and used

    AFAIK there are very few if any BTR-90s in Russian Army service. The FSB and other government branches might have bought some but I rather doubt it is in mass production. I haven't seen it on exercise yet.
    The BTR-82 and BTR-82A are in production... no doubt to replace the BTR-60 and BTR-70 models in service first and then BTR-80 models next.

    The final result of production I think will be a reserve of BTR-82 vehicles that will serve well as basic trainers and for exercises with the new recruits and for first line use in rear areas. The point is that most equipment in service is not just old, it has had use but has not been upgraded and maintained the way it should have been.

    For instance a lot of Su-27s in service now are just original bog standard Su-27s the same as they were when they entered service in the 1980s. In comparison aircraft like the Mig-21s and Mig-23 had dozens of models they were updated to throughout their service lives. From 2015 to 2020 the focus will move from updated and optimised old models like BTR-82 and BMP-3M and T-90AM to production of brand new models... namely Boomerang, Kurganets-25, and the Armata (which will not be like the T-95 UVZ was working on though it may share some of its features). Production of Typhoon should be very quick because it is a light vehicle and would be mass produced in fairly large numbers fairly quickly. Boomerang should be produced relatively quickly too... though a Kurganets type armament might increase costs and slow entry into service.
    The Su-27 had a similar problem in that the air frames were produced much faster than the radars and avionics so there was a large number of airframes waiting for electronic bits that took longer to make. A cheaper simpler armed Boomerang would make production cheaper and faster. The Armata chassis will be the slowest to get into service, but the economies of scale will help because each brigade type will be built around a chassis family so instead of having dozens of vehicle types for each unit there will be three main family types.

    I would expect the Armada will slowly replace T-72's to start with and not t-90

    Agree, but would suggest Armata will most likely replace the T-80s first with T-72s getting upgrades... perhaps the Russians will sell their T-80s to the Ukraine or South Korea or Cyprus... or all three. Being the gas turbine powered model they are the most expensive to operate.

    not t-90 and Boomerang etc will replace the BTR-70/ older BTR-80 and BMP-2 and not the newer BTR-80a/90 and BMP-3 they still have atleast a decade of service life left.

    On paper the Armata will likely replace the T-80 and the T-62 and T-64 and T-55/54, but in practical terms the Armata will replace T-90AMs and those T-90AMs will replace upgraded T-90S tanks and those T-90S tanks will replace upgraded T-90A tanks and those T-90A tanks will replace upgraded T-72 tanks. Any unit that had T-80s will likely also get them replaced... either with T-90AMs or Armatas.

    The same for the other vehicle classes, but it will be more complicated because you are changing from a Motor Rifle and Tank Brigade to Heavy, medium, and light brigades.

    A Motor Rifle Brigade would have a mix of tanks and BMPs and BTRs. A Tank Brigade of the same tier would have the same types of vehicles but in different mixes... the Tank Brigade having a larger proportion of tanks to IFVs and APCs.

    A heavy brigade will have all tank vehicles but what will the proportion of tanks be in such a formation? One presumes it will be tank heavy for fire power, but combat in cities and strong points needs manpower too. Perhaps it will be balanced evenly between tanks and IFVs.

    The Medium Brigade needs mobility as well as firepower and would probably have more IFVs than tanks.

    The Light Brigade needs mobility and fire power to compensate for lack of armour... it needs surprise and impact.

    In practical terms the new force structure is quite different from what was previously used, so I suspect the new units will be formed as the new equipment becomes available.

    The family concept of vehicles only works when all vehicles in the unit conform to the concept... having T-90AMs in a heavy brigade only really makes sense when all other vehicles in the brigade use the T-90 chassis.

    I rather suspect production right now will fill gaps and keep existing forces equipped but after 2015 as the new vehicles become available the old tank and motorrifle units will be replaced by a complete Heavy, Light, or medium brigade when the vehicles are ready. I suspect there will be a ratio of 1:4:6-8 in terms of heavy, medium, and light brigades as the mobile light units will have a variety of uses and no doubt will be cheaper to equip and operate. I suspect the light brigades will use UAVs and UCAVs extensively too.
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    Armored vechiles discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:40 am

    Actually I remember reading an article about Russian ownership of the the Kurile Islands and it mentioned that there were units on the Kuriles that were still old formations based on the old MotorRifle and Tank units.

    I believe it was an artillery machinegun support unit they were particularly talking about but they seem to suggest that other Russian units had already been changed to brigade units.

    Their final heavy/medium/light equipment will not start entering service till 2015 onwards so I am wondering what they have done.

    A heavy brigade right now will not have heavy APCs unless they have built some on the sly.
    Equally medium brigades would be almost all BMPs because the BTRs in service and in production now (ie BTR-80 and previous models in service and BTR-82s in production) don't match the BMPs in armour... except the BTR-90 and its production is supposedly on hold till Boomerang replaces it.
    The light brigades could be Tigrs and Volks and BTR-82s with perhaps the odd BMP-3 for firepower till the Typhoons are finally ready.

    The point is that current brigades will have a mishmash of vehicles that will vary from region to region greatly.

    The intial focus should be on C4IR systems in upgraded current vehicles so current brigades can train to operate the way they will operate in the future.
    Hardware can be tested like communication and sensors, and all the little upgrades like new ERA and new APS systems can be put into full scale production and experience gained. The money earned with sales to integrate ARENA for example should generate the funding and design and production experience to further develop the system and make it more capable while improving the performance of the fleet straight away and investing in the future of the system to make it more capable in the future.

    As such I would probably say 1,500 is the limit for the T-90AM including upgrades of existing T-90s to T-90AM standards. Of the 5,500 other tanks I would say keep the T-80 in service for another 4 years and then they can be replaced first by the first Armata tanks. It should be kept in mind that equipping a heavy tank brigade is not just about Armata tanks, but Armata chassis for every main vehicle in a heavy brigade so even if they spend a lot of money on the Army in the 2015-2020 period I don't think that the entire fleet of heavy brigades will be fully equipped because for every tank there will be a dozen other vehicles that use tank chassis.
    For the 5,000 tanks minus the available T-80s... lets assume there are 2,000 T-80s in good condition... that leaves 3500 T-72s of which 1,500 could be upgraded.

    This means that in 2015 when Armata presumably becomes ready for production the Russian Army will have paid for 1,000 T-90AM tanks and T-90S and T-90A upgrades, which they can keep using with upgrades till Armata is produced in numbers to replace them. The 1,500 T-80s are expensive to operate but need only minor upgrades... perhaps fitting it with the new V-99 engine might make it cheaper to operate, but we don't want to spend too much money on it as it can be the first to go as it has little parts commonality with the T-72/T-90 series and so with Armata would be a third different tank type. And 1,500 upgraded T-72s leaving 2,000 un-upgraded T-72s.

    The T-72s and the T-80s will be used for small scale exercises and training while the T-90s and upgraded T-72s will be used on big exercises and during conflicts if there are any. This means the majority wear and tear will be on the older models which will be scrapped or donated to an ally in 2015.

    According to the CFE agreement... which Russia has signed but has said will not honour till other participants have signed and started honouring the Russian forces are allowed something like 2,000 operational tanks with 4,000 in storage in European Russia so perhaps I need to revise my numbers with some more T-90s and perhaps more T-72s for the Far East including vehicles used for training and in operational storage for real conflicts.

    Either way there is a balance where upgrades and new vehicles need to be bought, but not so much money spent so that when the new vehicles are available there is no money left to build them. You need enough upgrades and new build vehicles to keep the factories working, keep the workforce trained and tooled with the latest production equipment and methods, and of course the subcontractors making 125mm ammo and ERA and ARENA active protection systems making products so they can earn the money to develop and improve their products.
    Having ARENA in production and service means to a potential customer that there will be an ARENA 2 and it will get better.

    ARENA as it is already is useful against the RPG which is amongst the most prolific threat on the battlefield which alone makes it worth it.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:36 pm

    Looking at this video on BMP-3M , its pretty awesome even of old
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjJzvwPLb84

    I am just wondering of Bomerang or what ever replaces BMP-3 what kind of firepower should it have.

    Would replacement of 30 mm Anti Aircraft gun with 57 mm and replace 100 mm Gun with 105 mm gun or even a 120 mm MG with guided projectile capability ?

    Just imagine if a 120 mm or 105 mm caliber gun can fire Verba like missile with true fire and forget capability , that would significantly upgrade its anti-aircraft and anti-missile capability.

    With a small MMW radar like you see on Mi-28N or Ka-52 and IR/TI/EO sensor to back it up
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:13 am

    I am just wondering of Bomerang or what ever replaces BMP-3 what kind of firepower should it have.

    Boomerang is the wheeled replacement for the BTR, the Kurganets-25 will likely be the BMP replacement... and will likely be called BMP-4.
    Boomerang might be called BTR-95 or perhaps BTR-100 or something.

    They are not planning for now, they are planning for the future so it really depends on what they know about western IFV armour programs.

    I have heard rumours they were working on a 45mm gun that had a 57mm S-60 gun as competition using new ammo including guided shells.

    The performance of the HE shells for these two guns might determine the future of the armament as a good HE shell might make the HE thrower portion of the armament redundant so it might be equipped with a single gun and have a grenade launcher in support.

    Another possibility could be a 100mm rifled gun as fitted to the BMP-3 for indirect HE fire support. With a larger heavier vehicle is could easily possible they might decide on a 120mm gun mortar system which seems to be very popular for Airborne forces on the 2S9 and other vehicles.

    Of course they might go for mixed firepower with half the vehicles armed with high velocity 45mm or 57mm guns and the other half retain the 30mm cannons and 100mm guns of the BMP-3 to give the force more flexibility in firepower.

    Another option might be to let the tracked Kurganets-25s keep the 30mm and 100mm rifled guns and put the high velocity anti armour weapons on the wheeled Boomerangs.

    The thing is that if they can put 125mm guns on the BMD-3 chassis like Sprut then it should be even easier to do the same to these new much larger and heavier vehicles too.

    105mm main guns are very unlikely as Russia has not used that calibre historically a 100mm high velocity gun could be an option but 125mm would be more potent and already developed for the Sprut.

    The large calibre weapon needs to be low velocity to allow a curved trajectory to hit targets behind cover so the 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3 and the 120mm gun mortar are ideal with large HE shells but relatively low velocities. Standard HE rounds will be much cheaper than any missile yet have direct fire accuracy a a heavy payload.

    A useful addition might be laser homing HE shells for the 100mm or 120mm gun and gun/mortar giving them pinpoint accuracy when needed.

    The BMP-3s are already to get Catherine Thermal sights which should provide night and all weather viewing to 8-10km.

    I would suspect BMP-4 gets at least as good if not better.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:39 am

    One of the reason why BMP-4 needs heavy firepower is because US is going to go for heavy Infantry Carrier , I think similar to Israel by compromising its amphibious capability for better protection and perhaps firepower.

    Abrams is Model for Army Infantry Carrier

    Some discussion on mp.net here link

    Seems like US will improve its existing M1 and hence we could see new Tanks,ICV and SPH based on M1 chasis and in similar weight category.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:32 pm

    Since this is a 25T BMP-4 and taking into account that US would move towards a larger ICV , here is what i would see in new BMP

    1 ) Upgrade from current 30 mm rounds to 57 mm round firing smart ammo
    2 ) 100 mm MG should do quite well , they must improve the ballistic characteristics and develop new and improved intelligent ammo like better HEAT to penetrate heavy US ICV
    3 ) Chassis that has integrated MMW Radar and integrated EO/TI system that can track ground vehical and aircraft.
    4 ) Most important best crew comfort and protection possible.
    5 ) Light ERA and Active protection system from all kind of missile including top attack
    6 ) Improved range , higher speed both on land and on water over BMP-3M
    7 ) Improved amphibious capability over BMP-3M

    Thats my list its quite modest and low risk approach with incremental and major improvement where needed and required.
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:04 am

    The best way for a BMP-4 to take out a vehicle with ABRAM like armour is a diving top attack weapon.

    With a 100mm calibre limitation then slip rings to prevent excessive gyroscopic force and a fairly long round with seeker in the nose, front warhead, and then rocket motor to extend range and over come drag and increase average missile velocity, and in the rear another full calibre warhead.

    The front warhead is a 100mm calibre warhead with a modern metal liner but a hole through the centre for the rear warhead to pass through first.

    Behind the front warhead is a small metal shield to protect the front warhead.

    An extended spike at the nose will set off the rear warhead to detonate through the hole in the front warhead and start penetration of the armour. The front warhead will then detonate with a shorter focal length and continue the penetration through the roof of the target though the explosive used will have aluminium powder mixed in to give an incendiary effect too.

    A few side thrusters will fire in the last 10-20m of flight to make it difficult to intercept and also ensure the missile hits the dead centre of the target.

    MMW radar guidance would probably suffice.

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    The 19th Motorized Rifle Brigade. Combat Training

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:01 pm

    http://twower.livejournal.com/588207.html

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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:39 am

    Some update on Armata

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/6209/
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:24 am

    So it is as we suspected.

    Armata is a military concept of a family of unified heavy vehicle chassis design that was passed to UVZ. Presumably the other families concepts will be passed to the relevant producers... Kurganets-25 to the makers of BMPs and Kangaroo to the makers of BTRs and the light vehicle to the makers of Volk and Tigr-M.

    The purpose of the Armata family base vehicle is to standardise wheels and suspension and track components, engine and transmission installation, control elements of chassis, driver control interface, onboard electronics and systems, life-support system.

    Chassis construction:
    There are two layout options for the chassis, with engine and transmission at the front and at the rear of the vehicle... the difference in such arrangement aside all components are the same as listed above.

    Transmission:
    Suspension 6 rolling wheels, controlled on the blade shock absorbers, the differential mechanism of turning with the hydraulic gear shift. 12- stepped automatic gearbox with the possibility of manual switching. Control elements: steering control, the change-gear lever and pedal of gas and brake. (note no manual clutch).

    New diesel engine... clearly not a gas turbine and not combined electric drive as it uses a transmission.

    Vehicle types to be created based on this chassis (which is important as the other families will likely have the same equivalent versions too):

    -Tank
    -a BMP/BTR or troop transport
    -a BMPT or fire support vehicle (hooray!!)
    -Command and control vehicles (with tank level armour... likely with basic light armament but more radios and perhaps control equipment to control UAVs or at least receive their data feeds
    -Tube and Rocket artillery support vehicles like Coalition (note Coalition is likely the 65 ton machines they talk about)
    -Air defence vehicles with perhaps a mix of Pantsir-S1 turrets and maybe even gun only 57mm gun armed turrets with AESA radars and IR optics and guided shells
    -support vehicles like the BREM recovery and repair vehicles which need the power to drag a vehicle its own size or larger off the battlefield and mine clearing and perhaps recon vehicles, ambulance vehicles perhaps even frontline transport of ammo or fuel or equipment etc.

    ... so at least 7 different vehicles based on the one platform
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:13 am

    Just realised that we need to add another system to the Armata family... TOS.

    I guess we can split them up into chassis versions: one with the engine at the back, turret in the centre (manned or unmanned) and the crew in the front of the tank and the other with the engine and driver in the front, perhaps a small manned or unmanned turret in the centre and compartment in the rear for troops etc.

    So with the engine at the rear would suit:
    - Main Battle Tank
    - BMPT fire support vehicle
    - Tube and Rocket artillery support:
    + Coalition (152mm tube)
    + TOS (rocket thermobaric and incendiary)
    + Perhaps a version of the new Hurricane system with two centrally mounted rocket pods like TOS?
    - Pantsir-S1 probably doesn't need easy rear exit so it can go here and any developments using 45mm or 57mm guns with guided shells could probably go here too.
    - support vehicles:
    + BREM recovery and repair vehicle
    + Mine clearing vehicle
    + recon platform able to operate underwater to recon riverbeds etc.


    The vehicles that would benefit from a front mounted engine include most of the vehicles that require easy access or entry and exit to the contents of the vehicle:

    - BMP/BTR or troop transport
    - Command and control vehicles (with tank level armour... likely with basic light armament but more radios and perhaps control equipment to control UAVs or at least receive their data feeds.
    - support vehicles:
    + ambulance vehicles
    + frontline transport vehicle for ammo or fuel or equipment etc.

    Of course the fact that currently the MSTA is based on a tank chassis with the engine at the rear is largely because it is tank based and there were no front mounted engine options.
    Perhaps with the choice they might go for front mounted engine models of tube and rocket artillery.

    There is also the possibility of adding new artillery vehicles... currently the 120mm gun mortar seems very popular so there might be a heavy model of the Vena for example.
    They used to have a very capable 160mm towed mortar in service that fired very useful 40kg bombs that might be useful for heavy armour use... most targets have frontal cover but few have top cover hard enough to stop a 40kg HE shell. In forests or cities a vertical plunging round is rather more effective than a faster travelling flatter shooting round from a large gun.
    Note the BMP-2 upgrade has both a 30mm grenade launcher on the roof of its turret and a 30mm high velocity auto cannon in the front of its turret.
    It would appear that both cancel each other out... why would you want a 30mm low velocity grenade launcher when you have a high velocity cannon in the same calibre.

    The simple fact is that the high velocity 30mm cannon would not be able to engage targets behind a small ridge or low hill or sand bank effectively, while the much lower velocity 30mm grenade launcher will happily lob grenades over such an obstruction. Conversely if an enemy helo appeared or a enemy light vehicle then the high velocity and armour piercing rounds of the auto cannon mean hits are more likely and the damage will be greater, so for different targets you want different weapons.
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:14 pm

    Armata family is really big. I only miss BMO-T there, but I don't think army really need them in larger numbers.
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:37 am

    The medium brigade is split into two families of wheeled and tracked and likely the various equivalent vehicles will be split between the two vehicle types depending on the chassis requirements... of course it is perfectly possible that there might be two versions of the same vehicle so there is a tracked and wheeled version to make the unit more flexible.
    Wheeled gun armed vehicle and of course a light tracked tank with a heavy gun is perhaps a good example.

    The light brigade will likely have a mix of 2, 4, and perhaps 6 wheeled vehicles too, yet for the family concept to work it would make sense to make sure they are all part of the same family. I have seen a heavy 6 wheel vehicle based on either the Volk or the Tigr-M I think.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:56 pm

    some info on Armata and T-90

    http://vpk.name/news/56616_rossiiskaya_armiya_k_2020_godu_vzglyad_optimista.html

    Will be purchased and equipment for ground forces. Thus, according to the director of the Federal Service Rosoboronzakaz Sergey Maev, 2020 Russian fleet of armored forces will consist of half-T-90 tanks from the tanks and half the new sample. At the same official let slip about the combat characteristics of new cars. The new tank will get a higher fire power, more powerful ammunition and shooting range. Work is underway to build missiles with a range of 7 km. (Now the Russian Army is a tank missiles with a range of 5 km). . Manageability tank will be increased by the use of various automatic control systems. Average speed of vehicles on rough terrain should reach 50-60 km / h, against the current of 30-50 km / h. In addition, one of the main requirements for the tank crew will be the ability to conduct combat operations within 24 hours without leaving the car.


    T-90 justifiably criticized, but this machine is well suited to be the "workhorse" and can remain in service for many years. This tank is capable of withstanding an explosion 30 kiloton nuclear bomb at a distance of 700 meters and can travel underwater. But its main advantages - it's maintainability, simplicity, possibility of use in harsh climatic conditions and, of course, low price (about $ 1.8 million for export versions).
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:57 am

    Some fresh news...

    "Аrmata" rules!

    For more than two years, lasted battles about the need to create a new platform for promising heavy Russian armor. Development work in this direction began last spring after UKBTM concept won the competition . However, only now the General Staff was pleased to approve the program. Of course, this decision will be a good gift for Taghilsky tank builders, coinciding with a bunch of anniversaries: the 75th anniversary of the actual "Uralvagonzavod", the 70th anniversary of UKBTM, 70 years of the 1st UVZ tank, the 65th anniversary Day of tankers.

    General Staff approved a program to create a whole family of new armored vehicles based on a single tracked platform for the Russian Ground Forces, reported on Tuesday "Interfax" referring to a source in the military-industrial complex.

    "This program provides for the development of modern heavy tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, obstacle clearing vehicles which are to equip the tank and Moto-Rifle brigades of the Army "- a spokesman said. He noted that the new tank on a modular basis and a unified chasis "Armata" is scheduled to be adopted in the Army in 2015

    (includes drawings of the new chasis)
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/08/blog-post_23.html

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:04 am

    "This program provides for the development of modern heavy tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, obstacle clearing vehicles which are to equip the tank and Moto-Rifle brigades of the Army "- a spokesman said.

    That is interesting, they are going to retain the Tank and the Motor-Rifle brigades, so they will have heavy, medium, and light tank brigades and heavy, medium, and light motor-rifle brigades.

    Note: motor-rifle brigades are just motorised infantry brigades, so these are tank brigades and infantry brigades. The tank brigades have BMPs and BTRs, and the infantry brigades have tanks... the difference is in the proportion. Tank brigades have mostly tanks with infantry support, while Motor Rifle brigades have mostly troop carriers but with tank support.

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