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    PAK FA, T-50: News

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    Viktor
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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:56 pm

    I think L-AESA in only IFF role would be huge overkill. Yet until Russia discloses what is it about we can not be sure and there are range of options with perhaps

    even combination of different abilities. This thing is intended for even older Flankers who has IFF.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:42 am

    it seems we cant understand each other , i said engine versions ,not number of engines Rolling Eyes , there will be always 2 engines in t-50 ,but different engine version  (different nozzle mostly).

    that doesnt matter interceptor version was to be with just frontal stealth or reduced rcs with circular rear nozzles (no loss of thrust).russian and indians wanted 2 seat then russian side give up and single seat with l-band radars added. indiand wanted 2 seat with square nozzle and all round stealth so it would be a fighter version.russian cant seem to reach mig-31 performance supercruise is not near mach 2. if they use any afterburning they wont have the range....so thats the reason all the talk about new mig-31 production with 6 missileaesa radar and better speeds.,there is lot of potential there.
    t-50 interceptor armament is just 4 missiles same as current mig-31. so t-050 interceptor version will be same or lacking not upgrading on mig-31.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:23 am

    it seems we cant understand each other , i said engine versions ,not number of engines Rolling Eyes , there will be always 2 engines in t-50 ,but different engine version (different nozzle mostly).x

    When you say 1-2-3 engine versions, it sounds like you mean versions with one engine (ie a light 5th gen), the standard version with two engines (PAK FA), and a heavy version with three engines presumably as a Su-34 type variant replacement or Mig-31 replacement or both.

    You would need a significant redesign of the PAK FA to make it suitable for Mig-31 replacement... the reduced manouverabilty requirement would allow the rear horizontal tail surfaces to be removed and perhaps even the vertical tails removed as well and of course the wing would then become a very large delta though the higher speed requirements would require much more sweep of the leading edge.

    The body could be half as long again and the belly could be lowered so it has a flat bottom that would allow a row of medium or short range missiles below the engines in sort of semi conformal positions of the current design and an extra layer of heavy missiles in the main bay, though with the lowered belly they would all be internal.

    That would allow perhaps two R-77s and a 9M100 under each engine nacelle at the front and the back, so 8 R-77s and 4 9M100s plus 4 R-37Ms in the original centre bays and 4 more below them for a total load of 8 x R-37M, 8 x R-77, and 4 9M100. In this case the 9M100 are short range point defence missiles with a lock on after launch capability and full thrust vectoring performance so they could be released downwards in flight and then be directed in any direction to hit an incoming missile like an AMRAAM for self defence if the US has a sneaky trick like arming its B-2s with a few AMRAAMs for self defence.

    In fact an interesting idea would be to add a ramjet engine on a spine down the upper back of the aircraft that gets air fed from the main inlets to the standard two engines to operate at high altitude and high speed so one or both standard engines could be shut down to further improve fuel efficiency... the main issue of course is whether the structure can take the heat of those speeds which it likely can't as it was never a requirement.

    that doesnt matter interceptor version was to be with just frontal stealth or reduced rcs with circular rear nozzles (no loss of thrust)

    Even with just frontal stealth it is an unnecessary cost that will make the aircraft more expensive to make and operate than it needs to be.

    When the only tool you have is a hammer you have to treat every problem like it is a nail... not all problems are nails.

    russian and indians wanted 2 seat then russian side give up and single seat with l-band radars added.

    Russian side never planned for 2 seat PAK FA.

    From Austins post above:

    The T-50’s “e-pilot” functionality is constantly analyzing the situation, offering the pilot several options on which to act.

    The pilot will receive the bulk of flight and combat data in the form of symbols and signs, making it easier to process and substantially easing the pressure on the pilot, while allowing him to focus on the tactical mission at hand.

    The 5th gen avionics act as an electronic pilot that passes only necessary and relevant information to the pilot so he can make a choice or decision... there is no need for a second crewman.

    Once you can master a 4th gen fighter (ie Su-27/30/35) then flying this 5th gen fighter should be like flying with an instructor all the time.

    and single seat with l-band radars added.

    L band radars were planned for the Su-35 first and were added to PAK FA because both would be dealing with stealth targets.

    indiand wanted 2 seat with square nozzle and all round stealth so it would be a fighter version.

    We shall see what India wants... that will be the FFGA... the PAK FA is Russian.

    russian cant seem to reach mig-31 performance supercruise is not near mach 2.

    Funny that... perhaps a bit like the F-22 not being able to supercruise at the same speed as the Mig-31. Very odd. Perhaps because PAK FA and F-22 were never intended to be Mig-31 replacements?

    so thats the reason all the talk about new mig-31 production with 6 missileaesa radar and better speeds.,there is lot of potential there.

    Potential what? If PAK FA can be adapted to do the job of a Mig-31 then surely the Yak-130 can be adapted to the role of Su-25 and perhaps even light 5th gen fighter... or not.

    The key to saving money is not to take the most expensive fighter in the fleet and use it for everything. The US wouldn't save money by taking the B-2 design and using it to replace all its B-52s and B-1Bs. A much cheaper B-2 design without the stealth and with the capability to carry enormous numbers of long range stealthy cruise missiles conformally over its belly with a straight forward avionics package designed for stand off launching of cruise missiles in WWIII or heavy high flying bomb truck for use against Afghanistan with extensive fighter support for other actions that maybe costs $150 million a plane to buy that is much much cheaper to operate... is fuel efficient.

    Well lets not be too overcome with common sense and reality...

    t-50 interceptor armament is just 4 missiles same as current mig-31. so t-050 interceptor version will be same or lacking not upgrading on mig-31.

    Both aircraft could have the same armament in fact except the T-50 would have 4 R-37M missiles internally and a further 4 missiles on external pylons, while the Mig-31BM could have 4 R-37Ms on its belly with four wing pylons for other missiles too.

    Both would have a gun, though I believe the Mig-31s are not using them at the moment.

    The difference is that four big heavy externally mounted missiles would likely greatly reduce supercruise capacity for the T-50, and also effect flight range.

    The other aspect of course is that the PAK FA will likely actually be rather more expensive than a Mig-31.


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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:40 am

    BTW I would say by this:



    That it is a radar and not just an IFF antenna or datalink antenna.


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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:That it is a radar and not just an IFF antenna or datalink antenna.

    I agree. It reminds me of a similar principle like in air defense systems applied to aviation.

    L-Band AESA will serve like a search radar and tell powerful Irbis where to look for. Just like 64N6 scans the sky and than tells 30N6 where to point/look for.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:56 am

    Exactly... even if it doesn't track the enemy stealth aircraft at all, it can indicate the presence of enemy stealth aircraft including UCAVS, and I am sure it will have many other functions they might work out for it for direction finding... the size of the AESA modules means it should be able to transmit and receive on a very wide range band of frequencies...


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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:06 pm

    all options considered were ;
    1 seat ,2 seat
    engine with circular nozzle ,squaretip nozzle .
    L-band aesa ,no L-band.
    lots of combinations there.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:28 am

    [all options considered were ;
    1 seat ,2 seat
    engine with circular nozzle ,squaretip nozzle .
    L-band aesa ,no L-band.
    lots of combinations there.

    Hardly anything really... only the 1 seat/2seat question would require any changes to the aircraft design worth a damn... the other two could be added on as optional extras if required later on.

    The L band radar are fitted to the wing leading edge and take up space otherwise used for fuel or forward looking sensors or nothing.

    Regarding engine nozzles... they can be changed fairly easily... the engines are not that close together and angled slightly outwards anyway so whichever arrangement they pick shouldn't be a problem.


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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  Austin on Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:02 pm

    Press conference of "Saturn"

    http://www.aviaport.ru/news/2013/07/15/259336.html

    On the engine for the PAK FA

    Asked by reporters on the engine for a prospective fifth-generation fighter being developed by the program "promising aviation complex tactical aircraft" (PAK FA), I.Fedorov noted that work is being done extremely well under the leadership of chief designer STC them. Arkhip Cradles Eugene Marchukova. Design Bureau NPO "Saturn", headed by chief designer Yuri Shmotinym, did a great job on the new gas generator engine characteristics have turned out much better than expected by the customer. Now comes the final configuration of the motor and coordination with the Yakovlev Design Bureau. Dry questions on placing the engine on the aircraft. President of JSC "UAC" Mikhail Pogosyan puts a condition that the engine installed in the aircraft without any change in the support (now at T-50 or PAK FA fighter jet engines are installed ed. "117" before the new engine). Installing the engine of the second stage will dramatically increase the speed of the aircraft, as the increase traction and acceleration, in addition, the engine will be easier.

    It should be noted that one of the conditions for the developer fighter is the price of a new engine - it should not be higher than the price of the engine, "ed. 117", which is set today, and this demand will be met and maintained. The engine in the production of the most cost-effective when it is released in large series, as it is today, for example, the engine AL-31 FP / FN in Moscow "Salute" and Ufa MPO. Today, there is confidence that even at half of the series, which now is, the production of the new engine will be cost-effective. Now an estimated price corresponds to the engine "izd.117."

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  Y2J on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:44 pm

    5th-Gen fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost

    NEW DELHI: India's biggest defence project in the making, the critical joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia, has flown into some rough weather.

    Defence ministry sources said the inking of the final design and R&D contract for the stealth fighter has been hit by a huge delay, with Russia also jacking up costs for the futuristic project. "It's very unlikely the FGFA final design contract will be concluded in the 2013-2014 fiscal," said a source.

    This contract was to be inked in 2012 as per the then revised timeline after completion of the preliminary design contract (PD C) phase. India will eventually end up spending close to $35 billion over the next two decades to induct over 200 such "swing-role" fighters.

    The plan till last year was that India would begin inducting the FGFA from 2022 onwards, with IAF test pilots getting three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019 for trials at the Hindustan Aeronautics manufacturing facility at Ozar.

    "The timeframes will now have to be revised. MoD has established a committee of specialists and finance officials to verify the rise in costs. An internal contract negotiation committee is also in progress," said the source.

    But India remains firm about rejecting the US offer for joining its Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) or the F-35 'Lightning-II' programme. "A lot of money and time has been invested in the FGFA with Russia. India simply cannot afford two FGFAs, both financially as well as logistically" he said.

    The 18-month PDC worth $295 million for the FGFA with Russia was inked in December 2010, under which Indian designers and scientists have even been stationed in Russia to work out the blueprints and documentation for the fighter.

    Though the Indian "perspective multi-role fighter" will be based on the Russian single-seat FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA, which now has four prototypes flying, it will be tweaked to IAF requirements. IAF had initially pitched for 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters but will go for only single-cockpit jets now to reduce costs as well as protect stealth features.

    The final design contract now being negotiated was pegged at $11 billion, with India and Russia sharing $5.5 billion each towards the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. Each fighter was to cost over $100 million.

    IAF is quite confident the T-50 will meet its future requirements. Apart from ultra-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, the FGFA will carry its weapons inside the fuselage to lower its radar signature. With a cruising speed of Mach 1.7 to 1.8, it has both long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities.

    IAF is currently making do with just 34 fighter squadrons (each has 14 to 18 jets) despite needing at least 44 to keep both Pakistan and China at bay. It's banking upon the ongoing induction of 270 Russian Sukhoi-30MKIs for around $12 billion as well as the early inking of the almost $20 billion project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to plug operational gaps till the FGFA becomes a reality.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:25 am

    There has been a lot in regards to hate towards FGFA program from India, and it is no secret that organizations within India is payed by others (not pointing fingers) to protest such procurements. Actually, there are western backed organizations who get people to protest the opening of nuclear power plant in South India that is developed by Russia. There is very little word on regarding about funding for FGFA, and since FGFA is a two seater variant using some other components from other countries on board, India is getting away quite easily with its development as Russia footed most of the bill, while F-35 is once again, prolonged to 2019 as there are development issues (yet again) and cost overruns of unprecidented proportions

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323873904578573502455715108.html

    That being said, there were issues regarding Su-30MKI, with its Thales/Israeli avionics and the FBW components not working well together. This could very well be the cost overruns in trying to make sure that it would work well. But apparently, PAK FA is not showing any signs of cost overruns, so why FGFA? I think there is something else in the background going on.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:58 am

    That article has no specifics, only "sources" predicting problems.

    Pass.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:39 am

    TR1 wrote:That article has no specifics, only "sources" predicting problems.

    Pass.

    Which one? Mine or what Y2J stated?

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:45 am

    Let me repeat two quotes from the one article...

    India will eventually end up spending close to $35 billion over the next two decades to induct over 200 such "swing-role" fighters.

    and
    It's banking upon the ongoing induction of 270 Russian Sukhoi-30MKIs for around $12 billion as well as the early inking of the almost $20 billion project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to plug operational gaps till the FGFA becomes a reality.

    Lets look at those numbers again... 35 billion for 200 Russian and Indian 5th gen fighters, almost 20 billion for 126 French 4th gen fighters, and 12 billion for 270 joint developed Russian Indian 4th gen fighters.

    I think one foreign country is screwing India and I also think they are not wearing a FRENCH letter (ie Condom).

    Local production is always more expensive but the price of 126 Rafales is theft. Nice aircraft but no Su-30MKI+, and certainly no PAK FA.


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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:48 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:That article has no specifics, only "sources" predicting problems.

    Pass.

    Which one?  Mine or what Y2J stated?

    The one above yours.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:52 am

    Garry:

    The French prices are pretty absurd.
    Look no further than the Mirage 2000 upgrade: something like 2 billion USD for sub 50 airframes.

    No clue why India is even bothering with such a price hike, they have a handful of better options.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:01 pm

    The General Perception in India and even among MOD is Russian prices are cheaper but they screw in Spares and Support and they get delayed always.

    American system are expensive ( very expensive ) so goes for France but they deliver on time and spares/support is available even though its expensive.

    The only way Russian system look ahead is charge as much as US and French do or slightly lower but provide on time service and charge more for spare/support but provide it on time/quality.

    We got C-17 at almost ~ $450 million per aircraft but US started deliveries of it.

    I think Russia will end up loosing on this front in long run is they think India will buy because its cheap , We can afford to pay more atleast the Governement thinks so but we need quality and on time.

    Ofcourse neither US not France provides as much TOT as Russia does so no need for Russian to oblige either as it does not make much difference.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:05 pm

    The Supply problems should dissipate basically as new aircraft are built.

    Legacy birds suffered from collapse of USSR, and pit the country was in. Plus, components had to be sourced from over the place, a complete mess.
    I don't see such an occurrence with PAK-FA, or other new projects.

    C-17 has a huge production line that was just churning out birds for the USAF.
    In Russia on the other hand most lines stalled and were without work for a number of years post USSR (with exceptions like Mi-8 ).

    Another trend is Russian weapons will get more expensive with time.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:12 pm

    Surprisingly I havent heard much complain as I hear from India on Russian Weapons and Equipment , may be because we are the largest users of it.

    Or it could be that there is something to it. Back during FSU days Russia perceived friendly nation where nothing could go wrong and now it is a case of every thing could go wrong.

    I believe slowly but surely India will buy more US equipment over Russian ones.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:15 pm

    Most contracts did not have anything to do with spare parts.  Apparently, all contracts afterwards were for spare parts, and Russia was caught unprepared.  Apparently, new contracts made, also account for spare parts as well to be delievered on time.  India did not go much for spare parts as they relied on their own.
     
    As well, MiG-29K's were on target, same with Su-30MKI's.  Apparently it is only the aircraft carrier that isn't.  Talwar at first faced issues but as orderes increased, so did production quality.

    Austin wrote:Surprisingly I havent heard much complain as I hear from India on Russian Weapons and Equipment , may be because we are the largest users of it.

    Or it could be that there is something to it. Back during FSU days Russia perceived friendly nation where nothing could go wrong and now it is a case of every thing could go wrong.

    I believe slowly but surely India will buy more US equipment over Russian ones.

    I hope your government is prepared to get raped then. USA could very well place embargos (again) on India, as well as they supply your major enemy, Pakistan. Also, not to mention, Russia provides sales for transfer of technology, as well as the ability that your country builds certain amount as well. Your government and its quality control is also to blame, especially for many of the jets built in India. India will face the same issue with American made equipment, no doubt about it. Look at attrition rate of Pakistan equipment, coming from USA. It isn't much better.

    Regardless, I never thought India was a good partner for Russia. If India wants to get screwed with the F-35 deal, then I say all for it.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:17 pm

    It's certainly possible. On the other hand Russia will be in a good position to increase its exports in the next decade as the new equipment for the Armed Forces modernizations enters service.

    One downside is Russia is very likely to reconsider its "special" relationship with India in terms of under-the-table defense transfers, if this happens.
    But, business is business. States have interests, not friendships.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:It's certainly possible. On the other hand Russia will be in a good position to increase its exports in the next decade as the new equipment for the Armed Forces modernizations enters service.

    One downside is Russia is very likely to reconsider its "special" relationship with India in terms of under-the-table defense transfers, if this happens.
    But, business is business. States have interests, not friendships.
     
    Exactly, there was a time recently where Pakistan was interested in Russian military equipment.  At that, Pakistan is a great opportunity for Russian enterprises to exercise in, as Pakistan is a heavily undeveloped country, where certain companies could really thrive (Energy industry, as well as construction).
     
    I think it may be a good idea for Russia to look at its dual investment with India in terms of military equipment.  PAK FA was completely funded by Russia and India is getting off with a dual seat version, and Russia paid for most of it.  If India is not happy with Russian equipment, then maybe it is best for Russia to dump the agreement, let India waste its money elsewhere, and Russia could then sell off the PAK FA and FGFA to whomever they please.  India could very well trade off specific secrets of the equipment and Russia could be in trouble.

    KnAAPO control the development of PAK FA, and any other subcontractor dealing with its components. Since it will be the new aircraft, it will be more than likely have a fully supply chain catered to its needs (spare parts). I am not entirely sure as to whom Irkutsk gets its spares from, but I have not heard a single complaint. Majority of complaints is either slow aquisition of Su-30MKI (which was an issue when it first started back in the late 90's) and MiG-21BIS (old ass aircraft should have been out of commission already, and that is the major military equipment that Indians love to use against Russia in the media).

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:51 pm

    The Indo-Russian defence relationship is such that there is a rule that Russia will not sell defence equipment to Pakistan and Pakistan does not have much money to buy either.

    The only hope for Russia besides India is China and they arnt buying much either.

    I believe what ever happens atleast in the next decade some big deals are in progress or could be signed.

    FGFA ,Indo-Russian MTA , Brahmos-2/Brahmos , 2nd Line of Submarine not sure but something else might come up too.

    I think where Indo Russia truly lack is trade relationship we are just $10 billion in Trade and back then during FSU days our tade numbers were $35 billion.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:54 pm

    Austin wrote:The Indo-Russian defence relationship is such that there is a rule that Russia will not sell defence equipment to Pakistan and Pakistan does not have much money to buy either.

    The only hope for Russia besides India is China and they arnt buying much either.

    I believe what ever happens atleast in the next decade some big deals are in progress or could be signed.

    FGFA ,Indo-Russian MTA , Brahmos-2/Brahmos , 2nd Line of Submarine  not sure but something else might come up too.

    I think where Indo Russia truly lack is trade relationship we are just $10 billion in Trade and back then during FSU days our tade numbers were $35 billion.

    A lot of countries dude, you are not the only one. As you said yourself, sales of Russian equipment to India fell yet Russian military equipment sales have risen. China is one of them, Vietnam, Venezuela, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc etc etc. Pakistan could be on the list. If your government decided to call bail. Wouldn't be too surprised either.

    Don't think that your country is special in any way, cause it is far from it.

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    Re: PAK FA, T-50: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:59 pm

    AFAIK India account for 40 % of Russian military sale or is it 30 % its off my head.

    So it will remain so for a long time to come , Since US and Israel Intel are very active in India and a lot of Indian official are very pro-US because their friends relatives family are settled there or would want to be H1B holder then its bound to get reflected.

    Any ways India and US have lot of friction among them , including the Nuclear Deal where US has some condition where India cannot accept and US support to Pakistan .

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