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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    nightcrawler
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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 11 Empty Re: PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  nightcrawler Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:25 pm

    Here is the reply
    You are correct. Radar cross section (RCS) values of a complex body changes with respect to the viewer. An appropriate analogy is that you see a different part of a car as you do your 'walk-around'. The only body that has a constant RCS regardless of perspective is the sphere.


    Not clutter detection but clutter rejection. I will try to understand your question and answer accordingly...

    In the initial stages of radar identification (detection) of an object, EVERYTHING is detected. Then the majority of those signals are compared against a table of known signals (electrical characteristics) that we do not want to send to video integration (display). That table is called 'clutter rejection' and we can add or remove signals as we wish, even on the fly. That is called 'clutter rejection threshold'.

    The few remaining signals that are above this threshold are sent to the next stage where much more complex algorithms begins to work on discrete elements of these signals. For example, if the radar is looking 'up' we know we are not looking at the ground with its features like hills, cluster of plants, moving animals, flying birds, etc...So we lower the clutter rejection threshold by removing electrical characteristics that matches 'hills, cluster of plants, moving animals, flying birds, etc...' from that table. It can be like a loop if the radar is alternating between looking 'up' or 'down'.

    So if we are looking 'up' and therefore we are looking at relatively 'empty' or an electrically speaking 'calm' background, any complex body that is radiating EM signals will appear as a cluster and the cluster will look like this bit of a mess...

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 11 Airlin10

    These complex algorithms have their own complex tables to work this cluster against. For example, we know that that the complex body known as an 'aircraft' has certain physical structures that will be common to most aircrafts out there, such as a vertical stabilator all the way to the rear of the body, two horizontal stabs at the same location, a cavity (exhaust) at the same location, and so on...If this cluster exhibit electrical characteristics that are within a certain statistical range of a table, then the radar computer will flag this cluster as a 'valid' target and send it to video integration (display).

    Now we have a problem if the radar is looking 'down' meaning at the ground with its 'hills, cluster of plants, moving animals, flying birds, etc...'.

    The goal of video integration is to display something that is meaningful to the 'meatbag' that is sitting in front of the display...Laughing...The radar computer is essentially saying: 'What a moron this meatbag really is. I have to clear up so much crap just so the moron can understand what is in front of him.'

    So if there are 'hills, cluster of plants, moving animals, flying birds, etc...' that are in the system, it can be very difficult display the complex body called 'aircraft' in a meaningful manner. So the system loop back to the first stage, cranks up the clutter rejection threshold, and process any cluster of signals that is above this threshold. Remember, this cluster of a complex body is ALWAYS there, only now that it is being surrounded by many other clusters. But because it is surrounded by other clusters, it can be very difficult to mark this cluster as an 'aircraft'.

    The radar computer's thought process goes like this:

    - We have a cluster of electrical signals.

    - We see that the cluster is above the clutter rejection threshold.

    - We see that the cluster's individual electrical characteristics matches a table labeled 'aircraft'.

    - We will mark this cluster as 'aircraft' and send it to display so the meatbag can understand what the hell are we seeing.

    This is why military aircrafts have this tactic of using the Earth as an electrical cover just in case they are being hunted by a radar looking down. There are no guarantees that this cover will work, but air combat history proved that the odds of survival increases when the tactic is employed in many situations.


    RCS reduction methods tries to insert the cluster into the clutter rejection threshold even if the radar is looking 'up' or against relatively electrically 'calm' background. The nose-on aspect is always the lowest RCS value, but if it is above the 'calm sky' clutter background, that RCS value will be flagged. If it is below that 'calm sky' clutter background, it will not be flagged. Now add the Earth's electrical mess into the mix, then the 'stealth' aircraft is practically 'invisible'. This is why radar systems prefers to look 'up' whenever possible.

    This is why 'stealth' aircrafts are such threats: They are usually automatically inserted into the lowest clutter rejection threshold by most radar systems.
    nightcrawler
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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 11 Empty Re: PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  nightcrawler Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:30 pm

    @Garry

    If everything is detected by radar and is then processed and rejected or accepted and displayed why are some radar X band and some Ka band and some L band?

    I mean if radar detects everything why are specific frequency radars used for weather radars and long range search radars and short range tracking radars?
    Because changing the frequency changes the distance to which an enemy aircraft can be detected...A mix of radar frequencies gurantee that you detect aircraft at maximum range

    Another question of course springs to mind... how was the signal "processed" in early radars in the middle of the last century when there were no electronic computers?
    can't answer that for now...will ask it
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    Post  GarryB Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:56 am

    Because changing the frequency changes the distance to which an enemy aircraft can be detected...A mix of radar frequencies gurantee that you detect aircraft at maximum range

    From my limited knowledge high frequency radars like X band radars are used for detection and tracking because of their accuracy, while weather radars see water droplets and clouds and other things fighter pilots are not interested in.

    Detection range has more to do with pulse repetition frequency so that the speed of the antenna turning is low enough so that the signal has time to go out to the max range and come back while the antenna is still facing that direction.

    This is why 'stealth' aircrafts are such threats: They are usually automatically inserted into the lowest clutter rejection threshold by most radar systems.

    So the Russians didn't need to waste money on AESA radars, they just needed to change the clutter rejection tables to include an approximation of an F-22 and an F-35 and a B-2 and all of a sudden their existing radars should be able to detect and track stealth targets?
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    Post  Austin Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:16 am

    Got it via email , Communication system for 5th Gen aircraft

    PROMISING GROWTH PATHS FOR AIRBORNE COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEMS
    Military Parade 2011
    Author: Alexei Komyakov, Konstantin Voytkevich
    Alexei Komyakov - director general of FSUE NPP Polyot.
    Konstantin Voytkevich - director for research, deputy designer general

    FSUE NPP Polyot (Nizhny Novgorod) is a leading Russian developer and manufacturer of aircraft radio communications equipment and has the status of the Federal Research and Production Center. It conducts R&D, carries out full-scale production and upgrades its earlier products.

    Standard radio communications systems for new Gen 4++ and 5 aircraft occupy an important role in Polyot's R&D efforts. Equipping modern combat aircraft systems with the latest electronics helps integrate them into the Air Force's information management system, which provides the crew with complete information for task accomplishment in real time.

    NPP Polyot develops communications systems using the integrated modular avionics (IMA) technology. Technically, the IMA computer system is defined as a set consisting of crates that comprise a set of common modules and communicate via a unified digital network. To achieve maximum effect from implementing the IMA technology, a comprehensive approach to building an avionics suite on an aircraft is required. The crates ensure the installation of modules, their communication with each other, and heat removal. Cooperation between modules is done via a motherboard carrying power supply circuits, low-speed interfaces, high-speed serial interface circuit and a PCI bus.

    The performance level of advanced communications systems is characterized by high quality of data and voice transmission, improved consumer properties, compatibility with avionics, guaranteed reliability and broad applications, practical implementation of the software-defined radio concept. All non-unified communication functions are software- rather than hardware-implemented, allowing their adaptation to future changes in requirements without costly upgrades.

    The software-defined radios use modern integrated microelectronics, open architecture for operation in a wide frequency range, from 2 MHz to 6 GHz, provide data and voice transmission.

    The novelty of the developed systems lies in the software implementation of the maximum possible number of required functions and the use of several basic technologies: network interfaces and the user interface, opportunities for remote booting and upgrading the whole software and the necessary code to configure turn-on of all equipment. Accessibility of all system elements providing their reconfiguration and setup on the part of the network, the use of versatile hardware platforms, allowing software implementation of the most diverse functions on them, as well as software-based data security methods are of great importance.

    The design of the system's equipment corresponds to the standard series defined by state standards and allows quickly building up its functionality.

    All of these solutions and technologies have been implemented in NPP Polyot-developed S-111 communications system for a future Gen 5 fighter. Its main features are as follows:

    - fully digital architecture allowing a significant reduction in the system weight and dimensions;

    - improved communications quality and reliability;

    - use of modular design makes it possible to increase the number of channels and scope of functions;

    - re-programmability, i.e., the capability to store and use different algorithms without hardware modifications;

    - a single internal information network reducing the number and range of interfaces used;

    - software implementation of most of the functions, modulation types and emission classes together with the possibility of rapidly changing the types of operation;

    - use of the Baget 2.0 standard operating system simplifying the development and improvement of the system's software modules;

    - software implementation of operation modes with increased jamming immunity;

    - low power consumption;

    - operation via high-speed channels at up to 40 Mbps with the capability to transmit different types of information (video, data, voice).

    Transceiver modules installed in the S-111 system enable operation in the HF, VHF/UHF, SHF bands: provide communication in a unified communications, navigation, identification and data transmission system and in satellite communication channels. It is possible to include radios operating in other bands in the system.

    As part of a fifth-generation fighter, the S-111 system has ensured the successful accomplishment of over 60 test flights.

    Versions of the system are planned to be installed on different objects operated by the Russian Ministry of Defense and foreign customers. Work is underway to adapt the system to the helicopters, long-range and military transport aircraft as well as to ground communications centers.
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    Post  Cyberspec Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:24 am

    Great find. Thanks Very Happy
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:01 pm



    This is my scaling result... from Paralay's PAKFA sketch well i hope it's accurate.

    Wing Reference Area : 90,32 m
    Total Wetted Area : 438 Sqm
    Cdo Subsonic : 0,017 curiously..this is the same value as Raptor (0,017) and larger than JSF (0,014)
    L/D Max Subsonic : 9,9 , in Supersonic mode however i expect L/D of 6 or 7
    Wing Sweep : 72,6 Deg
    Root Chord : 10,8 m
    Tip Chord : 1,48 m
    Taper Ratio :0,14
    Aspect Ratio : 2,36
    MAC :7,32 m .

    RADOME-
    Width : 1.28 m
    Height : 1.1 m
    Maximum Radome Area : 1.03 Sqm

    The Antenna however would be smaller.. assuming edge treatment for antenna structural mode in X-band (3 cm wavelength) ..which would be around 4 times wavelength (thus 3*4=12) .. i expect the maximum antenna area available for the RADAR is 0,89 Sqm .
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    Post  Austin Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:40 am

    Air International September 2011 on MAKS

    MAKS 2011
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:22 am

    And that article highlights what is wrong currently in Russian military equipment procurements...

    It is not longer the future users of the hardware that sign the deal, it is accountants and penny pinchers who are mainly interested in saving money.

    It is the main reason the west gets all its gear from the lowest bidder...

    They introduce the AN-140 and are accepting it for all sorts of things after the crap they got from Antonov under the previous anti Russian Ukrainian government they got shafted over spares and support agreements for their in service Antonovs, and now they cancel a Russian aircraft design in favour of a foreign design???

    BTW they might not have anything in the current plans up to 2020 for a light stealth fighter, but in 6-7 years time when the costs of the PAK FA are found to be quite large there will likely be suggestions for a lighter cheaper stealth aircraft using (by then) mature materials and production facilities.

    The simple thing you have to ask yourself is... if they don't build a new light stealth fighter what else are they going to do... keep making Mig-35s forever?

    It was the same with tanks... UVZ might have had T-95 cancelled on them after a lot of work and time, but all that work and time was not wasted because Armata will likely incorporate all the best stuff from the T-95. Any stuff they weren't happy with that was imposed by some cold war consideration could now be changed too with the fresh design start, so the Armata, like the next Russian light stealth fighter will just be better for it.
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    Post  Austin Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:42 pm

    Update on PAK-FA from Air International/Piotr Butowski


    T-50 Part-1 https://i.servimg.com/u/f44/15/54/62/79/t-50-110.jpg

    T-50 Part-2 https://i.servimg.com/u/f44/15/54/62/79/t-50-210.jpg

    T-50 Part-3 https://i.servimg.com/u/f44/15/54/62/79/t-50-310.jpg


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    Post  Cyberspec Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:17 am

    On the Pak Fa engine (english subs)....some interesting stuff mentioned
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    Post  Russian Patriot Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:23 am




    Third Sukhoi T -50 stealth fighter ‘to fly soon’



    © RIA Novosti. Alexei Druzhinin
    15:57 27/10/2011
    MOSCOW, October 27 (RIA Novosti) -
    Tags: T-50, Russia

    Russia’s third prototype Sukhoi T-50 fifth generation fighter will be ready to take to the skies in the near future, a military industry source said on Thursday.

    The T-50 fifth-generation fighter

    “It will fly when the designers are absolutely confident in their product,” the source said.

    The assembly of the fourth fighter is “in the final stages of completion,” he added.

    The T-50 made its maiden flight in January and two prototypes have since been undergoing flight tests.

    The T-50, developed under the program PAK FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) at the Sukhoi OKB, is Russia's first new major warplane designed since the fall of the Soviet Union.

    It is expected to enter service in 2016.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20111027/168170067.html

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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:50 am

    Will be interesting to see what changes there are to this new prototype.

    I wonder when they will start testing the optical systems?
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    Post  Cyberspec Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:26 am

    GarryB wrote:Will be interesting to see what changes there are to this new prototype.

    I wonder when they will start testing the optical systems?

    T-50-3 should have a radar mounted but I'm not sure about OEIS system. I gather that it's nose will be of composite material as opposed to metal on the first 2 prototypes.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:49 am

    I would suspect if it is fitted with the nose radar antenna then there will be plenty to test and integrate... it will be interesting to see if they have one or all three nose antenna fitted.

    It would make sense to get the main forward facing radar working and then as testing continues add the side arrays and integrate them second, but it would obviously make sense to have the positions ready for the arrays including radar transparant radomes and perhaps even all three arrays fitted but to work on one radar at a time to get them right before moving to the next array.

    These radars will likely have already gone through a few tests on other platforms with more space for testing equipment... I remember for the Tu-160 radar testbed they use a Tu-134 for the radar and crew compartment with loads of testing and recording equipment in the rear.
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    Post  Ogannisyan8887 Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:23 am

    I heard that the PAK FA will only carry 4 missiles in its main weapon bays, is it true. Question
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:45 am

    AFAIK it will be able to carry 4 RVV-BD like long range missiles internally, I would expect its capacity for medium range and short range missiles will be larger.

    Of course it will not be able to carry as many weapons as the Su-35, which makes the latter aircraft still a useful addition to the AF.

    The depth of the weapon bay might allow 4 medium range missiles to be mounted side by side with their rear grid fins folded, the weapon bay is probably long enough for two rows of 4, though it might just hold 3 abreast for a total of 6 missiles.

    The standard R-77 weapon pylon includes a catapult that pushes the missile down and clear of the air craft before launch (ie engine start).

    Because of this you could use the depth of the weapon bay to have 4 launchers at different heights to fit the 4 missiles.

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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:49 am

    It carries 4 M-R or 4 L-R missiles due to the design of the launcher mechanism.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:01 am

    I have read it has two types of weapon "launchers".

    These have either a 300kg capacity (for AAMs and light bombs) and 700kg capacity for heavier weapons.

    These launchers are catapults that push the weapon down and clear of the weapon bay and aircraft when the weapon is fired.

    Obviously simply releasing them is not good enough as the slip stream travelling past the aircraft risks pushing a weapon that is just released and not thrown down up back into the launch aircraft or into the side or rear of the weapon bay.

    They are developing all new weapons and upgrading some existing weapons for internal use on the PAK FA, the R-77 was originally designed for internal carriage as its rear grid fins fold forward and should fit at least three abreast in the internal bay of the PAK FA.
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    Post  Austin Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:11 pm

    Check the latest issue of Take Off , Has updates on PAK-FA , Interview with AESA Radar Designers and Weapons system.

    http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to21.pdf


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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:08 am

    Well the first thing I notice is the Ka-52 on the cover... 6 weapons pylons...

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    Post  Austin Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:12 pm

    HAL/Sukhoi FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER AIRCRAFT (FGFA)

    http://hal-india.com/futureproducts/products.asp

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 11 FGFA

    The proposed FGFA will have air combat superiority, high tactical capability, group action capability in the regions even with poor communication support. The aircraft will have advanced features like

     Increased Stealth - Low radar cross-section (RCS), Internal deployment of weaponry
     Supersonic cruise and supersonic maneuvering capability
     Data link and network centric warfare capability.

    Technical Parameters

    Length : 22.6 m

    Height : 5.9 m

    MTOW : 34 Ton

    Range : 3880 km

    Speed : 2 Mach

    Max Weapon Load : 2.25 Ton (Int.) & 5.75 Ton (Ext)

    Thrust Vectoring : With Jet Nozzle (±15 º)

    Engine Thrust : 2X1400 kgf

    FGFA will be co-developed with Russians. Sukhoi Design Bureau (SDB) has been selected as the Russian agency for this development project.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:49 am

    A little under powered isn't it? Smile

    To be honest that computer graphic makes it look like an F-15.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:A little under powered isn't it? Smile

    To be honest that computer graphic makes it look like an F-15.

    apparently the artist take a shortcut by modifying Su-30MKI model Cool
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    Post  medo Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:35 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2011/11/22/t50/

    In Komsomolsk-on-Amur today was the first flight of the third prototype of PAK-FA T-50-3. There were rumors that the third prototype is equipped with AESA radar.
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    Post  Austin Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:03 pm

    T-50-3 First Flight

    http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=377869

    Sponsored content


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