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Yeah, yeah, but they would be a *killer* with even better avionics.
AESA or PESA... I doubt the target would know the difference... but with an AESA that size I suspect the person paying for the radar will notice the difference.
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MiG-31BM/Κ Interceptor/Attack aircraft: News
GarryB- Posts : 38920
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
AESA or PESA... I doubt the target would know the difference... but with an AESA that size I suspect the person paying for the radar will notice the difference.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
Yeah... Interceptors should always have the bast avionics suite due to their role.GarryB wrote:Yeah, yeah, but they would be a *killer* with even better avionics.
AESA or PESA... I doubt the target would know the difference... but with an AESA that size I suspect the person paying for the radar will notice the difference.
GarryB- Posts : 38920
Points : 39416
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
I don't agree.
If it can do the job with something cheaper you can deploy it in much greater numbers and then when the bleeding edge technology gets cheaper you can make an upgrade for later and get high tech and numbers.
If it can do the job with something cheaper you can deploy it in much greater numbers and then when the bleeding edge technology gets cheaper you can make an upgrade for later and get high tech and numbers.
medo- Posts : 4342
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Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
What difference would AESA make for MiG-31BM comparing to modernized PESA radar it have? It is not multirole plane, but interceptor and for this role Zaslon-AM is good enough. It have 300+ km range, track 24 targets and engage 8 of them. MiG-31BM carry max. 8 AA missiles, so current radar cover all its needs. As radar doesn't need ground attack modes, new radar computers could better work with ECCM and air operation modes.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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Join date : 2014-06-19
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You have a great point. However, because an interceptors role is last-point defense, they should be equipped with the cutting edge. "A great defense is the best offense."GarryB wrote:I don't agree.
If it can do the job with something cheaper you can deploy it in much greater numbers and then when the bleeding edge technology gets cheaper you can make an upgrade for later and get high tech and numbers.
medo- Posts : 4342
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Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
Bars and Irbis are also PESA radars and they are excellent radars. Zaslon-AM is big PESA radar and as it is not multirole radar, all its new electronics build inside and working modes are for air engagements, so I doubt Zaslon is in air engagements any worse than Bars or Irbis radar. But regarding Zaslon radar, there is one good question. Original Zaslon radar also operate in L-band to support R-40 AAMs. I wonder if Zaslon-AM in MiG-31BM still have L-band capabilities or only X-band. L-band could better see stealth planes and also is better against ECM as majority of planes ECM are in X-band, not in L-band.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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Join date : 2014-06-19
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They are great radar systems, and I never said otherwise.... AESA would help increase jamming capabilities and detection etc, and those abilities are very important when it comes to interceptions... Also, I mean *better avionics in general and not just AESA*, which I should have mentioned earlier versus later.medo wrote:Bars and Irbis are also PESA radars and they are excellent radars. Zaslon-AM is big PESA radar and as it is not multirole radar, all its new electronics build inside and working modes are for air engagements, so I doubt Zaslon is in air engagements any worse than Bars or Irbis radar. But regarding Zaslon radar, there is one good question. Original Zaslon radar also operate in L-band to support R-40 AAMs. I wonder if Zaslon-AM in MiG-31BM still have L-band capabilities or only X-band. L-band could better see stealth planes and also is better against ECM as majority of planes ECM are in X-band, not in L-band.
I am not sure in all honesty... Either way, L-band receivers have to be extremely large (due to "detail" of the object, or lack thereof) to be of any use, so IMHO it isn't a big deal.
medo- Posts : 4342
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R-40 missiles were in 2 versions, SARH and IR, so L-band in Zaslon radar should be fully operational to work with R-40 missile as it could not work with X-band. Keeping L-band in Zaslon-AM, although MiG-31BM doesn't use R-40 missiles, could give good capabilities against stealth planes and anti jam capabilities as majority of ECM equipment is for X-band. It could still give enough small cell to use with IR guided AAMs like R-73 or larger IR version of R-77 or R-27. Of course L-band is a one of reasons, why Zaslon radar is so big and heavy.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
In all honesty, my point still stands.... How is a receiver the size of the Zaslon going to be able to accurately find and track stealth aircraft? It simply can't be done accurately and/or consistently. - This makes me wonder what the L-band systems on the PAK-FA are for... They are *way* too small to do anything, or so I think. How does L-band frequencies jam X-band ones? The West primarily uses S and X-bands in their jets, which (of course) an L-band frequency can't jam.medo wrote:R-40 missiles were in 2 versions, SARH and IR, so L-band in Zaslon radar should be fully operational to work with R-40 missile as it could not work with X-band. Keeping L-band in Zaslon-AM, although MiG-31BM doesn't use R-40 missiles, could give good capabilities against stealth planes and anti jam capabilities as majority of ECM equipment is for X-band. It could still give enough small cell to use with IR guided AAMs like R-73 or larger IR version of R-77 or R-27. Of course L-band is a one of reasons, why Zaslon radar is so big and heavy.
medo- Posts : 4342
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Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
I think you didn't understand me correctly. I didn't say, that L-band radar will jam western X-band radars, but I say, majority of western jammers are for X-band and radar working in L-band is immune for those jammers. RAM coat on stealth planes is also designed for X-band radars, so they are not that stealth for L-band. R-40 (AA-6) have 60 km range, so L-band radar inside Zaslon have 60+ km range to make R-40 missile fully operational. There is big possibility, that Mig-31 will first detect stealth plane in L-band, than in X-band and with IRST. After all, Russians also build L-band AESA complexes for Su-35 and PAK-FA.
sepheronx- Posts : 8527
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Age : 34
Location : Canada
Right now, popular belief of those L band AESA radars on the wings of Su-35/PAK FA are simply transponders. But who knows. Medo is right though Mike, Stealth in its form protects from X band frequencies but due to L band frequencies being very high, the Stealth aircraft will fall within its wavelength and hence can be detected. There is also belief that Ka band radar can also detect stealth too.
Add in that the aircrafts will try to detect stealth jets through IRST (IRST on Su-35 is upwards to 100km detection) and sensors picking up radiation from the enemies radar (if it is turned on. There is a chance it could be turned off and they rely on picking up the targets via an AWACS aircraft nearby, but then there is radiation from the signals as well, which could end up being picked up and jammed).
Add in that the aircrafts will try to detect stealth jets through IRST (IRST on Su-35 is upwards to 100km detection) and sensors picking up radiation from the enemies radar (if it is turned on. There is a chance it could be turned off and they rely on picking up the targets via an AWACS aircraft nearby, but then there is radiation from the signals as well, which could end up being picked up and jammed).
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
I've known that for years, and that is the reason I am a big advocator of it on the ground and/or ocean. It does have one major problem though, that they can't perform well unless they have large receivers. If not, the definition is almost unusable. Hence the reason the West prefers to use X-band only on their jets.sepheronx wrote:Right now, popular belief of those L band AESA radars on the wings of Su-35/PAK FA are simply transponders. But who knows. Medo is right though Mike, Stealth in its form protects from X band frequencies but due to L band frequencies being very high, the Stealth aircraft will fall within its wavelength and hence can be detected. There is also belief that Ka band radar can also detect stealth too.
Add in that the aircrafts will try to detect stealth jets through IRST (IRST on Su-35 is upwards to 100km detection) and sensors picking up radiation from the enemies radar (if it is turned on. There is a chance it could be turned off and they rely on picking up the targets via an AWACS aircraft nearby, but then there is radiation from the signals as well, which could end up being picked up and jammed).
IRST is great....
Last edited by Mike E on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total
medo- Posts : 4342
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Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
We still do not know, what capabilities and function L-band AESA complex in Su-35 and PAK-FA have, but I doubt it is only an IFF transponder. But when we talk about L-band in Zaslon radar in MiG-31, it have to be operational radar to work with R-40 (AA-6) missile. Zaslon is multi-band radar working in X and L-band and I'm sure it's computer combine data from both bands as well as from IRST to provide clearer picture and to make it more immune on jamming. I think Russians were smart enough, when they modernize Zaslon radar to Zaslon-AM radar for MiG-31BM to improve capabilities in both bands with new electronics to increase range, speed, ECCM capabilities, number of tracked and engaged targets, etc. They didn't have to change anything in radar antenna, only in electronics behind antenna.
medo- Posts : 4342
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksQbmbZjAOc
Here is an interesting video about standard MiG-31 fighter. At 2:37 and 5:21 you could see an interesting navigation device, where is a map of area and position of planed marked with a cross and arrow mark direction of flying. As I doubt this is a paper map device, I would like to ask, if this map is based on microfilm and could be also a moving map and plane marker could be a simple mechanical light connected with autopilot and show position of plane on the map? I doubt this is a CRT display to show a map and position of plane.
How many other planes were equipped with similar navigational device?
Here is an interesting video about standard MiG-31 fighter. At 2:37 and 5:21 you could see an interesting navigation device, where is a map of area and position of planed marked with a cross and arrow mark direction of flying. As I doubt this is a paper map device, I would like to ask, if this map is based on microfilm and could be also a moving map and plane marker could be a simple mechanical light connected with autopilot and show position of plane on the map? I doubt this is a CRT display to show a map and position of plane.
How many other planes were equipped with similar navigational device?
GarryB- Posts : 38920
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Actually I think this looks like a map plotter... similar to one fitted to the Hind in the early 1980s.
This one seems a bit more sophisticated in that the position of the aircraft is lit from under the paper map.
Very simply you open the top layer and put a paper map on it and close the lid.
The position of the aircraft is calibrated along with the scale of the map and the map is oriented to the correct direction.
In flight a moving cursor (on the hind) or lit lamp showing through the map tells the pilot roughly where he is and the direction he is facing.
I haven't seen the other symbology before, but that could simply consist of layers added to represent waypoints or threats or targets.
By the early 2000s modern avionics with map generation capability in real time based on location with symbology overlay became available on Russian aircraft upgrades, but no money had been spend in 1997 for that sort of thing to be available then.
Cheap, simple and does the job... not as sophisticated or capable as a modern system though.
I suspect the MiG-31BM with its multifunction display and improved nav would likely have moving map capability as navigation is critical near the north pole...
This one seems a bit more sophisticated in that the position of the aircraft is lit from under the paper map.
Very simply you open the top layer and put a paper map on it and close the lid.
The position of the aircraft is calibrated along with the scale of the map and the map is oriented to the correct direction.
In flight a moving cursor (on the hind) or lit lamp showing through the map tells the pilot roughly where he is and the direction he is facing.
I haven't seen the other symbology before, but that could simply consist of layers added to represent waypoints or threats or targets.
By the early 2000s modern avionics with map generation capability in real time based on location with symbology overlay became available on Russian aircraft upgrades, but no money had been spend in 1997 for that sort of thing to be available then.
Cheap, simple and does the job... not as sophisticated or capable as a modern system though.
I suspect the MiG-31BM with its multifunction display and improved nav would likely have moving map capability as navigation is critical near the north pole...
medo- Posts : 4342
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Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
Two pictures of navigation device. It is not classical paper map navigation device with two sticks running up-down and left-right to form cross in front of map to show your position on the map. Problem is, when you prepare paper map for this device, there are more layers of paper and no light from behind could be seen, so it need sticks in front of map and it is usually bigger than this one in MiG-31. Also this one is screwed and I doubt pilot have time to screw it all the time to change maps in it and calibrate device flying and 2+ Mach in distance more than 1000 km. It either have special maps made on special paper for this device and place by technicians before flight for area of flying route with proper measure to cover that area, or this is a device working with map on microfilm also placed with technicians before flight and microfilm could easier cover larger area and could move the map, when plane comes out of area , that pilot could always see, where the plane is.
Although it is mechanical device, it is excellent thing, which show pilot the position of plane on the map in real time and all calculations are made by plane computer. Of course today GPS/GLONASS devices with LCD screens are far better, but this was in use before GPS was created.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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That is the PA-4-3 moving map display, part of the KN-25 navigation system. The stick you see next to the map is what the pilot uses to move the map around.
Nice vid, never seen it in action before.
Nice vid, never seen it in action before.
medo- Posts : 4342
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Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
TR1 wrote:That is the PA-4-3 moving map display, part of the KN-25 navigation system. The stick you see next to the map is what the pilot uses to move the map around.
Nice vid, never seen it in action before.
Thanks for answer. Not much about it on the net, only that it is paper moving map display, what mean it have special paper map placed inside, that moving mechanism could move it in any way and that the light marker could be seen on it. Although mechanical display, it have to be connected with computer and autopilot to synchronize position of map and light marker with actual position of plane. Not a GPS, but still a very helpful working device.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Indeed, pretty much as good as inertial navigation got back in the day.
Sadly cool mechanical devices like this are almost all gone now, just boring MDF with satellite feed
.
Sadly cool mechanical devices like this are almost all gone now, just boring MDF with satellite feed
.
medo- Posts : 4342
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Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
TR1 wrote:Indeed, pretty much as good as inertial navigation got back in the day.
Sadly cool mechanical devices like this are almost all gone now, just boring MDF with satellite feed
Agree. They should keep those devices as back up to satellite navigation for case of satellite signal jamming. Unfortunately, there is no picture of this side panel on MiG-31BM to see, if it keep this device.
GarryB- Posts : 38920
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Being mechanical they did take up space and were subject to g effect etc.
I seem to remember a photo of the rear position of the MiG-31BM with three large MFD across the cockpit but with a small MFD on the side console.
I would assume all the MFD screens could display map and nav information depending on what was important at the time, though I would expect radar and IRST data could be combined on one tactical display leaving two main screens free for nav or fuel or weapons management or the ESM situation etc etc.
Oh how frustrating... the above shows the small side MFD, but behind it shows what appears to be that joystick controller... is there a new digital Map display to replace the old paper map version?
Looking at the control panel on the older MiG-31s:
In front of the old joystick is a keypad with yellow buttons... I suspect either navigation or radio communication pad. I would suspect the new small MFD replaces that, but without a better view we can't see if the map is replaced... I suspect it would be made digital, but without the right photo.
BTW those L band wing mounted AESAs, they are more than just passive listening systems to detect Link 16 emissions... the term AESA means Actively Electronically Scanned Array, which means it sends out a beam and detects the return signal and that it scans electronically rather than with physical movement of the assembly.
I seem to remember a photo of the rear position of the MiG-31BM with three large MFD across the cockpit but with a small MFD on the side console.
I would assume all the MFD screens could display map and nav information depending on what was important at the time, though I would expect radar and IRST data could be combined on one tactical display leaving two main screens free for nav or fuel or weapons management or the ESM situation etc etc.
Oh how frustrating... the above shows the small side MFD, but behind it shows what appears to be that joystick controller... is there a new digital Map display to replace the old paper map version?
Looking at the control panel on the older MiG-31s:
In front of the old joystick is a keypad with yellow buttons... I suspect either navigation or radio communication pad. I would suspect the new small MFD replaces that, but without a better view we can't see if the map is replaced... I suspect it would be made digital, but without the right photo.
BTW those L band wing mounted AESAs, they are more than just passive listening systems to detect Link 16 emissions... the term AESA means Actively Electronically Scanned Array, which means it sends out a beam and detects the return signal and that it scans electronically rather than with physical movement of the assembly.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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You mean the one on the PAK-FA right? AESA does point to it being a real "detection system", but it is far too small to be of any use there... As mentioned before, it is most likely an advanced transponder.GarryB wrote:BTW those L band wing mounted AESAs, they are more than just passive listening systems to detect Link 16 emissions... the term AESA means Actively Electronically Scanned Array, which means it sends out a beam and detects the return signal and that it scans electronically rather than with physical movement of the assembly.
kvs- Posts : 15110
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Mike E wrote:You mean the one on the PAK-FA right? AESA does point to it being a real "detection system", but it is far too small to be of any use there... As mentioned before, it is most likely an advanced transponder.GarryB wrote:BTW those L band wing mounted AESAs, they are more than just passive listening systems to detect Link 16 emissions... the term AESA means Actively Electronically Scanned Array, which means it sends out a beam and detects the return signal and that it scans electronically rather than with physical movement of the assembly.
Over at the Key Publishing aviation forum we have rather convincing evidence being shown of Russia adopting Gallium Nitride amplifiers. These have a very high gain compared to the amplifiers used in current radars and could transform the small wing mounted radar into a much more capable unit. I do not think we have a clear idea what is going to be equipped in the PAK-FA.
GarryB- Posts : 38920
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You mean the one on the PAK-FA right? AESA does point to it being a real "detection system", but it is far too small to be of any use there... As mentioned before, it is most likely an advanced transponder.
The advertisement from the company that makes it seems to make it clear it is an AESA radar... it could just use a horizontal array of elements that electronically scan horizontally and vertically to find targets.
It is also described and being designed for a range of aircraft including Flankers.. 27, 30, 35:
medo- Posts : 4342
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Join date : 2010-10-24
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GarryB wrote:Being mechanical they did take up space and were subject to g effect etc.
I seem to remember a photo of the rear position of the MiG-31BM with three large MFD across the cockpit but with a small MFD on the side console.
I would assume all the MFD screens could display map and nav information depending on what was important at the time, though I would expect radar and IRST data could be combined on one tactical display leaving two main screens free for nav or fuel or weapons management or the ESM situation etc etc.
Oh how frustrating... the above shows the small side MFD, but behind it shows what appears to be that joystick controller... is there a new digital Map display to replace the old paper map version?
Looking at the control panel on the older MiG-31s:
In front of the old joystick is a keypad with yellow buttons... I suspect either navigation or radio communication pad. I would suspect the new small MFD replaces that, but without a better view we can't see if the map is replaced... I suspect it would be made digital, but without the right photo.
BTW those L band wing mounted AESAs, they are more than just passive listening systems to detect Link 16 emissions... the term AESA means Actively Electronically Scanned Array, which means it sends out a beam and detects the return signal and that it scans electronically rather than with physical movement of the assembly.
Cockpit with 3 LCDs is from MiG-31BM prototype, serial have 2 LCDs and have the same keypad with yellow buttons as old MiG-31 (here are buttons in black), but picture didn't show right side panel long enough to see if it have paper moving map navigational device. If this pad is connected with device, than it most probably have it.