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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:20 am

    The problem for the B-2 is that in a fight against Russia it is primarily a first strike weapon and would therefore have to penetrate an active air defence network... most of the OTH radars would pick it up... the Aussie OTH network supposedly picked them up too.


    Obviously its other problem is that if it is intercepted by pretty much anything from an armed Yak-130 through to MiG-31 it really has no defence or escape... even an Su-25 could shoot it down.

    I am not that convinced it is that safe from IR systems (sensors or missiles) as it was easily tracked by a Rapier unit at Farnborough in the 1990s.


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    PeeD

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  PeeD on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:00 pm

    A possible counter-VHF effect due to size/feature size for the B-2 would also explain why the Americans went for the B-21.

    I'm aware that OTH radars can detect B-2 size shaping stealth, at least HF wavelength has no potential feature size effect in the same way VHF has no problems with smaller feature sizes of F-22/-35/-117.

    However the problem with OTH radars is that they are static. A massive saturation attack by Tomahawks up to nuclear ballistic missile attacks could take these vital systems off. This is the nature of any static, large system, it's survivability is limited and in a serious conflict you just try to keep it alive as long as possible. We all know how potent the Russian IADS is, but here the determination of the opponent counts, if it is ready to spend 300-600-1000 Tomahawks for a single vital object, there isn't much that can be done. Furthermore there are limitations in scan rate and 360° coverage with OTH radars.

    IR spectrum is another way but with the assumed cooling and sub-sonic speed, the ranges should be limited to 100km for cost effective TI sensors.

    Maybe I overestimate the feature-size wavelength problem of the B-2 and e.g the gaps between the control surfaced are sufficient for VHF-band scattering. But maybe it has a stealth operation regime that makes it effective against VHF-band and hence the decision for the B-21.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Singular_Transform on Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:20 pm

    PeeD wrote:A possible counter-VHF effect due to size/feature size for the B-2 would also explain why the Americans went for the B-21.

    I'm aware that OTH radars can detect B-2 size shaping stealth, at least HF wavelength has no potential feature size effect in the same way VHF has no problems with smaller feature sizes of F-22/-35/-117.

    However the problem with OTH radars is that they are static. A massive saturation attack by Tomahawks up to nuclear ballistic missile attacks could take these vital systems off. This is the nature of any static, large system, it's survivability is limited and in a serious conflict you just try to keep it alive as long as possible. We all know how potent the Russian IADS is, but here the determination of the opponent counts, if it is ready to spend 300-600-1000 Tomahawks for a single vital object, there isn't much that can be done. Furthermore there are limitations in scan rate and 360° coverage with OTH radars.

    IR spectrum is another way but with the assumed cooling and sub-sonic speed, the ranges should be limited to 100km for cost effective TI sensors.

    Maybe I overestimate the feature-size wavelength problem of the B-2 and e.g the gaps between the control surfaced are sufficient for VHF-band scattering. But maybe it has a stealth operation regime that makes it effective against VHF-band and hence the decision for the B-21.

    The Nebo-m can detect the B2.

    It needs to be several times bigger to be invisible.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:01 am

    There is only one reason to try to take down Russias OTH radar network so any attempt to launch anything at them would likely result in TOPOLS and SATANs and YARs etc stretching their legs... hardly the best way to start a first strike...

    The new photonic radars they are working on could change everything...


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    Erlindur

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Erlindur on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:28 pm

    I've been wondering about something for a while now and I think this is a nice place to ask. My last encounter with electromagnetic wave physics was back in my university days, decades back and I do not have the will to look them up again, so sorry in advance if what I ask is stupid.

    OK, I have an X-band radar with a very narrow beam. Instead of simply sending pulses with it, I preform a typical amplitude modulation on them with a frequency of UHF or even VHF wavelengths. No matter what happens to the x-band carrier (due to stealth shape), wouldn't I get back the low frequency harmonic, provided I have an appropriate receiver listening? If my beam is narrow enough, maybe it is possible to get enough data for detection or even tracking, just by using its position when I get the harmonic back.

    Do you think something like that could work?
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:32 pm

    Erlindur wrote:I've been wondering about something for a while now and I think this is a nice place to ask. My last encounter with electromagnetic wave physics was back in my university days, decades back and I do not have the will to look them up again, so sorry in advance if what I ask is stupid.

    OK, I have an X-band radar with a very narrow beam. Instead of simply sending pulses with it, I preform a typical amplitude modulation on them with a frequency of UHF or even VHF wavelengths. No matter what happens to the x-band carrier (due to stealth shape), wouldn't I get back the low frequency harmonic, provided I have an appropriate receiver listening? If my beam is narrow enough, maybe it is possible to get enough data for detection or even tracking, just by using its position when I get the harmonic back.

    Do you think something like that could work?
    Nothing prevent from you to do that ,but it won't make any benefit.


    First, the transmitter will be very expensive.
    Second, the low frequency signal won't match the resonant frequency of the phased array, means that in good case it will have no directional amplification .Bad case it will burn out the transmitter.


    And the returning signal won't have any amplification as well.


    The antennas works only with very close frequencies, say a 100 mhz antenna will works well with +/- 10 mhz
    A very high frequency antenna , like a 10000 mhz one will works well with +/-100 mhz frequency.

    It can works with wide band as well, but the amplification will be smaller at the edge.

    The data rate proportional to the frequency, say a 10 MHz means 10 megabyte .

    So, if you want to deliver a 100 mhz signal with a 10 GHz transmitter then it has to have 10 Gbyte bandwidth, and the 100 mhz will be so out from the resonant frequency it won't receive any signal at all practically.

    http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/solutions/Enterprise/Borderless_Networks/Unified_Access/CMX/CMX_RFOpFreqDataRates.pdf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth_(signal_processing)

    Erlindur

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Erlindur on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:26 pm

    Yeah you are right but I was thinking a slightly different scenario. First not a phased array radar. I guess the math would be way too complicated. Maybe use one typical older generation conventional system.

    Second, I wouldn't dream of trying to get the reflection with the same hardware, that is why I said "provided I have an appropriate receiver listening". I was thinking about a separate receiver antenna (of the appropriate length) for the returning harmonic. One with its own circuit to amplify and analyze it and send the results back to the main radar's cpu. I only want it to work as a trigger confirming that we got a return.




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