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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon May 15, 2017 6:19 pm

    That graphic is total horseshit. Is the radar using nebo m? Is it using passive systems? That is as generic as it can get.

    Arrow

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Arrow on Mon May 15, 2017 6:50 pm

    Nebo M can detect stealth target with greater range but it can't guide missile with TVM guidance. 92N6 must see the target.
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    medo

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  medo on Mon May 15, 2017 11:21 pm

    Nebo-SVU have small enough cell for target location, that S-300PMU2 could launch missile on it without using S-300 tracking radar. Only link to missile to bring the missile to the cell of Nebo-SVU, where the missile could find the target itself. Nebo-M is far more capable complex than Nebo-SVU (both are AESA radars) with three different radars and S-400 is more modern complex. Nebo-M for sure have small enough cell, that S-400 could engage the target at max distance with ARH missiles using link guidance to bring missile to the cell.

    obliqueweapons

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    Yep

    Post  obliqueweapons on Tue May 16, 2017 4:28 am

    GarryB wrote:You don't need to be able to see an F-22 to kill it as such.

    The MiG-35 and Su-35 as well as the PAK FA will have ESM sophisticated enough to make AMRAAM and Sidewinder pretty much ineffective... and the reverse is probably true too... so in the end it will come down to turning and fighting with cannon shells which can't be stopped by jamming.

    My money is on the Russian aircraft as they have proven close in manouver capability with thrust vectoring engines and enough missiles to have lots of shots at western aircraft too.

    Yep on my fb page oblique weapons, it has a post saying to put them in artillery shells. It's also good because it get's next to them within seconds, not giving them time to turn. The fastest ever artillery round travelled at 6,000km/h. 3,000km/h would hit a dog fighting within a second. You get a lock-on warning and in 1 second it's all over.

    You do know American jet's can lock-on before Russian jet's right? Are you saying you can Jam the missile 5 - 20 seconds after it's been fired? That's like saying a lock-on guided missile signal is cut at any time after it's fired. I have know idea about that.



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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 16, 2017 11:26 am

    That image shows one vehicle trying to track fighter sized aircraft targets... S-400 is not one radar vehicle type and can receive data from a range of sources including AWACS and ground and space based radar/sensors.

    The IADS network will detect stealth aircraft fairly easily and at very long range... an IADS consists of hundreds of radar... a small percentage of which will be scanning and all will be listening... the stealthy design of the B-2 and F-22 and F-35 is designed to redirect the radar waves away from the source but other radars located around the place will detect radar reflections coming from empty space... two or more can be used to locate the stealth target fairly easily.


    The S-400 is designed to intercept rather small RCS targets... most ballistic missile warheads are very very aerodynamic and have no forward flat faces so they have tiny RCS... that is what the S-400 is designed to intercept.


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    Arrow

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Arrow on Tue May 16, 2017 5:59 pm

    S-400 can engage balistic warhead from about 60 km. Stealth aircraft it can visible about 40km. This is very short range SAM system for stealth airplane Laughing Where is 40N6 ? Laughing
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    Isos

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Isos on Tue May 16, 2017 7:18 pm

    A mig-29/35 guided by the ground is as stealth as the F-22. When it comes to its 6, it's finish for the US fighter. Land based systems can jam X band so that the US fighter won't see anything while russian ground based radars operating in other frequency band can see them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha_EW_System

    This thing as 300km range. Put 5 of them on the border of your country and no fighter in the air can use its radar. Add many more less sophisticated system that make more parasite and noise and it's even harder. The fight will be with guns and IR missile.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue May 16, 2017 8:05 pm

    Ooh Kek, not again, this stealth vs anti-stealth thing simply has to many variables, we know that the U.S has stealth and we know Russia has put a lot of work over the years in there AD systems, network and radars in general, how it'll play out is anyone best guess, and the reality is, i don't think the U.S air-force wants to find out.

    obliqueweapons

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    Maybe

    Post  obliqueweapons on Wed May 17, 2017 12:49 am

    Can't you just put a radar wave reader is space, that sees the missing radar wave?

    So F-22 and other stealth fighters deflect or absorb radar waves. If it deflects the up coming waves in space, it will see missing radar wave that got deflected from that spot or absorb?

    So with a system over your country you can still detect stealth fighters.

    I would also thing bout making a laser radar. A laser beam in space spreads out and is hit by lasers "that" or radar waves hit it showing it missing...what ever works.





    obliqueweapons

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    How to detect all stealth jet's.

    Post  obliqueweapons on Wed May 17, 2017 1:30 am

    Can't you just put a radar wave reader is space, that sees the missing radar wave?

    So F-22 and other stealth fighters deflect or absorb radar waves. If it deflects the up coming waves in space, it will see missing radar wave that got deflected from that spot or absorb?

    So with a system over your country you can still detect stealth fighters.

    I would also think bout making a laser radar. A laser beam in space spreads out from a satellite. The laser beam goes all the way around the satellite, and comes out covering a huge area. Now radar waves can be read by it or a ground laser beam will scan the sky on good days.

    Ether way it will detect stealth fighters before todays radar would.

    It's all about detecting the missing radar wave or laser beam or a system like that, that works...Test it.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 17, 2017 12:02 pm

    S-400 can engage balistic warhead from about 60 km. Stealth aircraft it can visible about 40km.

    The effective range against ballistic targets is limited by the steep trajectory of long range ballistic weapons.

    The equivalent range for PAC-3 against ballistic targets is about 12km.

    With metric wave radar a small stealth aircraft can be detected at hundreds of kms.

    A Pantsir-S1 could detect an F-22 or F-35 with IIR sensors and pass target data to the IADS network so anything could hit them.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 17, 2017 12:11 pm

    For that to work the sensor in space would need to be between the stealth target and the ground emitter... even with billions of satellites you could not maintain coverage of your airspace...


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    obliqueweapons

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    What about around weapons.

    Post  obliqueweapons on Fri May 19, 2017 3:31 am

    GarryB wrote:
    S-400 can engage balistic warhead from about 60 km. Stealth aircraft it can visible about 40km.

    The effective range against ballistic targets is limited by the steep trajectory of long range ballistic weapons.

    The equivalent range for PAC-3 against ballistic targets is about 12km.

    With metric wave radar a small stealth aircraft can be detected at hundreds of kms.

    A Pantsir-S1 could detect an F-22 or F-35 with IIR sensors and pass target data to the IADS network so anything could hit them.

    You only need to defend your weapons, so you would only use 1 satellite to cover your weapons.

    What's the first thing a F-22 will go for? Then you don't need billions of satellites but handfuls.

    F-22 will go for S-400s and so on, so cover them near the border.

    It would be good if you could make a laser base radar. 1 satellite in space could cover a huge distance. The satellite would have a laser all the way around it shining out covering a huge area. You then make earth bases lasers that flicker it the sky scanning an area at a time.

    The enemy can't get deep into your country, because the laser will hit there jets.

    Anyway if a Pantsir-s1 does the job so be it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 20, 2017 9:14 am

    The picture you drew shows an emission from a ground based radar being absorbed or redirected and a space satellite behind it detecting the gap in the signal from the ground radar.

    For this to work the space based satellite needs to be aligned with the stealth aircraft to detect the gap in the signal.

    The odds of one satellite being in the right place at the right time is next to zero as the satellite is also moving very fast too.


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    obliqueweapons

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  obliqueweapons on Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:40 am

    GarryB wrote:The picture you drew shows an emission from a ground based radar being absorbed or redirected and a space satellite behind it detecting the gap in the signal from the ground radar.

    For this to work the space based satellite needs to be aligned with the stealth aircraft to detect the gap in the signal.

    The odds of one satellite being in the right place at the right time is next to zero as the satellite is also moving very fast too.

    Not if you use lasers.

    A satellite can have a laser beam coming out in all directions, that reads the incoming laser beam. This way it covers the hole area. It can be coded 2.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:37 pm

    A single satellite would overfly one point in Russia for about 6 minutes and come past again 90 minutes later... a stealth aircraft moving at 800km/h would be an impossible target for even the most capable laser equipped satellite...

    It would make rather more sense to mount lasers in an aircraft like an AWACS aircraft... no... actually it would make more sense to mount long wave radars around the perimeter of Russia to detect targets coming from long range... which they already have.


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    obliqueweapons

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  obliqueweapons on Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:44 am

    miketheterrible wrote:That graphic is total horseshit. Is the radar using nebo m? Is it using passive systems? That is as generic as it can get.

    I have no idea about that area. You are talking to the worlds best strategist. Ill have you know Putin went into Syria thanks' to me.

    Oblique weapons on fb.

    obliqueweapons

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  obliqueweapons on Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:52 am

    GarryB wrote:A single satellite would overfly one point in Russia for about 6 minutes and come past again 90 minutes later... a stealth aircraft moving at 800km/h would be an impossible target for even the most capable laser equipped satellite...

    It would make rather more sense to mount lasers in an aircraft like an AWACS aircraft... no... actually it would make more sense to mount long wave radars around the perimeter of Russia to detect targets coming from long range... which they already have.

    kool cheers.

    Ps the satellite doesn't point lasers down. It spreads the beam out in space covering a huge area to read the up coming laser beam that hit's it. It can be coded to.

    So 1,000 laser beams flicker the sky scanning it. The laser beams go up and hit the satellites laser beam.

    Does not matter if Russia already have that capability to detect them.
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    Isos

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Isos on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:22 pm

    Nice article of air to air missile kills

    https://defenseissues.net/2015/09/11/dassault-rafale-vs-f-35/

    and f-22 vs pak fa comparison with numbers

    https://defenseissues.net/2015/10/11/pak-fa-vs-f-22/
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    Isos

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Isos on Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:01 pm

    http://aviationweek.com/defense/how-f-22-deconflicting-us-russia-operations-over-syria

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/we-now-have-clear-proof-the-f-22-raptor-will-dominate-over-20863


    Well,if you forget propaganda of the article, now they are saying they used total stealth of the F-22. Russia probably used it's radars to get its signature.

    bojcistv

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  bojcistv on Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:13 pm

    Those articles sounds ridiculous. I can't see how those are the news at all because the common sense says you should look or ask both sides if you want to get the truth out.
    I am wonder for those guys flying around in invisible F22, how do they know they are invisible for Russians in Syria? Just can't take for granted statement one of the pilot who just says - They can't see me at all and I have an God's eye over them! Maybe they don't want you to know you are tracked or seen on the screen of some flying or ground system Russian use for air space observation over Syria?
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    Isos

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:35 pm

    bojcistv wrote:Those articles sounds ridiculous. I can't see how those are the news at all because the common sense says you should look or ask both sides if you want to get the truth out.
    I am wonder for those guys flying around in invisible F22, how do they know they are invisible for Russians in Syria? Just can't take for granted statement one of the pilot who just says - They can't see me at all and I have an God's eye over them! Maybe they don't want you to know you are tracked or seen on the screen of some flying or ground system Russian use for air space observation over Syria?

    Well I know its BS but the fact is that they said they were invisible to Russian radar so they were flying clean Raptor without reflectors so russian radars had the oportunity to scan them and see if they can see them.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:13 pm

    So I briefly read over the articles and I'm confused.

    So how does the pilot know he wasn't being tracked? Actually, he didn't say he was never tracked at all. But I'm more curious as to what engagements were had because apparently there were none. But load already said, he doesn't know if he was or wasn't. Second of all, L band radar would pick him up and most passive sensors would have trouble picking up location of said radar. Hence why anti radiation missiles do not work well against a L band radar.

    For all we know the Russians were tracking it and stayed silent. They have done this multiple of times already in Syria unless the US did something real stupid then they would say something.

    And if they were using the raptors in Syrian airspace in full stealth, then that gives Russians a lot to learn from, same was from tomahawk launch.

    The other issue I thought of as well is when the F-22 would turn on its radar, it will light up to most radars due to the radiation. So unless the F-22 flies around with nothing but passive sensors, then it really isn't fully stealth
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:40 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:So I briefly read over the articles and I'm confused.

    So how does the pilot know he wasn't being tracked? Actually, he didn't say he was never tracked at all. But I'm more curious as to what engagements were had because apparently there were none. But load already said, he doesn't know if he was or wasn't. Second of all, L band radar would pick him up and most passive sensors would have trouble picking up location of said radar. Hence why anti radiation missiles do not work well against a L band radar.

    For all we know the Russians were tracking it and stayed silent. They have done this multiple of times already in Syria unless the US did something real stupid then they would say something.

    And if they were using the raptors in Syrian airspace in full stealth, then that gives Russians a lot to learn from, same was from tomahawk launch.

    The other issue I thought of as well is when the F-22 would turn on its radar, it will light up to most radars due to the radiation. So unless the F-22 flies around with nothing but passive sensors, then it really isn't fully stealth


    The best proof of the usability of air defence systems against the f22/f35 is the procurement of S400 systems.


    If the f22 is not possible to shoot down then make more sense to buy long wave radars and interceptor jets.

    The S400 units are not cheap, each of them cost as much as five-ten interceptor jet.



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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:01 pm

    Is Nebo-M in Syria? Curiously enough. Cause that will detect that F-22 at long ranges.

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