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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    Azi

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Azi on Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:17 pm

    MarshallJukov wrote:
    kvs wrote:The only reason why the RAM needs to be a certain thickness is that absorption is wavelength dependent.  .

    That was exactly my point. Also, gamma rays are high energy photons which is not the case on our topic as they have different properties than radiowaves. However new type of photonic radars is comming. Which supposedly make "stealth" completely obsolete by all means.
    When will photonic radars come into service? You have a specific date?  I'm sure that humans will travel to other stars, but I simply don't know when!

    Photonic radar is a very promising concept but the technology is not mature NOW! The introduction will take decades.

    By the way...Photons have all the same properties, they are only different in wavelength (energy). Different energy means different types of interaction with matter. (I know...I'm a smart-arse Laughing )
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    MarshallJukov

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  MarshallJukov on Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:14 pm

    Azi wrote:The first effect is pure absorption of EM waves."

    There is no such thing as "pure absorbition of EM waves"

    Azi wrote:This effect happens over a broad spectra and is of course best at resonance frequency

    And longer the waves are, the less effect is. Within band we currently duscussing it is absolutely, totaly irrelevant in terms of lowering radar ranges, not just " not so good."

    Azi wrote:Radar absorbing material design Yuzcelik, Cihangir Kemal

    Gee, this again? Did you bothered yourself to read it in the first place? Go to page 51 and see that test was made at 300 Mhz upon PEC covered with 100mm thick RAM structure and BEST result they was able to achieve was reduction from 26Db to 3,8Db for a wavelength of 1 meter, didn`t i told you which wavelength the old P-18 has? Don`t you know what kind of RAM thickness actual aircrafts have? Don`t you aware that actual radars also give out much more than 26Db signal level? Sorry but you did not even saw forest behind the trees in that monography. And just so you know, 20-25Db signal reduction is EXACTLY the best ideal RAM can offer and thats EXACTLY around 10% contrubution to total RCS reduction in real world and EXACTLY why "stealth" is ***ALL*** about SHAPE.



    Azi wrote:Shape is a part of stealth concept but it's not "ALL"!


    Its ABSOLUTRELY EVERYTHING.


    Azi wrote: why Su T-50 has RAM coating?

    Because its potential enemies do not have any advanced long wave radars, ya see? And as we already discussed, efficiency of RAM grows as wavelength gets shorter. A bit of RAM to squeeze a bit more of RCS reduction is always fine. Just as, for example, they battle to win every kilogram of weight in that kind of machinery. Its not like T-50 bets everything on RAM or on "stealth" as a whole as american jets do.


    Azi wrote:concept of stealth is not bad at all.

    It is VERY bad concept when you try to bet your success on it entirely. Read the story of "King`s new clothes" story to get what i mean.
    Reduction of RCS means nothing if capabilities of your adversary to detect your jets are few orders of magnitude above the treshold your "stealth" can offer even under ideal circumstances. Thats why Russian designers invest much more in kinetic abilities of new jetfighter, more into its sensors and weapons, leaving "stealth" measures as mere weaves of fashion only.

    Azi wrote:When will photonic radars come into service?

    I bet much eartlier than US will be able to come up with viable F-22/35/B-2 replacement.

    Azi wrote:Photonic radar is a very promising concept but the technology is not mature NOW! The introduction will take decades.


    Photonics: From the laser to "radar sight"
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:04 am

    If RAM alone can make you stealthy why not apply it to all existing aircraft and save a lot of money.

    The reality is that there is no such thing as a stealth aircraft that was not designed from scratch as a stealth aircraft.

    Planes can be made more stealthy, and their RCS can be reduced but never to the level it could be reduced if you had a from scratch stealth design.

    Radar invisible materials are worse than conventional materials.

    A corner reflector magnifies a radar signal to a degree that no flat piece of metal ever could.

    A flat piece of metal will give a decent radar return... a corner reflector can return a signal equivalent to thousands of square metres of target...
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:22 am

    Azi wrote:
    MarshallJukov wrote:
    kvs wrote:The only reason why the RAM needs to be a certain thickness is that absorption is wavelength dependent.  .

    That was exactly my point. Also, gamma rays are high energy photons which is not the case on our topic as they have different properties than radiowaves. However new type of photonic radars is comming. Which supposedly make "stealth" completely obsolete by all means.
    When will photonic radars come into service? You have a specific date?  I'm sure that humans will travel to other stars, but I simply don't know when!

    Photonic radar is a very promising concept but the technology is not mature NOW! The introduction will take decades.

    By the way...Photons have all the same properties, they are only different in wavelength (energy). Different energy means different types of interaction with matter. (I know...I'm a smart-arse Laughing )

    Decades lmao?!?! Meanwhile KRET is set to introduce ROFAR by 2018, you can wipe the egg off your face now.... Razz Embarassed lol1

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Azi on Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:00 pm

    MarshallJukov wrote:
    Azi wrote:The first effect is pure absorption of EM waves."

    There is no such thing as "pure absorbition of EM waves"
    Ah Mr. Einstein writes! Absorption doesnt't exist? So how would you name the phenomena?

    MarshallJukov wrote:
    Azi wrote:This effect happens over a broad spectra and is of course best at resonance frequency

    And longer the waves are, the less effect is. Within band we currently duscussing it is absolutely, totaly irrelevant in terms of lowering radar ranges, not just " not so good."
    In longer wavelength you have -5 to -10 dB! That's NOT irrelevant!!!

    MarshallJukov wrote:
    Azi wrote:Radar absorbing material design Yuzcelik, Cihangir Kemal

    Gee, this again? Did you bothered yourself to read it in the first place? Go to page 51 and see that test was made at 300 Mhz upon PEC covered with 100mm thick RAM structure and BEST result they was able to achieve was reduction from 26Db to 3,8Db for a wavelength of 1 meter, didn`t i told you which wavelength the old P-18 has? Don`t you know what kind of RAM thickness actual aircrafts have? Don`t you aware that actual radars also give out much more than 26Db signal level? Sorry but you did not even saw forest behind the trees in that monography. And just so you know, 20-25Db signal reduction is EXACTLY the best ideal RAM can offer and thats EXACTLY around 10% contrubution to total RCS reduction in real world and EXACTLY why "stealth" is ***ALL*** about SHAPE.
    Do you realize what BULLSHIT do you write? 25 dB signal reduction is not 10%! You know what dB means? It's logarithmic, so a reduction of 20 dB for example means a RCS 100 times smaller!

    In laboratory a reduction of -40 to -50 dB is possible (perfect wavelength, good absorber), in reality it's more -20 to -30 dB.

    And again P-18 is old soviet technology, the precision is 1 km (WOW!), so you CAN'T distinguish if 1 B-52 or 100 F-35 are coming to "visit" you! Serbia had P-18 radar and in Kosovo war the perfomance was (old story!)...ok, 1 F-117 is better than nothing! True.



    MarshallJukov wrote:
    Azi wrote:Shape is a part of stealth concept but it's not "ALL"!
    Its ABSOLUTRELY EVERYTHING.
    Bullshit again and again! A B-2 stealth bomber made of pure steel would blink like a christmas tree in almost every bandwith! Shape and RAM (or composite, transparent to radar) are in the stealth concept combined!


    MarshallJukov wrote:
    Azi wrote: why Su T-50 has RAM coating?
    Because its potential enemies do not have any advanced long wave radars, ya see? And as we already discussed, efficiency of RAM grows as wavelength gets shorter. A bit of RAM to squeeze a bit more of RCS reduction is always fine. Just as, for example, they battle to win every kilogram of weight in that kind of machinery. Its not like T-50 bets everything on RAM or on "stealth" as a whole as american jets do.
    Aaaaah yeah! Western countries have no long wave radars!? Sure!

    US Navy use AN/TPS-71 ROTHR in HF band. US Air Force use AN/FPS-118 in HF band, a successor should follow soon. Other countries have OTH radar as well, for example Australia.

    But at the last point I'm with you! T-50 is not so extreme for stealth optimized like F-35. For me the T-50 is a much better concept than F-22 or F-35, the point is Russia have only prototypes now and will lack the huge numbers USA and allies will have in F-35. F-35 is still dangerouse beside of stealth, stealth is not the important factor for F-35.


    MarshallJukov wrote:
    Azi wrote:concept of stealth is not bad at all.
    It is VERY bad concept when you try to bet your success on it entirely. Read the story of "King`s new clothes" story to get what i mean.
    Reduction of RCS means nothing if capabilities of your adversary to detect your jets are few orders of magnitude above the treshold your "stealth" can offer even under ideal circumstances. .
    You mean that F-22 and F-35 have only stealth? They are full fighters! In real warfare it's not the point if your fighter is 100 km per hour faster or you can turn a bit smaller rounds, it's about electronic countermeasure, the precision of your missile and bombs, datalink and tactic. And I think you underestimate NATzO complete in this case!

    You are correct with the point that T-50 has much better maneuverability, I never wrote something against this point. But how many fights there dogfights in the last 30 years of aerial warfare?

    MarshallJukov wrote:Thats why Russian designers invest much more in kinetic abilities of new jetfighter, more into its sensors and weapons, leaving "stealth" measures as mere weaves of fashion only
    T-50 is much newer than F-35 and F-22 and of course it's electronics are newer and better! But T-50 is not to counter stealth, it's radar is a X-Band radar, so it needs information from ground stations or AWACS to search for stealth planes.

    MarshallJukov wrote:
    Azi wrote:When will photonic radars come into service?
    I bet much eartlier than US will be able to come up with viable F-22/35/B-2 replacement.
    I think you are correct with your steatement, but it will take a long time to the point Russia will have photonic radar in large quantities, that's the point. One experimental photonic radar in 2018 will change nothing!

    And photonic radar brings much better perfomance with lighter weight, but range is less. And don't mix quantum radar with photonic radar, that are two different pair of shoes!


    Last edited by Azi on Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Azi

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Azi on Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:If RAM alone can make you stealthy why not apply it to all existing aircraft and save a lot of money.

    The reality is that there is no such thing as a stealth aircraft that was not designed from scratch as a stealth aircraft.

    Planes can be made more stealthy, and their RCS can be reduced but never to the level it could be reduced if you had a from scratch stealth design.

    Radar invisible materials are worse than conventional materials.

    A corner reflector magnifies a radar signal to a degree that no flat piece of metal ever could.

    A flat piece of metal will give a decent radar return... a corner reflector can return a signal equivalent to thousands of square metres of target...
    Eh? What do you want to tell me?

    RAM is used in and on conventional fighter planes, for example the new batch of F-18 is partially covered with RAM. If you know what RAM is, then you would not write this!!! Of course a real stealth plane is made from scratch and you couldn't modify a existing plane to a stealth plane. Imagine the weight of 5 mm of ferrite (ceramic) covering a conventional plane!? What would your new payload be? By the way aplying RAM is not that easy like painting a garden fence.

    And corner reflectors...
    If parts of the plane are transparent to radar, for example wings, the "corner reflectors" inside the plane would be geometrical modified and covered with RAM. And inside you will maybe have the space for 5 - 20 cm RAM absorber. This comes not from my brain, composite are used in modern jets, for example B-2.

    Azi

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Azi on Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:41 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Decades lmao?!?! Meanwhile KRET is set to introduce ROFAR by 2018, you can wipe the egg off your face now.... Razz Embarassed lol1
    When it's not in service it's not in service! They can write 2018 or 2020 it doesn't matter. ROFAR is not in service and even if it comes to service, you think 1000 of radars are available after a few months? A wizard comes and multiplies it over night? If a military product comes into production line it will takes decades before you reach the planned numbers. With one or two ROFAR you wouldn't win a war!

    But on other side it's good that Russia works on this technology and a named date is good, that shows that ROFAR has reached some degree of mature. I'm not pessimistic!
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    Rmf

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rmf on Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:13 pm

    its a different kind of radar revolutionary not evolutionary, i dont think they would advertise it so soon ,even if they had it.
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    Rmf

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rmf on Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:59 pm

    and i speculate quantum radar will be sooner then we all think , already infrared detectors are using quantum technology- qwip on GeAs plates (same germanium-arsen plates used in aesa radar, hehe)
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    Rmf

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rmf on Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:If RAM alone can make you stealthy why not apply it to all existing aircraft and save a lot of money.

    The reality is that there is no such thing as a stealth aircraft that was not designed from scratch as a stealth aircraft.

    Planes can be made more stealthy, and their RCS can be reduced but never to the level it could be reduced if you had a from scratch stealth design.

    Radar invisible materials are worse than conventional materials.

    A corner reflector magnifies a radar signal to a degree that no flat piece of metal ever could.

    A flat piece of metal will give a decent radar return... a corner reflector can return a signal equivalent to thousands of square metres of target...
    true , and thats the reason i think russians kept sarh (semi active radar homing) guidance or combined seeker aided guidance -sag, missile can receive reflected signal from upper hemisphere while coming down on its stealth target or from under it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:53 am

    SARH is also cheaper and already in service.
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    Isos

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:18 am

    GarryB wrote:If RAM alone can make you stealthy why not apply it to all existing aircraft and save a lot of money.

    The reality is that there is no such thing as a stealth aircraft that was not designed from scratch as a stealth aircraft.

    Planes can be made more stealthy, and their RCS can be reduced but never to the level it could be reduced if you had a from scratch stealth design.

    Radar invisible materials are worse than conventional materials.

    A corner reflector magnifies a radar signal to a degree that no flat piece of metal ever could.

    A flat piece of metal will give a decent radar return... a corner reflector can return a signal equivalent to thousands of square metres of target...

    The design of stealth Aircraft reflect the radar signals in other direction, that's a big part of the "stealt technology". Most radar Producer are working on passive radar that detect the civilians signal reflected by planes. If they achieve to put this in a SARH missiles and make them work with passive early warning radar it will be a stealth S-400 and that will be much more dangerous than the S-400 we know.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:18 pm

    If you have one radar then you can scan all you like but there are problems.

    First of all by scanning you are giving away your location so anyone planning an attack can plot flightpaths that avoid your position, and even the flight profile of the aircraft can be planned to ensure when they are most vulnerable (ie closest to your radar), that they are either flying very low or are even behind something like a low row of hills or even buildings or whatever.

    With an IADS or Integrated Air Defence System you don't need all the radars to be emitting in a scan mode... some can scan and some can listen and some can be moving.

    This greatly complicates the planning problems of an enemy... if you scan with a high frequency radar and don't get a return, but are getting returns from other radar signals from those radars just listening the data from 4 or 5 radars could be used by a battle management system to triangulate the approximate position of objects not appearing on conventional radar... once the locations have been triangulated specialist sensors can be directed to try to detect threats like stealth aircraft.

    This means you don't need all your radar scanning all the time, yet you still have a good chance of detecting threats fairly early on.

    Think of stealth as a pane of glass in the canopy of a helicopter.

    A normal plane is like the bubble canopy of a Hughes 500... no matter which way it is facing you can see the spot of the sun reflecting in the canopy from almost any angle because of the round shape.

    In an Mi-28N however the canopy is made of small flat panels so you only see the sun reflecting in the canopy at very specific angles and with a moving helo only for a few seconds at a time.

    The best terminal guidance method for a long range missile for use against a stealth aircraft would be IIR, but it would need guidance to fairly close proximity to the target for that to be effective. Long wave radar and bistatic radar offer excellent options to get the missiles close enough to get a lock.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:10 pm

    Russia has working low power (passive) radar system.


    There are many example, based on phone/radio/tv broadcasting systems.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_radar


    Obivous problem is if the electricity supply gone then the illuminators die as well.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:59 pm

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-52E6MU-Struna.html


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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  hoom on Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:08 pm

    And to be anyhow relevant it must be 1/8th or less, so its like 200mm+. B-2 or any other VLO aircraft has its RAM coating in order of few milimeters or less, 2 or more orders of marginite below threshold of relevance.
    Well if you design the plane right you can get big depths in wing edges & chines

    KINGFISH, inverted, undergoing RCS testing. Note the serrated leading and trailing edges into which would later be fitted dielectric wedges to further reduce the aircraft’s RCS. The intakes located above the wing would also contribute to lowering the design’s radar return. (Lockheed Martin)


    They did it all round the wing & along the chine of A-12/SR-71 too.



    I think they don't do that anymore though.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:09 am

    That is because when they were doing it then they had no clue what they were actually doing...

    They would make a shape and build a prototype and then suspend it in the air and point a radar at it to test it... then based on the results they would redesign it and test it again... a very slow relatively expensive way of doing things.

    It was only after a Russian developed the necessary mathematic model that could be used to predict radar returns using a computer that they could rapidly develop shapes and designs.

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    But

    Post  obliqueweapons on Mon May 15, 2017 11:00 am

    GarryB wrote:The Russians are going to use F-15s to intercept F-22s.

    There are only 189 F-22s and counting and it takes about 40 hours of maintainence for each flight hour.

    Most long wave ground based Russian radars should detect F-22s from quite reasonable distances, but most importantly even if the F-22 is super invisible and can't be detected or shot down the most likely countermeasure would be to nuke all the airbases the F-22s are operating from.

    The Russians have already said that some conventional weapons have the accuracy and capability to be comparable to nuclear weapons in performance and that a strategic strike against Russia will be met with a full nuclear response.

    The truth is we have no idea unto it happens. The F-22 may absorb radar giving no return. You would need a receiver or the wave to be in space. You would only look for missing signal.

    If you have radar on the ground and 1 in space "over your country" you can send up the signal and have a detector. You only detect the jet's if the radar is missing. It will work for deflecting radar or absorbing it / it's's energy.

    The truth is that Russia is now testing Ideas to detect American f-22+ jets. It's why on the news 3 weeks ago they said how 2 F-22 intercepted a Russian plane. In that plane, is new weapons waves signals. It's learning how to detect them. America don't realise that yet. The truth is does that mean we know they cant detect it? Because they are now trying to detect them.


    Last edited by obliqueweapons on Mon May 15, 2017 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 15, 2017 11:42 am

    You don't need to be able to see an F-22 to kill it as such.

    The MiG-35 and Su-35 as well as the PAK FA will have ESM sophisticated enough to make AMRAAM and Sidewinder pretty much ineffective... and the reverse is probably true too... so in the end it will come down to turning and fighting with cannon shells which can't be stopped by jamming.

    My money is on the Russian aircraft as they have proven close in manouver capability with thrust vectoring engines and enough missiles to have lots of shots at western aircraft too.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Arrow on Mon May 15, 2017 5:56 pm

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon May 15, 2017 6:19 pm

    That graphic is total horseshit. Is the radar using nebo m? Is it using passive systems? That is as generic as it can get.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Arrow on Mon May 15, 2017 6:50 pm

    Nebo M can detect stealth target with greater range but it can't guide missile with TVM guidance. 92N6 must see the target.
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  medo on Mon May 15, 2017 11:21 pm

    Nebo-SVU have small enough cell for target location, that S-300PMU2 could launch missile on it without using S-300 tracking radar. Only link to missile to bring the missile to the cell of Nebo-SVU, where the missile could find the target itself. Nebo-M is far more capable complex than Nebo-SVU (both are AESA radars) with three different radars and S-400 is more modern complex. Nebo-M for sure have small enough cell, that S-400 could engage the target at max distance with ARH missiles using link guidance to bring missile to the cell.

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    Yep

    Post  obliqueweapons on Tue May 16, 2017 4:28 am

    GarryB wrote:You don't need to be able to see an F-22 to kill it as such.

    The MiG-35 and Su-35 as well as the PAK FA will have ESM sophisticated enough to make AMRAAM and Sidewinder pretty much ineffective... and the reverse is probably true too... so in the end it will come down to turning and fighting with cannon shells which can't be stopped by jamming.

    My money is on the Russian aircraft as they have proven close in manouver capability with thrust vectoring engines and enough missiles to have lots of shots at western aircraft too.

    Yep on my fb page oblique weapons, it has a post saying to put them in artillery shells. It's also good because it get's next to them within seconds, not giving them time to turn. The fastest ever artillery round travelled at 6,000km/h. 3,000km/h would hit a dog fighting within a second. You get a lock-on warning and in 1 second it's all over.

    You do know American jet's can lock-on before Russian jet's right? Are you saying you can Jam the missile 5 - 20 seconds after it's been fired? That's like saying a lock-on guided missile signal is cut at any time after it's fired. I have know idea about that.



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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 16, 2017 11:26 am

    That image shows one vehicle trying to track fighter sized aircraft targets... S-400 is not one radar vehicle type and can receive data from a range of sources including AWACS and ground and space based radar/sensors.

    The IADS network will detect stealth aircraft fairly easily and at very long range... an IADS consists of hundreds of radar... a small percentage of which will be scanning and all will be listening... the stealthy design of the B-2 and F-22 and F-35 is designed to redirect the radar waves away from the source but other radars located around the place will detect radar reflections coming from empty space... two or more can be used to locate the stealth target fairly easily.


    The S-400 is designed to intercept rather small RCS targets... most ballistic missile warheads are very very aerodynamic and have no forward flat faces so they have tiny RCS... that is what the S-400 is designed to intercept.

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