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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    sepheronx
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:21 pm

    I would like to see the Growler try to combat IRST system as it is an optical/laser system and nearly impossible to counter, especially on a plane. Add to that, newer variants would see the Growler far away.

    Also, there are various electronic warfare, electronic counter measure and eccm systems available for Russian planes as well.

    In this case, I imagine it is same for China as well. So while the F-18 Growler is a good attempt, it will just be another plane.

    max steel
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  max steel on Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:02 pm

    Can 40N6 missile destroy US SEAD planes ? What is the diffrnce btwn IR and Optical/laser system ?


    How effective are these sead growler and hornet against iads ?.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:35 pm

    max steel wrote:Can 40N6 missile destroy US SEAD planes ? What is the diffrnce btwn IR and Optical/laser system ?


    How effective are these sead growler and hornet against iads ?.

    Depends on the counter measures. In theory, the growler is dumping a ton of energy at a target to disrupt its systems, which is what Russian systems do as well. Ground based systems may be able to easily counter it due to being able to use much bigger generators and blockers, thus able to produce enough electricity to power countermeasure systems.

    Things like Optical, Infrared sensor, laser, etc are much harder to block agaibst because it isnt letting off signals that can be intercepted or blocked, unlike radio frequency. OLS-35 would pose the biggest challange to aircrafts like that or stealth.

    There are also other sensors, ones that recieve/scan for signals. Passive systems I believe they are called.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  max steel on Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:48 pm

    BUT aren't Russian iads unjammable ? because when nato practiced sead attack with Slovakia s-300 pmus they were unable to enter the protected airspace .

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:49 pm

    Hard to jam is not unjammable.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  max steel on Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:27 am

    Werewolf wrote:Hard to jam is not unjammable.


    What's your thought on usa sead attack by hornets and growler ng . Having DIRCMS fitted can't they be shot down via sams ?

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:41 pm

    max steel wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Hard to jam is not unjammable.


    What's your thought on usa sead attack by hornets and growler ng . Having DIRCMS fitted can't they be shot down via sams ?

    DIRCM is just one little measure that counters IR/IIR seeking missiles, there are many very hard to jam even for russians of command guided SAM missiles that with russian jamming vehicles was very hard to jam such missiles command link to disrupt their guidance. From my perception, which i aggree is biased, russia has upper hand in EW/ECM technology but that does not matter for any airforce it is impossible to operate and as a result dominate russian airspace.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  medo on Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:23 pm

    max steel wrote:Can 40N6 missile destroy US SEAD planes ? What is the diffrnce btwn IR and Optical/laser system ?


    How effective are these sead growler and hornet against iads ?.

    You have to know, that IADS is not only SAMs and their radars. It is whole organization, which include satellites, OTH radars and other early warning radars, command structure, ELINT complexes to passively detect targets, ECM complexes to jam any attacking enemy, visual observation posts network, SAMs and AA artillery, fighter jets, etc. All those segments support each other. The most effective against heavy ECM environment and stealth planes are passive ELINT and visual observation network, which could not be jammed and stealth doesn't work against them. IADS coordinate the work of all segments, that any complex get the best effect. Even small and older IADS in Serbia was not fully suppressed by NATO heavy ECM environment and use of stealth planes and they will never have such qualitative and quantitative superiority against Russian or Chinese IADS.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor1985 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:31 pm

    I have a ideea that might counter the f22. Its all about diffraction of radio waves. When a wave try to exit throught a hole it takes a sphere form. This if the lenght of the wave is much bigger than the hole. So after i found this i searched over reflection of sphere like waves. It seems they are return in same form. So...if a radar has a box with ti ny holes the waves are like a sphere then when hit a plane surface they are reflected back in every direction inclusive to the radar.
    Can this catch a f22?

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    Russia's Radical Sukhoi S-37 Fighter Plane Goes Up Against Our F-22

    Post  nemrod on Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:22 pm


    Old article 2001.

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a229/1281276/


    Russia's Radical Sukhoi S-37 Fighter Plane Goes Up Against Our F-22

    Russia's fabled Sukhoi Design Bureau builds the S-37, a 21st century fighter to go head-to-head with our F-22.

    A bold, new combat aircraft designed by the legendary Sukhoi Design Bureau and now undergoing tests in Russia has taken aim at America's next-generation fighter, the F-22. The Russian challenge comes in the form of the single-seat Sukhoi S-37, the world's first combat aircraft to successfully exploit forward-swept wing (FSW) technology.

    First word of the S-37 leaked to the West in 1997, and took Western defense analysts by surprise. Now, after more than 120 test flights at the secret Zhukovsky Flight Test Center near Moscow, it is clear that there is nothing like this bird flying anywhere in the world today. Its creator, the Sukhoi group, is considered to be Russia's premier combat aircraft producer. Sukhoi currently produces a family of topnotch operational fighters and fighter-bombers all based on the very agile and powerful Su-27 air superiority fighter. These include such models as the Su-33 aircraft carrier-based air defense fighter and the thrust-vectoring Su-37, a fighter and ground-attack aircraft. The general director of the Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Sukhoi Aviation Military-Industrial Complex, Mikhail Pogosyan, is proud of his company's success. But looking to the future, he sees the need to build a fifth-generation fighter and to find an eventual replacement for the Su-27. "The S-37 program [has] a critical importance for the development of our company," he tells Popular Mechanics.

    Named Berkut, which translates to mean Golden Eagle or Royal Eagle, the S-37 bears an "S" rather than an "Su" designation because it is an experimental rather than production aircraft. Design of the aircraft, originally known as the S-32, began around 1983, and drew on many years of FSW research that had commenced in the former Soviet Union during the 1940s—initially using captured Nazi technology. The Russians were also well aware of the Grumman X-29 FSW research aircraft, as two of these single-seat, single-engine planes were being tested in America between 1984 and the early 1990s (see "The Outer Limits").

    The S-37, however, is almost twice the size of the X-29, with a markedly different configuration. It has a length of 74 ft. and a wingspan of 54 ft. 10 in., with a maximum takeoff weight of just under 75,000 pounds. Power comes from two Aviadvigatel (Perm) D-30F6 turbofans, each developing 34,177 pounds of static thrust with afterburners—but without a thrust-vector ring. Together the engines give the S-37 a respectable, if unspectacular, top speed of around Mach 1.6. The aircraft may be re-engined with Sukhoi's preferred option of two Lyulka (Saturn) AL-41F turbofans with thrust vectoring, when these formidable engines—which pour out 39,350 pounds of static thrust with afterburners—become available.
    Unconventional Design

    The real innovations in the S-37 lie within its unconventional design. The swept-forward wing is part of a so-called "tandem triplane" arrangement, blending all-moving forward canards with the swept-forward wing, a short-span broad-chord swept horizontal tail plus outward-canted vertical tailplanes. To speed up manufacturing, some parts of the S-37 were borrowed from the Su-27 series, including the undercarriage and vertical tails, but the main flying surfaces are all new. The S-37's FSW layout meets Sukhoi's desire to create a fighter with super-maneuverability—one capable of maintaining stability and control at almost any altitude and angle of attack. Critical to achieving this is the aircraft's computerized fly-by-wire control system, probably similar to that used in the Su-35 and Su-37, which allows for the basically unstable aerodynamics of the aircraft to be under control at all times. Vital in dogfights, this system, coupled with the FSW layout, helps the S-37 reach the optimum attitude for launching missiles at short- and medium-range opponents. Pogosyan, formerly the chief designer of the S-37, points out that agility was a top priority. "We were looking for the technical solutions to increase aircraft maneuverability in close combat."

    The S-37's forward-swept, slightly tapered wing has leading-edge flaps and trailing-edge flaps and ailerons. Compared to a normal swept-back wing, the FSW potentially has better lift, good antispin and stall resistance, and allows a shorter takeoff run. At transonic speeds (around Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.3), it has a better lift-to-drag ratio than a conventional wing. During flight, airflow is directed inward across the wing's section, thus preventing aileron and tip stall at higher angles of attack, and allowing better control response at high angles of attack. That's great for dogfighting. The key to all this is the use of up to 90 percent composite materials in the wing's structure. Sukhoi has made a major breakthrough in the use of advanced composites in the S-37's wing, and these have proven able to cope with the considerable bending and structural loading on this type of wing during close-in maneuvering across a wide speed range.

    The FSW concept is very different from plans we've seen for the stealthy F-22 Raptor, its potential American rival (see "21st Century Fighter," Dec. 1999). Although the S-37 does have some stealth design features, and may be covered with radar-absorbent coatings, low detectability is secondary to the maneuverability created by the FSW.
    Secret Flight Tests

    The S-37 first flew in September 1997 at the Russian experimental base at Zhukovsky near Moscow. Test flights have been successful so far, with Sukhoi claiming that the S-37 has made more than 120 flights. But many questions remain.

    Will it remain simply as a proof-of-concept aircraft, with no actual production S-37 ever made? Will its radical technology be used in forthcoming Russian fighter designs, perhaps to meet the Russian air force's future heavy fighter requirements? Or will it form the basis of the already-rumored S-54 light fighter, a possible Russian rival to America's Joint Strike Fighter? It can certainly be said that a production model of the S-37 would be a match for any Western fighter.

    The S-37's big rival in Russia is the MiG 1.44. This experimental twin-engined fighter first flew, after many lengthy delays, in February 2000. Most Western observers believe that the MiG design, and not the S-37, will ultimately lead to a production fighter. However, Sukhoi has a possible trump card. The new Russian president, Vladimir Putin, is particularly friendly toward Sukhoi, and his planned reforms of Russia's aircraft industry could benefit Sukhoi. Pogosyan tells PM he is upbeat: "We have a good design and scientific organization, which enables us to successfully compete with the West."

    Much of the S-37 program remains veiled in secrecy, but its potentially world-beating design truly extends the boundaries of state-of-the-art fighter technology.

    This story originally appeared in the January 2001 issue of Popular Mechanics.


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    Is F 22 is the ultimate figher or cant it be shot down

    Post  moskit on Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:39 am

    https://warisboring.com/could-russia-shoot-down-an-f-22-stealth-fighter-over-syria-2ca2bb80791c?mc_cid=c9164b35ab&mc_eid=c1d92b0e00#.yqs9msg0q. Is this realistic? Hope Russians have the means to make it real. russia

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Batajnica on Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:49 pm

    I think that there are many step to hit F22,Russia air force so.

    I am Chinese ,know the PLAA`s tactics and air defence system

    with the VHF radar and many of rada systemes or photoelectric detection systemes on the borad area

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  kvs on Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:25 pm

    Batajnica wrote:I think that there are many step to hit F22,Russia air force so.

    I am Chinese ,know the PLAA`s tactics and air defence system

    with the VHF radar and many of rada systemes or photoelectric detection systemes on the borad area

    Stealth has become a myth. It was a 1960s solution to the primitive monochrome radars of that period. One could design an
    aircraft to avoid a single such primitive radar but not a network of them. So from day one this wunderwaffe was limited.
    Modern multi-spectrum detection systems completely defeat stealth. This is not even understood or known by stealth
    fanboys. So no, the F-22 and B-2 are not "invisible" to Russian detection systems.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Batajnica on Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:14 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Batajnica wrote:I think that there are many step to hit F22,Russia air force so.

    I am Chinese ,know the PLAA`s tactics and air defence system

    with the VHF radar and many of rada systemes or photoelectric detection systemes on the borad area

    Stealth has become a myth.   It was a 1960s solution to the primitive monochrome radars of that period.   One could design an
    aircraft to avoid a single such primitive radar but not a network of them.   So from day one this wunderwaffe was limited.  
    Modern multi-spectrum detection systems completely defeat stealth.    This is not even understood or known by stealth
    fanboys.   So no, the F-22 and B-2 are not "invisible" to Russian detection systems.  


    I know it

    X band detect RCS=0.005 ,maximum rang=16 to 20 Km
    S band detect RCS=0.011,maximum rang=25 to 30
    VHF band can Normal detection the F22 or B2

    China have make the VHF band phased array radar,and exhibit in Zhuhai 2016 airshow

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:11 am

    Stealth is not the super all powerful game changer, but is also not the useless white elephant it is claimed to be.

    Against a target like Iraq or Syria a stealth aircraft is a serious threat... especially when used with non stealthy aircraft in support.

    Russia and China have been trying to deal with issues of stealth threats for over two decades now, but also to deal with large organised and coordinated threats... both of which required a unified coordinated IADS.

    For the question is Russia safe from the F-22 and B-2 the answer is of course no... for the same reason that the US is not safe from a 1960s propeller driven strategic bomber called Tu-95.

    If WWIII breaks out subsonic bombers will be gone from their airfields by the time the enemies SLBMs and ICBMs arrive on target. Those subsonic bombers will fly for 8 hours or so and then release their weapons in an environment where 6-7 hours previously lots of nuclear weapons have just detonated so most air defences will be in tatters... B-52s and B-2s and Tu-95s will get through because odds are nothing will be there to stop them. Tu-160s will also make it to their launch positions and their 5,000km range cruise missiles will also likely explode without warning a few hours later.

    The F-22 is smaller than the B-2 which makes it harder to make stealthy against longer wave radar and of course it is not stealthy in the IR spectrum at all.

    The optical guidance of Verba and likely new Russian IIR guided AAMs should make the F-22 very vulnerable... and even simple cannon fire will deal with a B-2.


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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:37 am

    It is an interesting topics.

    The target of "stealth" is to avoid the horizontal detection of airplane in the cm wavelength range

    It is important because the passive seeker head of the SA or AA rockets is too small to fit anything with longer wavelenght . Example the old, 70s vintage air defence system can see the stealth planes, but it can't illuminate them for the sam rockets.

    But example a big arirplane (like su 2x/3x ) big enough to fit a meter wavelength 4-6 elements passive (active? ) radar, that can pinpoint the position of the stealth plane by few km accuracy .

    However the shaping has a few interesting implications.

    The aircraft not absorbing the radar waves, but reflecting them upwards on the uppor surface of the plane, and back/down on the down surface.

    Additionally , the stealth plane is visible for the X band radars from above , at least in 45 degree, but maybe in a wider cone.

    Means that if you have a ballistic SAM that going up to above 100 km then it can detect see the illumination of the X band radars perfectly, and can hit the target.


    Or you can use dual / triple channel rockets, that use IR/UV to pinpoint the target, and using active guidance from long wave radars to get close to the target say at least 10km distance.

    If anyone check the new gen S-400 rockets then it is quite clear they either using short range dual seeker design, or long range ballistic design. So it attack the planes from above , with passive or active X seeker head.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  kvs on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:13 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:It is an interesting topics.

    The target of "stealth" is to avoid the horizontal detection of airplane in the cm wavelength range

    It is important  because the passive seeker head of the SA or AA rockets is too small to fit anything with longer wavelenght . Example the old, 70s vintage air defence system can see the stealth planes, but it can't illuminate them for the sam rockets.

    But example a big arirplane (like su 2x/3x ) big enough to fit a meter wavelength 4-6 elements passive (active? ) radar, that can pinpoint the position of the stealth plane by few km accuracy .

    The wavelength limitation can be overcome with phased arrays. The size of the missile no longer matters. Also, the missiles could be networked much
    like the radio telescopes used by astronomers to get a much larger effective antenna.

    However the shaping has a few interesting implications.

    The aircraft not absorbing the radar waves, but reflecting them upwards on the uppor surface of the plane, and back/down on the down surface.

    This is classical ray tracing and not quantum reflection. Quantum mechanics results in a hemispherical distribution of the scattered photons around the
    position of the classical ray where there is a peak amplitude. So increasing the sensitivity of detectors (via GaN components for example) will totally
    defeat these geometric tricks.

    Additionally , the stealth plane is visible for the X band radars from above , at least in 45 degree, but maybe in a wider cone.

    Means that if you have a ballistic SAM that going up to above 100 km then it can detect see the illumination of the X band radars perfectly, and can hit the target.


    Or you can use dual / triple channel rockets, that use IR/UV to pinpoint the target, and using active guidance from long wave radars to get close to the target say at least 10km  distance.

    If anyone check the new gen S-400 rockets then it is quite clear they either using short range dual seeker design, or long range ballistic design. So it attack the planes from above , with passive or active X seeker head.

    This just supports the fact that stealth is a "solution" designed to deal with ancient monochrome radars. Now the "radars" have evolved far beyond
    what they were back in the 1960s.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:57 pm

    Radio telescope is a different matter, in that case the direction of the antennas the same, so it has better gain.


    In the case of multiple rockets play the role of antenna network you try to find the direction of the signal, with low directional gains antennas.


    If you do it with multiple rocket then you need quite precise location and timing signal for the rockets, and high speed data connection.

    Not impossible, but extremely complicated and expensive.


    GaN is an emitter technology, make possible higher efficiency and smaller size EMITTER . It doesn't has business with the receiver part of the circuit.


    As I remember the CCCP air defence used multiple band radars, VHF early warning, UHF target detection and X band illumination / vertical angling ones.

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