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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:21 pm

    I would like to see the Growler try to combat IRST system as it is an optical/laser system and nearly impossible to counter, especially on a plane. Add to that, newer variants would see the Growler far away.

    Also, there are various electronic warfare, electronic counter measure and eccm systems available for Russian planes as well.

    In this case, I imagine it is same for China as well. So while the F-18 Growler is a good attempt, it will just be another plane.
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    max steel

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  max steel on Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:02 pm

    Can 40N6 missile destroy US SEAD planes ? What is the diffrnce btwn IR and Optical/laser system ?


    How effective are these sead growler and hornet against iads ?.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:35 pm

    max steel wrote:Can 40N6 missile destroy US SEAD planes ? What is the diffrnce btwn IR and Optical/laser system ?


    How effective are these sead growler and hornet against iads ?.

    Depends on the counter measures. In theory, the growler is dumping a ton of energy at a target to disrupt its systems, which is what Russian systems do as well. Ground based systems may be able to easily counter it due to being able to use much bigger generators and blockers, thus able to produce enough electricity to power countermeasure systems.

    Things like Optical, Infrared sensor, laser, etc are much harder to block agaibst because it isnt letting off signals that can be intercepted or blocked, unlike radio frequency. OLS-35 would pose the biggest challange to aircrafts like that or stealth.

    There are also other sensors, ones that recieve/scan for signals. Passive systems I believe they are called.
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    max steel

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  max steel on Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:48 pm

    BUT aren't Russian iads unjammable ? because when nato practiced sead attack with Slovakia s-300 pmus they were unable to enter the protected airspace .
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:49 pm

    Hard to jam is not unjammable.
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    max steel

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  max steel on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:27 am

    Werewolf wrote:Hard to jam is not unjammable.


    What's your thought on usa sead attack by hornets and growler ng . Having DIRCMS fitted can't they be shot down via sams ?
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:41 pm

    max steel wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Hard to jam is not unjammable.


    What's your thought on usa sead attack by hornets and growler ng . Having DIRCMS fitted can't they be shot down via sams ?

    DIRCM is just one little measure that counters IR/IIR seeking missiles, there are many very hard to jam even for russians of command guided SAM missiles that with russian jamming vehicles was very hard to jam such missiles command link to disrupt their guidance. From my perception, which i aggree is biased, russia has upper hand in EW/ECM technology but that does not matter for any airforce it is impossible to operate and as a result dominate russian airspace.
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    medo

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  medo on Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:23 pm

    max steel wrote:Can 40N6 missile destroy US SEAD planes ? What is the diffrnce btwn IR and Optical/laser system ?


    How effective are these sead growler and hornet against iads ?.

    You have to know, that IADS is not only SAMs and their radars. It is whole organization, which include satellites, OTH radars and other early warning radars, command structure, ELINT complexes to passively detect targets, ECM complexes to jam any attacking enemy, visual observation posts network, SAMs and AA artillery, fighter jets, etc. All those segments support each other. The most effective against heavy ECM environment and stealth planes are passive ELINT and visual observation network, which could not be jammed and stealth doesn't work against them. IADS coordinate the work of all segments, that any complex get the best effect. Even small and older IADS in Serbia was not fully suppressed by NATO heavy ECM environment and use of stealth planes and they will never have such qualitative and quantitative superiority against Russian or Chinese IADS.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor1985 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:31 pm

    I have a ideea that might counter the f22. Its all about diffraction of radio waves. When a wave try to exit throught a hole it takes a sphere form. This if the lenght of the wave is much bigger than the hole. So after i found this i searched over reflection of sphere like waves. It seems they are return in same form. So...if a radar has a box with ti ny holes the waves are like a sphere then when hit a plane surface they are reflected back in every direction inclusive to the radar.
    Can this catch a f22?
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    nemrod

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    Russia's Radical Sukhoi S-37 Fighter Plane Goes Up Against Our F-22

    Post  nemrod on Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:22 pm


    Old article 2001.

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a229/1281276/


    Russia's Radical Sukhoi S-37 Fighter Plane Goes Up Against Our F-22

    Russia's fabled Sukhoi Design Bureau builds the S-37, a 21st century fighter to go head-to-head with our F-22.

    A bold, new combat aircraft designed by the legendary Sukhoi Design Bureau and now undergoing tests in Russia has taken aim at America's next-generation fighter, the F-22. The Russian challenge comes in the form of the single-seat Sukhoi S-37, the world's first combat aircraft to successfully exploit forward-swept wing (FSW) technology.

    First word of the S-37 leaked to the West in 1997, and took Western defense analysts by surprise. Now, after more than 120 test flights at the secret Zhukovsky Flight Test Center near Moscow, it is clear that there is nothing like this bird flying anywhere in the world today. Its creator, the Sukhoi group, is considered to be Russia's premier combat aircraft producer. Sukhoi currently produces a family of topnotch operational fighters and fighter-bombers all based on the very agile and powerful Su-27 air superiority fighter. These include such models as the Su-33 aircraft carrier-based air defense fighter and the thrust-vectoring Su-37, a fighter and ground-attack aircraft. The general director of the Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Sukhoi Aviation Military-Industrial Complex, Mikhail Pogosyan, is proud of his company's success. But looking to the future, he sees the need to build a fifth-generation fighter and to find an eventual replacement for the Su-27. "The S-37 program [has] a critical importance for the development of our company," he tells Popular Mechanics.

    Named Berkut, which translates to mean Golden Eagle or Royal Eagle, the S-37 bears an "S" rather than an "Su" designation because it is an experimental rather than production aircraft. Design of the aircraft, originally known as the S-32, began around 1983, and drew on many years of FSW research that had commenced in the former Soviet Union during the 1940s—initially using captured Nazi technology. The Russians were also well aware of the Grumman X-29 FSW research aircraft, as two of these single-seat, single-engine planes were being tested in America between 1984 and the early 1990s (see "The Outer Limits").

    The S-37, however, is almost twice the size of the X-29, with a markedly different configuration. It has a length of 74 ft. and a wingspan of 54 ft. 10 in., with a maximum takeoff weight of just under 75,000 pounds. Power comes from two Aviadvigatel (Perm) D-30F6 turbofans, each developing 34,177 pounds of static thrust with afterburners—but without a thrust-vector ring. Together the engines give the S-37 a respectable, if unspectacular, top speed of around Mach 1.6. The aircraft may be re-engined with Sukhoi's preferred option of two Lyulka (Saturn) AL-41F turbofans with thrust vectoring, when these formidable engines—which pour out 39,350 pounds of static thrust with afterburners—become available.
    Unconventional Design

    The real innovations in the S-37 lie within its unconventional design. The swept-forward wing is part of a so-called "tandem triplane" arrangement, blending all-moving forward canards with the swept-forward wing, a short-span broad-chord swept horizontal tail plus outward-canted vertical tailplanes. To speed up manufacturing, some parts of the S-37 were borrowed from the Su-27 series, including the undercarriage and vertical tails, but the main flying surfaces are all new. The S-37's FSW layout meets Sukhoi's desire to create a fighter with super-maneuverability—one capable of maintaining stability and control at almost any altitude and angle of attack. Critical to achieving this is the aircraft's computerized fly-by-wire control system, probably similar to that used in the Su-35 and Su-37, which allows for the basically unstable aerodynamics of the aircraft to be under control at all times. Vital in dogfights, this system, coupled with the FSW layout, helps the S-37 reach the optimum attitude for launching missiles at short- and medium-range opponents. Pogosyan, formerly the chief designer of the S-37, points out that agility was a top priority. "We were looking for the technical solutions to increase aircraft maneuverability in close combat."

    The S-37's forward-swept, slightly tapered wing has leading-edge flaps and trailing-edge flaps and ailerons. Compared to a normal swept-back wing, the FSW potentially has better lift, good antispin and stall resistance, and allows a shorter takeoff run. At transonic speeds (around Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.3), it has a better lift-to-drag ratio than a conventional wing. During flight, airflow is directed inward across the wing's section, thus preventing aileron and tip stall at higher angles of attack, and allowing better control response at high angles of attack. That's great for dogfighting. The key to all this is the use of up to 90 percent composite materials in the wing's structure. Sukhoi has made a major breakthrough in the use of advanced composites in the S-37's wing, and these have proven able to cope with the considerable bending and structural loading on this type of wing during close-in maneuvering across a wide speed range.

    The FSW concept is very different from plans we've seen for the stealthy F-22 Raptor, its potential American rival (see "21st Century Fighter," Dec. 1999). Although the S-37 does have some stealth design features, and may be covered with radar-absorbent coatings, low detectability is secondary to the maneuverability created by the FSW.
    Secret Flight Tests

    The S-37 first flew in September 1997 at the Russian experimental base at Zhukovsky near Moscow. Test flights have been successful so far, with Sukhoi claiming that the S-37 has made more than 120 flights. But many questions remain.

    Will it remain simply as a proof-of-concept aircraft, with no actual production S-37 ever made? Will its radical technology be used in forthcoming Russian fighter designs, perhaps to meet the Russian air force's future heavy fighter requirements? Or will it form the basis of the already-rumored S-54 light fighter, a possible Russian rival to America's Joint Strike Fighter? It can certainly be said that a production model of the S-37 would be a match for any Western fighter.

    The S-37's big rival in Russia is the MiG 1.44. This experimental twin-engined fighter first flew, after many lengthy delays, in February 2000. Most Western observers believe that the MiG design, and not the S-37, will ultimately lead to a production fighter. However, Sukhoi has a possible trump card. The new Russian president, Vladimir Putin, is particularly friendly toward Sukhoi, and his planned reforms of Russia's aircraft industry could benefit Sukhoi. Pogosyan tells PM he is upbeat: "We have a good design and scientific organization, which enables us to successfully compete with the West."

    Much of the S-37 program remains veiled in secrecy, but its potentially world-beating design truly extends the boundaries of state-of-the-art fighter technology.

    This story originally appeared in the January 2001 issue of Popular Mechanics.


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    Is F 22 is the ultimate figher or cant it be shot down

    Post  moskit on Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:39 am

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    Batajnica

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Batajnica on Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:49 pm

    I think that there are many step to hit F22,Russia air force so.

    I am Chinese ,know the PLAA`s tactics and air defence system

    with the VHF radar and many of rada systemes or photoelectric detection systemes on the borad area
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    kvs

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  kvs on Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:25 pm

    Batajnica wrote:I think that there are many step to hit F22,Russia air force so.

    I am Chinese ,know the PLAA`s tactics and air defence system

    with the VHF radar and many of rada systemes or photoelectric detection systemes on the borad area

    Stealth has become a myth. It was a 1960s solution to the primitive monochrome radars of that period. One could design an
    aircraft to avoid a single such primitive radar but not a network of them. So from day one this wunderwaffe was limited.
    Modern multi-spectrum detection systems completely defeat stealth. This is not even understood or known by stealth
    fanboys. So no, the F-22 and B-2 are not "invisible" to Russian detection systems.
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    Batajnica

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Batajnica on Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:14 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Batajnica wrote:I think that there are many step to hit F22,Russia air force so.

    I am Chinese ,know the PLAA`s tactics and air defence system

    with the VHF radar and many of rada systemes or photoelectric detection systemes on the borad area

    Stealth has become a myth.   It was a 1960s solution to the primitive monochrome radars of that period.   One could design an
    aircraft to avoid a single such primitive radar but not a network of them.   So from day one this wunderwaffe was limited.  
    Modern multi-spectrum detection systems completely defeat stealth.    This is not even understood or known by stealth
    fanboys.   So no, the F-22 and B-2 are not "invisible" to Russian detection systems.  


    I know it

    X band detect RCS=0.005 ,maximum rang=16 to 20 Km
    S band detect RCS=0.011,maximum rang=25 to 30
    VHF band can Normal detection the F22 or B2

    China have make the VHF band phased array radar,and exhibit in Zhuhai 2016 airshow
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:11 am

    Stealth is not the super all powerful game changer, but is also not the useless white elephant it is claimed to be.

    Against a target like Iraq or Syria a stealth aircraft is a serious threat... especially when used with non stealthy aircraft in support.

    Russia and China have been trying to deal with issues of stealth threats for over two decades now, but also to deal with large organised and coordinated threats... both of which required a unified coordinated IADS.

    For the question is Russia safe from the F-22 and B-2 the answer is of course no... for the same reason that the US is not safe from a 1960s propeller driven strategic bomber called Tu-95.

    If WWIII breaks out subsonic bombers will be gone from their airfields by the time the enemies SLBMs and ICBMs arrive on target. Those subsonic bombers will fly for 8 hours or so and then release their weapons in an environment where 6-7 hours previously lots of nuclear weapons have just detonated so most air defences will be in tatters... B-52s and B-2s and Tu-95s will get through because odds are nothing will be there to stop them. Tu-160s will also make it to their launch positions and their 5,000km range cruise missiles will also likely explode without warning a few hours later.

    The F-22 is smaller than the B-2 which makes it harder to make stealthy against longer wave radar and of course it is not stealthy in the IR spectrum at all.

    The optical guidance of Verba and likely new Russian IIR guided AAMs should make the F-22 very vulnerable... and even simple cannon fire will deal with a B-2.


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:37 am

    It is an interesting topics.

    The target of "stealth" is to avoid the horizontal detection of airplane in the cm wavelength range

    It is important because the passive seeker head of the SA or AA rockets is too small to fit anything with longer wavelenght . Example the old, 70s vintage air defence system can see the stealth planes, but it can't illuminate them for the sam rockets.

    But example a big arirplane (like su 2x/3x ) big enough to fit a meter wavelength 4-6 elements passive (active? ) radar, that can pinpoint the position of the stealth plane by few km accuracy .

    However the shaping has a few interesting implications.

    The aircraft not absorbing the radar waves, but reflecting them upwards on the uppor surface of the plane, and back/down on the down surface.

    Additionally , the stealth plane is visible for the X band radars from above , at least in 45 degree, but maybe in a wider cone.

    Means that if you have a ballistic SAM that going up to above 100 km then it can detect see the illumination of the X band radars perfectly, and can hit the target.


    Or you can use dual / triple channel rockets, that use IR/UV to pinpoint the target, and using active guidance from long wave radars to get close to the target say at least 10km distance.

    If anyone check the new gen S-400 rockets then it is quite clear they either using short range dual seeker design, or long range ballistic design. So it attack the planes from above , with passive or active X seeker head.
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    kvs

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  kvs on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:13 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:It is an interesting topics.

    The target of "stealth" is to avoid the horizontal detection of airplane in the cm wavelength range

    It is important  because the passive seeker head of the SA or AA rockets is too small to fit anything with longer wavelenght . Example the old, 70s vintage air defence system can see the stealth planes, but it can't illuminate them for the sam rockets.

    But example a big arirplane (like su 2x/3x ) big enough to fit a meter wavelength 4-6 elements passive (active? ) radar, that can pinpoint the position of the stealth plane by few km accuracy .

    The wavelength limitation can be overcome with phased arrays. The size of the missile no longer matters. Also, the missiles could be networked much
    like the radio telescopes used by astronomers to get a much larger effective antenna.

    However the shaping has a few interesting implications.

    The aircraft not absorbing the radar waves, but reflecting them upwards on the uppor surface of the plane, and back/down on the down surface.

    This is classical ray tracing and not quantum reflection. Quantum mechanics results in a hemispherical distribution of the scattered photons around the
    position of the classical ray where there is a peak amplitude. So increasing the sensitivity of detectors (via GaN components for example) will totally
    defeat these geometric tricks.

    Additionally , the stealth plane is visible for the X band radars from above , at least in 45 degree, but maybe in a wider cone.

    Means that if you have a ballistic SAM that going up to above 100 km then it can detect see the illumination of the X band radars perfectly, and can hit the target.


    Or you can use dual / triple channel rockets, that use IR/UV to pinpoint the target, and using active guidance from long wave radars to get close to the target say at least 10km  distance.

    If anyone check the new gen S-400 rockets then it is quite clear they either using short range dual seeker design, or long range ballistic design. So it attack the planes from above , with passive or active X seeker head.

    This just supports the fact that stealth is a "solution" designed to deal with ancient monochrome radars. Now the "radars" have evolved far beyond
    what they were back in the 1960s.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:57 pm

    Radio telescope is a different matter, in that case the direction of the antennas the same, so it has better gain.


    In the case of multiple rockets play the role of antenna network you try to find the direction of the signal, with low directional gains antennas.


    If you do it with multiple rocket then you need quite precise location and timing signal for the rockets, and high speed data connection.

    Not impossible, but extremely complicated and expensive.


    GaN is an emitter technology, make possible higher efficiency and smaller size EMITTER . It doesn't has business with the receiver part of the circuit.


    As I remember the CCCP air defence used multiple band radars, VHF early warning, UHF target detection and X band illumination / vertical angling ones.

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    ABout stealth technology ,F-35 and F-22.

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:05 am

    ABout stealth technology ,F-35 and F-22. 
    Russia have many ways to deal with those planes , The general of Russian army
    forgot his name , that warned NATO alliance in Syria with shutting down their planes
    and that Amateurs (NATO generals) who believe there is something like invisible planes ,that
    their radars cannot detect will face a disappointing reality in Syria.  pirat

    So what are the challenges if F-22 or F-35 or B-2 will face if they try to enter in Russia?

    1)First Geography matters , because Russia is so big , No NATO stealth airforce will ever 
    have a chance to create a no fly zone in Russia , because of the size of Russia .
    2)Because NATO Awacs are not stealth ,but very visible world war 2 like planes and will be shutdown way before they get close to Russian borders. Means any stealth plane inside Russia territory will be on its own , and will be unable to scan any target without turning on their radars which will expose them.
    3)Pantsirs have thermal optics to detect infra red head signals that no stealth plane
    can hide. If it gets hot it will be detected easily. Specially if Heat scanners or pantsirs
     deployed at Russian borders. This means that any B-2 /F-22 or F-35 will not know where the Pantsirs are , since they can track stealth planes with passive heat sensor radars ,that will not radiate the air defense location.  So any stealth plane that fly withing 20km of a pantsir will be
    like a minefield in the air. You will not know where the patsirs are since they are mobile and they will shutdown your planes if fly near. Cool  

    4)As any one pointed Russia have ultra low band radars to detect stealth planes at so decent distances.  So if a pantsir is deployed in Russian coast and NATO planes needs to bomb moscow ,then it will need to fly near 1,000km to enter moscow and will be flying over hundreds of sensors and radars that will paint not only its heat signals but also its radio waves from many angles at same time. Means no chance to hide flying so close to hundreds of air defenses with radars. 
    5)Then you have Russia electronic warfare ,that not only works to blind enemy radars ,not only works to blind enemy missiles and enemy drones but also they can damage the electronics of any plane too ,harm the pilot but also block the datalink between the F-35 and the Awac guiding it. So it will be blind. A combat plane small nose radar is not match to this.
    This means that even in the case that a nation manage to invent technology to be invisible their planes to anything , their missiles if guided by radio will be jammed and blinded. and will lose control of it the pilot or the awac and if the Russian operators with some efforts could even hijack the missile and deviate it to another course, same way Russia/IRAN can do that with US drones.
    6)Russia sunflower radars can see over the horizon up to 3,000km distance any stealth plane
    as if it was a world war 2 plane. Stealth does not matter.
     
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201608101044129781-russia-podsolnukh-radar/

    7)Finally ,and perhaps it is part of the previous one , Rogozin have told Russia have technology that Scan stealth planes without them knowing they are being detected.
    Because it does not use radio waves, the system they have powerful Magnetic beams (the way i understood it) that scan the the air electric fields. So anything electric machine that fly ,that produce heat ,noise and emit always electricity even is small , the stealth plane will  interfere with the electric fields around the plane and this anomaly can be seen by Russian electromagnetic radars. 

    So what we have now?  The F-35 ,F-22 or B-2 in case of declared war ,those planes will not be very effective fighting inside Russia main land ,in a warned war ,without being detected or shutdown. 
    a surprise first strike attack ,without declaring war or any warning ,it might be able to penetrate 30km to 50km with the confusion between generals and government in not believing the information . or what to do.. it is a defector? or is a hostile  pilot with hostile intentions?

    All things said , this does not means stealth planes are useless.otherwise Russia will not be making them. they are better than not having them.  Against third world countries ,they are very useful ,for stand off strikes , that is keep distance enter a bit and leave. 

    So all said , the only realistic potentially good use of F-22 /F-35 or B-2 will be to target Russia Kalingrad that is a small piece of land ,and that NATO could use stealth planes to attack kalingrad ,taking advantage how close the plane can fly legally over any city of kalinigrad without invading their airpspace. Another good use of F-22 or F-35 will be against Russia or China navy from long range attacks. Stealth planes are ideal to fight navies of other nations 
    because of their limited air defense range .currenlty Kirov class S-300 only have 90km range 
    their air defense missiles. The Gorshov class probably 120km. So enter up to 90km range fire a missile and run back. Awacks will be safe from any Russian navy air defenses. This means 
    that for an effective use of stealth planes , NATO will have to fight Russia far from its main land where territory is huge and defenses too strong for NATO, if want to avoid big loses. or if they don't mind loses ,but want to do a first strike ,then stealth attacks from baltics or poland against kaliningrad is the way.
    Cool And if that wasn't bad enough , Any stealth plane will be welcome by Russian airforce too.
    So Russia airforce will push even further any attempt of NATO of flying to close to Russian 
    airspace. So this is why the interceptions of NATO planes or warships is done frequently. To push them out of your borders.

    all said.. is not stealth planes what Russia needs to be worried. Russia not even need Pak-fa at all ,their air defenses are more than good . What Russia needs to be worried is Americans star wars project , the full denial space to Russia ,deploying weapons in space ,kinetic missiles and deploying robots in space that will be iddle/sleeping for the right moment and order to attack a Russia satelite or even guide nuclear missiles to Russia.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Isos

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    Who cares if it's supposed to lunch cruise missiles from 3000 km

    Post  Isos on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:24 pm

    Even if B-2 was made out of stainless steel, it would still have about... 100 times less RCS than Tu-95, i really hope you are aware of that... Bear is turboprop, its reflecting so much back to reciever that it looks like flying building.

    Sure, you sacrifice speed, and you gain range, loitering, stealth... let alone fact that B-2 in terms of avionics is about...lightyears than any other bomber in existence, might even keep being so till replacement arrives.

    There is no perfect answer, something needs to be sacrificed. I personally prefer to sacrifice speed out of all above listed.

    Who cares if it's supposed to lunch cruise missiles from 3000 km, it doesn't need stealth. If it's supposed to lunch unguided bombs from 5km from the target it will be seen by the air defence and shoot down.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Militarov on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:49 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Even if B-2 was made out of stainless steel, it would still have about... 100 times less RCS than Tu-95, i really hope you are aware of that... Bear is turboprop, its reflecting so much back to reciever that it looks like flying building.

    Sure, you sacrifice speed, and you gain range, loitering, stealth... let alone fact that B-2 in terms of avionics is about...lightyears than any other bomber in existence, might even keep being so till replacement arrives.

    There is no perfect answer, something needs to be sacrificed. I personally prefer to sacrifice speed out of all above listed.

    Who cares if it's supposed to lunch cruise missiles from 3000 km, it doesn't need stealth. If it's supposed to lunch unguided bombs from 5km from the target it will be seen by the air defence and shoot down.

    Pilots care. You do not operate in vacoom, when you take off from Murmansk area and fly pass Sweden (lets go with it for purpose of explaining), they will see you flying Bear probably on EWRs stationed 3.000km away. Its not like you are evading SHORADs placed randomly somewhere, you are evading hundreds of radars, hundreds of aircraft.

    Today, "meter" radars will probably detect B-2 on fairly reasonable range if conventional mission is in question, and then what? What will you launch aganist it when its appearing and disappearing on your guidance radar, when its jamming you...because your guidance radars are of far lower frequency, you know its there but you do not have the sling.

    You launch fighters but you do not know if its followed by other stealth fighters or its alone, or if its even there where you see it or its you being spoofed and its actually 70km in other direction. Stealth is nasty business, our AD knows it very well.

    Also why do you then need speed if you are launching cruise missiles from 3000km Smile? Speed is not an answer anymore, air defence systems became far more dangerous than they were 40 years ago.

    Also B-2 is not all that slow either.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:57 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Even if B-2 was made out of stainless steel, it would still have about... 100 times less RCS than Tu-95, i really hope you are aware of that... Bear is turboprop, its reflecting so much back to reciever that it looks like flying building.

    Sure, you sacrifice speed, and you gain range, loitering, stealth... let alone fact that B-2 in terms of avionics is about...lightyears than any other bomber in existence, might even keep being so till replacement arrives.

    There is no perfect answer, something needs to be sacrificed. I personally prefer to sacrifice speed out of all above listed.

    Who cares if it's supposed to lunch cruise missiles from 3000 km, it doesn't need stealth. If it's supposed to lunch unguided bombs from 5km from the target it will be seen by the air defence and shoot down.

    Pilots care. You do not operate in vacoom, when you take off from Murmansk area and fly pass Sweden (lets go with it for purpose of explaining), they will see you flying Bear probably on EWRs stationed 3.000km away. Its not like you are evading SHORADs placed randomly somewhere, you are evading hundreds of radars, hundreds of aircraft.

    Today, "meter" radars will probably detect B-2 on fairly reasonable range if conventional mission is in question, and then what? What will you launch aganist it when its appearing and disappearing on your guidance radar, when its jamming you...because your guidance radars are of far lower frequency, you know its there but you do not have the sling.

    You launch fighters but you do not know if its followed by other stealth fighters or its alone, or if its even there where you see it or its you being spoofed and its actually 70km in other direction. Stealth is nasty business, our AD knows it very well.

    Also why do you then need speed if you are launching cruise missiles from 3000km Smile? Speed is not an answer anymore, air defence systems became far more dangerous than they were 40 years ago.

    Also B-2 is not all that slow either.

    The B-2 aren't anywhere that effective now this isn't the 1990's or early 2000 those things can be tracked with zero problems.

    also whats detecting it ground base radars? if so they will know if fighters are around.

    I hate this myth about stealth planes. They are designed to hide their FRONTAl signature only from other planes Stealth is USELESS against Ground base defenses.

    Belguim could detect the F-22 with their ground base systems back when the thing was brand new and the stealth was cracked on the B-2 over 10 years ago.

    Mind you we only have about 20 of them. Hardly enough to use on a major nation.
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    Isos

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Isos on Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:05 pm

    A B-2 won't go in Russia to drop bombs because it would be detected and destroyed. Neither a Tu-160 which is a strategic bomber meant to carry nuclear strikes will go Europe to drop bombs.

    Kh-55 family have a range that put the bomber out of danger from ground and air threats. Their is no fighter that could intercept it from lets say 1500/2000 km from it shores. This means it could target 1500km inside the country and its low flying with a RCS of less than 0.01 m² for the last variants, good luck finding it.

    What your saying is true for a bomber used like in WW II, not for a Tu-160 which from it's airbase can target all countries in europe and middle east and can go at 2000 km from US west coast and not be engaged if it avoids aircraft carriers. They have 15 of them, they won't send them to bomb like in Syria and be destroyed.

    I'm not really following this thread, but if Pak Da is a new strategic bomber it's useless. Tu-160 is far enough. But if it's tactical bomber then yes they should make it stealth. But they already have Su-34, with Pak Fa, it is a nice tactical group which can penetrate deep in ennemy's territory. If they want to go deeper with bigger bombers then fighter won't be able to follow and they won't have air support and will probably be shoot down before reaching the target, stealth or not, US or Russian.

    There isn't lot of airfields where a B-2 can land if I'm correct. And they have just 21 of them (If pak Da is similar to it, Russia will produce 10 or so, not more) which can be targeted by submarine's cruise missiles.

    Also why do you then need speed if you are launching cruise missiles from 3000km Smile? Speed is not an answer anymore, air defence systems became far more dangerous than they were 40 years ago.

    I don't get what you're talking about scratch I never talked about speed. Well if you know a patriot missiles was lunched, it's better to run at mach 1.5 than at mach 0.8 Laughing That's the main purpose of a supersonic speed for a bomber, to escape.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:39 pm

    Militarov wrote:





    Today, "meter" radars will probably detect B-2 on fairly reasonable range if conventional mission is in question, and then what? What will you launch aganist it when its appearing and disappearing on your guidance radar, when its jamming you...because your guidance radars are of far lower frequency, you know its there but you do not have the sling.

    You launch fighters but you do not know if its followed by other stealth fighters or its alone, or if its even there where you see it or its you being spoofed and its actually 70km in other direction. Stealth is nasty business, our AD knows it very well.

    The B-2 will get 4-16 40N6 missile.

    The active homing long range missiles has been desinged for the b2s I presume.

    it needs 10 km box , and it will found the aircraft in that box on its own.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Militarov on Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:16 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:





    Today, "meter" radars will probably detect B-2 on fairly reasonable range if conventional mission is in question, and then what? What will you launch aganist it when its appearing and disappearing on your guidance radar, when its jamming you...because your guidance radars are of far lower frequency, you know its there but you do not have the sling.

    You launch fighters but you do not know if its followed by other stealth fighters or its alone, or if its even there where you see it or its you being spoofed and its actually 70km in other direction. Stealth is nasty business, our AD knows it very well.

    The B-2 will get 4-16 40N6 missile.

    The active homing long range missiles has been desinged for the b2s I presume.

    it needs 10 km box , and it will found the aircraft in that box on its own.

    Woah.. woah... hold your horses, that is not how guidance works.

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