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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    sepheronx
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:50 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:50% of russia doesnt have high altitude coverage and you can roam around it in ANY kind of aircraft (stelth or non-stelth) and that is the sad truth my friend...
    Thats why hundreads of ,Tu-128, Mig-25 were built , why MIG-31 still today exists, etc. and it has to turn on its radar to scan for posible enemies. F-22 will detect radiation ,use Aesa LPI to pinpoint its location ,it will then using supercruise creep up on mig-31 who is chasing Tankers because its the only thing it can see ,not the stealth F-22, and finish it.
    Let be realistic -there is a reason one of Russias first Aesa radars ,they finally developed, for PVO , is a low frequency! search radar!

    Due you have a fricking link? I asked you so many times. If not, I wish you were banned for the bullshit.

    Please, provide a link.

    Second of all, those Tankers would not need to be chased like you claim, they would be shot down far away. Farther away than F-22 can reach the MiG-31.

    I seriously doubt your knowledge.
    R-37 will have 50% range or less against a chasing target thats basic balistics. Rolling Eyes
    While MiG-31 will get into a no escape zone for amraam much sooner because there is a F-22 inbetween going at it.
    What?
    No problem.
    Belive it or not i posted the link in this same topic Shocked - Post n°421 .
    Instead of giving negative votes, first read, and try to understand. Arrow
    Calm down and dont be lazy. Mad Razz

    You posted a link that you mentioned yourself in another post and a link regarding MiG-31 production to re-start, neither of wich really covers what you are talking about. You are trying to avoid the task at hand because you have nothing to base yourself on.

    Might I suggest you go over planemans posts on MP.net, they are actually informative, more so than yourself.

    At that tankers and AWACS are not known for speed. So if MiG-31BM is chasing the AWACS or Tanker, it would catch up to it a lot quicker, as well, it would be quite quick in dealing with it from long ranges. At that, if a Tanker is being chased, so would the F-22's that it is supposed to provide air coverage, so how would the AMRAAM get close to the MiG-31BM when it is behind them?

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:03 pm

    That was a link about serious parliamentary debate about actually restarting MiG-31 production.
    A very serious thing ,sorry no video of it but it had allot of interesting things in the debate. And nobody here provided another information. And viktor agreed to it in the pantcir thread.

    I dont know what is the fuss even 10% of Russia where F-22 is very vunerable is like the size of Iran or Lybia ,approx. ,thats good enough to cover Moscow ,st. pete, south urals ,caucasus ,south siberia, all major things.

    Isnt stealth wonderful Very Happy ,and that justifies billions poured into it.
    You think all those people in DoD are dumb to invest billions into something not worth a thing???
    How much russia invested into plasma stealth Laughing and got -nothing dunno tongue

    That plainman guy is wrong on many things , but drawing circles over a map is just rubbish, really at distance over 400km every radar is blind to a target 10km high due to simple radar horizon.There are, hills ,mountains that create shadows ,down time for repairs, drawing circles to prove a point has zero analytical value.


    Last edited by Rpg type 7v on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:10 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : typos)

    sepheronx
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:08 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:That was a link about serious parliamentary debate about actually restarting MiG-31 production. A ver yserious thing ,sorry no video of it but it had allot of interesting things in the debate. And nobody here provided another information. And viktor agreed to it in the pantcir thread.
    I dont know what is the fuss even 105 of Russia where F-22 is very vunerable is like the size of Iran or Lybia ,approx. ,thats good enough to cover Moscow ,st. pete, south urals ,caucasus ,south siberia, all major things.
    Isnt stealth wonderful Very Happy ,and that justified billions poured into it.
    That plainman guy is wrong on many things , but drawing circles over a map is just rubbish, really at distance over 400km every radar is blind to a target 10km high due to simple radar horizon.There are, hills ,mountains that create shadows ,down time for repairs, drawing circles to prove a point has zero analytical value.

    First off, I don't even care if Viktor or whomever agreed to whatever, doesn't make it right. Second of all, I don't even know WTF this means, third off, Planeman has been correct on many occasians, as well as provide back up data, read his post. You on the other hand, have not on a single occasian when I asked.

    Sorry, but you have no idea what you are on about.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:19 pm

    that plainman mixed bmd defence ,aircraft ,radars , old ,new , and what not, to create some fortress...
    lol1
    does he post here?
    i have just 2 questions which would crush his empty theories like a house of cards. pirat
    You actually belive in those pretty rousy pictures? Shocked
    Im dissapointed. really. cry

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:27 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    At that tankers and AWACS are not known for speed. So if MiG-31BM is chasing the AWACS or Tanker, it would catch up to it a lot quicker, as well, it would be quite quick in dealing with it from long ranges. At that, if a Tanker is being chased, so would the F-22's that it is supposed to provide air coverage, so how would the AMRAAM get close to the MiG-31BM when it is behind them?
    you imagination is running wild.
    the tankers would turn but the F-22 would go out to confront incoming agressor.
    Thats basic operations procedure.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:44 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:that plainman mixed bmd defence ,aircraft ,radars , old ,new , and what not, to create some fortress...
    lol1
    does he post here?
    i have just 2 questions which would crush his empty theories like a house of cards. pirat
    You actually belive in those pretty rousy pictures? Shocked
    Im dissapointed. really. cry

    Post links please. Really. post them. And I mean links that actually are in refence to what we are talking about.

    Till then, I will not even talk to you. If you can crush his theories, then go ahead. But do so with links, and not empty words. I am going to request to the mods that you start posting backup information.

    Edit: I already PM'd a MOD to start asking you to post refence links when requested.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:18 pm

    yeah ,you too.
    and please -dont link to a private blogger drawing circles as "evidence" Rolling Eyes

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:09 pm

    "How much russia invested into plasma stealth Laughing and got -nothing dunno tongue "

    Why don't you tell us?
    You seem to enjoy making unsubstantiated claims and panic mongering Smile

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:10 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    The difference is that the Raptor only carries 6 missiles, while the Mig-31BM can carry at least 8 and possibly more.
    really? Laughing
    plz provide some evidence ,picture or smthing dunno ,that current operational mig-31bm carrys 8 R-37m missiles? ,or any other combination of missiles anyway if its easier for you... clown

    You don't know that MiG-31BM has 4 pylons + 4 underbelly stations?


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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:15 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:that plainman mixed bmd defence ,aircraft ,radars , old ,new , and what not, to create some fortress...
    lol1
    does he post here?
    i have just 2 questions which would crush his empty theories like a house of cards. pirat
    You actually belive in those pretty rousy pictures? Shocked
    Im dissapointed. really. cry

    Post links please. Really. post them. And I mean links that actually are in refence to what we are talking about.

    Till then, I will not even talk to you. If you can crush his theories, then go ahead. But do so with links, and not empty words. I am going to request to the mods that you start posting backup information.

    Edit: I already PM'd a MOD to start asking you to post refence links when requested.

    I have but he does not get the hint



    also RPG type 7v never call fellow members idiots here

    Actually you dont have to belive me or think im sucking up , im not interested in that at all, but i do value this forum allot. Me like it here.
    Its much more wider in a sense,and open for discussion ,yes there are idiots here like everywhere, but i think this is on a good path and moderation is very solid.
    So credit's given where credits due.
    May the best forum win. Very Happy


    STRIKE 1 and I really don't want to ban anyone here guys so keep it civil guys.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:02 pm

    eally? Laughing
    plz provide some evidence ,picture or smthing dunno ,that current operational mig-31bm carrys 8 R-37m missiles? ,or any other combination of missiles anyway if its easier for you... clown

    Where did I say it carried 8 x R-37M missiles?

    Four R-37M missiles can be carried under the belly of the aircraft leaving four wing pylons free for any combination of R-40TD, R-60MK, R-73, R-77M and indeed R-37M... In fact with 4 belly mounted R-37M missiles and the two inner wing pylons carrying four R-60MK missiles on double adaptors that leaves two wing pylons for two R-37M, R-77m, R-40TD, or R-33.

    50% of russia doesnt have high altitude coverage and you can roam around it in ANY kind of aircraft (stealth or non-stealth) and that is the sad truth my friend...

    Big empty open areas... but to get to those areas you have to approach the Russian border and the Russian border does have radar surveillance.

    Thats why hundreads of ,Tu-128, Mig-25 were built , why MIG-31 still today exists, etc. and it has to turn on its radar to scan for posible enemies. F-22 will detect radiation ,use Aesa LPI to pinpoint its location ,it will then using supercruise creep up on mig-31 who is chasing Tankers because its the only thing it can see ,not the stealth F-22, and finish it.

    The Mig-31s operate at mach 2.4... the F-22s wont be creeping up on them any time soon... and if they did they would be spotted via IRST because supercruising means IR signature.

    Let be realistic -there is a reason one of Russias first Aesa radars ,they finally developed, for PVO , is a low frequency! search radar!

    Low frequency means long waves and large antennas. They made it an AESA because its antenna elements are enormous anyway.

    They made them low frequency so they can see stealthy aircraft at normal ranges... pretty much the same range they can detect other objects.

    Low frequency radar are notoriously not very accurate, but with an AESA antenna and digital signal processing they have managed to create a system accurate enough to direct interceptors into a small enough area that they should be able to find the targets with IRST and/or active radar.

    R-37 will have 50% range or less against a chasing target thats basic balistics.

    R-37 had a measured range of 300km to target impact during tests, and R-37M is better and should also be able to engage 9g targets at 300km range... launched from a Mach 2.4 aircraft flying at over 15km altitude its performance should actually be much better.

    While MiG-31 will get into a no escape zone for amraam much sooner because there is a F-22 inbetween going at it.

    Amraam doesn't have a no escape zone for a target that will actively jam and defend itself and fly at 18km at mach 2.4.

    really at distance over 400km every radar is blind to a target 10km high due to simple radar horizon.

    Perhaps you should read up on OTH radar...

    There are, hills ,mountains that create shadows ,down time for repairs, drawing circles to prove a point has zero analytical value.

    The approaches the F-22 will take... over the north pole... has no major mountains AFAIK, but then of the 189 made two are no longer a problem and the remainder will never operate anywhere near Russia for their own self preservation and because their roles will be to try to deal with Russian bombers launching cruise missiles into US airspace.

    that plainman mixed bmd defence ,aircraft ,radars , old ,new , and what not, to create some fortress...
    lol1

    And why wouldn't he... the PVO and the Space Defence forces have combined to create the Aerospace defence forces which combines Air Force radar and BMD radar and early warning radar and aircraft and radars old and new to create a new branch of the military whose job it is to defend Russian airspace from ground level to outer space.

    the tankers would turn but the F-22 would go out to confront incoming agressor.
    Thats basic operations procedure.

    What makes you think the Mig-31s couldn't splash those tankers from very long range as they come over the pole?

    The OTH radar would easily detect the tankers and F-22s and pass data on to the intercepting Mig-31s... they are all part of the same service now... the VKKO.



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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:21 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:

    Isnt stealth wonderful Very Happy ,and that justifies billions poured into it..

    yes you have to be thankful of Russian scientist for it. They invented the way for the design of stealth planes since the 40's ,and it was not until the 70's that Americans learned that Russians knew how to do it and copied their works in order to make them. He also told for ways to defeat stealth. So its not rocket science folk. it was wonderful in the 90's when there was planes no place in service that could effectively counter it . But today ,radar technology and other air defenses not only have catchup but surpass it.To the point that makes 'stealth technology' Useless against countries with modern radars and air defenses. Russia radar Voronezh-DM and M stations will have no problem detecting an F22 or B2 as far as 6,000 km away from it and without they been aware of being sppotted.

    One of the latest here http://rt.com/news/russia-new-surveillance-system-974/

    here notice how Russia can track any plane flying in North Africa space from Russia.

    http://youtu.be/vmdM_Z3Zzlw

    The believe that you can hide any B2/F22 and their tankers trying to enter Russia territories is wishful thinking.
    Russia radar stations were fully designed to defeat any stealth or future technology they spot spaces in the air,movements and heat. No matter what flying thing US invent ,you cannot evade the laws of physics. As was said earlier modern radars today can spot birds and water in the air could have close to zero RCS. If Powerful Radars can spot temperature of planets far away in other galaxies and its elements how much easier will be to scan the air space in the earth. .F-22/B2 or any other will not have any chance to fly anywhere close to any Russia territory without being detected. US have yet to proof it can fly over IRAN airspace undetected with any F22/B2 as they used to do in old soviet times to demonstrate their technology.If it was so 'undetectable' they will have sent them already over IRAN ,as a warning to them and not send unmanned stealth drones with smaller RCS that later end captured by IRAN. The sole reason that F22 have been never seen combat or invaded any foreign country Airspace as they did in Soviet times that flew over Soviet Union for some time, should give you an idea of how much confidence they have in their stealth planes. Not a lot. It will never be used in real practice in any war ,for the reasons that they know they have too few of them and because they can be spotted easily by thermal optics and modern radars.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:20 am

    If Powerful Radars can spot temperature of planets far away in other galaxies and its elements how much easier will be to scan the air space in the earth.

    No radar on earth could send a signal to another planet and detect the return.

    Powerful radio telescopes can detect the radio emissions of stars.


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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:33 am

    GarryB wrote:
    If Powerful Radars can spot temperature of planets far away in other galaxies and its elements how much easier will be to scan the air space in the earth.

    No radar on earth could send a signal to another planet and detect the return.

    Powerful radio telescopes can detect the radio emissions of stars.

    Wrong.
    Thats exactly the way radio telescopes works.. they send first a radio wave signal to the desired target and
    they later measure the time it takes to bounce back to the telescope.

    http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2011/3248.html


    Radio telescopes are just a different way of Radars ,Both operate sending radio signals and measuring the time it takes to bounce back.Telescopes area of scanning is more focused, the signals send RAdars takes a Wide Area of Space. You can design Radars to do both. lol So there is no contradiction ,you simple can design radars to do what you want fo astronomy or for locar airspace use..Radars can also detect high frequency signals that produce heat.. Like Russian Powerful Radars.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Hachimoto on Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:30 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    If Powerful Radars can spot temperature of planets far away in other galaxies and its elements how much easier will be to scan the air space in the earth.

    No radar on earth could send a signal to another planet and detect the return.

    Powerful radio telescopes can detect the radio emissions of stars.

    Wrong.
    Thats exactly the way radio telescopes works.. they send first a radio wave signal to the desired target and
    they later measure the time it takes to bounce back to the telescope.

    http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2011/3248.html


    Radio telescopes are just a different way of Radars ,Both operate sending radio signals and measuring the time it takes to bounce back.Telescopes area of scanning is more focused, the signals send RAdars takes a Wide Area of Space. You can design Radars to do both. lol So there is no contradiction ,you simple can design radars to do what you want fo astronomy or for locar airspace use..Radars can also detect high frequency signals that produce heat.. Like Russian Powerful Radars.

    Your link explain how RADAR work for detecting NEARBY asteroid !!

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Where did I say it carried 8 x R-37M missiles?

    Four R-37M missiles can be carried under the belly of the aircraft leaving four wing pylons free for any combination of R-40TD, R-60MK, R-73, R-77M and indeed R-37M... In fact with 4 belly mounted R-37M missiles and the two inner wing pylons carrying four R-60MK missiles on double adaptors that leaves two wing pylons for two R-37M, R-77m, R-40TD, or R-33.
    Still no answer, i know it can carry 4 on the fuselage , but can pylons carry 2 more , or 4 more r-37?
    Can it carry 4 R-77 (amraam equivalents) in total on wings?
    Were talking about operational aircraft now.

    GarryB wrote:
    The Mig-31s operate at mach 2.4... the F-22s wont be creeping up on them any time soon... and if they did they would be spotted via IRST because supercruising means IR signature.
    Chances for that are slim. very low.
    There is a reason fighter carry radar and not just IRSTs.
    GarryB wrote:
    Low frequency means long waves and large antennas. They made it an AESA because its antenna elements are enormous anyway.
    They made them low frequency so they can see stealthy aircraft at normal ranges... pretty much the same range they can detect other objects.
    Low frequency radar are notoriously not very accurate, but with an AESA antenna and digital signal processing they have managed to create a system accurate enough to direct interceptors into a small enough area that they should be able to find the targets with IRST and/or active radar.
    I agree with you.
    Like i said that is the reason search radars are primary on the list not aiming radars -(yet) , expanding the detection treshhold /wider low rcs envelope , and better tracking capabilities.
    Aesa elements together with much better processing in the rear end thanks to available electronics to russia has enabled that.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:18 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:

    Your link explain how RADAR work for detecting NEARBY asteroid !!

    Its the same process for everything. Planets ,stars ,comets,planes.What changes is the configuration of radars and way of doing it. You need First to know the position of your target by sending a signal and measuring the time it takes to bounce back. Radio telescope designed to concentrate its focus in a particular place in galaxy while Military Radars designed to cover wider areas at the same time in country airspace. When radars pointing upwards they can observe Stars ,when pointing downwards they can be used to observe weather.When Pointing horizontally they can observe air traffic inside and outside their airspace.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Hachimoto on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:35 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    Hachimoto wrote:

    Your link explain how RADAR work for detecting NEARBY asteroid !!

    Its the same process for everything. Planets ,stars ,comets,planes.What changes is the configuration of radars and way of doing it. You need First to know the position of your target by sending a signal and measuring the time it takes to bounce back. Radio telescope designed to concentrate its focus in a particular place in galaxy while Military Radars designed to cover wider areas at the same time in country airspace. When radars pointing upwards they can observe Stars ,when pointing downwards they can be used to observe weather.When Pointing horizontally they can observe air traffic inside and outside their airspace.

    Oh no i will not make a out of topic here but that way your 'signal' will return to eart ... let say not in short time hein Laughing

    beside we don't have today and in any near future the capacity to reach those distances without signal disperation

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:54 pm

    From Wiki:

    A radio telescope is a form of directional radio antenna used in radio astronomy. The same types of antennas are also used in tracking and collecting data from satellites and space probes. In their astronomical role they differ from optical telescopes in that they operate in the radio frequency portion of the electromagnetic spectrum where they can detect and collect data on radio sources. Radio telescopes are typically large parabolic ("dish") antennas used singly or in an array. Radio observatories are preferentially located far from major centers of population to avoid electromagnetic interference (EMI) from radio, TV, radar, and other EMI emitting devices. This is similar to the locating of optical telescopes to avoid light pollution, with the difference being that radio observatories are often placed in valleys to further shield them from EMI as opposed to clear air mountain tops for optical observatories.

    source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_telescope

    Everything in the universe is moving including space itself, and most things are rotating... to send a radar pulse to the nearest star (our sun) the reply would take about 17 minutes... 8.5 minutes each way... but the signal would be very very hard to pick up from all the noise already being emitted from the sun all the time.

    To send a signal to a nearby star would take years for the signal to go out and come back and would be incredibly weak and lost in the stars own emissions.

    Radio astronomy is passive listening for the most part.

    Still no answer, i know it can carry 4 on the fuselage , but can pylons carry 2 more , or 4 more r-37?
    Can it carry 4 R-77 (amraam equivalents) in total on wings?
    Were talking about operational aircraft now.

    Perhaps you have not noticed the BM upgrade? It can carry weapons on four wing pylons.

    Take a look at the bottom of this page:

    http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Foxbat-Foxhound-92.html

    There is a reason fighter carry radar and not just IRSTs.

    Of course there is... low flying slow targets have much less detectible IR signatures... high flying supercruising targets however have hot fronts where friction heats their skin and the height they fly means cold air around them... so apart from the sun they are alone in being hot things in cold environments... and no clouds or moisture to hide behind...



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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  coolieno99 on Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:47 am

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Russian Patriot wrote:
    I am sorry but do not underestimate other countries. Russia more than capable of denying F--22 access to its borders.
    I know ,this is pro-russian forum , some sacred cows are not to be disturbed  silent  
    But question yourself, to whom do you pay taxes?-that IS your country.

    There are 44 members of the U.S. Congress who hold dual citizenships (mostly to Israel). They are most likely more loyal to Israel than to the U.S.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  coolieno99 on Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:56 am

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    No... actually what will happen is that the Mig-31 will shoot down all the USAF tanker aircraft  flying over the north pole from 300km range and can the turn around and go home safe in the knowledge that the F-22s wont have enough fuel to get to Russia or Canada... that is if the oxygen system hasn't already suffocated the pilots sooner.


    Best post of the thread.
    actually the dumbest  respekt
    because you see the Mig-31 will light up on radar like a beacon in midnight, thanks to its huge RCS , and F-22 pilot will not read the newspaper in the cocpit while its supports are decimated ,but tell the tankers to turn and use stealth and LPI AESA to creep up on mig-31 and blast it from the sky without its pilot knowing what the hell happened (if they eject in time).
    Then the tankers will again turn around for attack and F-22 will complete its mission only this time adding expensive Russias AD Interceptors to its list of destroyed targets Cool...

    the biggest threat to the F-22 is the BUK-M2  SAM,  not the MiG-31.


    Rpg type 7v
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:44 am

    Unfortunately ussr/russian airspace has always been vulnerable to USA bombers.
    Fist it was high flying U-2 ,then high and fast Sr-71 ,after that stealth F-117 and now B-2. 
    Sure they spent allot of money to close the gap but russians were always behind the game.
    On the other hand the only operational aircraft they could fly over USA and stay  alive was?

    ....

    hmmm....

    unshavenunshavenunshaven

    confusedconfuseddunnopirattonguetonguesilentNeutral

    Idea

    Maybe supersonic dash Tu-160 ,even that actually outside of conus borders delivering cruise missiles and late in the cold war and in even fewer numbers then the B-2 itself.angel
    USA was invulnerable to Russias mediocre bombers .
    only thanks to icbm and cruise missiles was Russia able to keep up with the might of USA ,but in aviation they were inferior.

    TR1
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:16 am

    Well yeah, Russia didn't have a giant tanker force + bases all over EUrope and Asia.
    Russian aviation was more concered with the EUropean front, then uselessly spending money to fly over the US.

    You can go back to masterbating over the mighty USA though, nobody cares.

    Oh and S-125 made F-117 irrelivant, if we use your logic Very Happy
    Great return for spent money that turned out!

    Mindstorm
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:01 am

    Unfortunately ussr/russian airspace has always been vulnerable to USA bombers.
    Fist it was high flying U-2 ,then high and fast Sr-71 ,after that stealth F-117 and now B-2.

    Laughing  Laughing   Laughing



    Your is an horrible mixture of the most typical western inferiority complex and pathetical attempt of provoking.

    Don't worry, guy, all of us here are perfectly aware of what really and inadmissibly hide under your skin (and that of majority of western people that , like you, attempt to cover deep, rational perception of vulnerability with a childish and irrational show of false bravery and will to provoke    :

    You are totally aware that , taking into account the immense difference in size, sophistication and efficiency of IADS between URSS/Russian Federation and "that" of CONUS  - literally the same difference between, respectively, Mount Everest and a low hill  -  in the event of a war your airfields , C4 and industrial complex would be easily reduced to amass of smoking rubbles before being even only capable to arrange the logistical preparations necessary for the first air mission useful at being........massacred  by the most external layer of enemy IADS    (according to well know relation of "exponential degradation" of Air Force's potential vs enemy IADS  when one of the belligerent sides enjoy a substantial edge in size, density , sophistication and efficiency in IAD covering the integrity of the structures necessary to Air Force operations and hosting the same aircraft) .



    Sorry guy but your self-conscious attempts at provocation (or “trolling” if you want)  will now change or soothe of a bit the situation in the Reality this unsolvable strategic puzzle for your side....Very Happy

     

    Fist it was high flying U-2 ,then high and fast Sr-71 ,after that stealth F-117 and now B-2.



    The rare and...... very risky and often deadly-...... US reconnaissance missions over URSS was a thing of....'50 years,  all involved special modified not-combat airplanes , often taking-off from complaisant nations airfields placed outside of the at-time URSS early warning radar net's coverage and above all capitalizing altitude limits of SAM and interceptors of the time in some sectors
    From the '60 years on URSS airspace became ,at impressive rate, a true "suicide" area , forbidden even to those purposely stripped-out reconnaissance airplanes.

     
    SR-71 in particular became one of the most self-embarrassing humiliation for USAF command (in particular since MiG-31 induction in service) and widely laughed at by ПВО generals in its pathetic unsuccessful attempts to close URSS airspace ,  before the same concept of the feasibility of similar reconnaissance over URSS, with purposely built aircraft, was completely abandoned with ZERO intrusions by part of the SR-71 in URSS airspace.   


    Obviously since then up to today the situation is enormously worsened for USAF , its aircraft, its undefended airfields, C4 installations and ammunition/fuel storage assets inserted in simply pathetical IAD ; so, at now, it is nothing more than a mean to bully and exert influence ,with very low material and live losses ( low political cost in terms of internal PO's support) , over some undefended third world nation . Razz

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:49 pm

    Unfortunately ussr/russian airspace has always been vulnerable to USA bombers.

    Not as vulnerable as the west likes to think... the west is very air force oriented and their experience with Germany and Japan led them to believe that the bomber will always get through.

    The problem for the US was that their superiority in bomber numbers resulted in the Soviets developing and deploying ICBMs which the US had and still has no real defence against...

    Fist it was high flying U-2 ,then high and fast Sr-71 ,after that stealth F-117 and now B-2.

    Yes, aggressive imperial US constantly trying to find a way to break international law and violate Soviet/Russian airspace with impunity... works for a couple of years and then that option is closed off... in fact the solutions to stop high flying U-2s were likely to be just as effective against the SR-71 so the latter never even tried to fly over the Soviet Union or Russia and it was designed from the outset to fly parallel to borders and look sideways deep into territory.

    A direct consequence of such activity of course was the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians on KAL007... but of course the US wont accept any responsibility for that.

    Sure they spent allot of money to close the gap but russians were always behind the game.

    Perfectly understandible considering they were not the aggressor.

    On the other hand the only operational aircraft they could fly over USA and stay  alive was?

    Russian satellites pass over the US every day and the warheads of their ICBMs and likely their cruise missiles could do the same.

    Maybe supersonic dash Tu-160 ,even that actually outside of conus borders delivering cruise missiles and late in the cold war and in even fewer numbers then the B-2 itself.

    Why would you need a Tu-160 for standoff launching of long range cruise missiles?

    Tu-95MS16 could carry 16 cruise missiles each plus 12 for each Tu-160... these days every corvette and frigate as well as cruiser not to mention carrier and sub will be carrying Kalibr...

    USA was invulnerable to Russias mediocre bombers .

    US bombers were pointless. By the time they arrived to deliver their bombs the targets would have already been hit by ICBM or SLBM.

    US bombers were rubble spreaders... and very expensive ones.

    only thanks to icbm and cruise missiles was Russia able to keep up with the might of USA ,but in aviation they were inferior.

    The might? What good did the might of the US do?  Has it cured cancer? Has it saved the world from famine? Has it ensured basic human rights to all people?

    Or has it used its money and position and power... to maintain its wealth and position and otherwise talk a lot of sht about rights and the truth and justice while ignoring the rights of non US citizens, ignoring the truth and of course ignoring justice and just seeking revenge.

    By its own morals and standards it has failed... and continues to fail... and its greatest fear is not that it will or is failing... but that everyone will recognise the façade for what it is... all the bad guys we were supposed to fear that were a threat to world peace and democracy and truth and justice... there was only ever one threat to world peace and democracy and truth and justice and that was and is the US of A... or more accurately its successive governments... republican and democratic.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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