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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    Russian Patriot
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:36 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Russian Patriot wrote:
    I am sorry but do not underestimate other countries. Russia more than capable of denying F--22 access to its borders.
    I know ,this is pro-russian forum , some sacred cows are not to be disturbed silent
    But question yourself, to whom do you pay taxes?-that IS your country.

    excuse me? This has nothing to do with being Pro or Anti. Even the pentagon admitted that F22 had problems evading radar.


    About taxes, that is none of your business,and do not tell me where my loyalties should lie, I have two countries telling me to do that.

    - Warning given

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  SOC on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:09 pm

    [quote="Russian Patriot"][quote="Rpg type 7v"]
    Russian Patriot wrote:

    About taxes, that is none of your business,and do not tell me where my loyalties should lie, I have two countries telling me to do that.


    Russia may or may not be safe from the Raptor, but NOBODY is safe from taxes! pwnd

    AlfaT8
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:10 am

    [quote="SOC"][quote="Russian Patriot"]
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Russian Patriot wrote:

    About taxes, that is none of your business,and do not tell me where my loyalties should lie, I have two countries telling me to do that.


    Russia may or may not be safe from the Raptor, but NOBODY is safe from taxes! pwnd
    Except big global mostly American corporations. Wink

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:16 am

    [quote="AlfaT8"][quote="SOC"]
    Russian Patriot wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Russian Patriot wrote:

    About taxes, that is none of your business,and do not tell me where my loyalties should lie, I have two countries telling me to do that.


    Russia may or may not be safe from the Raptor, but NOBODY is safe from taxes! pwnd
    Except big global mostly American corporations. Wink

    Not just American.

    You think all the big Russian companies dutifully pay their taxes? I wish I wish ;(

    GarryB
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:02 am

    We already talked about this in the pantcir thread. Russia has bit over 50% radar coverage in high-altitude and 30% in low altitude. That why low level penetration bombers were made in USA long ago.

    For the purposes of the cold war there was no point in achieving 100% coverage... just as western radar defences focused on Soviet bombers and missiles coming over the north pole yet repeatedly were penetrated by small aircraft from the south carrying drugs.

    US bombers had to revert to low level penetration because their chances of successfully penetrating at high altitude became so close to zero it wasn't realistic to even consider.


    But you also have to take new technology -stealth into account. That slashes detection ranges to 1/2 ,1/3rd to non-stealth aircraft.

    New stealth technology means nothing till it is in service. The F-22 lacks the range to be a threat over Russian air space for any period of time. The US wont even upgrade the second lot of F-22s with high off boresight missiles let alone new stealth features.

    So for stealth F-22 ,F-35 ,or reduced RCS B-1, actual coverage is more in 25-15% high and 15-10% low.

    Congrats... naming two aircraft that will never enter Russian air space except to get to an airshow and one plane that does not exist... or did you mean the B-1B which is not actually stealthy at all.

    But add to that kinematic performance of F-22 which reduces missile engagement envelope and realistically F-22 is free to roam about 90% of Russia ,which means that the general answer is -NO.

    Talking of kinematic performance the Mach 1.4 F-22 would be at a serious disadvantage to the Mig-31BM at Mach 2.4... now armed with R-37M missiles.

    Russia is not safe from F-22 ,no matter what chest-thumbing generals say or politicians claim. so be afraid ,be very affraid.

    The Amusing thing is that Russian air defences are generations ahead of anything in the west, which can be described as fragmented and almost nonexistent... what is the US going to do when the PAK FA enters service?

    Patriot was a makeshift answer to a threat the west never considered in Desert Storm... the ballistic missile. The Soviets had already developed missiles to defeat BMs within the ABM treaty limits and would have fared much better. Now after years of developing anti stealth technology again the Russians are in a better position than the west to deal with stealth aircraft at a point when stealth aircraft are going to become a threat to the west...

    There was a question of restarting MIG-31 production so im sure there expert panel knows much more then you, so ill take their information. But im sure some of pak-fa versions will take over mig-31 role.

    Can I add this to this:

    So, congratulations, based on the currently available picture of Russian EW asset deployment, an F-22A can conceivably get into some places in Russia without anyone knowing about it. And do absolutely nothing of significance when it gets there, in part proving that yes, the Russians knew what the hell they were doing when they set up their IADS.

    And conclude the logic is that the Russian politicians want to resume production of Mig-31s so there will be witnesses to F-22 pilots being suffocated by their aircraft in the middle of no where to explain the burnt spots on the ground to the only people within 1,000km of the area... people in airliners flying from west to east and back.

    BTW it would make no sense to use a variant of PAK FA as a Mig-31 replacement... an interceptor of bombers and cruise missiles has no requirement for stealth... there will be no enemy fighters to deal with... they will all be trying to shoot down incoming Russian cruise missiles heading for the US.

    excuse me? This has nothing to do with being Pro or Anti. Even the pentagon admitted that F22 had problems evading radar.

    Exactly. If it had anything to do with being anti US then SOC would not be arguing with you. F-22s trying to fly over Russian air space without permission is not a good idea for Russia or the US even if they could they don't.

    Only a fool would revel in the violation of anothers borders, but then of course might is right and the rich can do as they wish... that is the lesson the US broadcasts to the world, while spouting the opposite from its propaganda machine... the world is safer with murderous armed drones flying overhead attack "suspects" and killing them like there is no doubt about their crimes. Anyone killed in the crossfire is collateral damage... a necessary evil to ensure the absolute security of the US.


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    Rpg type 7v
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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    1.For the purposes of the cold war there was no point in achieving 100% coverage...


    2.Talking of kinematic performance the Mach 1.4 F-22 would be at a serious disadvantage to the Mig-31BM at Mach 2.4... now armed with R-37M missiles.
    1.Ok then why are they pushing for 100% high altitude coverage by 2020?
    You see, your justifications just get more and more ridiculous .
    And the B-2, what you gonna do about that ?
    The Russia is improving for sure ,but USA will take the lead again with NGB (next generation bomber ) who will be even more stealth in high and especially low frequency (meter waves), it will have full spectrum broadband stealth for dominance.
    There is no reason for now but if and when russia finally develops stealth bomber im sure conus AD will get a push to be recreated.

    2.Ok MIG-31 is part of AD so its the topic and lets see the MIG-31 would still need to get close to get a lock on F-22 and r-37 AR seeker will have problems to lock onto F-22 who is supercruising at mach 1.7 ,so the difference mig-31 vs f-22 is mach 0,65 , not much ,and F-22 outmanuvers r-37 easy, because r-37 cant pull many Gs. So every link in the kill chain has to work to destroy F-22 ,and the chain in this case is very weak.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  medo on Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:45 pm

    Patriot was a makeshift answer to a threat the west never considered in Desert Storm... the ballistic missile. The Soviets had already developed missiles to defeat BMs within the ABM treaty limits and would have fared much better. Now after years of developing anti stealth technology again the Russians are in a better position than the west to deal with stealth aircraft at a point when stealth aircraft are going to become a threat to the west...

    He he, SAM-3 is battle proven anti-stealth system. Very Happy

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  macedonian on Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:51 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Russian Patriot wrote:
    I am sorry but do not underestimate other countries. Russia more than capable of denying F--22 access to its borders.
    I know ,this is pro-russian forum , some sacred cows are not to be disturbed silent
    But question yourself, to whom do you pay taxes?-that IS your country.

    Go to a pro-American one, and see people get banned for two weeks for posting about serious F-35 and Raptor shortcomings. Mostly Americans too, and mostly quoting serious sources, not like your trolling here... lol!

    Oh, vis-a-vis the Raptor being capable of penetrating Russia's AD not detected, I'm sure you'd love that to be true, but that sh-t just ain't the truth Ringo...but hey if it makes you feel better, you can believe that...

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:06 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    1.For the purposes of the cold war there was no point in achieving 100% coverage...


    2.Talking of kinematic performance the Mach 1.4 F-22 would be at a serious disadvantage to the Mig-31BM at Mach 2.4... now armed with R-37M missiles.
    1.Ok then why are they pushing for 100% high altitude coverage by 2020?
    You see, your justifications just get more and more ridiculous .
    And the B-2, what you gonna do about that ?
    The Russia is improving for sure ,but USA will take the lead again with NGB (next generation bomber ) who will be even more stealth in high and especially low frequency (meter waves), it will have full spectrum broadband stealth for dominance.
    There is no reason for now but if and when russia finally develops stealth bomber im sure conus AD will get a push to be recreated.



    2.Ok MIG-31 is part of AD so its the topic and lets see the MIG-31 would still need to get close to get a lock on F-22 and r-37 AR seeker will have problems to lock onto F-22 who is supercruising at mach 1.7 ,so the difference mig-31 vs f-22 is mach 0,65 , not much ,and F-22 outmanuvers r-37 easy, because r-37 cant pull many Gs. So every link in the kill chain has to work to destroy F-22 ,and the chain in this case is very weak.




    um hate to say but the B2 : http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/b2.htm is currently put on hold to sequestration cuts


    and here are more details on cuts: http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1595552-Latest-AF-Guidance-on-the-Sequester&highlight=Sequestration


    ah proven wrong : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-2_Spirit
    On 28 March 2013, two B-2s flew a round trip of 13,000 miles (20,800 km) from Whiteman Air Force base in Missouri to South Korea, dropping dummy ordnance on the Jik Do target range. The mission, part of the annual South Korean–United States military exercises, was the first time that B-2s overflew the Korean peninsula. Tensions between North and South Korea were exacerbated by the exercise, North Korea protested against the exercises and made threats of nuclear attacks upon South Korea and the United States

    but here is the stealth:
    The B-2's low-observable, or "stealth", characteristics enable the undetected penetration of sophisticated anti-aircraft defenses and to attack even heavily defended targets. This stealth comes from a combination of reduced acoustic, infrared, visual and radar signatures to evade the various detection systems that could be used to detect and be used to direct attacks against an aircraft. The majority of the B-2 is made out of a carbon-graphite composite material that is stronger than steel and lighter than aluminium; perhaps most crucially, it also absorbs a significant amount of radar energy.[59] Reportedly, the B-2 Spirit has a radar signature of about 0.1 m2.[84]
    The B-2's engines are buried within its wing to conceal the engines' fans and minimize their exhaust signature
    In contrast to the flat surfaces of the earlier F-117 Nighthawk, the B-2 is composed of many curved and rounded surfaces across its exposed airframe to deflect radar beams. Additional reduction in its radar signature was achieved by the use of various radar-absorbent materials (RAM) to absorb and neutralize radar beams. The B-2's clean, low-drag flying wing configuration not only gives it exceptional range but is also beneficial to reducing its radar profile.[56][85]
    Another design feature is the placement of the engines, which are buried within the wing to conceal the engines' fans and minimize thermal visibility of the exhaust.[66][86] The original design had tanks for a contrail-inhibiting chemical, but this was replaced in production aircraft by a contrail sensor that alerts the crew when they should change altitude.[87] To reduce optical visibility during daylight operations, the B-2 is painted in an anti-reflective paint.[66]
    Innovations such as alternate high-frequency material (AHFM) and automated material application methods were also incorporated into the aircraft to enhance its radar-absorbent properties and lower maintenance requirements.[66][88] In early 2004, Northrop Grumman began applying a newly-developed AHFM to operational B-2s.[89] In order to protect the operational integrity of its sophisticated radar absorbent material and coatings, each B-2 is kept inside a climate-controlled hangar large enough to accommodate its 172-foot (52 m) wingspan

    But that still does not mean radar cannot detect it...


    Now on topic : F-22 problems :http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/10/f-22-raptor-pilots-make-problems-public/

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:29 am

    1.Ok then why are they pushing for 100% high altitude coverage by 2020?

    During the cold war 100% coverage would have been an expensive luxury because the ABM treaty pretty much limited long range radar to the borders of a country or near the one ABM site each country was allowed (SU and US).

    Now that the ABM treaty is gone Russia can build very large radar that covers its own airspace which of course is a much more efficient way of monitoring large areas of air space without breaking the bank.

    And the B-2, what you gonna do about that ?

    What is so special about the B-2?

    It will be detected by the long range over the horizon radar and shot down when it approaches Russian air space by Mig-31s.

    The Russia is improving for sure ,but USA will take the lead again with NGB (next generation bomber ) who will be even more stealth in high and especially low frequency (meter waves), it will have full spectrum broadband stealth for dominance.

    It will cost 20 billion a plane and they will make 5 of them... that is what they are good at...

    2.Ok MIG-31 is part of AD so its the topic and lets see the MIG-31 would still need to get close to get a lock on F-22 and r-37 AR seeker will have problems to lock onto F-22 who is supercruising at mach 1.7 ,so the difference mig-31 vs f-22 is mach 0,65 , not much ,and F-22 outmanuvers r-37 easy, because r-37 cant pull many Gs. So every link in the kill chain has to work to destroy F-22 ,and the chain in this case is very weak.

    No... actually what will happen is that the Mig-31 will shoot down all the USAF tanker aircraft flying over the north pole from 300km range and can the turn around and go home safe in the knowledge that the F-22s wont have enough fuel to get to Russia or Canada... that is if the oxygen system hasn't already suffocated the pilots sooner.



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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:59 am

    GarryB wrote:
    No... actually what will happen is that the Mig-31 will shoot down all the USAF tanker aircraft flying over the north pole from 300km range and can the turn around and go home safe in the knowledge that the F-22s wont have enough fuel to get to Russia or Canada... that is if the oxygen system hasn't already suffocated the pilots sooner.


    Best post of the thread.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:44 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:Now on topic : F-22 problems :http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/10/f-22-raptor-pilots-make-problems-public/

    And that's not where it ends .

    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/115543547/F22-analysis

    This analysis clearly shows that the F 22 will fail to deliver at crucial junctures.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:23 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    No... actually what will happen is that the Mig-31 will shoot down all the USAF tanker aircraft flying over the north pole from 300km range and can the turn around and go home safe in the knowledge that the F-22s wont have enough fuel to get to Russia or Canada... that is if the oxygen system hasn't already suffocated the pilots sooner.


    Best post of the thread.
    actually the dumbest respekt
    because you see the Mig-31 will light up on radar like a beacon in midnight, thanks to its huge RCS , and F-22 pilot will not read the newspaper in the cocpit while its supports are decimated ,but tell the tankers to turn and use stealth and LPI AESA to creep up on mig-31 and blast it from the sky without its pilot knowing what the hell happened (if they eject in time).
    Then the tankers will again turn around for attack and F-22 will complete its mission only this time adding expensive Russias AD Interceptors to its list of destroyed targets Cool ...

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:27 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Russian Patriot wrote:
    I am sorry but do not underestimate other countries. Russia more than capable of denying F--22 access to its borders.
    I know ,this is pro-russian forum , some sacred cows are not to be disturbed silent
    But question yourself, to whom do you pay taxes?-that IS your country.

    Go to a pro-American one, and see people get banned for two weeks for posting about serious F-35 and Raptor shortcomings. Mostly Americans too, and mostly quoting serious sources, not like your trolling here... lol!

    Oh, vis-a-vis the Raptor being capable of penetrating Russia's AD not detected, I'm sure you'd love that to be true, but that sh-t just ain't the truth Ringo...but hey if it makes you feel better, you can believe that...
    Actually you dont have to belive me or think im sucking up , im not interested in that at all, but i do value this forum allot. Me like it here.
    Its much more wider in a sense,and open for discussion ,yes there are idiots here like everywhere, but i think this is on a good path and moderation is very solid.
    So credit's given where credits due.
    May the best forum win. Very Happy

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:07 pm

    F-22 or any other stealth plane have no chance vs advanced modern radars that see through stealth.
    Even the Su-35 will have no problem to detect it at over 100km range according to Sukhoi engineers data. Using its advanced thermal sensors or its Ibis-E radars. S-400 will detect it even easier at ranges far beyond the F-22 weapons and radar range.Just like F-117 was ,Stealth technology is greatly overrated.. It is good to always have it ,but will become from zero to very little advantage over heavily defended territories with modern S-300s and 4th ++ Generations combat planes using AESA radars and next generation thermal optics.F-22 used stealth technology is a technology developed in the mid 80's near 2 decades old since its design was finalized and much more modern and sensitive radars have been developed since then , today. F-22 Looks like a repetition of the F-117 undetectable myth all over again. Until was shot down with old soviet defense system.

    The question of how far F-22 can be tracked with RUssia defense systems is about the same to ask about how far Russian bombers can fly in the air. As much as they want it. Russia Biggest early radar systems ,Voronezh radars ,are huge buildings that are designed to track all europe airspace and any ballistic missile ,civilian or military plane from russia territory with an accuracy of couple of meters. The radar range is 6,000km. Lets see what Sources from Russia Defense ministry have said about their Voronezh Radar station.


    “Every civilian or military object, be it airborne or on the ground, uses various systems emitting radio waves. It could be radar stations, communication systems, navigation GPS and GLONASS complexes, radio altimeters etc. Aircrafts have thermal and other sorts of wave emissions. The principles of physics cannot be escaped, even by American stealth B2 and F22 military aircraft. The task of MIIS is to spot such emissions, get exact coordinates and track the movement,”

    “Because the MIIS only monitors the space, it does not emit waves itself, therefore the enemy won’t know it has been spotted,”


    http://rt.com/news/russia-new-surveillance-system-974/

    You can see a map here in wiki of Russia massive defense systems Voronezh
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voronezh_radar

    Nearly all Russia save from any 5th /6th generation 'Stealth' planes unless they fly over the north pole where Russia don't have modern radars or the uninhabited russian islands that are close to alaska. Something to notice is that If the F-22 (or also B-2) was so good it will have never been canceled for being 'too expensive', since having air superiority to fly undetected on any enemy territory have no price. They could have done a lot of things to keep price lower like selling it to super allies , like buying less submarines or warships that already they have too many.Virginia class submarines for example cost a billion each and they still continue developing them ,even though they only useful as a deterrence force. Aircraft carriers which are infinitively more expensive US developing 3 more, US give away for free more than 10 billion each year in foreign aid. So the cancellation of the F-22 for money issues makes no sense.F-22 have some issues that could have been fixed but still was canceled its production. Reality was Pentagon found it makes no sense to make more stealth planes if they don't offer a significant advantage over mas produced modern combat planes of the competition in the market.

    http://youtu.be/ITbGBmaqQkk

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  SOC on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:32 pm

    Vann7 wrote:F-22 or any other stealth plane have no chance vs advanced modern radars that see through stealth.

    Depends on what you're optimized for. The F-117 and F-22 were/are optimized for FCS-band wavelengths, as in radar wavelengths associated with things like fighters or SAMs that would try and shoot them down. Digital VHF-band EW radars like the 55Zh6 remain a detection threat, but when the F-117 was designed they (VHF-band radars) were either 1) ridiculously inaccurate in range and/or bearing, or 2) not possessing enough processing power to be a significant problem. The B-2 is different, it's large enough to incorporate VHF-band LO characteristics. Anything the size of a fighter jet cannot incorporate too much in the way of counter-VHF LO because of the physics of size involved.

    Vann7 wrote:F-22 used stealth technology is a technology developed in the mid 80's near 2 decades old since its design was finalized and much more modern and sensitive radars have been developed since then , today.

    It's still all basic physics. You could build a faceted airframe right now and get the same level of LO that the F-117 had.

    Vann7 wrote:F-22 Looks like a repetition of the F-117 undetectable myth all over again. Until was shot down with old soviet defense system.

    Nobody intelligent would ever argue that stealth makes something totally undetectable. The point is to reduce detection range to a militarily useful range. Against shorter wavelengths it appears to have worked out just fine. Hundreds of combat sorties by the F-117 and B-2, and only one F-117 has been lost. But again, that's only against radar sensors. IR and other passive locators are another argument entirely.

    Vann7 wrote:If the F-22 (or also B-2) was so good it will have never been canceled for being 'too expensive', since having air superiority to fly undetected on any enemy territory have no price. They could have done a lot of things to keep price lower like selling it to super allies , like buying less submarines or warships that already they have too many.

    It's called a defense budget. The military has X amount to spend, so they end up having to prioritize. Plus, when the Cold War ended, politicians in Congress no longer saw the justification for a hundred B-2s, designed to wage war against an enemy that no longer existed. Congress or the SecDef can cancel military programs regardless of their true military utility, it happens all the time.

    Vann7 wrote:Virginia class submarines for example cost a billion each and they still continue developing them ,even though they only useful as a deterrence force. Aircraft carriers which are infinitively more expensive US developing 3 more, US give away for free more than 10 billion each year in foreign aid.


    Carriers are used for power projection, an important facet of US foreign policy. The new decks will be replacing old carriers built decades ago so it's not like the US is trying to double its carrier fleet. Also, the Virginia class are SSNs, not deterrence platforms. And I'm all for stopping foreign aid.

    Vann7 wrote:So the cancellation of the F-22 for money issues makes no sense.F-22 have some issues that could have been fixed but still was canceled its production. Reality was Pentagon found it makes no sense to make more stealth planes if they don't offer a significant advantage over mas produced modern combat planes of the competition in the market.

    If stealth makes no sense anymore explain the "mass produced" F-35. Or the PAK-FA, for that matter.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:06 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    No... actually what will happen is that the Mig-31 will shoot down all the USAF tanker aircraft flying over the north pole from 300km range and can the turn around and go home safe in the knowledge that the F-22s wont have enough fuel to get to Russia or Canada... that is if the oxygen system hasn't already suffocated the pilots sooner.


    Best post of the thread.
    actually the dumbest respekt
    because you see the Mig-31 will light up on radar like a beacon in midnight, thanks to its huge RCS , and F-22 pilot will not read the newspaper in the cocpit while its supports are decimated ,but tell the tankers to turn and use stealth and LPI AESA to creep up on mig-31 and blast it from the sky without its pilot knowing what the hell happened (if they eject in time).
    Then the tankers will again turn around for attack and F-22 will complete its mission only this time adding expensive Russias AD Interceptors to its list of destroyed targets Cool ...

    lol, magical LPI, Tankers appearing out of thin air, did Tom Clansy invent this scenario?

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:15 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    If stealth makes no sense anymore explain the "mass produced" F-35. Or the PAK-FA, for that matter.


    Because the feature have been advertised for decades like the next best thing since planes were invented.
    Stealth was revolutionary in the early 90's and 2000s ,when radars were behind the technology. Btw. Stealth Planes physics was first discovered by Soviets Scientist.. and without them US will have never been able to have stealth planes flying today. he also invented a way to defeat stealth planes with more dynamic radars and triangulation.. you can see movie here.

    http://youtu.be/lq-xlLcL_1k

    US officials clearly say there Peter Ufimtsev discoveries became the core of all American stealth planes up to today modern jets. he is called the father of stealth for nothing. He gave lectures to americans and europeans what they need to know to evade radar. In other words ,the technology is not something new for Russians they fully understand it ,everything you need to know about it. with this is mind .. it will be unrealistic to claim that Americans can fly an F22 anywhere close to Russia territories without being detected. Russia takes seriously their air defense ,and modern radars today can detect not only 'stealth' planes, but birds ,clouds ,snow and water in the air. Take for example IRAN they captured a very modern unmanned stealth spy drone Lockheed Martin- RQ-170 with all the bells and whistles one that was supposed to be undetectable . So the idea that you can hide an F-22 in the air from Russian state of the art air defenses is unrealistic. As i said stealth have its advantages in open air vs other planes ,specially if they are not modern ones. But against Modern combat jets like SU-35/Mig-35/SU-34 with anti-stealth X band radars ,L band radars and advanced IR optics ,F-22 advantages will be significantly reduced since according to Sukhoi engineers data ,Irbis-E radar can detect F-22 from 90km/120km++ using thermal optics/X band . And using L band the F22 cannot hide at all. So technology of radars today is much more stronger that it was when F-22 stealth was finalized in the mid 80's. Why they still make stealth planes? Because 90-95% of the combat jets in the world inventory today still are past generation and not well prepared to deal with low observable signature planes. also because even if the advantage is small..still is an advantage .better to have it that to not.but also because the feature Stealth have been advertised beyond reality and it is really good selling point vs any country looking to buy. So yes stealth is good technology today ,but in the future it will become less and less useful as soon everyone start modernizing all their airforces and air defenses to the latest ones.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:19 am

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    No... actually what will happen is that the Mig-31 will shoot down all the USAF tanker aircraft flying over the north pole from 300km range and can the turn around and go home safe in the knowledge that the F-22s wont have enough fuel to get to Russia or Canada... that is if the oxygen system hasn't already suffocated the pilots sooner.


    Best post of the thread.
    actually the dumbest respekt
    because you see the Mig-31 will light up on radar like a beacon in midnight, thanks to its huge RCS , and F-22 pilot will not read the newspaper in the cocpit while its supports are decimated ,but tell the tankers to turn and use stealth and LPI AESA to creep up on mig-31 and blast it from the sky without its pilot knowing what the hell happened (if they eject in time).
    Then the tankers will again turn around for attack and F-22 will complete its mission only this time adding expensive Russias AD Interceptors to its list of destroyed targets Cool ...

    That isn't how it works.

    Tankers would be seen much further away, which would be prime target. That goes for AWACS that would support the F-22's. Second of all, VHF and UHF radar would have picked up the planes from quite afar anyway, so they would be aware of its location before it is within launching distance of any target within Russia. Thirdly, they would be able to dispatch fighters to intercept the planes. F-22 or any other aircraft for that matter isn't completely invisible. It may be under xband radar at a specific range, depending on the power being exerted from the Radar, but it is pretty impossible to not be seen by modern radar. There is that fact, as well as other passive equipment picking up sensors, which BTW, regardless of LPI mode or not, it is still leaking radiation of some sort (its GPS signal, comm signal, etc). Then take into account the missiles being fired have limited range. Even if the MiG-31BM could not pick up F-22 at a decent range, it will pick up the tankers from 300+ KM, which would be able to strike at about 200+km if using R-37. So it would give the Russian jets first strike against an important asset such as the tankers and AWACS.

    Don't even bother getting started with me regarding Radar. I have a family member really close to me that worked on American Radar since the 80's.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:12 am

    actually the dumbest respekt
    because you see the Mig-31 will light up on radar like a beacon in midnight, thanks to its huge RCS , and F-22 pilot will not read the newspaper in the cocpit while its supports are decimated ,but tell the tankers to turn

    And that radio call will tell the Foxhounds where the F-22s are... along with OTH radar from ground stations of course and flying at mach 2.4 the Mig-31s wont get within AMRAAM range of the F-22s to begin with...

    [quote]and use stealth and LPI AESA to creep up on mig-31 and blast it from the sky without its pilot knowing what the hell happened (if they eject in time).[quote]

    If they are creeping, then they are subsonic and will not be able to creep up on any Mig-31 flying at Mach 2.4.


    Then the tankers will again turn around for attack and F-22 will complete its mission only this time adding expensive Russias AD Interceptors to its list of destroyed targets Cool ...

    Those tankers can turn all they like they wont escape those R-37Ms and will be enormous balls of fire within minutes and the Migs that launched on them will head back to base to reload while the radar silent Migs that didn't open fire or operate their radars will be triangulating the radar signals from the F-22s scanning for the Migs that launched on their tankers and also listening to F-22 pilots talking to tankers to locate them with the IRSTs at high altitude supercruising at mach 1.5.

    Even if the MiG-31BM could not pick up F-22 at a decent range, it will pick up the tankers from 300+ KM, which would be able to strike at about 200+km if using R-37. So it would give the Russian jets first strike against an important asset such as the tankers and AWACS.

    The Mig-31BM would not pick up the F-22 because all of the F-22s would be frantically deploying around North American and Canadian air space trying to spot and shoot down cruise missiles and bombers... the same as the Mig-31 will be flying around shooting down bombers and cruise missiles over Russia.

    The difference is that the Raptor only carries 6 missiles, while the Mig-31BM can carry at least 8 and possibly more.


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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:46 am

    GarryB wrote:

    The difference is that the Raptor only carries 6 missiles, while the Mig-31BM can carry at least 8 and possibly more.
    really? Laughing
    plz provide some evidence ,picture or smthing dunno ,that current operational mig-31bm carrys 8 R-37m missiles? ,or any other combination of missiles anyway if its easier for you... clown

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:24 pm

    I don't doubt MiG-31 or the BM series, but I think its roll would suite better with dealing with shooting down cruise missiles and support vehicles (AWACS, Tankers, Bombers), while fighterborn aircraft like Su-27/30/35 would be dealing with the F-22's. If the war would be in Russia, Russia would have the advantage of long range radar coverage, as well as passive sensors, to assist the Su-27's in combating the F-22's as the Su-27's radar would not be up to par with dealing with the F-22 (this is where the IRST system would come in handy, but that is close up range). The other thing is modern ECM/EW equipment that would be needed to try and screw with the enemies electronic systems. Russia learned the mistakes that other countries had in dealing with the Americans: provide low altitude to high altitude air coverage (unlike Iraq where they had high altitude coverage but not low altitude, thus helicopters could take out SAM's at a safe distance), as well as multiple tracking systems (Optics, Passive, Radar, etc). They may not cover every area, but they will cover the areas that are more likely to have something like F-22 fly over, because I don't think it can handle the cold weathers up north from last time I read.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:34 pm

    50% of russia doesnt have high altitude coverage and you can roam around it in ANY kind of aircraft (stealth or non-stealth) and that is the sad truth my friend...
    Thats why hundreads of ,Tu-128, Mig-25 were built , why MIG-31 still today exists, etc. and it has to turn on its radar to scan for posible enemies. F-22 will detect radiation ,use Aesa LPI to pinpoint its location ,it will then using supercruise creep up on mig-31 who is chasing Tankers because its the only thing it can see ,not the stealth F-22, and finish it.
    Let be realistic -there is a reason one of Russias first Aesa radars ,they finally developed, for PVO , is a low frequency! search radar!


    Last edited by Rpg type 7v on Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:36 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:50% of russia doesnt have high altitude coverage and you can roam around it in ANY kind of aircraft (stelth or non-stelth) and that is the sad truth my friend...
    Thats why hundreads of ,Tu-128, Mig-25 were built , why MIG-31 still today exists, etc. and it has to turn on its radar to scan for posible enemies. F-22 will detect radiation ,use Aesa LPI to pinpoint its location ,it will then using supercruise creep up on mig-31 who is chasing Tankers because its the only thing it can see ,not the stealth F-22, and finish it.
    Let be realistic -there is a reason one of Russias first Aesa radars ,they finally developed, for PVO , is a low frequency! search radar!

    Due you have a fricking link? I asked you so many times. If not, I wish you were banned for the bullshit.

    Please, provide a link.

    Second of all, those Tankers would not need to be chased like you claim, they would be shot down far away. Farther away than F-22 can reach the MiG-31.

    I seriously doubt your knowledge.

    since you are a failed troll, here you go:

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?175769-Defending-Mother-Russia&p=4812353&viewfull=1#post4812353

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:45 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:50% of russia doesnt have high altitude coverage and you can roam around it in ANY kind of aircraft (stelth or non-stelth) and that is the sad truth my friend...
    Thats why hundreads of ,Tu-128, Mig-25 were built , why MIG-31 still today exists, etc. and it has to turn on its radar to scan for posible enemies. F-22 will detect radiation ,use Aesa LPI to pinpoint its location ,it will then using supercruise creep up on mig-31 who is chasing Tankers because its the only thing it can see ,not the stealth F-22, and finish it.
    Let be realistic -there is a reason one of Russias first Aesa radars ,they finally developed, for PVO , is a low frequency! search radar!

    Due you have a fricking link? I asked you so many times. If not, I wish you were banned for the bullshit.

    Please, provide a link.

    Second of all, those Tankers would not need to be chased like you claim, they would be shot down far away. Farther away than F-22 can reach the MiG-31.

    I seriously doubt your knowledge.
    R-37 will have 50% range or less against a chasing target thats basic balistics. Rolling Eyes
    While MiG-31 will get into a no escape zone for amraam much sooner because there is a F-22 inbetween going at it.
    What?
    No problem.
    Belive it or not i posted the link in this same topic Shocked - Post n°421 .
    Instead of giving negative votes, first read, and try to understand. Arrow
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