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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:34 pm

    Wait i thought the F-22 cant use AG weapons effectively and is purely an air to air fighter so this discussion about F-22 bombing russia is invalid I suppose?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:05 pm

    It has SDB capability doesn't it?
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    Post  medo on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:40 am

    F-22 could carry SDBs. But to be stealth it have to carry them in weapon bays. So when it have SDBs, it could not have AAMs, or have half bays for AAMs and half for SDBs and this is reduction in numbers. Smaller number of SDBs means that protecting SHORADs could easier deal with treat and S-400 or BUK could easier engage F-22 in longer distance. Smaller number of AAMs means it could not be too long in enemy air space. If it have only two AMRAAMs, other are SDBs, it is very important that both missiles hit the target. If they miss, F-22 is than easy target for Flankers.
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    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:34 pm

    medo wrote: F-22 is than easy target for Flankers.

    SDB are gliding bombs and as such are easy targets for Russian airdefense.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:26 am

    It is like discussions about US carrier groups... on the one hand they never emit any signal and are impossible to locate, and on the other they can detect any and all threats and engage them at maximum range.

    By the same magic the F-22 and F-35 can see all and kill all at maximum range.

    Of course Pantsir-S1 and TOR systems have been designed specifically to engage air launched weapons aimed at SAM sites and it is assumed that with NEBO-M that F-22s will no longer be invisible elusive super planes they once were.

    Against Iran or Libya the F-22 is a serious threat... but then so is the F-15E... the F-15E is much better armed and much much cheaper to buy and operate.
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    Post  Vann7 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:27 pm

    victor7 wrote:Hello All and Greetings,

    I am new to this site and forum. It seems it is a fairly intense site for military matters and weapons discussions (my new hobby btw).

    The question that I have and more so given my limited knowledge is:

    Is Russia safe from F22 Raptor? I have heard that S-400 can detect and track F22 but only from 50Kms or so. This means F22 can sneak into the territory and launch its missiles with ranges of 120km or drop its JDAM type bombs on various sites and get away. Currently S-400s are only deployed around Moscow, does that mean F22 can have a free ride in the rest of RF or S-300 can also detect and track it.

    Also, it was quite a scare to know that a squadron of F22s can destroy a major chunk of other airforces. I mean 145 to 0 kill ratios vrs F15s and F16s types in USAF simulation.

    What is happening around? Some sort of Technology leap? Is that why US has become so belligerent recently in middle east and area.

    Cheers!

    Victor

    Old discussion ..but anyway.
    I don't think F22 or B1 will have any chance to get anywhere close Russia territories without being detected. will not be able to hide from modern S-300PMU2 or S-400s using ultra sensitive three dimensional radars. Even in the case that the F-22 was as 'stealth' for radars as fans on fotums claim..ie ~60km detection in S-400. You forget about the networking capabilities of the system. So using the best hoped claims.. if you have 10 S-400s radars in network ,you will be able to cover an area of 10x 60km = 600km range. Monitoring planes and warships also share information..so pretty much it will be no problem to detect an F-22 as far as you want it.. 3,000km ,5,000km away of Russian borders if you have the planes or warships positioned in the right place. F-22 will have a better chance to at least try an S-400/s-300 system defense in a third world country without modern airforce or navy. still you will have the issue of triangulation of radars which increase significantly the detection of low observable planes. Another issue F-22 will need to face is close range artillery like pantsyrs. this are even more deadly since you cannot evade artillery attack. Any F22 trying to enter heavily defended territory will need help from AWACS to know where to fly avoiding radars or close range artillery.to face first layers of close range defense first..with optical heat sensors that will spot the F-22 without problems at 30km. so in order to defeat an S-300/400 you need to first counter very deadly close range defenses..that could operate even if the radar see nothing. The most ideal place for an F-22 to fight is away of any territory with heavy system defenses , because its stealth advantages are more effective against planes in open airspace. i think against S-300s/400 is much more lethal to use cruise missiles with 1,000km range in the many hundreds to overwhelm a system defens.specially if they all fired nearly at the same time through many warships and submarines. In practice in areal war..lets say against IRAN with S-300/S-400s. Any use of F-22 will only come ,after NATO have defeated their S-300s with cruise missiles. The believe that you can sneak undetected very deep inside of any enemy territory with decent air defenses with a first strike in an F-22 is fantasy at best.It will be shot down easily by any Pantsysr system ,that do not need radio signals to shot down an F22 since its Optic IR sensors that for sure have ,will lock the F-22.

    promo movie done by the same company that makes s-300s/S-400s claim they defeat next gen Unmanned bombers not yet in service by USAF.

    https://youtu.be/1GcAUaLrPNU
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    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:06 am

    Now on topic : F-22 problems :http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/10/f-22-raptor-pilots-make-problems-public/
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    Post  Sujoy on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:44 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:Now on topic : F-22 problems :http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/10/f-22-raptor-pilots-make-problems-public/

    And that's not where it ends .

    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/115543547/F22-analysis

    This analysis clearly shows that the F 22 will fail to deliver at crucial junctures.
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    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:07 pm

    F-22 or any other stealth plane have no chance vs advanced modern radars that see through stealth.
    Even the Su-35 will have no problem to detect it at over 100km range according to Sukhoi engineers data. Using its advanced thermal sensors or its Ibis-E radars. S-400 will detect it even easier at ranges far beyond the F-22 weapons and radar range.Just like F-117 was ,Stealth technology is greatly overrated.. It is good to always have it ,but will become from zero to very little advantage over heavily defended territories with modern S-300s and 4th ++ Generations combat planes using AESA radars and next generation thermal optics.F-22 used stealth technology is a technology developed in the mid 80's near 2 decades old since its design was finalized and much more modern and sensitive radars have been developed since then , today. F-22 Looks like a repetition of the F-117 undetectable myth all over again. Until was shot down with old soviet defense system.

    The question of how far F-22 can be tracked with RUssia defense systems is about the same to ask about how far Russian bombers can fly in the air. As much as they want it. Russia Biggest early radar systems ,Voronezh radars ,are huge buildings that are designed to track all europe airspace and any ballistic missile ,civilian or military plane from russia territory with an accuracy of couple of meters. The radar range is 6,000km. Lets see what Sources from Russia Defense ministry have said about their Voronezh Radar station.


    “Every civilian or military object, be it airborne or on the ground, uses various systems emitting radio waves. It could be radar stations, communication systems, navigation GPS and GLONASS complexes, radio altimeters etc. Aircrafts have thermal and other sorts of wave emissions. The principles of physics cannot be escaped, even by American stealth B2 and F22 military aircraft. The task of MIIS is to spot such emissions, get exact coordinates and track the movement,”

    “Because the MIIS only monitors the space, it does not emit waves itself, therefore the enemy won’t know it has been spotted,”


    http://rt.com/news/russia-new-surveillance-system-974/

    You can see a map here in wiki of Russia massive defense systems Voronezh
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voronezh_radar

    Nearly all Russia save from any 5th /6th generation 'Stealth' planes unless they fly over the north pole where Russia don't have modern radars or the uninhabited russian islands that are close to alaska. Something to notice is that If the F-22 (or also B-2) was so good it will have never been canceled for being 'too expensive', since having air superiority to fly undetected on any enemy territory have no price. They could have done a lot of things to keep price lower like selling it to super allies , like buying less submarines or warships that already they have too many.Virginia class submarines for example cost a billion each and they still continue developing them ,even though they only useful as a deterrence force. Aircraft carriers which are infinitively more expensive US developing 3 more, US give away for free more than 10 billion each year in foreign aid. So the cancellation of the F-22 for money issues makes no sense.F-22 have some issues that could have been fixed but still was canceled its production. Reality was Pentagon found it makes no sense to make more stealth planes if they don't offer a significant advantage over mas produced modern combat planes of the competition in the market.

    https://youtu.be/ITbGBmaqQkk
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    Post  Austin on Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:23 pm

    What Kind of Radar are they talking about operating in 10 m wavelength ? Can such radar detect Stealth Aircraft of B-2 types ?

    Defense will create a new network-horizon radar
    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/06/10/rls/
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    Post  medo on Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:29 pm

    Austin wrote:What Kind of Radar are they talking about operating in 10 m wavelength ? Can such radar detect Stealth Aircraft of B-2 types ?

    Defense will create a new network-horizon radar
    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/06/10/rls/

    It's over the horizont radar, which is usually in metric wave (low frequency), that it waves could use ionosphere to follow the Earth curve. And yes, they could easily detect stealth planes, because non have 1 meter thick RAM cover, that is why stealth F-117 and B-2 were easily seen on old Soviet VHF radars.
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    Post  medo on Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:32 pm

    Podsolnuh is smaller OTH radar and as I know, some of them are already operational in Far East and in Black Sea.
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    Post  Austin on Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:39 pm

    medo wrote:It's over the horizont radar, which is usually in metric wave (low frequency), that it waves could use ionosphere to follow the Earth curve. And yes, they could easily detect stealth planes, because non have 1 meter thick RAM cover, that is why stealth F-117 and B-2 were easily seen on old Soviet VHF radars.

    RAM plays a very small role in LO of an aircraft since RAM tends to be band specific and there is a limit to how much thick coating of RAM can be applies to Stealth Aircraft.

    The Key is Shaping , Dr Carlo Kopp once told me that B-2 can defeat any known radar due to its shape even a 30 m wavelength radar cant detect a B-2 and that purely because of its shaping.
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    Post  Rpg type 7v on Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:14 pm

    medo wrote:
    Austin wrote:What Kind of Radar are they talking about operating in 10 m wavelength ? Can such radar detect Stealth Aircraft of B-2 types ?

    Defense will create a new network-horizon radar
    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/06/10/rls/

    It's over the horizont radar, which is usually in metric wave (low frequency), that it waves could use ionosphere to follow the Earth curve. And yes, they could easily detect stealth planes, because non have 1 meter thick RAM cover, that is why stealth F-117 and B-2 were easily seen on old Soviet VHF radars.
    actually the wave bounces back ,it goes the same path twice ,so the thickness can be half the wavelength , eg. 0,5m.
    No they werent and their detection was much reduced- for old Neva was at 25ish kilometers ,it took some time to get a lock and fire 2 missiles ,one missed but second broke the wing and destroyed f-117 just withing missile engagement envelope at 15km distance and 8km height.
    The sam crew wouldnt dare to engage for so long, if the nighthawk had wildweasel supports nearby.


    Last edited by Rpg type 7v on Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Russian Patriot on Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:16 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Austin wrote:What Kind of Radar are they talking about operating in 10 m wavelength ? Can such radar detect Stealth Aircraft of B-2 types ?

    Defense will create a new network-horizon radar
    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/06/10/rls/

    It's over the horizont radar, which is usually in metric wave (low frequency), that it waves could use ionosphere to follow the Earth curve. And yes, they could easily detect stealth planes, because non have 1 meter thick RAM cover, that is why stealth F-117 and B-2 were easily seen on old Soviet VHF radars.
    actually the wave bounces back ,it goes the same path twice ,so the thickness can be half the wavelength , eg. 0,5m.
    No they werent and their detection was much reduced- for old Neva was at 25ish kilometers ,it took some time to get a lock and fire 2 missiles ,one missed but second broke the wing and destroyed f-117 just withing missile engagement envelope at 15km distance and 8km height.

    Link proving this?
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    Post  medo on Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:08 pm

    http://congressionalresearch.com/RL30639/document.php

    This report show, that F-117 in Serbia was lost, because its EA-6B escort was not properly near. Both F-117 and B-2 in 1999 war use EW SEAD escort and Serbia have only ancient SAM-2, SAM-3 and SAM-6. Newer radars created with stealth in mind could even easier see stealth planes and with much better ECCM capabilities track and shoot on stealth planes.
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    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:18 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:

    Your link explain how RADAR work for detecting NEARBY asteroid !!

    Its the same process for everything. Planets ,stars ,comets,planes.What changes is the configuration of radars and way of doing it. You need First to know the position of your target by sending a signal and measuring the time it takes to bounce back. Radio telescope designed to concentrate its focus in a particular place in galaxy while Military Radars designed to cover wider areas at the same time in country airspace. When radars pointing upwards they can observe Stars ,when pointing downwards they can be used to observe weather.When Pointing horizontally they can observe air traffic inside and outside their airspace.
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    Post  Hachimoto on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:35 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    Hachimoto wrote:

    Your link explain how RADAR work for detecting NEARBY asteroid !!

    Its the same process for everything. Planets ,stars ,comets,planes.What changes is the configuration of radars and way of doing it. You need First to know the position of your target by sending a signal and measuring the time it takes to bounce back. Radio telescope designed to concentrate its focus in a particular place in galaxy while Military Radars designed to cover wider areas at the same time in country airspace. When radars pointing upwards they can observe Stars ,when pointing downwards they can be used to observe weather.When Pointing horizontally they can observe air traffic inside and outside their airspace.

    Oh no i will not make a out of topic here but that way your 'signal' will return to eart ... let say not in short time hein Laughing

    beside we don't have today and in any near future the capacity to reach those distances without signal disperation
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:26 pm

    The Key is Shaping , Dr Carlo Kopp once told me that B-2 can defeat any known radar due to its shape even a 30 m wavelength radar cant detect a B-2 and that purely because of its shaping.

    Longer wave radar does not detect or reveal the shape of the object, so shaping would have no effect on the return... the entire aircraft would resonate a return in every direction.

    I'd like to see someone try some sort of optical seeker. Try hiding from that!

    I rather suspect that the R-77 family might include dual seekers as a successor to the R-27 family of seeker types.

    We have already seen a dual radar seeker with ARH and ARM seeker design allowing the close range homing onto an active radar signal or the long range passive detection and homing.

    This would be ideal for an anti AWACS missile that can home in in the terminal phase using active radar homing if the threat turns its radar off.

    Newer radars created with stealth in mind could even easier see stealth planes and with much better ECCM capabilities track and shoot on stealth planes.

    Even just fitting optical backup guidance could make an old system much more effective in the anti stealth role.

    The newer systems tend to have more guidance channels so waves of cruise missiles will not so easily overwhelm them.
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    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:37 pm

    Garry this is what Dr Carlo Kopp told me in an email conversation

    Read Rebecca Grant's Radar Game, many copies in PDF across the web. B-2 can beat any known radar, and likely be hard to see even with a 10 metre HF band radar.

    This is a strange claim I wonder where you got it from: "But there is this notion that below 2Ghz nothing is invisible , so is it possible that meter wave radar from Early Warning systems could detect such aircraft since they tend have Over Horizon Capability and would bounce from atmosphere over a target and provide information on aircraft." - firstly VHF metre band does not do OTH-B and any making this claim is being silly. Secondly, any VLO aircraft with all cardinal feature sizes above 5-10 metres will beat VHF radar, period. The only reason why it is only the B-2 is because nobody built anything else that size.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:54 pm

    From Wiki:

    A radio telescope is a form of directional radio antenna used in radio astronomy. The same types of antennas are also used in tracking and collecting data from satellites and space probes. In their astronomical role they differ from optical telescopes in that they operate in the radio frequency portion of the electromagnetic spectrum where they can detect and collect data on radio sources. Radio telescopes are typically large parabolic ("dish") antennas used singly or in an array. Radio observatories are preferentially located far from major centers of population to avoid electromagnetic interference (EMI) from radio, TV, radar, and other EMI emitting devices. This is similar to the locating of optical telescopes to avoid light pollution, with the difference being that radio observatories are often placed in valleys to further shield them from EMI as opposed to clear air mountain tops for optical observatories.

    source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_telescope

    Everything in the universe is moving including space itself, and most things are rotating... to send a radar pulse to the nearest star (our sun) the reply would take about 17 minutes... 8.5 minutes each way... but the signal would be very very hard to pick up from all the noise already being emitted from the sun all the time.

    To send a signal to a nearby star would take years for the signal to go out and come back and would be incredibly weak and lost in the stars own emissions.

    Radio astronomy is passive listening for the most part.

    Still no answer, i know it can carry 4 on the fuselage , but can pylons carry 2 more , or 4 more r-37?
    Can it carry 4 R-77 (amraam equivalents) in total on wings?
    Were talking about operational aircraft now.

    Perhaps you have not noticed the BM upgrade? It can carry weapons on four wing pylons.

    Take a look at the bottom of this page:

    http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Foxbat-Foxhound-92.html

    There is a reason fighter carry radar and not just IRSTs.

    Of course there is... low flying slow targets have much less detectible IR signatures... high flying supercruising targets however have hot fronts where friction heats their skin and the height they fly means cold air around them... so apart from the sun they are alone in being hot things in cold environments... and no clouds or moisture to hide behind...

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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:09 pm

    B-2 can beat any known radar, and likely be hard to see even with a 10 metre HF band radar.

    Then why did the US military change its flight profile to low level flight over Russia?

    Surely medium and high altitude flight maximises speed and range and reduces buffeting on the airframe to extend structure life.

    The only reason to go for low flight profiles is to hide from long range radar... but stealth is supposed to deal with this already... except they clearly don't think it will.
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    Post  Viktor on Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:13 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:No they werent and their detection was much reduced- for old Neva was at 25ish kilometers ,it took some time to get a lock and fire 2 missiles ,one missed but second broke the wing and destroyed f-117 just withing missile engagement envelope at 15km distance and 8km height.

    Yup, a plane that supposedly could not be even detected by Serbian air defense, got a lock on itself by ancient system and was shoot down.

    Priceless.

    So much about stealth.


    Rpg type 7v wrote:The sam crew wouldnt dare to engage for so long, if the nighthawk had wildweasel supports nearby.

    Or if SAMs had any protection no wild weasel tactics could be employ.
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    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    B-2 can beat any known radar, and likely be hard to see even with a 10 metre HF band radar.

    Then why did the US military change its flight profile to low level flight over Russia?

    Surely medium and high altitude flight maximises speed and range and reduces buffeting on the airframe to extend structure life.

    The only reason to go for low flight profiles is to hide from long range radar... but stealth is supposed to deal with this already... except they clearly don't think it will.

    Not sure why they did that but i can think of any aircraft be a bomber or a fighter would have low level flight mode built into it , if B-2 really flies low then it runs much higher risk of being shot down by Ack Ack or Low Level SAM as its a Huge Aircraft and it is subsonic.

    So flying high makes sense for an aircraft thats designed as flying wing.

    B-2 remains a big mystery and the power that be wont talk about it.
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    Post  medo on Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:19 pm

    B-2 can beat any known radar, and likely be hard to see even with a 10 metre HF band radar.

    No, it can not. Maybe you remember, that US bomb Chinese embassy in Belgrade, officially by mistake with JDAMs. They bomb it, because they think Chinese have installed passive radar, which use TV and radio signals to detect stealth planes, because Serbs constantly track them although in very hard EW and SEAD environment. After this bombing situation was not much different. In this war both F-117 and B-2 have EW and SEAD escort, without them more stealth planes could be shot down.

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