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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    victor7

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    Post  victor7 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:54 am

    Refusing Mig-35, you guys rejected an advanced block F16 with AESA for the cost of $50M tops of the tops.


    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.ca/2009/08/mig-35-brief-review.html

    Life cycle cost

    The service of MiG-35 is executed by condition, with condition assessment each 1000 flight hours up to max. 6000 hours of life (or 40 years of service).

    For comparison classic MiG-29 has only 2500 hours of life resource (or 20 years). Periodic routine service each 100 fly hours (1 year) is needed. Order works are each 200 f.h. (24 months). Plant MLU is needed on 800 and 1500 f.h. (9 and 17 years of service).
    With all the amortization in consideration the flight hour cost of MiG-35 is as 2.5 times cheaper than for classic MiG-29!

    There is an old calculation from the middle of 90th, for classic MiG-29's in Eastern Europe. Then the flight hour cost was $3000 for MiG-29 and $2000 for F-16 - it's without amortization cost.

    In 1994 – 1996 a new MiG-29's price was as $25 000 000. F-16's price was $18 600 000. MiG-29's airframe life was – 2,500 hours, or $10 000 for 1 hour. F-16's airframe life was – 8,000 hours, or $2,325 for hour. Mig-29's RD-33 engine of old serials has life of 800 hours, wile F-16's engine of that time has 2000 hours life. So, with all the life cycle expenditure the difference in flight hour cost between two planes was much higher: $15 500 for MiG-29 and about $5 900 for F-16! Even after the dollar/ruble parity has changed the prices very significant, single-engine F-16 remain to be more attractive in terms of lifecycle cost against classic MiG-29. With new MiG-35 coming, this advantage is going to totally diminish.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:57 am

    F-16 with AESA for 50 mill?

    lol yeah right.
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    Corrosion

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    Post  Corrosion on Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:36 am

    victor7 wrote:Just did a goog on F22 export here is the link, not verified btw
    http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/06/airforce_tactical_061409/

    Once Pakfa comes out and USAF sees it then they might go ahead with export version in order to reduce the unit cost and get some more for themselves.

    There wont be many(I would say none, except US) countries around the world that can afford F-22 in any meaningful numbers for the economies of scale aspect to kick in. Although I agree many would like to get their hands on F-22 namely Israel, Japan, Australia etc. But I don't think they will order more than a squadron each, considering its price and life cycle costs. Then the question arises, will the US export its best fighter for a few billion dollars when it can very easily make that money on F-35 sales anyway. I don't see the logic in that if you look from US point of view.

    Regarding Fulcrums, F16s, Mirage etc vrs LCA, The general idea was to buy already proven and practiced machines rather than spend billions in coming up with something which is barely like J-10 or early block F16s. Choice was not limited to the three only.
    LCA will be cheaper in the long run. Not to mention the technologies that have been developed for the LCA and the lessons learned during this program are invaluable and will help in future projects such as AMCA and also FGFA upto certain extent. Also some technologies developed are already being used in other legacy platform upgrades in India. The idea wasn't to get a proven platform but a lightweight platform to replace hundreds of Mig21 that IAF operated. LCA is/will be cheaper to operate than Fulcrum or F-16, which are clearly in medium weight category according to IAF classification.

    For a price of 1 Rafael, Indians could have gotten 3 very advanced quality jets from all around or even 2 Mig-35s with Aesa radars. Rafeal gives stealth, so what? How many stealths are needed to take out Chinese S-300s. I would have gone with two dozens at most.
    First of all, Rafale is not stealthy. It has frontal reduced RCS and some other measures but I am not sure how useful it will be against ground radars. But it has good avionics namely Thales Spectra etc., and is already integrated with lots of ground attack weaponry. And since France will operate it for at least 3 more decades, it has a good upgrade potential. Although I personally wouldn't have minded Mig-35 either. But frankly speaking Rafale brings more to the table. And since it is going to be first ever export for Rafale if this deal goes through. India has a chance to get a very good deal and it will much cheaper than 120 million that you keep stating, since it will be built in India.

    F22 export model
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMSgwa46S8 pirat
    I am sure Australia will love it. Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:52 am

    US export its best fighter for a few billion dollars when it can very easily make that money on F-35 sales anyway. I don't see the logic in that if you look from US point of view.

    And that is critical... F-22s sales will kill F-35 sales and as numbers for orders keep dropping for the F-35 it becomes more and more expensive.

    Sales of F-22s for export will not be big enough to reduce the price and lets face facts the US can barely afford the upkeep on them... for the Israeli air force or the Australian air force or even the Japanese air force the costs of maintainence will likely chew up the budget and kill other more valuable programs.

    It makes rather more sense for the US to let the F-22 die and work on an unmanned 6th generation aircraft they keep crapping on about... even if the first version has a pilot to reduce development costs.

    India has a chance to get a very good deal and it will much cheaper than 120 million that you keep stating, since it will be built in India.

    Building them locally usually increases costs, though there are plenty of benefits to that that outweigh the extra cost. Upskilling the local workforce, is just one example.

    I am sure Australia will love it.

    For the sort of money a single F-22 squadron would cost they would be better off buying an aircraft carrier or a couple of submarines.

    Imagine if Australia had accepted the Russian advances in the 1990s... they wouldn't have troops in Afghanistan, they could have Su-34s replacing their F-111s and instead of Super Hornets the money and effort they could be introducing their own Su-35 variant into service to replace their legacy Hornets and they likely would be working now on RVV-BD missiles. Instead of thinking about a Collins replacement from Europe they could be paying for the completion of an OSCAR II class vessel with an upgrade to replace the Granits with Yakhonts.

    They could even be collaborating with Russia on a variant of the PAK FA... if India didn't want them in on the FFGA then perhaps the Australians and the Brazilians could work together with the Russians on another variant of the PAK FA or perhaps a light 5th gen fighter with Mig?

    Ahh well.... if is one of the biggest words in the English language...
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    Post  ali.a.r on Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:46 am

    I read that the RCS of the F-117 was dramatically increased when it opened its bomb bays because the stealth design was then compromised. If that is true, then that should mean that all stealth aircraft will lose their stealth as soon as they try to launch a weapon, because all the stealth aircraft in the world rely on their bomb bays since there aren't any stealthy missiles or munitions ( at least, I dont think there is ). Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:41 pm

    It is subject to the law of diminished returns.

    To get the highest stealth possible you need to have everything perfect... any deviation from perfection and the whole thing is ruined.

    I remember reading of an F-117 that was actually being tracked easily by civilian radar of all things.

    Turns out they had been doing maintainence on the aircraft and two screws were not screwed down fully and stuck out above the surface.

    It was enough to ruin the stealth of the aircraft.

    Might sound silly... the tips of two screws sticking up from an otherwise flat surface, but because of the frequency the radar was operating at the two screw tips were far enough apart to reflect the radar signal back to the radar source with a fairly strong signal that allowed the otherwise stealthy aircraft to be not only detected but also tracked.
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    Post  Corrosion on Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:55 pm

    ali.r,

    But it is only for few seconds. After the doors are closed it will be back to its optimal condition. Whether the opposing aircraft can capitalize on that is different matter. All up that is a non issue IMO.

    IMHO it will be silly for the opposing aircraft pilot to play into the strengths of Stealth aircraft and go straight at him if its location is known even for a second. Non-stealth pilot has to innovate and use other devices he has such as EW equipment and Infra Red/ visual detectors, maybe even switch of his own radar for a while and go fly low, very low and try to get in close. If non stealth fighters are defending an airspace, then they can use ground assets and also fly much distance apart in order to triangulate. Networking data links will be very important, if stealth fighter is to be intercepted. The more closer a stealth fighter gets to a (advanced) 4th gen fighter, e.g. a latest model Flanker, its advantage diminishes. But non stealth fighter pilot has to play smart since he is at disadvantage and most likely will be detected first.

    But if a non-stealth or even stealth fighters are attacking an airspace defended by stealth fighters, then it will be very difficult for invading force. I think Pak-Fa has been designed the way it is as an interceptor, to defend airspace against stealth fighters/bombers.
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    Post  ali.a.r on Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:48 pm

    But it is only for few seconds. After the doors are closed it will be back to its optimal condition.

    Yes, it might be only for a few seconds.

    BUT.

    The enemy might not have a clue as to a stealth plane flying around in the airspace, but as soon as a missile is launched, then they'll know that something up there fired it, and then use every available resource to bring it down. You touched a lot on that in your reply.

    In the context of the original question (Is Russia safe from F-22?), the 'available resources' are ample. So, IMHO, a F-22 or F-35 over Russia would be on a suicide mission if it ever launches any thing.
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    Post  victor7 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:23 pm

    In the context of the original question (Is Russia safe from F-22?), the 'available resources' are ample. So, IMHO, a F-22 or F-35 over Russia would be on a suicide mission if it ever launches any thing.


    No Country for Old Men.............
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:40 am

    Suggesting less than 200 stealth fighters all based in the US and hangar queens at that makes all other aircraft obsolete is naive.

    Just like suggesting that nuclear weapons make war impossible... which clearly hasn't been the case for the last half century.
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    Post  victor7 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:11 am

    http://defensetech.org/2007/12/07/the-poor-mans-stealth-detector/

    Time and again, USAF sources have said that F22 vrs 6 or so F15s is not even a fair fight. Many have termed Raptor as a 6th generation plane..........got to give some value to these statements. USAF does not like to boast and post wrong figures. dunno

    If I were an air force of say Iran or Pakistan or India, then against F22 I would not even send my legacy jets to get slaughtered. Either shoot F22 by a mobile SAM or kill off the missiles and bombs launched by the Raptor. Save your air defense networks like Serbians did and prolong the 'hostile excursion' by the USAF.

    ps: do not think any of the above, Iran, Pak or India have even S300s, so SAM question is out the window.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:25 pm

    Time and again, USAF sources have said that F22 vrs 6 or so F15s is not even a fair fight. Many have termed Raptor as a 6th generation plane..........got to give some value to these statements. USAF does not like to boast and post wrong figures.

    The USAF that won WWII on its own in Europe with its strategic bombing campaign knows little of the truth.

    F-15s don't have IRSTs or R-73s or for that matter any BVR IR guided missiles.

    They have spent trillions on stealth... they are hardly going to admit it is not all powerful or their budget might get cut more than it is.

    Save your air defense networks like Serbians did and prolong the 'hostile excursion' by the USAF.

    The serbs were very skillful with what they had, but they had poor equipment. Give them better stuff and not only would their losses have been low, but they could have gone on the offensive and done some real damage.

    ps: do not think any of the above, Iran, Pak or India have even S300s, so SAM question is out the window.

    The USAF has very few basing options for the F-22 in the region of Iran or Pakistan or India without using inflight refuelling.

    The US wants to get into bed with India... it is hardly going to sht where it eats and attack them.

    Equally there is little point in attacking Pakistan... what would be the point... or more importantly why use an F-22 when an unmanned drone can already do the job?

    To attack Iran would be pointless because it will create the very thing they fear... a unified and focussed Iran bent on creating a nuclear weapon. Even if they sent every bomber they had they will never hit all the secret underground facilities... for every 10 they know about there are probably another 30-40 they don't... they don't have to be big... the original reactor the US used to create the plutonium for nuclear weapons was built on an area the size of a basket ball court.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:10 pm

    Garry

    I apologise for using tough word (crude) , i didn't explain well what i mean, i meant old mig-29s that havn't upgraded yet ,but the upgraded MIGs are good in combat missions ,but old MIGs that havn't upgraded yet have low chances in compraison with new western aircrafts , i apologise if i wrongly wrote a hateful speech,i'm already a russian stuff fan ,that's why i'm here Smile
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    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:28 pm


    Simply put, said Pierre Sprey and James P. Stevenson, the F-22 Raptor is shaping up to be the Sturmvogel of the 21st century: a dazzling piece of technology that fatally ignores some of the unbending realities of aerial combat.

    On surface, the Raptor debate ended six months ago. After years of controversy, the Air Force and Defense Department reached a final agreement on the Raptor program, with DoD and Congress approving full production of the stealth fighter while capping the program at 183 aircraft, a 50-percent reduction of the 381 planes that the service had long said it needed at a minimum.

    (For Tyndall Air Force Base, where the Raptor pilot training program is located, this has meant a reduction in training squadrons from two to one, with 29 of the sleek fighters to be used in preparing pilots for combat units.)

    But to Sprey, a founding member of the so-called “fighter mafia” group that during the 1960s and 1970s ramrodded the F-15, F-16 and A-10 programs into being despite fierce internal opposition, and military author Stevenson, who has written extensively on the Navy’s F/A-18 and A-12 fighters, the Air Force has created a major crisis in its future combat capability by sticking to the Raptor program.

    The two analysts presented their stark findings to a symposium at the nonprofit Center for Defense Information on Friday in Washington, D.C. The two analysts provided their findings to The News Herald, and Sprey elaborated on the issues in a telephone interview.

    Sprey said his briefing focused on the time-tested factors that define an effective fighter plane: (1) See the enemy first; (2) outnumber the enemy; (3) outmaneuver the enemy to fire, and (4) kill the enemy quickly.

    “The Raptor is a horrible failure on almost every one of those criteria,” Sprey said.

    The stellar attribute of the F-22 — its invisibility on enemy radar due to a computer-aided stealth design — is a “myth,” Sprey said. That is because in order to locate the enemy beyond visual range, the Raptor (like every other fighter) must turn on its own radar, immediately betraying its location.

    Nor is the aircraft design effective simply because its advocates insist so, Sprey said. The 1980s-era F-117 stealth fighter was supposed to be invisible too, but post-Gulf War studies showed that the aircraft had been spotted by Iraq’s ground-based radars, he said.

    And in the 77-day aerial campaign against Serbia in 1999, the adversary’s “1950s-era radar” managed to locate and shoot down two F-117s, Stevenson pointed out in his presentation. The situation is actually worse today, he said, because many nations have acquired advanced missiles that can home in on radar emissions.

    “Who do you want in a dark alley?” Stevenson asked. “The cop with the flashlight, or the crook with a gun that fires light-homing bullets?”

    Because the Raptor ultimately ballooned into a weapon that costs $361 million per copy, even Congress could not stomach the total program cost exceeding $65 billion, Sprey said. As a result, the Air Force is now committed to fielding a fighter program that lacks sufficient numbers to prevail in a major conflict, however effective the individual aircraft may be.

    “Hitler had 70 Me-262s in combat,” Sprey said. “They were crushed by the force of 2,000 inferior P-51s that the United States had in the air.”

    Early reports from mock deployments of the Raptor also show a major shortfall in the fighter’s sustainability in combat, Sprey said.

    “The F-16 costs one-tenth of the F-22 and flies three times as often due to the issues of stealth, complexity and maintenance affecting the Raptor,” Sprey said. Sustainability and the number of aircraft available to fight on any given day, he added, are “vastly more important” than the quality of the F-22. “You have to have numerical superiority to win.”

    On the last two points, maneuverability and capability for a “quick kill,” the two analysts assert that the Raptor is inferior to the F-16 and several allied fighter designs in the crucible of “energy-maneuverability.”

    “Some (experts) assert that in the next air war,” all of the radars will be off and the air war will merge to air combat maneuvering,” Stevenson observed.

    The Raptor’s performance in that mode will be “disastrous,” Sprey added.

    “The only thing that will bail the U.S. Air Force out of this mess is the fact that they still have a lot of F-16s in service,” Sprey said, “The day they send the F-16s to the ‘boneyard’ is the day the service becomes a non-Air Force.”

    http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ask_this.view&askthisid=197
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    Post  victor7 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:36 pm

    To attack Iran would be pointless because it will create the very thing they fear... a unified and focussed Iran bent on creating a nuclear weapon.

    The attack on Iran has several goals. One major goal is the regime change in the Russia friendly nations. Second goal is to access the Central Asian energy sources via Iran and thus further reducing Russia's influence in the CIS. Many other goals can be listed, however final goal is Russia.

    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/05-04-2012/121003-missile_defense_retaliation-0/

    Maximum range of R-73 is 40km, Maximum range of IRSTs is 60KM.......would not work well against F22s, IMHO. It will first burn off your radar from 200Km then from around 100 Kms it will fire AIM-120. Your IRST will find it at around 60 km giving giving you 50 odd seconds at most to evade.

    For 25 years this stealth technology has been breathing down the necks of the adversary air forces and no solution yet reached to DeTacK it. Better focus on beating its missiles and bombs and also on increasing the range of IRST based identifiers.

    Point has been repeatedly made that Russia has tools to handle stealth but if one by one Russia's friends are taken out then that is much more of a threat to the RF than F22s going on hunting missions against Russia's national interests.


    Last edited by victor7 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:14 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  medo on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:54 pm

    The USAF that won WWII on its own in Europe with its strategic bombing campaign knows little of the truth.

    And 3/4 of Luftwaffe was on Russian front...
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    Post  victor7 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:20 pm

    For 1 division employed on the western front there were 7 divisions fighting the Russians in the east.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:10 pm

    I am nearly confident that F22 already has some secret technologies that its adversaries do not know about and thus not spend efforts in finding counter measures. Direct Energy, Blinding or Killing lasers, even mini EMPs can all be possible on F22 and F35s already.


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    Victor7 i agree perfectly with you, rather i think that Raptor has also an antimatter gun and some sort of energy shield activated directly with mere thought by the pilot (also if ,obviously, F-22 wouldn't never employ it because no enemy can see it).

    If i would be in you ,i would start a good thread of F-16.net on the subject ; i am sure you would very quickly collect a big herd.....cough....i intended group...group....of happy fans celebrating your ideas.
    After that you could start other threads named ,for example : " F-22 Raptor vs Klingon starship" or " F-22 Raptor and B2 Spirit 10th or 11th generation aircraft ?" , i can barely image the success you could obtain. Very Happy Very Happy




    Time and again, USAF sources have said that F22 vrs 6 or so F15s is not even a fair fight. Many have termed Raptor as a 6th generation plane..........got to give some value to these statements. USAF does not like to boast and post wrong figures.

    Oh yes ,sure ... Laughing Laughing .
    CLAIMS are cheap ,do you know...but outside world of WORDS we only see that :

    1) F-22 in the only instance where was allowed to participate in a not USAF controled DACT exercise vs allied RAF ,with both WVR and BVR engagements, has been not only dominated WVR (for the lack of any type of even '80 years level HOBS missiles) but was also tracked at very surprising long range by Thypoon.

    2) Since the "incident" F-22 was never allowed anymore to participate in any DACT exercise with not american-controled Red groups ,in spite that.... SUPPOSEDLY..... F-22 shouldn't risk anything in the BVR engagement , if it was TRULY as undetectable as CLAIMED,in fact, those engagement would finish with the Raptor engaging the enemy aircraft completely undetected and,therefore ,with virtually zero risks for its classified capabilities.
    The UNIQUE RISK that a similar USAF choice would avoid would be the EXACT OPPOSITE :
    - that F-22 would result much,much more detectable than what selled usually in the PR oriented CLAIMS

    3) F-22 has never participated (even only in a purely symbolic way) in any international mission where any foreign aircraft was present .
    Anyone can easily realize how the possible rational behind this odd choice by part of USAF strangely correspond to that of the previous point Cool

    4) F-22 raptor has been discontinued after just few years from its IOC...strange...VERY STRANGE , isn't ?


    Victor7, even escaping to the points i have exposed, try to reason for some seconds ;do you find credible that one F-22 armed with six....SIX....AIM-120C (a missile that have proved in actual operations a PK of 0,46 against.... vastly outdated targets literally not employing any type of countermeasures and not attempting any manoeuvre to avoid them !!! ) can even only have one chance on 100 to win ?

    Please Victor7 REASON !!!!

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    Post  victor7 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:34 pm

    do you find credible that one F-22 armed with six....SIX....AIM-120C (a missile that have proved in actual operations a PK of 0,46 against.... vastly outdated targets literally not employing any type of countermeasures and not attempting any manoeuvre to avoid them !!! ) can even only have one chance on 100 to win ?

    Where did you get this information? PK of AIM-120C is 60% and two by some reasoning is 75% taking in other factors also. This is as per the Ausairpower website. If AIM-120C/D was so bad then USAF pilots would have refused to fly with it as it would risk their own lives. It would have been a big scandal coming out on 60 Minutes type programs.

    Bro, in my reasoning a soldier a pilot or naval cadet is........not a cannon fodder from a poor family of some Russian village in Siberia. If system for defense is not in place then better to keep away, the 'human being' from the harm's way and more so because that individual is the country mate. Do not feed in false stories to the teenage soldiers and send them to their destruction, in other words, PROVIDE ACTUAL MEALS TO THE SOLDIERS AND NOT ASK THEM TO FIGHT HUNGER BY JUST IMAGINING 'WAITERS COMING WITH BIG MEALS' WHILE THEY ARE BURIED IN SNOW OF -40 CELSIUS TEMPERATURES.

    FEEDING FALSE STORIES AND THEN MAKING SOLDIERS BEG DOOR TO DOOR FOR FOOD IN CHECHNYA IS BEYOND SHAMELESSNESS.


    F-22 raptor has been discontinued after just few years from its IOC...strange...VERY STRANGE , isn't ?

    Raptor was discontinued due to economy related reasons. Also in a new strategy couple of F22s will be helping out two whole squadrons of F15/F16s and act as a force multiplier. Borrowing few capabilities of F22s makes legacy jets even more effective. New strategy does not call for two whole squadrons on F22s on the onset unless opposing force is Russia or China......Chances of that are very slim like less than 5%.

    Also the vast number of quality legacy jets in USAF/USN call for no immediate need for another 100 or 200 Raptors. Once Pakfa comes out and USAF checks it then they might or might not go for additional F22s.......this is my guess atleast.

    but was also tracked at very surprising long range by Thypoon.

    if that is actually true, then Typhoon has something special going for itself. Soon Raptor will be detecting Legacy jets from 400kms........deal with that! What if USAF modifies its AMRAAMs to go over 200 Kms, that would be something tough to deal with.
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    Post  gloriousfatherland on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:41 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    To attack Iran would be pointless because it will create the very thing they fear... a unified and focussed Iran bent on creating a nuclear weapon.

    The attack on Iran has several goals. One major goal is the regime change in the Russia friendly nations. Second goal is to access the Central Asian energy sources via Iran and thus further reducing Russia's influence in the CIS. Many other goals can be listed, however final goal is Russia.

    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/05-04-2012/121003-missile_defense_retaliation-0/

    Maximum range of R-73 is 40km, Maximum range of IRSTs is 60KM.......would not work well against F22s, IMHO. It will first burn off your radar from 200Km then from around 100 Kms it will fire AIM-120. Your IRST will find it at around 60 km giving giving you 50 odd seconds at most to evade.

    For 25 years this stealth technology has been breathing down the necks of the adversary air forces and no solution yet reached to DeTacK it. Better focus on beating its missiles and bombs and also on increasing the range of IRST based identifiers.

    Point has been repeatedly made that Russia has tools to handle stealth but if one by one Russia's friends are taken out then that is much more of a threat to the RF than F22s going on hunting missions against Russia's national interests.

    Actually the current lock range of IRST operating on Su-35s are 80km
    And yes the Euro-typhoons were able to track the raptor at far distances. Guess the americans didn't use their stealth tech in that exercise eh pirat
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    Post  Corrosion on Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:37 pm

    victor7 wrote:Bro, in my reasoning a soldier a pilot or naval cadet is........not a cannon fodder from a poor family of some Russian village in Siberia.
    Cant you say the same about US Forces. Where they are sent to Iraq on bunch of lies. They are a cannon fodder for corporate interests put forward as spreading democracy and freedom for Iraqis. What do you think?
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    Post  victor7 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:51 pm

    Cant you say the same about US Forces. Where they are sent to Iraq on bunch of lies. They are a cannon fodder for corporate interests put forward as spreading democracy and freedom for Iraqis. What do you think?

    I can reply in detail to that but do not want to change from the main topic of the thread. However, US doctrine gives most importance to the safety and well being of its men and women in uniform or even in civilian aspects.



    Regarding, Raptor - its chances are great from BVR and if it does not kill from there then it better run away as it is not proven to be an excellent dogfighter.

    In the BVR, your missiles are only as good as your radar is. If Raptor radar is way advanced then there is the main advantage right there.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:09 am

    Where did you get this information? PK of AIM-120C is 60% and two by some reasoning is 75% taking in other factors also.

    Do you know all the point of stealth SHOULD be to engage enemy aircraft from BEYOND visual range -BVR- , if you intend to include missile shoot well WITHIN visual range to attempt to obtain a figure of almost 60% ( 0,59 PK for the precision) i see the picture for your F-22 become more and more gray......; even more important ,we must add that this PK of 0,46 has been achieved against aircraft vastly downgraded ,devoid of any type of defensive suit, manned often by not proficient pilots, completely unaware to be under attack (none of them had ever begun any evasive manoeuvre against the incoming missiles) and of any type of offensive weapon allowing them to react ,fighting against an enemy outnumbering them 17 to 1 and with support of AWACS. Shocked Shocked Shocked

    Note : To be fair, we should remember that in practically ALL the air to air kills obtained by NATO in pasted war ,except two ,even the few obtained at "BVR" , was conducted well within tracking range of even the older OEPrNK-29 optoelectronic tracking suit of MiG-29 Fulcrum and also well within engagement range of R-73.]


    If AIM-120C/D was so bad then USAF pilots would have refused to fly with it as it would risk their own lives. It would have been a big scandal coming out on 60 Minutes type programs.

    AIM-120’s capabilities are more than sufficient for the typical opponent of NATO ; with your line of reasoning USA Navy operators would have shout to scandal for 40 years because all theirs weapons was dozen of times inferior to those available to Soviet in the same period and the same was true for ground forces ,air delivered missiles etc…etc..
    The reality is that between the two blocks was URSS at believe that an offensive "strangling" conventional war against NATO was possible not the opposite ; NATO's strategists ,instead, has always computed that any other option ,except a full nuclear response, was deemed to conduct to a complete defeat of the organization in a full scale Soviet offensive scenario in Europe and Great Britain.

    Also today USA and Russia are aware that the only weapons that would have any importance in an....apocalyptic... conflict between them would be quality and effciency of nuclear weapons and of respective national strategic ABM system ; and the move by part of USA to exit unilaterally from ABM treaty in 2002 and begin the BM shield in East Europe is just an attempt to find a remedy for a very big and faster growing technological gap in nuclear delivery systems against Russia , a factor that with the post-Cold War reduced number of missiles menaced to become irremediable for USA .


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    Post  victor7 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:40 am

    IRST missile canceller

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkkWya-oun0&feature=related

    IRST going out of business soon it seems if we go by this video.

    http://www.gizmag.com/adaptiv-ir-invisibility-cloak/19748/


    Also today USA and Russia are aware that the only weapons that would have any importance in an....apocalyptic... conflict between them would be quality and effciency of nuclear weapons and of respective national strategic ABM system

    This logic is no different from Drunk Yeltsin's policies in 1990s that starved the defense research and hollowed the Russian defense structures. Keep on counting on the nukes.........you have good going till 2015, when BMDs are all over Europe and US treating Russia like it treats Iran today. Hope Not but luck sides with the one who is well prepared.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:49 am

    i meant old mig-29s that havn't upgraded yet ,but the upgraded MIGs are good in combat missions ,but old MIGs that havn't upgraded yet have low chances in compraison with new western aircrafts ,

    Isn't that a logical truth though?

    The whole purpose of the design of an aircraft is to meet a need and that need is to generally compete as well if not better than the similar class aircraft made by rivals.

    Therefore by definition the purpose of any upgrade is to improve performance to either give it an edge or to address some weakness found.

    A case in point is with the F-4 Phantom that later had a gun added... they believed it would not be necessary because it was a big expensive heavy fighter with long range missiles and the enemy was never going to get close enough for the F-4 to need a gun.

    Enter the real world and those long range missiles were not as effective as they thought they would be and they realised they needed a gun so it was upgraded.

    Now lets look back at what you said...

    "i meant old mig-29s that havn't upgraded yet ,but the upgraded MIGs are good in combat missions ,but old MIGs that havn't upgraded yet have low chances in compraison with new western aircrafts , "

    So old aircraft would have problems with old aircraft that had been upgraded after experience in testing against Mig-29s and new aircraft designed with Mig-29s in mind.

    Yes, I think that is fair to say that, but equally even just a few simple upgrades... like a modern self defence suite, a new more powerful radar and a new set of modern digital AAMs and all of a sudden for 10-20 million dollars you suddenly have a world class aircraft again.

    There are lots of people who don't think much of the Mig-29 and I think in a lot of cases that is down to ignorance. I am not suggesting people who disagree with me are ignorant, what I am saying is that most people get their information from western sources who have an agenda... they need a boogy man to promote sales and for a while that was the Mig-29 which for a while was depicted as a carbon copy of a Hornet, but now that boogy man is the Su-27 and its later models and the Mig-29 is underrated because it turns out it is not as good as they expected/pretended. Of course with upgrades it is actually rather better than they even thought it was before, but now it is considered bad it would need to go to war and be successful... and what chance is it that a country with Mig-29s could win a war... it would pretty much be down to India unless you are impressed by Mig-29s shooting down Israeli designed Georgian owned drones.

    I know of at least one person who didn't like the Mig-29 at all who did a bit of research and ended up thinking it was clearly not as bad as everyone thinks but most people don't bother.

    i apologise if i wrongly wrote a hateful speech,i'm already a russian stuff fan ,that's why i'm here

    It is always important to be clear... you can think the Mig-29 is rubbish... it certainly isn't perfect and the early models had clear deficiencies, and these were made to appear worse with comparison with the F-16.

    Keep in mind that not being able to out turn an F-16 is only important if you don't have all aspect IR guided R-73s and a helmet mounted sight... because an R-73 can out turn an F-16.

    Dogfighting is all about getting on the tail of an enemy and staying there till you have shot them down.

    High off boresight missiles and helmet mounted sights is about seeing first and killing first.

    The latter is the most critical thing about a dogfighter and a HMS and high off boresight missile are the best tools to achieve that.

    The attack on Iran has several goals. One major goal is the regime change in the Russia friendly nations. Second goal is to access the Central Asian energy sources via Iran and thus further reducing Russia's influence in the CIS. Many other goals can be listed, however final goal is Russia.

    But an attack on Iran will unite the Iranian people against the attacker whether it is the US or NATO or Israel... and would create huge support for any country that opposes the attack... in other words it will likely actually make Iran more dependent on Russia which would be the opposite of the stated goals...

    Maximum range of R-73 is 40km, Maximum range of IRSTs is 60KM.......would not work well against F22s, IMHO. It will first burn off your radar from 200Km then from around 100 Kms it will fire AIM-120. Your IRST will find it at around 60 km giving giving you 50 odd seconds at most to evade.

    First of all the tactics used by the F-22 are critical... it will prefer to fly high and fast which will add energy to its missiles and take energy away from missiles fired by aircraft flying slower and lower.

    The thing is that a supersonic aircraft generates heat friction on its front and even though it is not using AB it will still be generating lots of heat through full dry thrust and friction generated hot spots over the front of the aircraft.

    40km range is the ideal range for R-73, but a supercruising F-22 is the ideal target.

    The R-27ET has a range of 60km head on and uses the same seeker as the R-73.

    A super cruising target flying very high means no earth background with a hot target so I would expect the look up range against an F-22 for an IRST would be rather more than 60km.

    An AMRAAM fired from 100km would be much easier to defeat than any other missile because the F-22 can only carry C model AMRAAMs which means 100kms is their max range.

    For 25 years this stealth technology has been breathing down the necks of the adversary air forces and no solution yet reached to DeTacK it.

    Who said there is no solution?

    The F-22 cannot send information to other planes in the USAF so anything they detect they never talk about to others because that would reveal their positions.

    LPI might be true in the 1980s but with modern computer processors and sensors any radar signal coming from what appears to be empty space is a huge clue.

    BTW for 25 years the Russians have been working on the problem but the military only started buying the solutions after about 2008, and there are a few things that have needed to be worked out first but they are well on their way to getting into service systems like S-400 and Vityaz and S-300V4 and Su-35 and indeed PAK FA.

    Better focus on beating its missiles and bombs and also on increasing the range of IRST based identifiers.

    Without AMRAAMs the F-22 is a fairly mediocre dog fighter... a UCAV with two IIR seeking missiles and a single small engine would be ideal for killing F-22s... assume a flight of 24 F-22s operating over a region in Russia... space and ground based radar will detect them fairly rapidly but what do you do about it?

    Send up 50 UCAVs that are armed with IIR missiles... the goal is not some super UCAV that costs hundreds of millions of dollars... just a simple basic transonic UCAV with maybe 4 IIR missiles... two heavy BVR missiles and two agile short range WVR missiles... right now I would go for 2 x R-27ETs and 2 x R-73s with datalinks directing them to where the F-22s have been located.

    The absolute maximum weapon load for the F-22s is 6 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders... if the carried external missiles they wouldn't be stealthy any more and you could deal with them the same way you'd deal with an F-15C.

    Completely ignoring the Sidewinders that means the entire flight... which will not be flying together... will have a max of 6 x 24 AMRAAMs which means 144 AMRAAMs to evade... now that is a lot of missiles (but it is also more than 10% of the USAF fleet of F-22s) but there are advantages. Our UCAV can be designed to pull 15 or 20 gs so it should be able to evade incoming AMRAAMs simply by performing predesigned manouvers that it can immediately start performing as soon as it detects an AMRAAMs seeker going active.

    The UCAV wont have a radar so the AMRAAM can't engage it passively in any way.

    When the UCAV gets to close proximity of where the F-22s are it can scan the area with its IR sensors and engage the targets with its missiles and then return to base.

    Sending up a force of 50 UCAVs even if not one F-22 is shot down they will likely have expended an enormous amount of fuel and energy and be rather low on missiles too... which is when you send up the Su-35s together with PAK FAs.

    Of course they don't have the UCAVs now so I am projecting this engagement into the 2020 time period so the UCAVs will have advanced multi spectrum QWIP optical sensors and 2 x IIR seeking 280km range RVV-BD based weapon and two 9M100 Morfei short range IIR guided lock on after launch missiles... it would be very formidible...

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