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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:27 am

    I rather doubt that Migs designers care very much what F-16 pilots think about cockpit layout, the Mig-29s cockpit layout was designed to flow from the designs of previous aircraft so a Mig-21 pilot would feel right at home in a Mig-29 without too much extra training.

    Also keep in mind that pilots are like everyone else and what they were brought up on or taught is right and best and everything else is backward or wrong.

    As TR1 points out I am sure the Mig pilot would not trade their IRST or long range missiles for automation of tasks and procedures.

    Again we are comparing a 1984 Mig downgraded for Warsaw Pact countries with modernised F-16s...

    Their opinions would be relevant in the mid 1980s against Warsaw Pact forces, and at a time when the only AAM the F-16 was cleared to carry was the old model Sidewinders.

    If a real war had started those American pilots would have taken to the air thinking they were going to cream the enemy, but in actual fact very few would have survived their first encounter let alone developed tactics to counter the very clear superiority held by Soviet fighters of the time...
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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:32 pm

    If you want to use an IIR seeking missile like AIM-9X then it would help if you could see what the missile sees.

    One of its party tricks is to display an image of the target in the cockpit display to allow the pilot to pick a part of the target aircraft to lock and home in on. To display that live image of the target you would need an onboard computer network that can handle video feed at a decent frame rate.


    I remember using an Amiga 500 in the mid 1980s waiting several seconds for a HAM (hold and modify) picture image to load which it did a few lines at a time... in combat that would not be acceptable.

    they don't need or use a graphic TADLs are pure code faster and compact for a reason.

    There is the civilian and commercial computing and electronics operating environments, and then there are the military/naval electronics and avionics operating environments.
    The two environments, while related in some respects, are also completely different.

    except in rare medical/first responder instances, a computer crash is not a fatal event, just shut down and reboot. Shutting down and rebooting a jet fighter's computer during combat is not a option.

    I think its a comparing apples and oranges

    software used to track and intercept cruise missiles operates at a byte level,

    the moon landing was basically conducted on an 8kb computer

    bigger and fatter bandwidth is not automatically better especially for fighters.

    I remember using an Amiga 500 in the mid 1980s waiting several seconds for a HAM (hold and modify) picture image to load which it did a few lines at a time... in combat that would not be acceptable

    because in combat you don't need it - you only want and need to track the object of interest that does not require huge bandwidth


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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:34 pm

    the Mig29 HMS doesn't give a cue as to what the missile is locked to - certainly it was true of the former East German airframes - there's a very comprehensive description of operations with the Mig29 by a US pilot floating around, and it's quite illuminating as to how crude the whole thing is compared to western aircraft.

    I'd suggest training (western jet operators spend a lot of time and money in putting their stuff into the sky in large, well scriped DACT exercises), and situational awareness (both inside the cockpit and out!) are both more relevant than how many gigaflops are on tap.




    Mindstorm

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:47 pm

    It seem that our Victor7 has finally found one of the publications, that i had pointed out, from where "fulcrumflyer" (the mental disturbed poster at F-16.net that had written the comical piece cited by Victor7 in an old post) had taken a part of its points....naturally picking attentively some and warping horribly others Laughing

    About the opinions expressed by the USAF pilot in "How to fly and fight in the Mykoian MiG-29" ,a part the normal dose of "patriotism" usually present in any military pilot, is very important to stress out some very important elements

    1) In this and other '90 years DACT exercises (mostly against German ,Czech and Bulgarian pilots and in peer conditions for the aircraft involved), the MiG-29A (older model) gained systematically the upper hand ,and by a very long margin, on practically all main NATO aircraft, F-16, F-15 and F-18.
    The reassuring element provided to the western pilots involved in those exercises (and likely the main reason by part of NATO's Command to even allow those exercises to continue and be repeated without the risk to create a true MiG-29 syndrome in the NATO pilot's mind) was that thiers aircraft could have avoid the defeat against MiG-29s pointing on the, supposedly, more advanced medium range missiles available to them and radar with greater engagement range and number of trackable targets ; at play ,as subliminal reinforcing element, was also the operative results obtained in pasted conflicts.....against the 20 Iraqi and 10 Serbian Fulcrum ,both vastly downgraded export models of the older MiG-29 version, attacked by the whole NATO Air Forces Rolling Eyes
    But this lead to the point two.

    2) The MiG-29 version taken into examination in "How to fly and fight in the Mykoian MiG-29" is the first version of Mig-29 while the F-16 employed by the opposing squdron was the F-16 Block 50.
    Great majority of the supposed "advantages" enjoyed by F-16 over MiG-29 and cited in "How to fly and fight in the Mykoian MiG-29" as counterbalancing factors of the Fulcrum's superior aerodynamic layout and crushing superiority in the 10 nautical mile arena ,are in reality merely the difference between the most outdated model of MiG-29 of '80 years and ,to the exact contrary, the most advanced version of F-16 available to USAF in those years Very Happy Very Happy

    Let take the radar : even the basis N019 radar was capable to track 10 targets against the 8 of AN/APG-68 radar ; the dirty "trick" played in those publications or by western pilots is not only to confront the most advanced suit available to NATO at the time with the most outdated for MiG-29 but also to add in the mix capabilities offered by the most advanced missiles available to them against the most outdated usable by the Fulcrum .
    In this instance we have, at example, that those advanced F-16C Block-50 are capable to track 8 and engage 4 targets only when equipped with AIM-120 missile,employing a semi-active missile such as AIM-7 (moreover inferior to the basis t-27) F-16 would show the same, identical limits cited for this outdated version of MiG-29.

    3) The Fulcrum's BVR weapons taken into examination in " How to fly and fight in the Mykoian MiG-29" is the basis R-27 (NATO designation Alamo-A) and only in its semi-active radar version .
    In the same year RuAF MiG-29s was already fully equipped with long burn versions of both semi-active radar homing R-27-R and IR homing R-27-T (named R-27-ER and ET) with not only vastly increased maximum engagement range (130 and 120 km respectively), but also better target designation range and ECCM; moreover RuAF MiG-29s operative in those years was capable to engage with salvo of two of those missiles ,usually one radar and one IR homing, to two different target and at maximum range.
    Would have been very interesting to know on which would have clung themselves USAF pilots ,in the attempt to find a sector of air combat arena of advantage of F-16 over MiG-29 examining VERSIONS OF VIPER AND FULCRUM OF THE SAME PERIOD. Laughing






    Last edited by Mindstorm on Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:01 pm

    Testing with F-16s and Mig-29s in the early 1990s clearly showed that while the F-16 has some advantages against the export model Mig-29 with certain extra downgrades (like engine and the use of the ferry tank) and in 62% of cases the F-16 successfully got onto the Migs tail


    GarryB i don't understand to what instance you refer.
    The only instance that come to my mind with a similar figure is a DACT exercise of USAF with Luftwaffe in 1994 cited in an article of P. Butowski and by E. Gordon in its book where Col. Jochen Both say that F-16 was capable to obtain better manoeuvrability parameters in 60% of the instances (no mention of gaining six o'clock position in BFM) , the problem is in a.......little detail Smile

    From pag 425 of Yefim Gordon's "Famous Russian Aircraft Mikoyan MiG-29"

    "When Luftwaffe MiG-29s participated in mock combat sessions in with USAF F-16Cs in 1994, the German pilots usually got theirs adversary in their sights first , which meant victory (first shot ,fist kill). The MiGs were armed with R-73 dogfight AAMs missiles and the pilots used Schchel'-3UM helmet-mounted sight.
    Col. Jochen Both,detached to the Luftwaffe for the duration of the exercise,stated that the Fighting Falcons showed better maoeuvrability in 60% of the time; on the other hand consider that the F-16s flew in "clean" condition while the MiGs had six pylons and carried a centreline drop tank and two fixed R-73 acquisition rounds "

    A....little detail Very Happy .




    victor7

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 on Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:30 pm

    Once more sure shot ways are developed to jamm or kill the approaching missiles, the air force war will again revert back to close in dogfights with loads of 20-30mm bullets being fired from cannons.

    For now the only way I can guess see to cancel out F22 is to own its A2A missiles. Employing everything from jammers to high density CIWS firing off HEs in an accurate fervor. Smile

    There was comment in the article about crudeness of Mig29. Two reasons a) simplicity of operations, repair and replacement of parts. The more complex a function is the more it is vulnerable to 'minor glitch' causing a 'major breakdown'. b) Those were Soviet times when human factor was given much higher value than the technological variables. In last 20 years, Russian industry has come to a good balance between automation and human excellence. Su-30s and above are no more 'monkey jumping around in a cage' scenario for pilots.

    No wonder items like AK-47s, Mig-21s still pack a lethal punch despite being crude and simple in design. Cool
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    TR1

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  TR1 on Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:28 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:the Mig29 HMS doesn't give a cue as to what the missile is locked to - certainly it was true of the former East German airframes - there's a very comprehensive description of operations with the Mig29 by a US pilot floating around, and it's quite illuminating as to how crude the whole thing is compared to western aircraft.





    You mean a biased description by an officer from an essentially opposing force? I could get some RUssian reviews of Western aircraft, they are not flattering.
    Come on, these reports are flawed from the start, even though they have interesting points at times.

    Crude or not, the F-16 flat out did not have anything like HMS+R-73 for years after the MiG-29 did. Or any BVR. That is what I call crude and simple!
    If we are gonna talk about Western aircraft as a whole, as people love to do, then the Mirage 2000 had an incredibly crude radar for years.

    It is a typical assessment by US officers to declare Soviet equipment as "crude" when it serves different functions and was built for a different service and exploitation strategy.

    victor7

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 on Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:33 pm

    It is a typical assessment by US officers to declare Soviet equipment as "crude" when it serves different functions and was built for a different service and exploitation strategy.

    That's true, western sources inflate their wrong opinions when it suits them. One cup of water on an airplane wing does not make it soaked and draining in rain........but they sure seem to project it like that.

    There can be two points on articles like above a) chances of client states buying western weapons will still be low to nothing as many a cases west would not sell them the weapon complex, so not much harm done to marketing b) such negative opinions help race the mind horses for improvement and creativity for next model or block of the weapon. Simple but equally effective weapon costs much less over the service lifetime cost. Indians are buying Su-30s w/AESA and total cost for 40 birds comes to $4B odd at $104M per unit. However these include the lifetime service costs. People tend to go with initial flyaway price which should be $30-40M for Su-30s and spread stories that Russians are trying to defraud Indian Air Force.

    I would rather buy an upgraded T-72 for $2M than a gas guzzler M1A1 for $6M. It is a matter of doctrine and other variables.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:33 am

    the moon landing was basically conducted on an 8kb computer

    And the Memdelev Table was also developed without computers... what is your point?

    My point is that even a bog standard Mig-29 uses 486 level computer hardware, so what is all this crap about the F-22 being a super computer with wings?

    bigger and fatter bandwidth is not automatically better especially for fighters.

    Most word processing and email that people do now on 8 core 3.5 GHz computers is not hugely different from the sort of thing they could have done in the 1980s on an Amiga 500 at something like 7.4 MHz clock speed.
    As you point out there is a difference between military and commercial, but a faster higher performance processor operating in a larger bandwidth has very important flow on effects in terms of capabilities.

    If you want sensor fusion then you need a system that can in real time combine raw data coming in from multiple sources (RHAW, IR sensors, Radar, and off platform sources and combine it all into a real time picture of everything around the aircraft.

    An 8 bit or 16 bit architecture will limit the number of memory addresses... even in a 32 bit environment Windows cannot recognise more than about 3 GB of RAM, which might not sound like a big deal but the amount of data a modern AESA radar can generate means you need as much grunt as you can get.

    Just as an example the original ZASLON radar of the Mig-31 was a very powerful set and its volume of scanning was enormous, but its range was not very impressive because of a lack of processing power.

    The current upgrades AFAIK use the same radar with the same antenna with almost double the range because of a much more powerful radar.

    A dedicated processor that is hard wired to a task doesn't need to be fast... do a search on my chats with Flanky about UAVs taking over the role of JSTARS in the Russian Air Force and even my chats with Vlad about making computer chips.

    A calculator can have a very slow processor but still do the job of calculations very very quickly, the problem is that in the 1980s as processors got faster the computers in military equipment moved from pretty much custom designed chips used for specific roles in specific aircraft where an upgrade means a whole new chip and hardware needs to be developed to a generic off the shelf chip where upgrades are just a question of a software patch or upgrade.


    because in combat you don't need it - you only want and need to track the object of interest that does not require huge bandwidth

    Again, this us supposed to be the best of the best... some even claim it should be called a 6th gen fighter because it is so much better than 4th gen fighters...

    the Mig29 HMS doesn't give a cue as to what the missile is locked to - certainly it was true of the former East German airframes - there's a very comprehensive description of operations with the Mig29 by a US pilot floating around, and it's quite illuminating as to how crude the whole thing is compared to western aircraft.

    What a load of rubbish. Looking through the glass monocle the pilot sees a reticle or aiming sight pattern and to use it he turns his head to put the target aircraft in the centre of the reticle and presses a button on his control stick which slaves the selected missiles seeker to his line of sight, so it turns to where he is looking and gets a lock on that target. When lock is acquired the pilot is free to pull the trigger and launch the missile.

    When this system entered service his NATO equivalent looked around in the sky for the enemy and when he located them he had to turn his entire aircraft to point his nose at the target and then activate his missile seeker to scan for the target. If there is a group of targets EVEN IF HE GETS A RADAR LOCK that means nothing because there is no link between his radar and his IR guided missiles so his radar might lock on one target and his IR guided missile might lock on a different target altogether...

    It is amusing the west calls the Soviet system crude because the US equivalent didn't enter service till at least 20 years later, has no clear advantages over the Soviet system though it is heavier, more complex and orders of magnitude more expensive so only a small percentage of US fighters actually have it... and that does not include their F-22s. On the other hand every model from the oldest to the newest Mig-29 and Su-27 have it fitted as standard.
    Also what is not widely recognised is that the R-27T and R-27ET are also high off boresight IR guided AAMs which benefit from the helmet mounted sight...

    I'd suggest training (western jet operators spend a lot of time and money in putting their stuff into the sky in large, well scriped DACT exercises), and situational awareness (both inside the cockpit and out!) are both more relevant than how many gigaflops are on tap.

    I'd suggest that it is par for the course... the Super aerial Cray computer is actually a white elephant that will likely be a hangar queen for some time to come...

    consider that the F-16s flew in "clean" condition while the MiGs had six pylons and carried a centreline drop tank and two fixed R-73 acquisition rounds "



    A....little detail Very Happy .

    To be clear the use of the centreline drop tank on an early model Mig-29 is for ferrying ONLY and limits the aircraft to something like 4g flight performance.

    Simple but equally effective weapon costs much less over the service lifetime cost. Indians are buying Su-30s w/AESA and total cost for 40 birds comes to $4B odd at $104M per unit. However these include the lifetime service costs. People tend to go with initial flyaway price which should be $30-40M for Su-30s and spread stories that Russians are trying to defraud Indian Air Force.

    The contents of that contract have not been revealed AFAIK, for all we know the $4B dollars could cover the price of the 40 new Su-30s with AESA plus an upgrade of existing aircraft to that standard. They equally could have ordered new simulators, or they might simply have included a large order of spare parts and weapons for their whole fleet with those 40 new aircraft.

    Corrosion

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Corrosion on Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:55 am

    Crude or not, IAF Mig29 pilots love it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwmMzgaW1RM

    More so it is also stationed at important places in India. Shows the confidence that IAF has in this plane.

    victor7

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:25 am

    Why do not the Indians go for more Mig-29s rather than trying to develop the LCAs which they have been........like forever!

    Mig21-Bis and Mig-21-98s have been known to give real hard time to even advanced block F16s. Only few upgrades needed like better engines, more range, better missiles and for $2M-3M you have a very decent fighter available for next 15-20 years. For $2B one can add whole new additional airforce of 600 planes of F16 quality. I think Turkey has an air force which is loaded with F16s only and same as Egypt but they also have few Mirage also.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:28 am

    Of course the Mig-29 pilots in India have the benefit that they are getting upgrades and are flying aircraft far superior than the aircraft these western pilots are complaining about.

    It is a bit like the M16 and the AK-47... comparing the latest model M16 with the original AK-47 and complaining that the AK-47 doesn't have the features of the M16.

    The amusing thing I find is people suggesting the AK-47 is not ergonomic.

    If you shoot left handed it is very ergonomic.

    Left handed people are trained to shoot right handed, so it should be no problem at all to train all soldiers to shoot left handed.

    Much cheaper than buying all new rifles...

    The thing is that people trained on M16s with peep iron sights and adjustable length stocks become used to such features, and when trying a different rifle that don't have those features will criticise their absence.

    The problem from a third party view is that the fact that they are used to a different system does not make the system they are trying bad or not good... I know for a fact that someone like me used to the AKM I don't like the western style peep iron sights, and the M16 is a very long rifle that could do with a folding stock instead of one you can move a few cms to make it slightly shorter or longer.

    Anyway... what I am trying to say is that these western pilots are basically criticising the first model Mig-29 for not being an F-16.


    Last edited by GarryB on Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total

    victor7

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:20 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaoYz90giTk&feature=related

    F22 vid from 2009..........why it was cancelled!

    power video on raptor
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPnVinSOGCk&feature=related
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:59 am

    Lets apply western rules to dealing with Soviet propaganda....

    If it is bad then it must be true. If it is not bad then it is a lie and should be ignored.

    Which basically means the first video condemning the F-22 was all truth and the second video was advertising rubbish that should be ignored.

    ...hey, I didn't make up the rules...

    Corrosion

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Corrosion on Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:54 am

    victor7 wrote:Why do not the Indians go for more Mig-29s rather than trying to develop the LCAs which they have been........like forever!
    It is the operational requirements. IAF is going to operate as three tier force....light, medium and heavy instead of hi/low combination. LCA/Mig21 is light, MMRCA/Mig29/Mirage etc. is medium and Su-30 Heavy. There are roles of point defense and escort fighters which should be multi-role as well. This is where LCA comes in. Not to mention it is an ingenious platform. It will not be allowed to fail IMO...similarly like F-35 wont be allowed to fail Wink

    Mig21-Bis and Mig-21-98s have been known to give real hard time to even advanced block F16s.
    Its only Bison that can give hard time to advanced F-16 if used intelligently. I don't think Mig21Bis is that capable platform.
    Only few upgrades needed like better engines, more range, better missiles and for $2M-3M you have a very decent fighter available for next 15-20 years.
    You can only go so far as there is limitation of space in Mig-21 airframe. All you suggest has been already done with Mig21. IAF is goint to operate last of Bisons upto 2017. You can read more here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Current/605-Bison.html and pictures here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Eqpmt/Walkarounds/MiG21Bison/
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    Mr.Kalishnikov47

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:00 pm

    The F-22 is a money sink with no future. End of story. I'm an American tax payer, so excuse me if I'm not fond of a dead end project that has costed billions upon billions of dollars and accomplished nothing.

    Not to mention the cost of upkeep and maintenance. How did the airforce ever think they could afford to maintain over 700 of these things anyways? Rolling Eyes


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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Firebird on Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:23 pm

    I read some stuff on the |F-22. And it looks like a horror story for the US taxpayer. You have to wonder how much of it is Republican cronies just fleecing the taxpayer for all they can.

    There's also a second implication of all this. And that is, who "won" the Cold War. Sure America will say " we won". Russia will say "nope we chose to adopt a new path".
    So who won? Well I think CHina and India etc haven't done badly out of the whole affair.

    Sure, in defence its important to handle your direct opponent. But you also have to think of 3rd parties taking advantage of your situation..Maybe America will come to seriously regret its activities in the M East. Lessons for everyone perhaps.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:18 pm

    There are roles of point defense and escort fighters which should be multi-role as well. This is where LCA comes in. Not to mention it is an ingenious platform.

    Wikipedia says LCA now costs $31M, this is more than Mig-29 for $29M and Mirage-2000 for $23M. Multirole features can be made by adding range and changing engines etc. Indians are throwing money away. More so because against their immediate adversaries Pak and China, they are sufficient currently so no need to buy $120M Rafaels or Eurofighters. They need to add some solid backbone planes like Fulcrum, Mirage-2000s or F-16D etc. I think they also threw several billions on Britics Hawk trainer when buying one from Russia like Yak would have been much cheaper and still offer war time light attack utility.

    People do not understand that it is the training i.e. men behind the machines that STILL matters especially when opposing sides are nearly evenly matched. Israeli Defense units are a good example of good training and improvisation to come out on top, nearly all the time, even when fielding inferior equipment on paper.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:24 pm

    Mr.Kalishnikov47 wrote:The F-22 is a money sink with no future. End of story. I'm an American tax payer, so excuse me if I'm not fond of a dead end project that has costed billions upon billions of dollars and accomplished nothing.

    Not to mention the cost of upkeep and maintenance. How did the airforce ever think they could afford to maintain over 700 of these things anyways? Rolling Eyes


    I would say money sunk is more a case of F-35 rather than F-22s. Currently F22s cost is $350M per unit but when exports take place after 2015, then it may come down to $150 per plane. Pakfa might hover around $120M which is still 20% cost effective.

    F22s reduction from 700 to 187 was more of an economy based decision rather than military. For now US sees no threat to its supremacy in the air force.

    F22 is not yet an 'end of story'. It is not neutralized yet and in the event of hostilities it can do some serious damage to the opposing legacy air forces. Other than Russia, no other country can prevent F22 from being a devastating bomber to the military or economic facilities with no clue to the victim nation as to "what happened and from where".
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    Mr.Kalishnikov47

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:09 pm

    victor7 wrote:

    I would say money sunk is more a case of F-35 rather than F-22s. Currently F22s cost is $350M per unit but when exports take place after 2015, then it may come down to $150 per plane. Pakfa might hover around $120M which is still 20% cost effective.

    F22s reduction from 700 to 187 was more of an economy based decision rather than military. For now US sees no threat to its supremacy in the air force.

    F22 is not yet an 'end of story'. It is not neutralized yet and in the event of hostilities it can do some serious damage to the opposing legacy air forces. Other than Russia, no other country can prevent F22 from being a devastating bomber to the military or economic facilities with no clue to the victim nation as to "what happened and from where".

    How is it supposed to do "serious damage" to anybody if it has to spend more than 34 hours on the ground for every two hours it flies?

    And by the way, about the cost, the F-22 program is supposed to end up costing a whopping 70 Billion dollars total, do you even realize how much money's gonna have to be taken from people like me to fund something that huge?

    If the U.S really wants to hit an S-400 from 200 km away or whatever you keep rambling on about, then they should just invest in more B-2 bombers, you know, something that might actually be useful.

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:10 pm

    30 hours for each hour of flight can also mean 30 men/machines working on different parts of the plane and in 1 hour the plane is ready for flight again.

    Hitting S-400 right now means taking on Russia. For a moment if we presume that is happening, then risking a $2B B2 vrs $350M F22 does not make sense. F22 is everything, interceptor, dogfighter, bomber, mini-AWACS and many other features. It's new radar is going to be finding out birds from 400 kms and that is some big issue to find a counter point on. More fearsome when this radar stands a chance to burn off your own from that distance leaving you only chance to quickly duck and run away or almost surly lose the plane.

    I am nearly confident that F22 already has some secret technologies that its adversaries do not know about and thus not spend efforts in finding counter measures. Direct Energy, Blinding or Killing lasers, even mini EMPs can all be possible on F22 and F35s already.

    Last year US was the net exporter of the energy. This means $700B savings to its treasury. This all has come from the oil extraction from the North Dakota Bekken shell oil find. The value of new oil findings in US is estimated at $200 Trillion. So do not be surprised if Mitt Romney gets elected and F22s get a clearance to build another 500 to completely replace the aging F15s. Even Obama might do that as he is very cunning and deceiving like Clinton was. Putin should not trust him on missile defense sweet talk. Russia has some serious work cut out in front regarding F22s and BMD bases propping up everywhere in Europe and very soon in Asia.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:36 pm

    Hahahahahaha... so they are actually going to build more of them!!!!

    Hilarious.

    Reopening production is never cheap... these planes will cost a fortune... without really changing the level of security for the US.

    In fact it will likely just increase international demand for the PAK FA and the eventual Chinese equivalent.

    Corrosion

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Corrosion on Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:44 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    this is more than Mig-29 for $29M
    IN mig29k costed around 42 million each.

    Mirage-2000 for $23M.
    It is not available anymore. Line closed.

    Multirole features can be made by adding range and changing engines etc.
    No idea what you meant here.

    More so because against their immediate adversaries Pak and China, they are sufficient currently so no need to buy $120M Rafaels or Eurofighters.
    No its not. A lot of Mig21 and Mig 27 are going to be retired, then there are Jaguars going to go as well. China is going to inducting J-10b, J-11b , nobody knows in what numbers. Also ramping up infrastructure in Tibet. Rafale is suited well here. It has a good ground strike potential as well.


    They need to add some solid backbone planes like Fulcrum, Mirage-2000s or F-16D etc.
    So Rafale doesnt have a solid backbone? scratch

    Corrosion

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Corrosion on Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:49 pm

    victor7 wrote:Currently F22s cost is $350M per unit but when exports take place after 2015, then it may come down to $150 per plane.
    You have any source that F-22 is going to be exported?

    Other than Russia, no other country can prevent F22 from being a devastating bomber to the military or economic facilities with no clue to the victim nation as to "what happened and from where".
    I thought F-22 cannot drop bombs.

    victor7

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:28 am

    Just did a goog on F22 export here is the link, not verified btw
    http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/06/airforce_tactical_061409/

    Once Pakfa comes out and USAF sees it then they might go ahead with export version in order to reduce the unit cost and get some more for themselves.

    Regarding Fulcrums, F16s, Mirage etc vrs LCA, The general idea was to buy already proven and practiced machines rather than spend billions in coming up with something which is barely like J-10 or early block F16s. Choice was not limited to the three only.

    For a price of 1 Rafael, Indians could have gotten 3 very advanced quality jets from all around or even 2 Mig-35s with Aesa radars. Rafeal gives stealth, so what? How many stealths are needed to take out Chinese S-300s. I would have gone with two dozens at most.

    Does a squadron of Rafeal have a potential to eat up 1/3rd of Pakistan's Airforce? If so, then probably a good choice. But $120M for a plane for country like India, is little expensive, I think...........given the cheap guy that I am! geek

    F22 export model
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMSgwa46S8 pirat

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    Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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