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    The T-80s future in the Russian Army

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    George1
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:13 pm

    runaway wrote:12.2013 All T-80 were withdrawn from service. (MoD)
    In December 2013, the Russian Ground Forces withdrew the entire T-80 fleet from service due to maintenance expenses, with all 4,500 now in storage.

    The 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division has for example been rearmed from T-80 to T-90. As for the 4th Guards Kantemirovskaya Tank Division, iam not sure.

    Not so hard to belive, it would be wise to put T-80 in storage, and it should stay there as reserve. As modernized T-72´s is a better tank with common parts with T-90.
    The russian army has roughly 2500-3000 active tanks, and T-55, T-62, T-64, T-80 is being taken out of service for service life, ease of maintenence and logistics.

    As for export, no chance, customers will chose T-72 or T-90 instead.

    In 2008, the 58th Army and peace keepers in  South Ossetia had T-90, T-72 and T-62 no T-80 what i have read, bad reputation from chechnya i guess.

    "The T-80 performed so poorly that General-Lieutenant A. Galkin, the head of the Armor Directorate, convinced the Minister of Defence after the conflict to never again procure tanks with gas-turbine engines"

    i thought T-90 deliveries had been stopped

    runaway
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  runaway on Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:08 pm

    George1 wrote:
    i thought T-90 deliveries had been stopped

    Right, no new orders from russian ministry of defence as of 2011. But existing orders fulfilled, do not know how big.
    However, in october 2013 the 20th Armored guards brigade was rearmed with 150 T-72B3.
    Seems like modernezing T-72 up to B3 standard is preferred over old T-80´s.

    "
    One military unit of the Russian army of the Western Military District, deployed in the Nizhny Novgorod region has taken delivery of new modernized main battle tank T-72B3. The first crews have completed their training on this new version based of the Russian made main battle tank T-72.

    In the near future new T-72B3 will be commissioned and assigned to the crews. In the first half of this year, the staff of the brigade was trained on this new main battle tank.

    In total, the 20th Armoured Guards Brigade of the Russian army, located in the Nizhny Novgorod region, will receive more than 150 main battle tanks T-72B3.

    The T-72B3 is equipped with the latest technology including a new fire control system and digital ballistic computer enable the crew to reduce the time of firing calculations and improve the accuracy of the 125mm gun. The T-72B3 is also fitted with a new thermal sight which provides combat capabilities during night and day in all weather conditions."





    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:19 am

    They could always use them into something into like the BMPT. A real shame the BMPT has been produce in numbers would be ideal in Chechnaya and Syria.

    Does anyone know what happened to Russia's T-62/T-64's scrapped????


    TR1
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:22 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:They could always use them into something into like the BMPT. A real shame the BMPT has been produce in numbers would be ideal in Chechnaya and Syria.

    Does anyone know what happened to Russia's T-62/T-64's scrapped????


    Some of them were stored to this day in pretty good condition, but aside from small numbers sold, they are basically either rotting away or being cut up.

    http://www.yaplakal.com/forum2/topic426273.html

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:13 am

    They could always use them into something into like the BMPT. A real shame the BMPT has been produce in numbers would be ideal in Chechnaya and Syria.

    The problem is like the T-80 is an AR and the T-72/90 is an AK.

    They both do the same jobs but use largely incompatible parts and systems... it doesn't make sense to keep the T-80 when there are plenty of existing T-72s to do the job... even if they do need minor upgrades.

    Most have gas guzzling gas turbine engines which would make them more expensive to operate, and with new diesel engines on the way with almost the same power it is best to let them sit in storage.

    Eventually they will be replaced in storage by upgraded T-72s when new vehicles replace them and they can either be scrapped or handed to allies or used as targets for weapons development or just target practise at exercise and shooting ranges (with all the salvageable bits removed first of course...).

    All the western claims about the T-72 being a death trap... they don't actually apply to a T-72 as much as they apply to the T-80 and T-64.

    The arrangement of combustible propellent stubs in the turret makes any armour penetration potentially catastrophic as sparks and burning metal and other material will fall to the floor of the turret where all the vehicles propellent stubs are located exposed and highly vulnerable.


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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:52 pm

    hi garry whats the general view of the upgraded T-72 in terms to western modern systems, as some people have on other forums that its still an old tank and that modern western stuff would still easily destroy them, and that no matter what upgrades you give them. I argued the fact it was cheaper to upgrade T-72's than to buy newer tanks, and that the upgrades brought them upto a decent standard of a modern tank capability.

    Also i believe that most forces these days are focusing on more mechanised and a force that is highly mobile rather than a seriously heavy force, times have changed since the cold war. But i do believe that its still wise to have a tank force, as war can be unpredictable.

    making reference about a thread that i created some time ago about a Scottish defence force, i think for a defence force/small force or a country with a small budget, its makes sense to buy a fully upgraded T-72 than a T-90, of course a T-90 is better but we all cant have the best equipment when a budget has to be considered. I think that even a mix of T-72 and T-90 would be better if budget allowed. A defence force may only have 2-4 tank regiments at most so you could have 1 regiment of each, and when Russia finally starts to replace its tank forces(wont be for a long time) you could replace the T-72's with T-90's.


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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  medo on Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:30 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:hi garry whats the general view of the upgraded T-72 in terms to western modern systems, as some people have on other forums that its still an old tank and that modern western stuff would still easily destroy them, and that no matter what upgrades you give them. I argued the fact it was cheaper to upgrade T-72's than to buy newer tanks, and that the upgrades brought them upto a decent standard of a modern tank capability.

    Also i believe that most forces these days are focusing on more mechanised and a force that is highly mobile rather than a seriously heavy force, times have changed since the cold war. But i do believe that its still wise to have a tank force, as war can be unpredictable.

    making reference about a thread that i created some time ago about a Scottish defence force, i think for a defence force/small force or a country with a small budget, its makes sense to buy a fully upgraded T-72 than a T-90, of course a T-90 is better but we all cant have the best equipment when a budget has to be considered. I think that even a mix of T-72 and T-90 would be better if budget allowed. A defence force may only have 2-4 tank regiments at most so you could have 1 regiment of each, and when Russia finally starts to replace its tank forces(wont be for a long time) you could replace the T-72's with T-90's.


    Hm, wasn't Scotland historically more connected with France? Maybe you could buy some used Mirages and surplus Leclerc tanks.

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:31 pm

    medo wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:hi garry whats the general view of the upgraded T-72 in terms to western modern systems, as some people have on other forums that its still an old tank and that modern western stuff would still easily destroy them, and that no matter what upgrades you give them. I argued the fact it was cheaper to upgrade T-72's than to buy newer tanks, and that the upgrades brought them upto a decent standard of a modern tank capability.

    Also i believe that most forces these days are focusing on more mechanised and a force that is highly mobile rather than a seriously heavy force, times have changed since the cold war. But i do believe that its still wise to have a tank force, as war can be unpredictable.

    making reference about a thread that i created some time ago about a Scottish defence force, i think for a defence force/small force or a country with a small budget, its makes sense to buy a fully upgraded T-72 than a T-90, of course a T-90 is better but we all cant have the best equipment when a budget has to be considered. I think that even a mix of T-72 and T-90 would be better if budget allowed. A defence force may only have 2-4 tank regiments at most so you could have 1 regiment of each, and when Russia finally starts to replace its tank forces(wont be for a long time) you could replace the T-72's with T-90's.


    Hm, wasn't Scotland historically more connected with France? Maybe you could buy some used Mirages and surplus Leclerc tanks.


    it was a post it did a while ago u should it. As an independent country Scotland would be able to do deals with any country willing to do so. Infact this week Putin even said if Scotland wanted to join the customs union he wouldnt say no.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:46 pm

    Since the scots have been fed with with antirussian propaganda for centuries by the british empire I rather doubt they would ever want to have anything to do with Russia.

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:59 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Since the scots have been fed with with antirussian propaganda for centuries by the british empire I rather doubt they would ever want to have anything to do with Russia.

    thats exactly one of the reasons for independence so Scotland can choose who it has relations with, Scotland has moved closer to china more so than westminister who quite often bad mouth china's human rights abuses. Scotland also has shown interest in the Scandinavian countries, and eastern europe. A Scottish defence force probably wouldnt want expensive western equipment, when they can get equipment which is cheaper to buy/maintain and fit for purpose, and if they chose russian equipment could heal relations which westminister has caused. It wouldnt be in a newly independent countries interest to have strained relations with other countries and especially ones which Scotland didnt make the choice. And in the case of Russia being hundreds of times bigger than Scotland and being not that far away i doubt they would continue to be anti russian.

    I dont want the T-80 thread to be taken over by this not fair on the author.


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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:15 am

    hi garry whats the general view of the upgraded T-72 in terms to western modern systems, as some people have on other forums that its still an old tank and that modern western stuff would still easily destroy them,

    The use of the term 'easily' shows ignorance. Several models of T-72 had very heavy armour... they weren't called super dolly partons for nothing.

    Adding new ERA along will likely make them invulnerable to most western main gun ammo... does someone still think they are easy to defeat?

    The fact of the matter is that the purpose of the upgrade is largely to deal with communication and control as well as the ability to use new longer ammo and the addition of new night and all weather optics.

    With these upgrades the only advantage the T-80s had was power to weight ratio, which is pretty good anyway on the T-72s because they are not very heavy.

    I argued the fact it was cheaper to upgrade T-72's than to buy newer tanks, and that the upgrades brought them upto a decent standard of a modern tank capability.

    With new battle management hardware and software the upgraded vehicles can now practise net centric operations and with the new thermals they will be able to see through smoke and dust and train at night and in bad weather.

    Within the next ten years they will move to a next generation of system that will include tanks with the armour of a BMP or less, but also the armata MBT with much better armour.

    its makes sense to buy a fully upgraded T-72 than a T-90, of course a T-90 is better but we all cant have the best equipment when a budget has to be considered.

    A difficult question.

    The upgraded T-90 would certainly be more expensive, but it would also be better protected so even with a limited budget I would still save up for a fleet of all T-90s unless you want thousands of tanks.

    Certainly a mixed fleet of upgraded T-72s and T-90s might make sense in the short term... perhaps take some T-80s with a Black Eagle upgrade to begin with and then when they are worn out buy some T-90s (by then they will be cheaper and likely more capable).
    (and got the thread back on topic).

    A way to invest in the Ukraine would be to get the Russians to apply their black eagle autoloader upgrade to their T-80s and then put a new Ukrainian diesel engine in them to reduce operational costs.

    A change of calibre to 120mm would keep NATO compatibility too.


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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:12 am

    Why not buy from the Ukrainians a few T-84 yatagan tanks? They have NATO compatible 120mm guns that are longer and I doubt with their current economic situation Kharkov would sell them for a very high price.

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:03 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Why not buy from the Ukrainians a few T-84 yatagan tanks? They have NATO compatible 120mm guns that are longer and I doubt with their current economic situation Kharkov would sell them for a very high price.


    buying from Ukraine is also a good idea and the t-84 are decent tanks and like u said will no doubt be cheap.

    I am visiting Ukraine in May, going with a few friends, one of them has a friend in the chernobyl ministry so were getting a tour of chernobyl (ive already been once already) but this time getting to see things tourists dont get to see, we are also staying in the zone at the ministry for 3 nights (something tourists cant do) ive also arrange some weapons to shoot (as i do in all my holidays) list of russian weapons i will be firing are: AK-47, Mosin Nagant revolver and rifle, Dragunov, and Ukrainian Fort pistol, and a few other weapons from various countries. Unable to do RPG shooting with the Ukrainian army due the current situation Sad


    Last edited by d_taddei2 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:25 pm

    Wouldn't they just get Challangers from the UK?

    Or some other used Euro tank, forget about Ukraine lol.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:15 am

    buying from Ukraine is also a good idea and the t-84 are decent tanks and like u said will no doubt be cheap.

    If you want quality you wont be getting it legally if it is cheap... if you could then the Ukrainian Army would have them and they don't because they are not cheap.

    If Scotland were to buy a large batch of several thousand they might take the loss of selling a dozen cheap to seal the deal but the rest will not be cheap and they will try to make as much money as they can... because no one else seems to be buying...


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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  medo on Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:58 pm

    Challenger 2 have rifled gun and with that special ammo, so if Scots want to be in NATO standard with 120 mm gun, but independent, it would be better to go with Leclerc or Leopard 2, because they are fully French or fully German without foreign parts in it. But they are expensive. But whatever Scotland buy from the West will be used, because in the West no new tanks were produced for more than a decade. From Russia they could buy new T-90 or wait for Armata, if they will be available with 120 mm NATO standard gun, but I doubt T-80 could be a good idea, because spare parts will be dependent on Ukraine.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:03 pm

    TR1 wrote:Wouldn't they just get Challangers from the UK?

    Or some other used Euro tank, forget about Ukraine lol.
    Why do you always hate on the Kharkov designs?

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:52 pm

    TR1 wrote:Wouldn't they just get Challangers from the UK?

    Or some other used Euro tank, forget about Ukraine lol.

    well you would think that Scotland would get its share of the UK's challenger 2, but its can't be certain that the rest of the UK might say no or fallout over who gets what, and the Chobham armour is a state secret and they may make it awkward for them to have it, so it may be given a money settlement instead, which means they will have to look for tanks to purchase, and a newly independent country may want to try and save some money and go for something alittle cheaper than Leopard 2 any other euro tank. Upgraded T-72's would maybe be better for a defence force.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  TR1 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:18 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Wouldn't they just get Challangers from the UK?

    Or some other used Euro tank, forget about Ukraine lol.
    Why do you always hate on the Kharkov designs?

    Who said I hate on Kharkov designs?

    The fact remains:

    1.) They can barely build tanks today due to the unfortunate circumstances they found themselves in post 1991
    2.) The Yagatan does not confirm to modern standards without necessary modification: its not even a serial tank, kind of like T-90MS.
    3.) You seriously think if Scotland was looking for tanks they would look @ Ukraine? Get real.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  a89 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:04 pm

    I read in a Russian forum that all T-80s were stored at the end of 2013. Can anyone confirm? I also saw photos of T-80UE-1, taken on January 2014. The rush to retire T-80s does not make much sense, especially the ones with modern sights (thermal camera).

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:18 pm

    Why not just give some T-80s to pridnestrovie and and east ukrainian militias to support their fight for independence from this right wing western POS?

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:32 pm

    Can anyone tell.. which tank is this one.. ?




    Apparently those are night exercises of Russian army in relation to Ukraine near their borders at the end of the video shows
    a Dark green tank with advanced ERA and at 1:14  you can see some kind of turret ,wondering if that part
    of the active protection system Arena...  anyone know?

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  runaway on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:55 pm

    Vann7 wrote:Can anyone tell.. which tank is this one.. ?


    Apparently those are night exercises of Russian army in relation to Ukraine near their borders at the end of the video shows
    a Dark green tank with advanced ERA and at 1:14  you can see some kind of turret ,wondering if that part
    of the active protection system Arena...  anyone know?

    Thats a T-72B3 with Relikt armor and Arena APS.


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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:33 pm

    Is that a IR search light infront of the balistic shield for the gunner?

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Asf on Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:51 pm

    Does T72B3 have Arena? Strange, never heard of it.

    And I can't recognise an antenna right behind the gunner's shield


    Is that a IR search light infront of the balistic shield for the gunner?

    Strange place to put an IR search light. Does T72B3 need an IR searchlight at all? It's equipped with thermal sights.

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