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    The T-80s future in the Russian Army

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    TR1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  TR1 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:11 am

    http://s6.uploads.ru/QFBP3.jpg

    Some T-80BVs in service got repaired with GTD-1250 engines. Imagine that weight-HP ratio!

    It's too bad MOD apparently stopped any serious T-80 upgrading.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:36 am

    TR1 wrote:http://s6.uploads.ru/QFBP3.jpg

    Some T-80BVs in service got repaired with GTD-1250 engines. Imagine that weight-HP ratio!

    It's too bad MOD apparently stopped any serious T-80 upgrading.
    Russia should exchange as many of its T-80s as possible for the Ukraine's T-72s. If we focus on the ones in good condition then several hundred tanks can be exchanged.
    It makes more sense that way because the Ukraine is more focused on the T-80s and their modernisation anyway; while Russia is more focused on the T-72s.
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    TR1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  TR1 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:17 am

    What's the point?

    We got way more T-72s than we actively operate anyways, and Ukraine does not have that many T-72Bs left. Russia has more newer, better stored ones available for upgrade.
    Ukraine is focusing on upgrading the T-64 Bulat right now, they don't operate many T-80s and don't really have the funds to operate them either.

    Now I see the logic behind Russia getting rid of the T-80 once service hours run out, but on the other hand if they were able to put GTD-1250 on them without a problem, it couldn't be terribly expensive to re-cap and modestly upgrade them. I guess we need to wait to see how Armata turns out.
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    medo

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  medo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:23 am

    I think Russia retire their T-80 fleet mostly because they close tank factory in Omsk, which produce T-80 tanks.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:31 am

    TR1 wrote:What's the point?
    There isn't one really. It's just exchanging one type of surplus tank that we don't need, for another type of surplus tank that we don't need a little less.

    But alas you're right that's it's probably not worth the trouble.

    Now I see the logic behind Russia getting rid of the T-80 once service hours run out, but on the other hand if they were able to put GTD-1250 on them without a problem, it couldn't be terribly expensive to re-cap and modestly upgrade them. I guess we need to wait to see how Armata turns out.
    The problem with the T-80 is its autoloader; with the vertically stacked propellent charges and everything. Basically - the T-80 would be excellent if not for this; but the problem is that it's only possible to replace the autoloader via an extensive upgrade. Something like the T-84 Oplot-M I guess; only as an upgrade of the T-80U and not the T-80UD.

    Naturally, this is all far more expensive than simply upgrading existing T-72s with new instruments, optics and reactive armour.

    It would be more on the level of the T-90MS; only as an upgrade for existing tanks, and not a new build. Which is the sort of thing that the Russian military already rejected when it came to the T-72 Rogatka.
    The upgrades are expensive, but the tanks won't last all that much longer as they've been around for decades already. Therefore the cost vs benefit just isn't there.

    What might be good though is for some kind of new JV between Russia and the Ukraine, for upgrading Russia's and the Ukraine's stocks of T-80s with a new autoloader and other enhancements (not quite to the level of the T-84s though); and then exporting them to third countries. Would be better than any upgraded T-72s, and cheaper than a T-90.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:07 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    flamming_python

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:34 am

    medo wrote:I think Russia retire their T-80 fleet mostly because they close tank factory in Omsk, which produce T-80 tanks.
    It's not closed, it just doesn't produce T-80s anymore. It still services them though and produces some stuff based on their chassis.
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    TR1

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    T-80 Production

    Post  TR1 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:43 am

    medo wrote:I think Russia retire their T-80 fleet mostly because they close tank factory in Omsk, which produce T-80 tanks.
    They can still repair T-80s just fine, they were doing so until recently. The decision is mostly based on operating costs and unifying of tank fleet.
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    George1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:42 pm

    T-80s could be a cheap offer to some poor countries. Ex soviet countries, Africa, vietnam, north korea etc
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    TR1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  TR1 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:32 pm

    T-80 is pretty far away from cheap in any sense of the word.

    Russia has so many T-72s laying around, they would make much more sense for a financially-conservative customer.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:18 pm

    Sorry if this bit off topic.. but I noticed this thing in MP.net..someone saying that T-72 engine took 2 days for replacing engine while Leo-2 took only 30 minutes.

    Is that for real ?

    Honestly i found it rather unbelieveable.
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    Regular

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Regular on Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:35 pm

    T-72 engine takes about 2 hours to replace, if I recall correctly. Leo-2 engine is really fast to replace, but not so good at field repairs when You only need to fix minor things.
    T-72 is not the most troublesome tank when it comes to repairs, I believe T-80 were a pain in the arse.
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    GarryB

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:49 pm

    @Stealthflanker who on mpnet was saying this?

    If it was Jippo then I would believe him as he was in a T-72 for some time, but if it was someone else find out if it was something they read somewhere.

    Also find out whose tank it was... the jet engines for an Su-30 would take months to overhaul if it was a New Zealand Flanker because we would have to remove it and ship it back to Russia for an overhaul. In Russia it would not take that long.

    BTW I have read that the gas turbine of the T-80 is a relatively simple thing to maintain but that its high fuel and oil costs make it expensive to run.


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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:@Stealthflanker who on mpnet was saying this?

    If it was Jippo then I would believe him as he was in a T-72 for some time, but if it was someone else find out if it was something they read somewhere.

    see it yourself.
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?232671-Poland-purchase-119-Leopard-2-tanks-from-Germany&p=6932908&viewfull=1#post6932908
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    TR1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  TR1 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:34 am

    Yeah he is full of crap.

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    GarryB

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:43 am

    It must be true... he probably saw it on a Discovery Channel documentary about Abrams tanks... Rolling Eyes 


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    collegeboy16

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  collegeboy16 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:40 pm

    BS... if the T-72 engine took 2 days to replace there wouldnt have been any T-72. Also, the engine is a derivative of WW2 T-34 engine, cant get any more robust than that. Its also not humongous, and you could go and strip engine and replace individual parts imo much easier since its not a single block lumped w/ transmission, cooling etc.
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    George1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:52 am

    question: All T-80 have withdrawn from service and put in storage??

    http://warfare.be/db/catid/244/linkid/1776/title/t-80-mbt
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    TR1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:37 pm

    George1 wrote:question: All T-80 have withdrawn from service and put in storage??

    http://warfare.be/db/catid/244/linkid/1776/title/t-80-mbt

    Absolutely not, but if the recent T-72 kapremont numbers are to be believed, then they are rushing to take T-72s out of reserves, and replace T-80s with them.

    If this keeps up within a year or two the T-80 could be completely gone.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  a89 on Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:13 am

    T-80s are supposed to be retired by 2015. A shame in my opinion, as there is a large fleet available that could easily be modernized. 1A33 FCS is quite decent and only needs a thermal sight. OTOH T-72 needs an entire FCS.

    http://www.military-informant.com/index.php/army/3585-1.html
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    runaway

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  runaway on Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:58 pm

    12.2013 All T-80 were withdrawn from service. (MoD)
    In December 2013, the Russian Ground Forces withdrew the entire T-80 fleet from service due to maintenance expenses, with all 4,500 now in storage.

    The 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division has for example been rearmed from T-80 to T-90. As for the 4th Guards Kantemirovskaya Tank Division, iam not sure.

    Not so hard to belive, it would be wise to put T-80 in storage, and it should stay there as reserve. As modernized T-72´s is a better tank with common parts with T-90.
    The russian army has roughly 2500-3000 active tanks, and T-55, T-62, T-64, T-80 is being taken out of service for service life, ease of maintenence and logistics.

    As for export, no chance, customers will chose T-72 or T-90 instead.

    In 2008, the 58th Army and peace keepers in  South Ossetia had T-90, T-72 and T-62 no T-80 what i have read, bad reputation from chechnya i guess.

    "The T-80 performed so poorly that General-Lieutenant A. Galkin, the head of the Armor Directorate, convinced the Minister of Defence after the conflict to never again procure tanks with gas-turbine engines"
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    George1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:13 pm

    runaway wrote:12.2013 All T-80 were withdrawn from service. (MoD)
    In December 2013, the Russian Ground Forces withdrew the entire T-80 fleet from service due to maintenance expenses, with all 4,500 now in storage.

    The 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division has for example been rearmed from T-80 to T-90. As for the 4th Guards Kantemirovskaya Tank Division, iam not sure.

    Not so hard to belive, it would be wise to put T-80 in storage, and it should stay there as reserve. As modernized T-72´s is a better tank with common parts with T-90.
    The russian army has roughly 2500-3000 active tanks, and T-55, T-62, T-64, T-80 is being taken out of service for service life, ease of maintenence and logistics.

    As for export, no chance, customers will chose T-72 or T-90 instead.

    In 2008, the 58th Army and peace keepers in  South Ossetia had T-90, T-72 and T-62 no T-80 what i have read, bad reputation from chechnya i guess.

    "The T-80 performed so poorly that General-Lieutenant A. Galkin, the head of the Armor Directorate, convinced the Minister of Defence after the conflict to never again procure tanks with gas-turbine engines"

    i thought T-90 deliveries had been stopped
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    runaway

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  runaway on Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:08 pm

    George1 wrote:
    i thought T-90 deliveries had been stopped

    Right, no new orders from russian ministry of defence as of 2011. But existing orders fulfilled, do not know how big.
    However, in october 2013 the 20th Armored guards brigade was rearmed with 150 T-72B3.
    Seems like modernezing T-72 up to B3 standard is preferred over old T-80´s.

    "
    One military unit of the Russian army of the Western Military District, deployed in the Nizhny Novgorod region has taken delivery of new modernized main battle tank T-72B3. The first crews have completed their training on this new version based of the Russian made main battle tank T-72.

    In the near future new T-72B3 will be commissioned and assigned to the crews. In the first half of this year, the staff of the brigade was trained on this new main battle tank.

    In total, the 20th Armoured Guards Brigade of the Russian army, located in the Nizhny Novgorod region, will receive more than 150 main battle tanks T-72B3.

    The T-72B3 is equipped with the latest technology including a new fire control system and digital ballistic computer enable the crew to reduce the time of firing calculations and improve the accuracy of the 125mm gun. The T-72B3 is also fitted with a new thermal sight which provides combat capabilities during night and day in all weather conditions."




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    d_taddei2

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    reply

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:19 am

    They could always use them into something into like the BMPT. A real shame the BMPT has been produce in numbers would be ideal in Chechnaya and Syria.

    Does anyone know what happened to Russia's T-62/T-64's scrapped????

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    TR1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:22 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:They could always use them into something into like the BMPT. A real shame the BMPT has been produce in numbers would be ideal in Chechnaya and Syria.

    Does anyone know what happened to Russia's T-62/T-64's scrapped????


    Some of them were stored to this day in pretty good condition, but aside from small numbers sold, they are basically either rotting away or being cut up.

    http://www.yaplakal.com/forum2/topic426273.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:13 am

    They could always use them into something into like the BMPT. A real shame the BMPT has been produce in numbers would be ideal in Chechnaya and Syria.

    The problem is like the T-80 is an AR and the T-72/90 is an AK.

    They both do the same jobs but use largely incompatible parts and systems... it doesn't make sense to keep the T-80 when there are plenty of existing T-72s to do the job... even if they do need minor upgrades.

    Most have gas guzzling gas turbine engines which would make them more expensive to operate, and with new diesel engines on the way with almost the same power it is best to let them sit in storage.

    Eventually they will be replaced in storage by upgraded T-72s when new vehicles replace them and they can either be scrapped or handed to allies or used as targets for weapons development or just target practise at exercise and shooting ranges (with all the salvageable bits removed first of course...).

    All the western claims about the T-72 being a death trap... they don't actually apply to a T-72 as much as they apply to the T-80 and T-64.

    The arrangement of combustible propellent stubs in the turret makes any armour penetration potentially catastrophic as sparks and burning metal and other material will fall to the floor of the turret where all the vehicles propellent stubs are located exposed and highly vulnerable.


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