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    The T-80s future in the Russian Army

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    franco

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  franco on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:07 am

    miketheterrible wrote:The plan is also for T-90M tanks.

    And I don't see anywhere where they card T-80U modern. To Russian MoD, modern requires thermal imagers. Something T-80U lacks as it still has it's IR Torchlight.

    There are only two units using the T-80U and they are the 2 tank regiments of the 4th Tank Division so that means 188 operational tanks plus a few spares and training units. I too was surprised by them considering it modern, however I guess in relationship to the -70B it would make sense.
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    GarryB

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:24 am

    I suspect the real reason they are keeping the T-80s in service is because they are already paid for, so apart from minor upgrades to keep them effective and make them more like the T-90 series they don't cost much...
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    runaway

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  runaway on Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:38 am

    Peŕrier wrote:Yes, I too agree, for what it is worth, that if some specific requirement perfectly suited for T-80s exists, than it is reasonable to upgrade them.

    I found strange that they have such an advantage on arctic climate, just because their gas turbine.

    It is decades the in the Arctic and Antarctic regions gasoline and diesel powered vehicles, both tracked and wheeled, operate even during the worst seasons with temperatures falling as low as minus 50.

    It would be impossible to just adapt a T-72 engine to operate in such conditions.

    It is not coming out of hatred against T-80, it is only because the T-72 family has already turned into the mainstay of russian army, and I do not see why to update a model with little operating base instead of the one being the core of armoured forces.

    I found this about the gas turbine engine of the T80:
    The T-80BVM retains its GTD-1250TF gas turbine engine, developing 1 250 hp. Basically it is a helicopter powerplant, modified for use on tanks. Advantages of such engine are its compact dimensions, high power output and ability to start when the temperature is as low as -40°C. Due to this feature the T-80 series tanks can be used in Northern areas of Russia. Also the T-80 series tanks are much faster than the T-64, T-72 and T-90 series tanks with diesel engines, and have superior cross-country performance. However its gas turbine engine has a number of drawbacks. Most notable is a high fuel consumption. It can consume up to 750 liters of fuel for 100 km driven. Other drawbacks are troublesome maintenance and high unit price. The T-80BVM is also fitted with auxiliary power unit, powering all systems, when the main engine is turned off.

    Although i fail to see the arctic as a hotspot to such a degree that you need to keep an old reserve vehicle updated and throw rubles on them.
    The idea to have 4! main battle tanks models operational is simply mind blowing and in no way netiher financial or logistical good.



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    GarryB

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:03 am

    First they already have the tanks, so it is not like they are building a whole new tank design for a region to operate.


    Second... there are not many things they need to defend in the arctic so they wont need to drive them hundreds of kms much anyway.

    Third, everything in the arctic is high maintainence, simply because of the brutal weather conditions... plastics and synthetics don't last very long at all...

    And fourth... when Armata and Kurganets and Boomerang and Typhoon brigades are operational they will have four new gun platforms that could be called tanks (Heavy, medium, medium and light) in addition to the upgraded T-72s, the upgraded T-90s, the upgraded T-80s, and the Sprut light tanks... that means 8 tanks...

    Attrition and use will get rid of the older models, which can be replaced by newer models... perhaps in time an electric powered Armata family of vehicles could lead to the return of gas turbines for arctic use...

    At least they have removed the T-34s, T-54s, T-55s, T-62s, and T-64s from the inventory... at least the new vehicles share guns and ammo types...

    With NATO being all aggressive and gay, why wouldn't they hang on to older stuff that still works if used correctly. Further upgrades based on new technology created for the new generation of vehicles can keep older models viable... the reserves that will use them will actually be more familiar with them anyway.
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    runaway

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  runaway on Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:20 am

    "The T-80U came into service in 1985, and it's an advanced version of the T-80, which was introduced in 1976. The T-80U has a 9M119 Refleks anti-tank guided missile system, which can be fired from its 125mm cannon. Russia currently has 450 in active service and 3000 in reserve, Tack said"

    They also have some 2000 T-72 in active service and some 7000 in reserve, not to mention thousands of T-55, T-62, T64. So it makes little sense to keep the T-80 in service with all its shortcomings when they have 7000 T-72´s.

    They really should store them all, and begin scrapping of the T-64. Refurbished T-55,T-62 and T-72 should be pretty hot on the export market for 3rd world countries while the T-80 is not. South Korea have stopped using their T-80´s for their high maintenence cost and thirsty turbine engine...








    Makarov420

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Makarov420 on Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:30 pm

    https://southfront.org/russia-to-upgrade-t-80-tank-with-pnm-sosna-u-and-relic/

    The T-80 is getting night binocular viewer TVN-5.Also upgraded monoblocks with a gas-turbine engine will increase its fuel efficiency! it looks like they have negated or at least half way sovled the 1250 gtd engine problem and worked out some of the problems with it.That plus the new PNM Sosna-U gunner sight with relikt ERA will make it a formidable tank . Since this is a upgrade and not a new tank. it tells me that need a lot of modern tanks fast and expect something may happen soon on the border maybe. Omsktransmash will be producing the tank upgrades. not nizny tagil! so there is a economic reason to keep factory workers going and paid . Also lets look at the similar parts of the T-72 and T-90 . both vehicles share the same type of wheels for the tank treads and some other parts . The T-80 shares the same type of wheel that the T-14 armata uses. So the armata program might also be part of the reason why it is now economical to produce and upgrade the T-80 tanks.
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    runaway

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  runaway on Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:10 am

    Makarov420 wrote:https://southfront.org/russia-to-upgrade-t-80-tank-with-pnm-sosna-u-and-relic/

    The T-80 is getting night binocular viewer TVN-5.Also upgraded monoblocks with a gas-turbine engine will increase its fuel efficiency! it looks like they have negated or at least half way sovled the 1250 gtd engine problem and worked out some of the problems with it.That plus the new PNM Sosna-U gunner sight with relikt ERA will make it a formidable tank . Since this is a upgrade and not a new tank. it tells me that need a lot of modern tanks fast and expect something may happen soon on the border maybe. Omsktransmash will be producing the tank upgrades. not nizny tagil! so there is a economic reason to keep factory workers going and paid . Also lets look at the similar parts of the T-72 and T-90 . both vehicles share the same type of wheels for the tank treads and some other parts . The T-80 shares the same type of wheel that the T-14 armata uses. So the armata program might also be part of the reason why it is now economical to produce and upgrade the T-80 tanks.

    Actually, it makes sense to keep the T-80´s in working order since i guess it has to do with the war in donbass.
    Many of the "pro russian separatists" tanks are T-80´s and for them to keep working and stay combat worthy they need help from russia. So to stick my chin out, the Omsk plant maybe will be busy with overhauling T-80´s, but they are not meant for the russian army...

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    George1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  George1 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:01 am

    Photo-shoot of the modernized tank T-80BVM





















    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3159376.html
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    0nillie0

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  0nillie0 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:05 pm

    Anybody here can explain picture below? What sight is located at the question marks on the right side?



    I am guessing that for the upgrade they move the 1G42 or 1G46 primary sights to this new location, as it would otherwise be blocked by the ERA.
    Al tough the picture on the left is from T-80U, perhaps only T-80BV tanks will be upgraded? At any rate, it should be the same principle for the sight.

    Also, T-80BVM uses Sosna-U, which has a channel for missile guidance. In T-80's with capability to launch Reflex, 1G43 sighting system is used for guidance.
    I am guessing this is now taken over by Sosna-U, leaving the 1G46 as backup or long range day sight (assuming the ???? sight is infact relocated 1G46).

    In case the upgrade only is for T-80B / T-80BV, which fire Kobra ATGM. But then where is the transmitter for radio controls?

    Thanks in advance.


    Last edited by 0nillie0 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:17 pm

    0nillie0 wrote:Anybody here can explain picture below? What sight is located at the question marks on the right side?



    I am guessing that for the upgrade they move the 1G42 or 1G46 primary sights to this new location, as it would otherwise be blocked by the ERA.
    Al tough the picture on the left is from T-80U, perhaps only T-80BV tanks will be upgraded? At any rate, it should be the same principle for the sight.

    Also, T-80BVM uses Sosna-U, which has a channel for missile guidance. In T-80's with capability to launch Reflex, 1G43 sighting system is used for guidance.
    I am guessing this is now taken over by Sosna-U, leaving the 1G46 as backup or long range day sight (assuming the ???? sight is infact relocated 1G46).

    In case the upgrade only is for T-80B / T-80BV, which fire Kobra ATGM. But then where is the transmitter for radio controls?

    Thanks in advance.

    Aparrently it is a new backup sight.
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    Interlinked

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Interlinked on Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:13 am

    1G42 is deleted from old T-80B/BV and Sosna-U becomes the primary sight. The housing for the 1G42 is deleted and a new PDT backup sight with digital video feed is installed.

    BTW this photo is a Photoshop:

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/andrei_bt/18425682/922661/922661_original.jpg

    Original is this:

    https://pp.userapi.com/c824701/v824701627/10aeb7/r9s4t9R_3CA.jpg
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    0nillie0

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  0nillie0 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:47 am

    Yeah i already noticed that ERA was photoshopped, and poorly at that. But for the purpose of my question it doesnt really make a difference.

    Thank you guys for the info as always!
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:17 pm

    Note how the ERA covers the gun breach and not the crew very interesting design choice.
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    Interlinked

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Interlinked on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:20 pm

    Russian military products are full of "interesting choices"...
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:52 pm

    Well atleast thier equipment mostly well designed and optimised even if it does have the ocaisional stupid design element.

    The ERA is placed wehere a jevelin is most likely to hit and APFSDS round hitting the turret roof are not too much of a concern as there is not really that much to hit in the section of the tank that the roof covers...

    Well aside form the commanders head that is but thats a small target just like the drivers port.


    If you think about it though the Abrams UFP is by far a worse weakspot as it has no composite armor and is right at the center of mass not to mention how the lower mantlet does not cover the gap in the turret fronts armor and the turret ring is mounted on a rased section of the UFP.

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    Interlinked

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Interlinked on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:59 pm

    Well designed and optimized? Despite being a primary sight, Sosna-U is still installed in the auxiliary sight/night sight position instead of directly in front of the gunner. In front of the gunner is the daylight-only backup sight which doesn't have a purpose on a day-to-day basis. That's bad ergonomic design. And of course the infamous AA gun installation on the commander's cupola still isn't fixed. It still weighs 90+ kgs and takes an unacceptable amount of effort from the commander to make it turn. That's also bad design. There are many, many things like this that make you go "wtf were they thinking"..
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    George1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  George1 on Sun May 06, 2018 1:47 am

    Modernized tanks T-80BV of Marine Corps of the Northern Fleet

    According to the resource "Military Intelligence Agent" in the social network "VKontakte", during the rehearsal of the military Victory Parade in Murmansk on May 4, 2018, the modernized tanks T-80BV, equipped with the multi-channel gunner's sight Sosna-U and built-in dynamic defense "Relikt".

    On the bmpd side, we will point out that, presumably, these tanks are freshly formed as part of 61st independent Kirkenesskaya Red Banner Naval Infantry Brigade's separate tank company (with a staff of 10 vehicles) which were modernized in 2017 to JSC "OmskTransMash" (which is a part of JSC "NPK" Uralvagonzavod ").

    These upgraded tanks do not seem to belong to the T-80BVM version, which should be modernized by the contract concluded with Uralvagonzavod NPC on August 24, 2017 with the Russian Defense Ministry for the modernization of 62 T-80B tanks to the level of T-80BVM (with delivery of 31 units in 2018 and 2019). The most characteristic external difference of the modernized T-80BV tanks demonstrated in Murmansk from the known T-80BVM prototypes is the lack of additional protection for the sides and stern of the hull. The refusal of additional protection of the sides and sterns on the tanks of the Marine Corps is conscientious because of the possible weight and dimensional limitations imposed by the requirements for the operation of tanks in the marines.

    Recall that in the annual report for 2016 JSC "Special Design Bureau of Instrument Engineering and Automation" (SKB PA, Kovrov, Vladimir region), specializing in the development of weapon stabilizers, special automatic control systems, navigation and gyroscopic systems, electric drives and hydraulic drives, reported development of design documentation for the stabilizer of armament for the modernization of the T-80BV tank with the Sosna-U PnM on the technical requirements of OmskTransMash JSC in the interests of the Ministry of Defense s Russia, and on the production of two prototypes. The report said that in 2017, according to the state defense order of JSC "OmskTransMash", it was planned to modernize 10 T-80BV units (presumably, the description of the T-80BV upgrade option with the Sosna-U PnM).

    In Naval Infantry brigades of the Russian Navy, formations of separate tank companies equipped with T-80BV tanks have already been reported.





    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3187758.html
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    George1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  George1 on Thu May 31, 2018 1:09 am

    The tank battalion of the 200th Separate Motor Rifle Brigade is rearmed with T-80BVM tanks



    https://altyn73.livejournal.com/1331550.html

    The 200th Separate Motor Rifle Brigade is a military formation of the Northern Fleet based at Pechenga in Murmansk Oblast. The brigade is one of the two Russian Arctic warfare brigades.

    According to article:

    First of all, T-80BVM perfectly suited to the climatic conditions of the Arctic.
    In them even the crews feel much more comfortable.

    At the expense of new devices, the level of protection, survivability and combat effectiveness are increased. The new gas turbine engine, to a certain extent, improves the driving performance and mobility of the machine on all types of terrain.
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    George1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:08 am

    How Russia’s T-80 tanks are assembled for the icy Arctic

    Thursday. It’s a snowy freezing morning in the village of Strelna, 30 km from St. Petersburg. Hundreds of people are slowly shuffling from the train station and nearby houses to the 61st workshop of the armored tank repair factory, where they will assemble the new batch of T-80s. These battle machines will eventually be sent to the coldest regions of the country.

    https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tech/327915-how-russias-t-80-tanks-are-assembled-for-arctic
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:12 pm

    I would say keeping T-72 in storage is probably a better idea than T-80. The T-72 upgrades make the tank useful and good. Problem with the T-80 for export sales is the engine if they put a diesel engine in it and the price was good they could sell it. Egypt and Iraq could be good contenders for buying if they were to move away from USA abrams and/or replace older tanks with it this could clear a sizeable chunk of T-80 in storage. As for syria and Yemen when in a position to do so (not foreseeable future) would likely buy up some T-72 upgraded. Apart from them o don't see any other market really.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:35 pm

    George1 wrote:How Russia’s T-80 tanks are assembled for the icy Arctic

    Thursday. It’s a snowy freezing morning in the village of Strelna, 30 km from St. Petersburg. Hundreds of people are slowly shuffling from the train station and nearby houses to the 61st workshop of the armored tank repair factory, where they will assemble the new batch of T-80s. These battle machines will eventually be sent to the coldest regions of the country.

    https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tech/327915-how-russias-t-80-tanks-are-assembled-for-arctic

    Overhauled, not assembled
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:36 pm

    I see these models keep the IR searchlight. None of these models shown have thermal imagers? I know the BVM ordered have it.
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    eehnie

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  eehnie on Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:22 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:I would say keeping T-72 in storage is probably a better idea than T-80. The T-72 upgrades make the tank useful and good. Problem with the T-80 for export sales is the engine if they put a diesel engine in it and the price was good they could sell it. Egypt and Iraq could be good contenders for buying if they were to move away from USA abrams and/or replace older tanks with it this could clear a sizeable chunk of T-80 in storage. As for syria and Yemen when in a position to do so (not foreseeable future) would likely buy up some T-72 upgraded. Apart from them o don't see any other market really.

    There is not problem about keeping both at this point.

    Nothing makes the ZU-23(-2) or the (M)T-12 better to keep than the T-80.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:27 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:I would say keeping T-72 in storage is probably a better idea than T-80. The T-72 upgrades make the tank useful and good. Problem with the T-80 for export sales is the engine if they put a diesel engine in it and the price was good they could sell it. Egypt and Iraq could be good contenders for buying if they were to move away from USA abrams and/or replace older tanks with it this could clear a sizeable chunk of T-80 in storage. As for syria and Yemen when in a position to do so (not foreseeable future) would likely buy up some T-72 upgraded. Apart from them o don't see any other market really.

    There is not problem about keeping both at this point.

    Nothing makes the ZU-23(-2) or the (M)T-12 better to keep than the T-80.


    Wrong thread eehnie as neither two have nothing to do with T-80. You are very confused eehnie. But what I will say is zu-23-2 is much better to keep than T-80 you have to look at its uses and number of customers using it vs number of export customers using T-80. Even the Russians are removing the T-80 from front line service in favour of T-72. But u won't accept that especially with ur condition.
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    GarryB

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:42 pm

    Note how the ERA covers the gun breach and not the crew very interesting design choice.

    the angle of the photo is from above the turret... the area covered by the ERA on the roof is probably the internal space inside the turret... the area in front will be the turret front armour and will not have any open crew compartment under it to protect with ERA.

    Russian military products are full of "interesting choices"...

    Their design choices are usually quite sensible once you understand them...

    Well designed and optimized? Despite being a primary sight, Sosna-U is still installed in the auxiliary sight/night sight position instead of directly in front of the gunner. In front of the gunner is the daylight-only backup sight which doesn't have a purpose on a day-to-day basis. That's bad ergonomic design.

    You are assuming there was room for the main sight where the small auxiliary site is positioned... In terms I ergonomics I don't understand... are you suggesting that inside the tank the main sight is in the wrong place and is difficult to use?

    And of course the infamous AA gun installation on the commander's cupola still isn't fixed. It still weighs 90+ kgs and takes an unacceptable amount of effort from the commander to make it turn.

    You suggesting the commanders cupola is manually operated?

    I would say keeping T-72 in storage is probably a better idea than T-80. The T-72 upgrades make the tank useful and good. Problem with the T-80 for export sales is the engine if they put a diesel engine in it and the price was good they could sell it. Egypt and Iraq could be good contenders for buying if they were to move away from USA abrams and/or replace older tanks with it this could clear a sizeable chunk of T-80 in storage. As for syria and Yemen when in a position to do so (not foreseeable future) would likely buy up some T-72 upgraded. Apart from them o don't see any other market really.

    In arctic conditions (minus 20 degrees or colder) it takes about 40 minutes to start a standard diesel engine... including having to build a fire underneath it to warm it up so parts don't shatter. A gas turbine engine can be running in minutes.

    One of the upgrades for this tank is an APU, which means it can sit with electrics on ready to fight with the main engine off and burning only a fraction of fuel that the main engine burns when it is running.

    I see these models keep the IR searchlight. None of these models shown have thermal imagers? I know the BVM ordered have it.

    The SOSNA-U has a thermal camera... the T-80BVM only has an IR light on the commanders cupola...

    The T-80 was their premium tank for quite some time and is superior to T-72 in terms of armour.

    The new T-80BVM upgrade includes a new more powerful and more reliable engine so its cross country performance should be rather good... even if it probably burns about 700 litres of fuel per 100km... who cares... it is only fuel... if the enemy has diesel tanks then they wont be able to shut them down for any period even if they have APUs because it would take too long to restart them.

    Having an APU so when it is just sitting somewhere it can have the heater on and the electronics all working and ready for action... ready to fire... and perhaps a minute to start up the main engine and start moving... not using much fuel because the main engine is shut down.

    In comparison with a diesel engine and no APU you would actually use rather more fuel because you would need to keep the engine running all the time...

    In the arctic it makes sense...

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