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    The T-80s future in the Russian Army

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    OminousSpudd
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  OminousSpudd on Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:03 am

    Omsk was still very capable of overhauls for T-80s/T-80 chassis etc. last I heard... T-80 nostalgia is too damn strong, I want that thing to remain in service for years yet, just for its badass look.

    Welcome back btw, long time no see.

    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:08 pm

    Mike E wrote:There's really not a whole lot that can be done. Only so many of the T-80's Russia has are truly exportible, and a lot of its' support has dwindled. Keeping good condition models in storage and reserve makes sense until they can be scrapped or possibly sold off.

    The problem with the T-80, is logistics. It costs a lot of money to fuel and maintain, and the only countries that would want it, are countries that basically couldn't support it. In fact, those kind of countries are more interesting in the T-72/90.

    In any case, by 2025-2030, Russia's reserves will be made up of hundreds or thousands of T-72B3's, the 100 or so T-90's, and a few left over T-80UE's. Can't wait to see T-14 delivered.

    couldn't they just upgrade them like what the Ukranians did changing the engine to the 1,000-hp 6TD-1 6-cylinder multi-fuel two-stroke turbo-piston diesel engine, better fuel efficiency and probably cheaper to maintain than gas turbine. shouldn't cost too much to change this, could use and existing engine.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:23 pm

    Mike E wrote:There's really not a whole lot that can be done. Only so many of the T-80's Russia has are truly exportible, and a lot of its' support has dwindled. Keeping good condition models in storage and reserve makes sense until they can be scrapped or possibly sold off.

    The problem with the T-80, is logistics. It costs a lot of money to fuel and maintain, and the only countries that would want it, are countries that basically couldn't support it. In fact, those kind of countries are more interesting in the T-72/90.

    In any case, by 2025-2030, Russia's reserves will be made up of hundreds or thousands of T-72B3's, the 100 or so T-90's, and a few left over T-80UE's. Can't wait to see T-14 delivered.

    Little bit of hypocrisy?

    You have a problem when i mention bad logistics actually catastrophic logistics for Abrams gas turbine while you defend it and that Diesel would consume more which is ridiculous, yes even for the mentioned non arguments made by you about internal volume of Diesel Engine, which Leopard2 has and still has more range.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:15 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:

    couldn't they just upgrade them like what the Ukranians did changing the engine to the 1,000-hp 6TD-1 6-cylinder multi-fuel two-stroke turbo-piston diesel engine, better fuel efficiency and probably cheaper to maintain than gas turbine. shouldn't cost too much to change this, could use and existing engine.
    One major problem with that, Ukraine...and the 6TD family of engines has a problem with low torque characteristics, so it would slow the vehicles down considerably. And then, of course, it isn't free to replace the engine.

    Engine is just one part of the equation, FCS, autoloader etc would also need updating.

    I see Werewolf still hasn't gotten over himself

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:22 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:

    couldn't they just upgrade them like what the Ukranians did changing the engine to the 1,000-hp 6TD-1 6-cylinder multi-fuel two-stroke turbo-piston diesel engine, better fuel efficiency and probably cheaper to maintain than gas turbine. shouldn't cost too much to change this, could use and existing engine.
    One major problem with that, Ukraine...and the 6TD family of engines has a problem with low torque characteristics, so it would slow the vehicles down considerably. And then, of course, it isn't free to replace the engine.

    Engine is just one part of the equation, FCS, autoloader etc would also need updating.

    I see Werewolf still hasn't gotten over himself

    The problem is your hypocrisy and little room of accepting critics of your "thought" process.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:31 pm

    My "hypocrisy", or your "misquoting"? I never said a single thing that you claimed I did.

    M1 would have the same logistical problems, actually worse due to weight. There, you happy?

    Time to go dreaming about T-90's super armour Wink

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:42 pm

    Mike E wrote:My "hypocrisy", or your "misquoting"? I never said a single thing that you claimed I did.

    M1 would have the same logistical problems, actually worse due to weight. There, you happy?

    Time to go dreaming about T-90's super armour Wink



    Go to some magical places where T-90 armor is made of NERA, while the very definition and content of armor is bend to your will and imagination and not to reality. Not even T-72 had NERA in its glacis to such an extent to call the entire armor "NERA". 1/3rd is still the minority and is just used as a precursor to induce jaw and break the maximum penetration capability of penetrators such as HEAT before they hit the main segment of armor. You seem to go the path of TR1 after you gone full retard on AW forum with all that nonsense camps.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:01 pm

    Ironically enough, everything said in that comment is true. And guess what...no mention of logistics or fuel consumption!

    T-72B 1989 uses a NxRA based glacis, there's no question about that. Even the earlier Glacis w/o bulging sections could be called NxRA, because of the way metal sheets behave in such an arrangement.

    By your reasoning, the all mighty "main segment of armour" would be the HHS and RHA. This is fact for the T-72B, and probably true for the T-90 as well.

    I was the one that went full retard at AW? You might want to re-read our discussions there.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:40 pm

    Having less fuel, is about logistics and fuel consumption especially with your assertions and assumptions about GTD engines. Leopard 2 has more range despite your assumptions it would end up with less due more internal volume that has to be spared on Diesel Engine and therefore fuel cells have to be reduced, if Leopard 2 can achieve it so can Abrams, not to mention bad logistics come from weight aswell and DU in armor is bad for that aswell besides the archaic armor arrangement and turret layout itself.

    T-72B turret was NERA, the glacis was one single segment of NERA as a precursor to weaken the HEAT rounds before it hits the 2/3rd big main segment of spaced/composite armor. I do not need to be a tank developer nor a mathematician but to descripe that bullcrap like you do as "NxRA" armor just like the jew biased guy with "all russian tanks have only ERA" bullcrap. Get educated on how to describe properly armor and not become some such nonsense talker that completley downgrades to single term referes that purposely misinforms anyone reading like Damian the fanboy does so often when his Abramsz is in question.

    Don't wonder when people do not like that simplistic nonsense talk that missinforms people about stuff you barely know and project on modern tanks without knowledge of their composition of armor due state secrecy. I do not know it, you do not know it, but i at least do not claim to know what tank has what and throw it arround just like those people with numbers from game simulations.

    Mike E
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:59 pm

    I'm not talking about the Leopard 2, I'm talking about the Abrams; in which case, it is said to lose fuel capacity if it received the MTU 883. Not so hard to understand, is it?

    More efficient engine + less fuel capacity = no noticeable change in vehicle range.

    T-72B didn't use "NERA", it used NxRA in the hull and turret. NERA is a much thinner armour that operates on the same principle, and is typically numerous if in a composite like Burlington.

    NxRA is not a made up term either, though you'd clearly like it to be (to look smarter than you really are, of course).

    Keep on raging with your nonsense, Werewolf, it benefits no one.

    - I love how people still talk crap about TR1. He was one of the few people that talked sense on this forum until the very end.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:34 pm

    Mike E wrote:I'm not talking about the Leopard 2, I'm talking about the Abrams; in which case, it is said to lose fuel capacity if it received the MTU 883. Not so hard to understand, is it?

    More efficient engine + less fuel capacity = no noticeable change in vehicle range.

    T-72B didn't use "NERA", it used NxRA in the hull and turret. NERA is a much thinner armour that operates on the same principle, and is typically numerous if in a composite like Burlington.

    NxRA is not a made up term either, though you'd clearly like it to be (to look smarter than you really are, of course).

    Keep on raging with your nonsense, Werewolf, it benefits no one.

    - I love how people still talk crap about TR1. He was one of the few people that talked sense on this forum until the very end.

    More effecient engine + more effecient fuel even less will result in still better range.

    T-80 range 500km. T-80UD 560km with AFT.


    Never said NxRA is made up term, your twisting words. What i said is that you are one of the symplistic people that downgrades complex stuff to single terms that are misinformation to put it mildly.

    TuRk1 was useless for an entire year before he left, constantly put his oneliners to directly or indirectly attack users across the board and then shortly before he left he directly spew only poison and insulted everyone that did not aggree with him, called russia  a shithole and just trolled all the time. Non of his information was any credible especially his Twitter nonsense pictures that he constantly tried to label es "evidence".

    If you want to asslick someone without credibility and antirussian bias, which he has as a turk which can be read on keypub calling russian women whores, linking garbage western horseshit sites of dating sites and presenting it as cataloge to buy women, is certainly not something that a sane, or in your words "talked sense", would do.

    Mike E
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:35 pm

    I'm the one twisting words? Do you have any sense of what you have been saying for the past few posts? My gosh man, it's not even worth talking to you anymore, it really isn't.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:37 pm

    Mike E wrote:I'm the one twisting words? Do you have any sense of what you have been saying for the past few posts? My gosh man, it's not even worth talking to you anymore, it really isn't.

    When you get back to talking about thinks in more elaborated way instead of downgrading to simplicity which you so much like then we can go back on topic.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:11 pm

    Mike E wrote:

    - I love how people still talk crap about TR1. He was one of the few people that talked sense on this forum until the very end.

    Wink The feeling is mutual, he talks his fair share of smack about this website on keypub, btw if it's simply just a vendetta we (on this forum) have with TR1, then how do you explain how he got permanently banned on the now defunct MilitaryPhotos.net? I mean whats the likeliness that on two completely different military forums (ideologically speaking) the members on both sites wanted the same guy tar & feathered? Should a whole forum be paralyzed walking on egg-shells, for '1' member? BTW by the time TR1 left the forum even GarryB was mocking his posts... Razz

    OminousSpudd
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  OminousSpudd on Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:44 am

    For the love of...

    Guys, you both know your sh*t on different topics, agree to disagree and move on. It's far more valuable to have two members on this forum contributing their fair share, even if they occasionally contradict one another, than having just one. As a third-party I've learnt a bunch from both of you, and if anything is too vague I look it up and make my own conclusions.

    Chill homies.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:46 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:For the love of...

    Guys, you both know your sh*t on different topics, agree to disagree and move on. It's far more valuable to have two members on this forum contributing their fair share, even if they occasionally contradict one another, than having just one. As a third-party I've learnt a bunch from both of you, and if anything is too vague I look it up and make my own conclusions.

    Chill homies.

    It's all good, the forum occasionally needs good heated debate, we don't want the forum to devolve in to a echo-chamber. Very Happy

    cracker
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  cracker on Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:48 pm

    Ok it's probably the 1000th time it's asked... but, can someone make a clear picture of the T-80 right now in russian army, and maybe what will they become by 2020 or beyond?


    I kind of understood the modernised T-72B3 are basically replacing many T-80s in active service (what, already 800 T-72B3 completed so far, more or less?)





    various questions:

    -what is the total of T-80 production anyway? We can find roughly 5000 in many sources... is that correct? I've read only 500 were T-80UD, but i've never seen a number for T-80U, anyone knows? Actually i've heard only some 200-300 T-80U were made before the UD was preferred. Or maybe it's totally bogus and there are more T-80U than UD? It seems not realistic as we've never seen many T-80U in service in the russian army, they always seemed so rare... The early T-80 was basically a T-64A turret on a new chassis, and only ~200 were made, so that leaves us with a few thousands T-80B/BV as the main production.

    -Is it really done with T-80UD in service? i remember they were supposedly all scraped by 2013, and some turrets put onto T-80B to make the hybrid T-80UE1...

    -How many T-80s of all sorts are available to the russian military today? (not only those in active service, but total)... And, how many are in service, actively? I read everythere that T-80BVs are used in all sorts of training courses and tanker schools, but not really in any active unit... it's true?

    -T-80BV always seemed to be the best of the 3 tanks (T-64BV and T-72B, even though T-72A is more the contemporary, and T-72B the contemporary of T-80U)... I know the various reasons why russia prefers T-72B, but let's be objective and honest: isn't T-80B VASTLY more performant? Ok, it has a slightly worse base armor... but everything else is vastly superior, most notably the tactical mobility (including driver confort and ease of driving), the suspension, the FCS, the rate of fire, etc... And even the Kontakt-1 ERA coverage is better on T-80BV than T-72B.

    -Russia wants a full active force of T-72B3 and T-90A, maybe? (i keep T-90AM and T-14 aside on purpose), for economical and logistical reasons, and thus put all T-80s in reserve (note, reserve - not storage)... I hope they will keep at least 1500 T-80s total and at least maintain them in good condition...

    Honestly i think the fact they chose T-72 is sad... T-80 is a great tank. T-80BV with some updates (like T-72B3) would be a very good tank.


    Last edited by cracker on Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

    sepheronx
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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:51 pm

    T-80 has no other future than a reserve tank and or quick supplies to novorussia or other entities. Outside of that, its position in Russia as a frontline tank and upgrading path for future use is at an end.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  cracker on Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:00 pm

    sepheronx wrote:T-80 has no other future than a reserve tank and or quick supplies to novorussia or other entities. Outside of that, its position in Russia as a frontline tank and upgrading path for future use is at an end.

    It sounds so weird to send T-80s to "rebels", this tank which was the pride and manned by the elite divisions back then... kind of the secret tank... This is a job for old T-72s... but Russia seems to run out of "old T-72s", strangely enough... Sort of why you see T-72B3 sent in donbass instead of crappy older tanks

    I wanted to say syria could use T-80s, but then you have to see the fact that T-80 has a totally different engine and maintenance than T-72, and syria would be more hampered than helped by those tanks...

    Still, 500 T-80BVs in good condition would definitely help syria to push on various fronts and resist some ATGM hits frontally, instead of losing countless base model T-72, T-62 and T-55 in those armor pushes.



    What about a sort of T-90MS-like turret on the T-80BV or T-80U chassis? it would be an interesting tank

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  franco on Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:34 pm

    cracker wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:T-80 has no other future than a reserve tank and or quick supplies to novorussia or other entities. Outside of that, its position in Russia as a frontline tank and upgrading path for future use is at an end.

    It sounds so weird to send T-80s to "rebels", this tank which was the pride and manned by the elite divisions back then... kind of the secret tank... This is a job for old T-72s... but Russia seems to run out of "old T-72s", strangely enough... Sort of why you see T-72B3 sent in donbass instead of crappy older tanks

    I wanted to say syria could use T-80s, but then you have to see the fact that T-80 has a totally different engine and maintenance than T-72, and syria would be more hampered than helped by those tanks...

    Still, 500 T-80BVs in good condition would definitely help syria to push on various fronts and resist some ATGM hits frontally, instead of losing countless base model T-72, T-62 and T-55 in those armor pushes.



    What about a sort of T-90MS-like turret on the T-80BV or T-80U chassis? it would be an interesting tank

    My research suggests that there were at the most 400 T-80U's in the Russian Army after 1992 and only about 150 upgraded to T-80BV standard. Conventional wisdom is that less of these are still operational.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  cracker on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:12 am

    franco wrote:

    My research suggests that there were at the most 400 T-80U's in the Russian Army after 1992 and only about 150 upgraded to T-80BV standard. Conventional wisdom is that less of these are still operational.

    what? you must be mixing up something... How is it possible that a T-80U be "upgraded" into a T-80BV? Or you meant, only 150 T-80BV were made upon the roughly 4000 T-80B, for something littlerally done in a few hours in any workshop, something applied by the thousands (possibly tens of thds) on T-72A and B and T-64B? it's very weird... There can't possibly be only 150 T-80BV.

    Concerning T-80B/BV FCS and just internal systems in general (electronic, optic, stabiliser)... Is it identical to T-64B or is it improved in some ways? Both tanks are described as having the same FCS 1A33, something far more efficient and modern than anything mounted on the T-72, even the T-72B 1A40 doesn't compare well to the 1A33, and much less to the 1A45 of T-80U.


    Question about T-64 and T-80: how do they eject the stub case, there isn't any trapdoor like on the T-72 and T-90 Neutral

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  franco on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:39 am

    cracker wrote:
    franco wrote:

    My research suggests that there were at the most 400 T-80U's in the Russian Army after 1992 and only about 150 upgraded to T-80BV standard. Conventional wisdom is that less of these are still operational.

    what? you must be mixing up something... How is it possible that a T-80U be "upgraded" into a T-80BV? Or you meant, only 150 T-80BV were made upon the roughly 4000 T-80B, for something littlerally done in a few hours in any workshop, something applied by the thousands (possibly tens of thds) on T-72A and B and T-64B? it's very weird... There can't possibly be only 150 T-80BV.

    Concerning T-80B/BV FCS and just internal systems in general (electronic, optic, stabiliser)... Is it identical to T-64B or is it improved in some ways? Both tanks are described as having the same FCS 1A33, something far more efficient and modern than anything mounted on the T-72, even the T-72B 1A40 doesn't compare well to the 1A33, and much less to the 1A45 of T-80U.


    Question about T-64 and T-80: how do they eject the stub case, there isn't any trapdoor like on the T-72 and T-90 Neutral

    Sorry my bad! Not very clear, only 150 T-80B's or so were upgraded to T-80BV's. Heard decision made to phase out the T-80's instead.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  cracker on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:48 am

    franco wrote:

    Sorry my bad! Not very clear, only 150 T-80B's or so were upgraded to T-80BV's. Heard decision made to phase out the T-80's instead.  

    i still don't get it... it makes no sense. Almost all T-80B were upgraded into T-80BV as far as we know.. Like for T-64BV. Also, T-80BV production lasted surely 5 or 6 years, because T-80U wasn't produced in the same factory. So you have about 6 years of T-80B production + 5-6 of T-80BV production in parallel of T-80U and UD. T-80BV started to be produced in 1984, and kits for upgrading older tanks were provided quickly too

    If you look pictures you'll find countless of T-80BV but only black and white pictures of early T-80B or rarely in color, or in museums, etc... I can't believe it's only 150 tanks.

    Also, T-80BV armor was not identical to the T-80B, and it's said later production even used T-80U turret but with K1 era. And still the older internals, not the modern stuff of T-80U, just the turret.

    You can look at the ukrainian tank dumps, you'll find T-80s rotting in the open, all have the mountings for the ERA, they are T-80BVs, and it was/is the same in many russian tank storage places.

    Just a few months ago ukrops restored some 50 T-80BVs for their troops, so you tell me they had 50s and russia has 100 in total? it can't be.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  franco on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:53 am

    The figures I quoted of 400 and 150 were for the Russian Army only. As to the rest, those are the numbers that I came across in my research. Have actually seen one report that said only 115 B's were upgraded by the Russians.

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  cracker on Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:08 pm

    hmm ok whatever that means...

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