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    The T-80s future in the Russian Army

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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:15 pm

    Militarov wrote:Not like anyone is asking me, but i would never return T-80s into service, they were for years throwing them out of service and bringing T-72Bs... what suddenly changed so they want to modernise and keep in service some 400 T-80s?

    I would; retrofitting them with new turrets/basket should do it nicely. The problem is that the cost would probably far more prohibitive than the T72's.

    But frankly for balance reasons, I would simply push further on Omsk design without the turbine non-sense. They had a rammer autoloader ready to go, which IMO was technically more feasible than the semi-oscillating bull that they adapted for the T-14.

    Also modernized tanks aren't all that interesting, but they're still capable and it's only going up from the current capabilities (of these tanks for now).

    Also modernizing T80's should bring them at same level. As long as this doesn't happen anymore, the tanks shouldn't be inferior to T-72.




    You can see and early Thales CRF and Catherine set on this one.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:19 pm

    They need numbers, it's probably as simple as that. Their current T-72 & variants fleet is not cutting it.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:12 pm


    I heard a theory that they are getting them for Arctic troops. Is there maybe some performance advantage that turbines have over standard engines in low temperatures?
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    Militarov

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Militarov on Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:29 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I heard a theory that they are getting them for Arctic troops. Is there maybe some performance advantage that turbines have over standard engines in low temperatures?

    Yes there is, turbines can fairly easily deal with temperatures as low as -60C or at least easier than diesels. I had similar idea but i am not sure.
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    Militarov

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Militarov on Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:32 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Not like anyone is asking me, but i would never return T-80s into service, they were for years throwing them out of service and bringing T-72Bs... what suddenly changed so they want to modernise and keep in service some 400 T-80s?

    I would; retrofitting them with new turrets/basket should do it nicely. The problem is that the cost would probably far more prohibitive than the T72's.

    But frankly for balance reasons, I would simply push further on Omsk design without the turbine non-sense. They had a rammer autoloader ready to go, which IMO was technically more feasible than the semi-oscillating bull that they adapted for the T-14.

    Also modernized tanks aren't all that interesting, but they're still capable and it's only going up from the current capabilities (of these tanks for now).

    Also modernizing T80's should bring them at same level. As long as this doesn't happen anymore, the tanks shouldn't be inferior to T-72.




    You can see and early Thales CRF and Catherine set on this one.

    If there is no specific reason why turbine engines are a must (Arctic forces?) i wouldnt bring them back, id just pull more T-72Bs from storage and modernise them, there should be at least 2.000 more rusting away.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:13 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Not like anyone is asking me, but i would never return T-80s into service, they were for years throwing them out of service and bringing T-72Bs... what suddenly changed so they want to modernise and keep in service some 400 T-80s?

    I would; retrofitting them with new turrets/basket should do it nicely. The problem is that the cost would probably far more prohibitive than the T72's.

    But frankly for balance reasons, I would simply push further on Omsk design without the turbine non-sense. They had a rammer autoloader ready to go, which IMO was technically more feasible than the semi-oscillating bull that they adapted for the T-14.

    Also modernized tanks aren't all that interesting, but they're still capable and it's only going up from the current capabilities (of these tanks for now).

    Also modernizing T80's should bring them at same level. As long as this doesn't happen anymore, the tanks shouldn't be inferior to T-72.




    You can see and early Thales CRF and Catherine set on this one.

    If there is no specific reason why turbine engines are a must (Arctic forces?) i wouldnt bring them back, id just pull more T-72Bs from storage and modernise them, there should be at least 2.000 more rusting away.

    If they have any stored T-80U they're much better off restoring them to service. I agree T-80BV is not worth it when they have T-72B at hand.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:31 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Not like anyone is asking me, but i would never return T-80s into service, they were for years throwing them out of service and bringing T-72Bs... what suddenly changed so they want to modernise and keep in service some 400 T-80s?

    I would; retrofitting them with new turrets/basket should do it nicely. The problem is that the cost would probably far more prohibitive than the T72's.

    But frankly for balance reasons, I would simply push further on Omsk design without the turbine non-sense. They had a rammer autoloader ready to go, which IMO was technically more feasible than the semi-oscillating bull that they adapted for the T-14.

    Also modernized tanks aren't all that interesting, but they're still capable and it's only going up from the current capabilities (of these tanks for now).

    Also modernizing T80's should bring them at same level. As long as this doesn't happen anymore, the tanks shouldn't be inferior to T-72.




    You can see and early Thales CRF and Catherine set on this one.

    If there is no specific reason why turbine engines are a must (Arctic forces?) i wouldnt bring them back, id just pull more T-72Bs from storage and modernise them, there should be at least 2.000 more rusting away.

    The problem is that you have storages full of T's. With upgrades that are compatible for both sides and with structural advantages for the T-80's (while understanding the caveats).

    So in my opinion the 72's only win on the bean counter column. Otherwise, same same.
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  VladimirSahin on Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:32 am

    T-72B3s are already mediocre, why spend money on the T-80s when we could have allocated that money to atleast upgrade B3s to B3Ms... The only tank worth upgrading in the T-80 series is the T-80U, and even with that I'm sure these upgrades will be just as mediocre as the T-72B3...
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:46 am

    VladimirSahin wrote:T-72B3s are already mediocre, why spend money on the T-80s when we could have allocated that money to atleast upgrade B3s to B3Ms... The only tank worth upgrading in the T-80 series is the T-80U, and even with that I'm sure these upgrades will be just as mediocre as the T-72B3...

    There's mediocrity and mediocrity.
    Upgrading and keeping the T-80U in active service or upgrading some T-72B is way better than having the largest country in the world with less than 2,000 operational MBTs.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:44 am

    VladimirSahin wrote:T-72B3s are already mediocre, why spend money on the T-80s when we could have allocated that money to atleast upgrade B3s to B3Ms... The only tank worth upgrading in the T-80 series is the T-80U, and even with that I'm sure these upgrades will be just as mediocre as the T-72B3...

    B3's aren't mediocre at all. At this point there are very few tanks that "aren't mediocre". There has been such a change in tactics from the crazy company that I don't see why any world power is going to think their AFV's are safe. The whole SVBIED logic is going to cough up Goliath-style suicide drones on wheels. Specially when you see how successful that crap is on a worn down opponent. So what is needed is firepower even without the full spectrum defense. Which can be retro-fitted on tanks like the T80.

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    eehnie

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:48 am

    Looking at the production of new tanks, when the mass production of the T-14 begins, this is key for Russia. Russia needs to replace all its current fleet of active tanks by T-14s in approximately 25 years (by 2041) to assure a good rate of replacement of its tank fleet in the next 50 years.

    Every tank in the the reserve of the Russian Armed Forces needs enough maintenance to avoid a lose in 10-15 years in the storage places. Also, this is key for Russia.

    In third place comes the policy of updates and upgrades. It would be good if the current T-72 and T-80 in active service would have an upgrade from the initial variants. There are some options. Maybe all T-72 aor different mixes of T-72 and T-80s. For it if I'm not wrong it would be necessary to update still between 1600 and 1800 tanks and it would not be a problem if are all T-72.

    The upgrade of the rest of T-72 and T-80 would come if it is economically possible.

    Still, I think the T-80 needs a new combat opportunity to restore its image. Including the basic variant. Technically I do not think it is a bad tank for today and for the following years.
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  VladimirSahin on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:50 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote:T-72B3s are already mediocre, why spend money on the T-80s when we could have allocated that money to atleast upgrade B3s to B3Ms... The only tank worth upgrading in the T-80 series is the T-80U, and even with that I'm sure these upgrades will be just as mediocre as the T-72B3...

    There's mediocrity and mediocrity.
    Upgrading and keeping the T-80U in active service or upgrading some T-72B is way better than having the largest country in the world with less than 2,000 operational MBTs.

    This is true

    [quote]B3's aren't mediocre at all. At this point there are very few tanks that "aren't mediocre". There has been such a change in tactics from the crazy company that I don't see why any world power is going to think their AFV's are safe. The whole SVBIED logic is going to cough up Goliath-style suicide drones on wheels. Specially when you see how successful that crap is on a worn down opponent. So what is needed is firepower even without the full spectrum defense. Which can be retro-fitted on tanks like the T80./quote]

    Well you know T-72B3s compared to western heavy tanks are pretty mediocre in a few categories. The US operates thousands of M1A2s and M1A1s that have thermal systems for the command and gunner, and even the loader! Optics wise those tanks are lacking... For God's sake a 2012 upgrade with a 80s commander sight? No just no.
    That's my main issue with this upgrade. It isn't mediocre in the sense of being a tank, as the gunner operates a goodish thermal sight, has a good FCS, protection is goodish.

    My problem with upgrading the T-80s are that these tanks need to have their autoloaders upgraded so they can shoot the newer rounds, they need to have thermals installed onto them, they need to do a whole lot of stuff. For the T-80U this is totally worth it IMO, the armor on them are already pretty good, and if we could get relikt in service with those they'd be quite capable, but again alot of this stuff we could have got with the T-72B3M upgrade, where the commander also gets a thermal optic.

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:58 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:Well you know T-72B3s compared to western heavy tanks are pretty mediocre in a few categories. The US operates thousands of M1A2s and M1A1s that have thermal systems for the command and gunner, and even the loader! Optics wise those tanks are lacking... For God's sake a 2012 upgrade with a 80s commander sight? No just no.
    That's my main issue with this upgrade. It isn't mediocre in the sense of being a tank, as the gunner operates a goodish thermal sight, has a good FCS, protection is goodish.

    My problem with upgrading the T-80s are that these tanks need to have their autoloaders upgraded so they can shoot the newer rounds, they need to have thermals installed onto them, they need to do a whole lot of stuff. For the T-80U this is totally worth it IMO, the armor on them are already pretty good, and if we could get relikt in service with those they'd be quite capable, but again alot of this stuff we could have got with the T-72B3M upgrade, where the commander also gets a thermal optic.

    +1 on all points. For me T-80U are definitely worth upgrading (to the extent that you mention) and keeping in niche regions and military districts (Arctic, Far East, Sakhalin).
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    Benya

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  Benya on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:42 pm

    Russian T-80U MBT proceeded to a gunnery qualification test

    The battalion commanders with the 1st Armored Army of the Western Military District have taken a gunnery qualification test, using their T-80U Main Battle Tanks (MBT), according to the Western Military Distirct’s press office.


    Russian T-80U MBT
    (Credit: Army Recognition)

    "In the Moscow Region, the battalion commanders and their executive officers with the 1st Armored Army of the Western Military District have taken gunnery qualification tests as T-80U driver, gunner and commander," the news release says.

    The qualification gunnery test crowned the training session, during which the officers learnt the latest training and education methods and the techniques designed to improve the effectiveness of tanks in combat.

    The gunnery was hosted by the Kantemirovskaya Armored Division - the district’s most combat-ready division in 2016. This year, the large unit will compete for the title of the best division in the Russian Armed Forces.

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/february_2017_global_defense_security_army_news_industry/russian_t-80u_mbt_proceeded_to_a_gunnery_qualification_test_tass_7130220171.html
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    George1

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    Re: The T-80s future in the Russian Army

    Post  George1 on Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:05 am

    On the modernization of tanks T-80BV

    Confirmed information that the Russian "defense industry" is actively working on the modernization of tanks T-80BV. Order of the Ministry of Defense is implemented in Omsk and St. Petersburg enterprises. Speech about JSC "Omsktransmash" and JSC "Special Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering".

    In the course of the modernization, the Sosna-U control systems are installed on the tanks equipped with a laser range finder, a thermal imager and an automatic tracking system after the operator seizes the target. Production of the multi-channel thermal imaging sighting device "Sosna-U" was previously set up at the Volgograd VOMZ.

    Omsk and St. Petersburg enterprises in the course of modernization of the "eighties" solve the problem of reducing the level of fuel consumption. For tanks that differ fuel consumption level is not economical, this is an important innovation. Previously, under certain operating conditions, a tank with a gas turbine unit could "eat" more than 7.5 liters per 1 km. For obvious reasons, from this more than impressive fuel consumption it was necessary either to leave, or completely refuse to use a tank with a gas turbine power unit in the troops.

    An important feature is the work on the possibility of operating the T-80BV tank in northern latitudes. The task set before the engineering teams is to expand the range of operating temperatures and bring its lower bar to a level of "minus" 50 Celsius.

    In the course of modernization, tanks are equipped with a complex of opt-electronic suppression of ATGM guidance systems, as well as a capacitive wind force sensor.

    According to statements previously published by representatives of the mentioned enterprises in the media, until the end of the year the upgraded T-80 will be delivered to several tank units of the Russian Armed Forces. In total, over 100 such tanks must pass through repairs and upgrades. Earlier, the RF Ministry of Defense planned to modernize up to 300 "eighty".


    https://vpk.name/news/182566_o_modernizacii_tankov_t80bv.html?new#new


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