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    Rafale wins India's MMRCA

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    Pinto
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    Indian Rafale talks hit offset snag

    Post  Pinto on Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:49 pm

    India is believed to have run into difficulties in its negotiations with France over the cost price of 36 Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft, which it agreed to procure after a bilateral summit in Paris on 10 April, industry sources said.

    The sources said differences had emerged in recent weeks over India seeking to impose offsets of 50% on the estimated contract price of USD6-7 billion.

    Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar had said in several TV interviews in New Delhi in late May that the Rafale contract included a 50% mandatory offset obligation.

    Industry sources told IHS Jane's that during negotiations, French officials had reportedly told their Indian counterparts that their "insistence" on offsets would render the Rafale deal more expensive than the price tentatively agreed upon in Paris in April.



    @GarryB, @George1,

    http://www.janes.com/article/52553/indian-rafale-talks-hit-offset-snag

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:33 pm

    Gota love the Indians for how they handle the pesky French Very Happy

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:50 pm

    Viktor wrote:Gota love the Indians for how they handle the pesky French Very Happy

    French have gone back from there commitments many times in past 3 years and now its time to cancel this deal

    Buy some su 35s and work speedily and seriously on Tejas and FGFA

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:07 pm

    Pinto wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Gota love the Indians for how they handle the pesky French Very Happy

    French have gone back from there commitments many times in past 3 years and now its time to cancel this deal

    Buy some su 35s and work speedily and seriously on Tejas and FGFA

    With India's Su-30MKI numbers, no point at all for Su-35's. They might as well buy more Su-30MKI's and further upgrade the radar systems (thankfully, BARS requires around 10KW of total power to work thus the N036 would be able to easily be powered by the Su-30MKI thus they could obtain working AESA radars with capabilities of detection/tracking ranges of 300+KM. If not, an upgraded BARS radar would also suffice.

    But they need to obtain a cheaper aircraft with capabilities like MiG-21's or greater. Rafale is a great jet, but the price is just ridiculous. I think either more MiG-29's or something like Jas-39 Gripens are more ideal. Upgraded Mirage jets would also suffice or maybe work with South Africa and their Cheeta Jets (if SA even makes them anymore).


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:17 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Gota love the Indians for how they handle the pesky French Very Happy

    French have gone back from there commitments many times in past 3 years and now its time to cancel this deal

    Buy some su 35s and work speedily and seriously on Tejas and FGFA

    With India's Su-30MKI numbers, no point at all for Su-35's.  They might as well buy more Su-30MKI's and further upgrade the radar systems (thankfully, BARS requires around 10KW of total power to work thus the N036 would be able to easily be powered by the Su-30MKI thus they could obtain working AESA radars with capabilities of detection/tracking ranges of 300+KM.  If not, an upgraded BARS radar would also suffice.

    But they need to obtain a cheaper aircraft with capabilities like MiG-21's or greater.  Rafale is a great jet, but the price is just ridiculous.  I think either more MiG-29's or something like Jas-39 Gripens are more ideal.  Upgraded Mirage jets would also suffice or maybe work with South Africa and their Cheeta Jets (if SA even makes them anymore).



    Gripen is ruled out as its totally new platform, if Indian govt is wise enough and foreign fighters crazy IAF agrees, the couple of sq of MIG 29 SMT, or else like you said more SU 30mki with upgraded radars and electronics.

    France must not be allowed to dictate terms anymore now, Russians like always can bail India out as IAF is very sort of working squadrons of fit fighters

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:42 pm

    Pinto wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Gota love the Indians for how they handle the pesky French Very Happy

    French have gone back from there commitments many times in past 3 years and now its time to cancel this deal

    Buy some su 35s and work speedily and seriously on Tejas and FGFA

    With India's Su-30MKI numbers, no point at all for Su-35's.  They might as well buy more Su-30MKI's and further upgrade the radar systems (thankfully, BARS requires around 10KW of total power to work thus the N036 would be able to easily be powered by the Su-30MKI thus they could obtain working AESA radars with capabilities of detection/tracking ranges of 300+KM.  If not, an upgraded BARS radar would also suffice.

    But they need to obtain a cheaper aircraft with capabilities like MiG-21's or greater.  Rafale is a great jet, but the price is just ridiculous.  I think either more MiG-29's or something like Jas-39 Gripens are more ideal.  Upgraded Mirage jets would also suffice or maybe work with South Africa and their Cheeta Jets (if SA even makes them anymore).



    Gripen is ruled out as its totally new platform, if Indian govt is wise enough and foreign fighters crazy IAF agrees, the couple of sq of MIG 29 SMT, or else like you said more SU 30mki with upgraded radars and electronics.

    France must not be allowed to dictate terms anymore now, Russians like always can bail India out as IAF is very sort of working squadrons of fit fighters

    As much as AESA radar and PESA radars have their +/-'s, India will need new light jets. MiG-29M's could be ideal but MiG-35's not so much due to lack of it being in use and not a mature system. Also, theoretically its AESA radar should be operating at full capacity of 5W each T/R module and so its performance is quite stunted compared to other radars (this may heavily be due to its generator not providing enough power or the modules (as the head of KRET did state they operate at 3 - 3.5w each) or it could be issues with heat dissipation). So something capable and advanced would be ideal for India. MiG's may have good upgrade potential, Su-30MKI's cant put all eggs into 1 basket and they are quite expensive to use. So there needs to be an alternative.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  max steel on Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:58 pm

    Actually Sweden offer of Gripen found no backers in India.

    Swedish Defence Minister Peter Hultquist offer of selling India its next generation Gripen fighter aircraft to India under a government-to-government deal has got a cold response from India’s Ministry of defence (MOD) and Indian air force (IAF).
    While Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar gave visiting Counterpart Peter Hultquist a patient hearing on Sweden Gripen offer. IAF top brass have given it a cold shoulder said sources.

    Indian air force which is miffed with smaller order placed for French Dassault Rafale fighter jet by Ministry of defence is not keen on adding another Type of aircraft in Inventory which can sabotage possible further follow-up orders of Rafale fighter jets . Current orders of 36 Rafale Jets will mean IAF can barely operate Two full Strength Squadrons, which they feel is way to less to have an effective operational aircraft type.

    This time around even Ex-IAF chiefs like Fali Homi Major and Pradeep Naik in their latest interviews have backed LCA Program and have described LCA has a perfect aircraft to replace Mig-21s in IAF fleet and are not keen on backing Swedish offer on supply of Gripen jets to India .

    In Last few years IAF has been fully supporting Indigenous LCA-Tejas Project and are also working closely with DRDO and HAL on development of Tejas MK-2 aircraft which IAF believes will bridge the gap between Tejas MK-1 and Air Staff Requirements (ASR) of Indian Air-force .
    IAF and HAL also have agreed to develop a new LCA Tejas MK-I variant dubbed ” LCA-1P ” which will be equipped with an advanced AESA Radar and an electro-optic Electronic Warfare (EW) sensor suite.

    AESA and EW Suite both key components in modern fighter jets were planned for LCA Program and were to be added on Tejas MK-2, but now will also be added to new variant which will be based on Tejas MK-1 air frame and will be ready for first flight by 2017.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:14 am

    damn... 6-7 billion for just 36 aircraft... that is 3 quarters of the original price for less than one quarter of the aircraft numbers...

    Obviously I personally would go for MiG-29M2s in the short term and in the longer term I would look at merging the Tegas and the medium stealth programme the Indians are working on and develop a cheap numbers alternative to the FFGA that is not too expensive to maintain and operate or buy, is safe and reliable, but gets the job done.

    Focus on guidance and weapons that are sophisticated but relatively inexpensive to actually use... satellite guided bombs etc.

    the Rafale is nice, but then India have spend half a billion on C-17 transport aircraft so despite their reputation for haggling they can still end up paying top dollar for items that don't really warrant it.


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:11 pm

    I think India should buy MiG-29M2 instead of Rafales as this plane is practically ground based MiG-29K/KUB and no worse than Rafale.

    Other story is Tejas, because it is western Trojan horse for India. Practically only a body of Tejas is made in India, all other components inside are imported from the west, mostly from Israel and US. In case of sanctions Tejas is grounded and their production is stopped and after 30 years of "development" it is still not in serial production.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:39 pm

    medo wrote:I think India should buy MiG-29M2 instead of Rafales as this plane is practically ground based MiG-29K/KUB and no worse than Rafale.

    Other story is Tejas, because it is western Trojan horse for India. Practically only a body of Tejas is made in India, all other components inside are imported from the west, mostly from Israel and US. In case of sanctions Tejas is grounded and their production is stopped and after 30 years of "development" it is still not in serial production.


    Quick decision to buy more MIG 29M2 is better option, for that they first need to cancel Rafale deal all together, Tejas is prone to sanctions by US but still Indian govt went ahead with it

    FGFA programme needs to be speed-ed up by spending the money saved from Rafales

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:damn... 6-7 billion for just 36 aircraft... that is 3 quarters of the original price for less than one quarter of the aircraft numbers...

    Obviously I personally would go for MiG-29M2s in the short term and in the longer term I would look at merging the Tegas and the medium stealth programme the Indians are working on and develop a cheap numbers alternative to the FFGA that is not too expensive to maintain and operate or buy, is safe and reliable, but gets the job done.

    Focus on guidance and weapons that are sophisticated but relatively inexpensive to actually use... satellite guided bombs etc.

    the Rafale is nice, but then India have spend half a billion on C-17 transport aircraft so despite their reputation for haggling they can still end up paying top dollar for items that don't really warrant it.

    Alarming drop in active fighters with air force and IAF's penchant for western fighters has brough this situation. hopefully present govt will show a stick to IAF and take some quick decisions and Russia alone can be trusted to deliver some quick MIG29M2 or SU35s

    In meantime deal for FGFA is expected to be signed next week when PM of India meets president Putin

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:01 pm

    FGFA is still a ways away. PAK FA isn't even ready yet. This year, India will lose about 50+ aircraft and the 37 Rafale's don't even cover that loss. So India will need something soon. Even Pakistan is acquiring aircrafts in quicker numbers than India, and Pakistan pays significantly less. Although, I would assume that JF-17 isn't near the classes of MiG-29M or Rafale or such, it is still a decent fighter that would definitely give India a headache especially in numbers.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:53 am

    For 6-7 billion I am pretty sure MiG would make 300 MiG-29m2s so the old MiG-21s could be replaced one for one and with its modern avionics it could replace the MiG-27 and Jaguar in one shot.

    And if you are going for the MiG then replace the foreign bits in Tegas and replace them with MiG-29 components for local production and then no one can sanction your local production of your numbers aircraft...


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  medo on Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:39 am

    Tejas is a painful project for India. After 30 years of development only a body is Indian, all other components are imported from the West. If they want to replace western components with Russian, than it will take another decade or more to made changes and integrate all that in Tejas, before it will see a serial production. What this mean is, that in this case, when Tejas see serial production after 40+ years of development will be as modern as MiG-21 is now. If IAF want to have something from Tejas, they have to start a production as soon as possible in today configuration although that mean they have to overpay all components to import from US, Israel and other western producers and expose Tejas maximally to sanctions. If India will go to replacement of western parts with Russian, that it will be delayed for another decade or two, what practically means, that Tejas will never see serial production and will be a very expensive failed project.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:47 am

    sepheronx wrote:FGFA is still a ways away.  PAK FA isn't even ready yet.  This year, India will lose about 50+ aircraft and the 37 Rafale's don't even cover that loss.  So India will need something soon.  Even Pakistan is acquiring aircrafts in quicker numbers than India, and Pakistan pays significantly less.  Although, I would assume that JF-17 isn't near the classes of MiG-29M or Rafale or such, it is still a decent fighter that would definitely give India a headache especially in numbers.

    Three squardons of MIG 21, MIG 27 will be phased out this year, with 12 SU30MKI expected to join this year still 2 squardons more will will be gone. Yes in numbers JF17 is good aircraft but they are for pint defense in pakistan territory only they wont be for attacking inside territories. F 16 will be used for offensve operations and here they will face SU30MKI, uograded MIG 29, MK2 etc

    Better sense must prevail and 3-4 squardons of MIG 29S2 can be added and FGFA must be speeded up at any cost by india and Russia

    can any one throw light on what SPECTRA means in rafale's self defense ? is it really effective as its being advertised ?

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:49 am

    GarryB wrote:For 6-7 billion I am pretty sure MiG would make 300 MiG-29m2s so the old MiG-21s could be replaced one for one and with its modern avionics it could replace the MiG-27 and Jaguar in one shot.

    And if you are going for the MiG then replace the foreign bits in Tegas and replace them with MiG-29 components for local production and then no one can sanction your local production of your numbers aircraft...

    This is the best option available with no risk of sanctions but foreign crazy and IAF might not like this option. here govt must give stick in the back of IAF top brass

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:51 am

    medo wrote:Tejas is a painful project for India. After 30 years of development only a body is Indian, all other components are imported from the West. If they want to replace western components with Russian, than it will take another decade or more to made changes and integrate all that in Tejas, before it will see a serial production. What this mean is, that in this case, when Tejas see serial production after 40+ years of development will be as modern as MiG-21 is now. If IAF want to have something from Tejas, they have to start a production as soon as possible in today configuration although that mean they have to overpay all components to import from US, Israel and other western producers and expose Tejas maximally to sanctions. If India will go to replacement of western parts with Russian, that it will be delayed for another decade or two, what practically means, that Tejas will never see serial production and will be a very expensive failed project.

    now there is no going back on Tejas despite being sanctions prone as delay can not be afforded anymore. final clearance is expected in December, US has always ditched its allies and friends. Indian govt must bear this in mind


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:51 am

    There is nothing wrong with having some dependence on Western suppliers.
    It's just wrong to be completely dependent on them.

    Tejas looks like a cheap, capable fighter - so what if its dependent on Western components?

    Main thing is that India should be diversified; no too much dependence on any one single supplier including Russia.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  medo on Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:40 pm

    flamming_python wrote:There is nothing wrong with having some dependence on Western suppliers.
    It's just wrong to be completely dependent on them.

    Tejas looks like a cheap, capable fighter - so what if its dependent on Western components?

    Main thing is that India should be diversified; no too much dependence on any one single supplier including Russia.

    Considering to the time and costs of development, someone would expect, that Tejas will be 100% Indian made. In that case even additional delay would be acceptable as whole whole components and infrastructure is developed and produced in India, because it is a base for further development of new fighters and other type of aircrafts. Making only a body of a plane, everything else is imported, it would be normal, that Tejas is now 20 years in serial production, not still in development and tests. India will not produce engines for Tejas at home, they will be imported from US. India will not produce radars and armament at home, they will be imported from Israel. On the other hand India is a member of BRICS group, so it is only a question of time, when the West will sooner or later impose sanctions on India and Tejas will never see an actual serial production.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:06 pm

    medo wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:There is nothing wrong with having some dependence on Western suppliers.
    It's just wrong to be completely dependent on them.

    Tejas looks like a cheap, capable fighter - so what if its dependent on Western components?

    Main thing is that India should be diversified; no too much dependence on any one single supplier including Russia.

    Considering to the time and costs of development, someone would expect, that Tejas will be 100% Indian made. In that case even additional delay would be acceptable as whole whole components and infrastructure is developed and produced in India, because it is a base for further development of new fighters and other type of aircrafts. Making only a body of a plane, everything else is imported, it would be normal, that Tejas is now 20 years in serial production, not still in development and tests. India will not produce engines for Tejas at home, they will be imported from US. India will not produce radars and armament at home, they will be imported from Israel. On the other hand India is a member of BRICS group, so it is only a question of time, when the West will sooner or later impose sanctions on India and Tejas will never see an actual serial production.

    well bro let the west and US sanction India it would be wake call for political leadership of India who are not realizing that how Pakistanis f16 fleet was grounded because of sanctions. But the hard fact is china flexing its muscles and aiding Pakistan against Indian interests has forced India to spread its area of cooperation beyond Russia(India's only all weather real friend) to west and US

    The kaveri engine development was stopped and now its started again, feel some Russian help can be sought as sry thrust do no go beyond 60-70

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:28 am

    For the sort of money France is asking for Rafale India could buy technology from Russia and produce it locally... so they get diversified sources... Russian and Domestic Indian (bought and paid for).

    I understand the reasoning behind multiple sources but enough is enough... most western sources have proven unreliable through politically driven sanctions against India.

    In the past Russia has let India down too, but normally because of unforseen problems... ie accidental delays rather than politically motivated ones.

    The solution to that is locally produce the bits you need so no one can deny you access to them in hard times.


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:15 pm

    I still think those MiG-35s would be a much better choice than the Rafaeles at this point.

    India already operates MiG-29s in its air force, and MiG-29Ks in its navy - it's well familiar with this family of aircraft and has the supply and logistics chain already set-up.
    The MiG-35s can be assigned to experience MiG-29 pilots, with retraining on the new simulators and with the help of Russian instructors to get them up to scratch with all of its new features.

    They could comfortably afford the numbers that they originally wanted to go for (120 or whatever it is), and local production can be discussed too.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:For the sort of money France is asking for Rafale India could buy technology from Russia and produce it locally... so they get diversified sources... Russian and Domestic Indian (bought and paid for).

    I understand the reasoning behind multiple sources but enough is enough... most western sources have proven unreliable through politically driven sanctions against India.

    In the past Russia has let India down too, but normally because of unforseen problems... ie accidental delays rather than politically motivated ones.

    The solution to that is locally produce the bits you need so no one can deny you access to them in hard times.

    Lets see what this new govt do now as french have back stepped all the conditions so far and its hugely costly to buy 35 birds for 8B $ including spares, ammunition etc.

    Russian delays have not been deliberate but this gave the chance to IAF to go for western equipment, now the ball is in govt court to call french bluff a bluff. corruption does play a big role in ministry of defense of India i guess. the pubic opinion is turning against france now because they are getting rigid

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:05 pm

    flamming_python wrote:I still think those MiG-35s would be a much better choice than the Rafaeles at this point.

    India already operates MiG-29s in its air force, and MiG-29Ks in its navy - it's well familiar with this family of aircraft and has the supply and logistics chain already set-up.
    The MiG-35s can be assigned to experience MiG-29 pilots, with retraining on the new simulators and with the help of Russian instructors to get them up to scratch with all of its new features.

    They could comfortably afford the numbers that they originally wanted to go for (120 or whatever it is), and local production can be discussed too.

    MIG 35 is very good a/c but problem is not in production as of now and India is going to be in crisis pretty soon as 3 sq of MIG 21, MIG 27 wll be retired this year

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:27 am

    MIG 35 is very good a/c but problem is not in production as of now and India is going to be in crisis pretty soon as 3 sq of MIG 21, MIG 27 wll be retired this year

    The MiG-35 is certainly not in production right now, but in the mean time the MiG-29M2 that the Mig-35 is based on could be produced in the short term... potentially in India if you want to go that way.

    AFAIK the MiG-35 the Russian AF are going for is not the same as the one offered to India, so India might want the new version or prefer the design that was submitted to them.... from memory the terms of the original deal was that the maker will provide 16 aircraft and the rest (110) will be assembled in India. Personally I think having the first 16 being MiG-29M2s and the first 55 produced in India (with a production facility upgrade), to be followed by the remaining 55 produced in India being MiG-35 plus upgrade of the 16 Russian produced and 55 Indian produced MiG-29M2s upgraded to 35 level would be a good solution. With the lower cost and local production I would expect another option could be to keep some aircraft simpler and cheaper M2 models for roles that don't require 35 level performance and just make 200 aircraft instead of 126.

    Say 30% being 35s and the other 140 being M2s that gradually get 35 upgrades as the technology gets cheaper.


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