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    Rafale wins India's MMRCA

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    type055
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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  type055 on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:24 am

    India buy all kind of weapons from France ,Russia , English,US, Israel,Italy . their maintenance crews must be headache.
    it's even harder put all these weapons together effectively

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  max steel on Sun May 10, 2015 12:32 am

    France offers 25% discount to India on purchase of 36 Rafale jets


    France agreed to a 25% discount on its earlier offer to clinch the deal for an off the-shelf purchase of 36Rafale aircraft during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris last month. This will be the base on which further negotiations will take place on Wednesday.
    The ballpark cost per aircraft as per Dassault’s winning bid for the 126 MMRCA programme — the old, nowscrapped, Rafale deal — came to about $300 million, taking into account the estimates ofHindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Sources told ET that the objective was to bring this down to a little over $200 million apiece.

    The overall cost is not expected to cross $8 billion for the entire 36-aircraft fleet, French sources said. MMRCA stands for medium multi-role combat aircraft.

    The price per aircraft is not just the acquisition cost of the platform, but also includes maintenance facilities, training of pilots and technicians, armaments and spares. In comparison, Dassault signed a deal withQatar on Monday to sell 24 Rafale fighters for $7 billion, which would put the per-aircraft cost at just over $290 million. India is set to get a better deal because of the larger number being ordered. It may be noted that the rival Eurofighter that was also in contention for the contract had offered India a 20% price cut after the new government took over.

    Besides the discount, France has agreed to undertake a longer maintenance schedule. The delivery of the first aircraft, according to the broad understanding reached at Paris, would take place in the next two-three years. France is believed to have pushed for a much larger off-the-shelf purchase with better concessions but New Delhi was wary of the impact this would have on the PM’s own Make in India initiative. The number, 36, was France’s bottom line in the negotiations. Before the visit, France had put its entire diplomatic weight behind striking a deal, which had got caught up in complications that would have translated into a cost escalation. This would have meant it would get reopened, further delaying the programme.
    Fresh negotiations began only after India made clear that the old deal was dead. This happened because the cost of the programme had swelled beyond all estimates owing to differences between Dassault and state-owned HAL on the manpower required to produce the aircraft.

    HAL had estimated that India would require 2.7 times the man hours that France uses for constructing the aircraft, putting the cost beyond negotiation.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sat May 16, 2015 3:43 pm

    India is a sure shot looser and rather laughing stock in this deal, 36 Rafales contracted will start coming from 2018 at the earliest and this deal will be revised to 63 aircraft after seeing the political backlash impact this deal will cause in India

    Instead french should have been penalised by going in for MIG 35, a better cheaper option and now with Russian miffed and seems to be considering a deal with china for 24 MIG 35 initially and surely will add them in large numbers laters. This rafale deal in present form is loose loose for india

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    Planemaker Dassault to double Rafale output in 2-3 years if India buys

    Post  Pinto on Mon May 18, 2015 2:30 pm

    Reuters, Geneva| Updated: May 18, 2015 17:19 IST

    Dassault Aviation will double production of its Rafale combat jet within two to three years of the completion of a planned sale to India, its chief executive said on Monday.

    The French planemaker is also in talks with several other countries including Malaysia, after recently winning its first export contracts with Egypt and Qatar, CEO Eric Trappier added.

    He was speaking to Reuters at the EBACE business jet exhibition outside Geneva.

    Trappier last week said Dassault would increase production of the Rafale if it signs a third export contract but it did not give a timeframe.

    It currently produces 11 Rafales a year.

    India has pledged to order 36 of the planes directly from the French government after talks stalled with Dassault over a larger deal.

    Dassault said he hoped the govenment-to-government contract would be finalised this year, adding: "Once the India contract is signed we will double production in two to three years."

    Trappier also signalled a period of stability at French defence firm Thales, which has been disrupted by a series of management changes.

    Last week, Thales confirmed the company's chief executive and temporary chairman Patrice Caine in the combined roles of CEO and chairman after former utilities chief Henri Proglio refused to accept the chairmanship.

    Trappier said there were no plans to revert to the previous proposal of splitting the two roles, which had been designed to reconcile differences between core shareholders Dassault and the French government over who should run Thales.

    Trappier also said Dassault intends to remain a shareholder in Thales for the long term, but does not seek a majority stake, something that would require a new shareholder pact.

    "The less we talk to the government, the better things go as far as that subject is concerned," he said.

    Dassault owns 25.3% of Europe's largest defence electronics group and has a shareholder pact with the French government, which owns 26.4%.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Mon May 18, 2015 3:44 pm

    Dassault simply can't raise production rates I know this very well.
    By the way what is the state of the India contract? A lot of contradicting informations lately.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Mon May 18, 2015 3:55 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Dassault simply can't raise production rates I know this very well.
    By the way what is the state of the India contract? A lot of contradicting informations lately.

    Lol they say will raise capacity to 23 planes per year in 2-3 years, while they already have capacity full to supply to french air force and then to egypt, Qatar and india. Rafale wait will make indian air force more vulnerable to further drop in squadrons

    Indian contract has not been signed yet but when ever signed this sure to create political storm in india for sure as this deal has raised many questions, discount of 25% do not matter as purchasing off shelf is always cheaper then transfer of technology and package deal. this deal has now turned dubious with corruption as dassault will have indian partner as private company (Probably reliance group)and not state owned HAL. this is what dassault wanted from beginning

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Book. on Sat May 23, 2015 4:58 am

    Indian defence minister draws line at 36 Rafales
    India will neither licence-build additional Dassault Rafale fighters nor acquire more than the 36 it recently agreed to buy in flyaway condition, the country's Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on 21 May.

    In multiple interviews to TV channels to mark the completion of the government's first year in office, Parrikar said the money India had saved by acquiring 90 fewer Rafales would be diverted to buying 200-odd indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

    "By buying 36 Rafales instead of 126, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales," Parrikar said, adding that this amount was around INR900 billion (USD15.51 billion). "We will use this money to buy Tejas LCA priced at around INR1.5 billion each," he added.

    The LCA will replace 10 to 12 MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons to be retired from 2022 onwards, he said.

    Parrikar declined to reveal the cost of the 36 Rafales, whose purchase Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced in Paris on 10 April and which are presently the subject of negotiations. He did, however, confirm that the contract includes a 50% offset obligation.

    http://www.janes.com/article/51616/indian-defence-minister-draws-line-at-36-rafales

    Rafale gm over. Mig 29k the future?

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sat May 23, 2015 6:39 pm

    well defence minister statement is very funny and tragic at the same time. Teja can not be a substitute for a multi role fighter like Rafale. Hopefully Russia might chip in with some intresting offer on MIG 35

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat May 23, 2015 7:10 pm

    Pinto wrote:well defence minister statement is very funny and tragic at the same time. Teja can not be a substitute for a multi role fighter like Rafale. Hopefully Russia might chip in with some intresting offer on MIG 35

    A gift that keeps on giving: this is a cardinal sin of the Manmohan Singh's govt. attempt to get closer to the West, while a real observation would point to the fact that had they chosen the MiG-35 deal, not only could they get 2-3 MiG-35's for the price of one Rafale, not only would the facilities already have been built and up and running, there would also be a benefit of the logistics side due to the fact that the MiG-35's would have something like 80-90% parts commonality with the MiG-29's already in service in the IAF, which could potentially save tens of billions of Dollars over a 20-30 year span. But of course politicians with very little knowledge of military technology, should not be the ones that decide fate of military logistics!

    Logically its just a better idea to just scrap the 'stillborn' Rafale deal entirely, and looking how the French are unwilling to pay back the full costs to the Russian paid for Mistrals, combined with the botched Rafale deal it's just better not to deal with the 'EscarGauls' any longer.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  George1 on Sun May 24, 2015 1:31 am

    Book. wrote:

    Rafale gm over. Mig 29k the future?

    "No Mistrals for Russia? Then not any more Rafales", India Laughing

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sun May 24, 2015 10:08 am

    George1 wrote:
    Book. wrote:

    Rafale gm over. Mig 29k the future?

    "No Mistrals for Russia? Then not any more Rafales", India Laughing

    lol Laughing

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun May 24, 2015 2:51 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Pinto wrote:well defence minister statement is very funny and tragic at the same time. Teja can not be a substitute for a multi role fighter like Rafale. Hopefully Russia might chip in with some intresting offer on MIG 35

    A gift that keeps on giving: this is a cardinal sin of the Manmohan Singh's govt. attempt to get closer to the West, while a real observation would point to the fact that had they chosen the MiG-35 deal, not only could they get 2-3 MiG-35's for the price of one Rafale, not only would the facilities already have been built and up and running, there would also be a benefit of the logistics side due to the fact that the MiG-35's would have something like 80-90% parts commonality with the MiG-29's already in service in the IAF, which could potentially save tens of billions of Dollars over a 20-30 year span. But of course politicians with very little knowledge of military technology, should not be the ones that decide fate of military logistics!

    Logically its just a better idea to just scrap the 'stillborn' Rafale deal entirely, and looking how the French are unwilling to pay back the full costs to the Russian paid for Mistrals, combined with the botched Rafale deal it's just better not to deal with the 'EscarGauls' any longer.

    India has to many damn Serdyukovs, the entire point of a competition was to find the best deal, but because of some over obsession with French fighters they excepted the worst deal, this is why i laugh when articles claim that this was a pure military decision of pure military necessity BS, when this is actually more like a pure political decision, they look at what they had before and think the next version is the way to go, regardless of the consequences of such transition and this is to say nothing of the reliability of there supplier.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sun May 24, 2015 5:38 pm

    Well decision was going to be political since the floating of tenders for MRCA, Rafale and MIG 35 were natural contenders, because both are manufacturers are familiar to indian air force. But the way french has been stubborn in going back on MRCA terms and jacking up prices and not standing guarantees for planes manufactured in India under there guidance. Present day govt gave them gift of 36 fighters to be bought on shelf

    Now two possibilities remains either Russia will fulfill the gap with MIG 35 or the rafale will team up with indian private manufacturer to make planes in india for larger deal. India will need aroud 170 aircrafts and Tejas can not be the substitute for next 4-5 years for MRCA specifications of fighter plane

    Deal with Russia can be a win win solution as french have been already rewarded with 36 planes order. MIG 35 can save money, time and is familiar and common parts with MIG 29K. and is a better plane then Rafale


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun May 24, 2015 11:28 pm

    Actually the most widely spoken about expectation is that the funds would be redirected towards an upgraded Su-30MKI and Pak Fa

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Mon May 25, 2015 3:38 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Actually the most widely spoken about expectation is that the funds would be redirected towards an upgraded Su-30MKI and Pak Fa


    Upgraded Su 30 MKI is also a better option then to purchase rafale for more then double the initial costs. PAK FA programme too will now be speeded up as India has given indications that they will not insist on on 50-50 work sharing for speedy deliveries of planes

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  max steel on Sun May 31, 2015 8:29 pm

    More good news for the French

    India has scrapped officially the rafale deal . India will only buy 36 Rafales in ready to use condition ( what modi said in france after breaking the deadlock ) instead of 126 . So rest of jets will no longer be made under MAKE IN INDIA INTIATIVE DEfense Minister said .
    Laughing

    I guess India will be looking to fill the gap with su-30s ? Question

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-need-for-126-Rafales-Parrikar/articleshow/47489167.cms

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:49 pm

    max steel wrote: More good news for the French

    India has scrapped officially the rafale deal . India will only buy 36 Rafales in ready to use condition ( what modi said in france after breaking the deadlock ) instead of 126 . So rest of jets will no longer  be made under MAKE IN INDIA INTIATIVE  DEfense Minister said .
      Laughing

    I guess India will be looking to fill the gap with su-30s ? Question

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-need-for-126-Rafales-Parrikar/articleshow/47489167.cms

    Looks like there is some secret up the sleeve of govt it looks, 36 raffles are not enough, and which are the other aircraft which can be quickly added ? Obviously Russia might get order for another 100 aircrafts but which one

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:18 pm

    I believe someone already pointed out that they want to use the money to fund Tejas.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:49 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I believe someone already pointed out that they want to use the money to fund Tejas.

    That's odd, there should have already been proper funds allocated for that project and isn't all the money for the MMRCA being used to buy those (pathetic) 36 Rafales?? Neutral

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:30 pm

    Off Topic



    India, US to sign military cooperation agreement, talk on missile defence, WMD proliferation


    ndia and US will not only sign a new defence cooperation agreement to take ahead from a 2005 pact but are also set to explore the possibilities of cooperating in the development of missile defence systems and take forward proposals for joint development of military equipment.


    Besides, the two sides will explore possible cooperation in the advanced field of missile defence systems. While India is developing an indigenous missile shield, the last two tests have not been successful.

    The US has offered assistance in the missile defence system in the past too but given the recent upswing in relations, more concrete talks are expected during the visit. Discussions will also take place on increasing capabilities to prevent the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

    I don't know what expertise yanks will give to boost India's missile defense systems . I hope India will not fall in ussa missile defense shield trap .



    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-us-to-sign-military-cooperation-agreement-talk-on-missile-defence-wmd-proliferation/articleshow/47494296.cms

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:51 pm

    Pinto wrote:

    Looks like there is some secret up the sleeve of govt it looks, 36 raffles are not enough, and which are the other aircraft which can be quickly added ? Obviously Russia might get order for another 100 aircrafts but which one



    rest will be Tejas mk-2 . No russian planes

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:19 pm

    max steel wrote:Off Topic



    India, US to sign military cooperation agreement, talk on missile defence, WMD proliferation  


    ndia and US will not only sign a new defence cooperation agreement to take ahead from a 2005 pact but are also set to explore the possibilities of cooperating in the development of missile defence systems and take forward proposals for joint development of military equipment.  


    Besides, the two sides will explore possible cooperation in the advanced field of missile defence systems. While India is developing an indigenous missile shield, the last two tests have not been successful.

    The US has offered assistance in the missile defence system in the past too but given the recent upswing in relations, more concrete talks are expected during the visit. Discussions will also take place on increasing capabilities to prevent the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

    I don't know what expertise yanks will give to boost India's missile defense systems . I hope India will not fall in ussa missile defense shield trap .



    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-us-to-sign-military-cooperation-agreement-talk-on-missile-defence-wmd-proliferation/articleshow/47494296.cms

    Let me try translate the BS in the article: The US wants to show their superior ABM technology, with their failed GBI/GMD program Rolling Eyes Razz, while simultaneously trying to turn India in to a meatshield against China behind the cover of protecting India Razz, they'll claim to be India's ally, while simultaneously blocking India from joining the permanent 5 of the UN security council Razz , and demanding India dismantle it's nuclear deterrence Wink, then paying journo's to worship the 3 A's... Atlanticism, Anglophilia, Anglo-Supremacy, then pay journo's to hyperventilate about Chinese military cooperation with Pakistan, while telling them to ignore that the Atlantacists have being doing the same for decades Wink, and telling them that the Russians are genetically predisposed to be bad and Anglo Saxons are predisposed to be good Razz , also telling them to ignore when Nixon sent a naval fleet to attack India (that the Soviets/Russians prevented), as revenge for the British losing their jewel in their empire... Razz

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:38 pm

    max steel wrote:
    Pinto wrote:

    Looks like there is some secret up the sleeve of govt it looks, 36 raffles are not enough, and which are the other aircraft which can be quickly added ? Obviously Russia might get order for another 100 aircrafts but which one



    rest will be Tejas mk-2 . No russian planes

    The shortfall in squadrons for IAF will deteriorate more when these 36 rafales will be indiucted 3 years down the line. Tejas mark 2 is going to be delayed more and only 40 have been ordered. mark 2 tejas will not come any time before 5 years. Hence need to add more Russian planes tp bridge the steep downfall in capable Modern fighters in IAF inventory

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:42 pm

    Any agreement on missile difference is not on the cards with US yet though they may offer many things to milk India. India is mainly interested in CATAPULTS Tech from US for aircraft careers and India and the US have agreed to begin with four relatively modest "pathfinder projects" as well as explore development of aircraft carrier technologies and jet engines. The pathfinder products are the Raven mini unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), "roll-on, roll-off" mission modules for C-130J Super Hercules aircraft, mobile electric hybrid power sources, and chemical-biological warfare protection gear for soldiers.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:13 am

    I think they should get together with Sukhoi or MiG and try to get some advice and insights into Tegas II and try to make it a real success... there is no reason why it can't be a very very good aircraft for India and a bit of money and attention might do it the world of good.


    I especially liked what India did with the Rafales... they wanted French aircraft in the fleet to add different sensors and weapon types and they got it without having to buy 126 aircraft.

    They didn't get the planes as cheap as they wanted... but they ended up getting what they wanted... a mature capable modern plane that was not Russian.


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