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    Rafale wins India's MMRCA

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    Pinto
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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:54 am

    medo wrote:
    GarryB wrote:If that were actually true why did they order MiG-29SMTs in the first place?

    Why did it take until they were delivered for them to realise they needed Sukhois?

    Changing of priorities and similar price maybe? Most probably Algeria come to their mind, that they could be on the list of NATO to be attacked, so they rather chose bigger and more powerful multirole fighter, that NATO would not be that quick in their attacks, specially when Su-30MKA could strike back on NATO bases in Europe, while MiG-29SMT could have some problems to reach them.


    Pinto wrote:This Rafale deal is jinxed and is highly over priced, IAF needs to be kicked in there ass and make do woth some 60 Nos su35 or better to go for upgrade for su30mki to super sukhois. French are not good businessmen they need to see how Russia benefited after MIG 21 deal in 1960's but french seems to be shortsighted and will loose submarines project too if this deal falls

    I'm really surprised, that India is so much complicating about their fighters, when they need them as well as spoil them to the max and have problems later. Indian NAVY bought MiG-29K/KUB fighters for their carrier and until now they didn't have complains on MiG-29K jets as they are fully Russian without Indian or Israeli components inside. Why they need to buy a small butch of another type to complicate logistics, specially when they also insist on Israeli components inside Rafales, what will turn Rafale in another nightmare. If they need a smaller butch of fighters for quick replace of retiring MiGs, they could bought MiG-29M, which is the same as MiG-29K at the same time as MiG-29K. India already have MiG-29 jets and MiG-29M and MiG-29K will use the same logistic chain and they are not much worse than Rafale. Egypt buy 50 MiG-29M fighters for 2 billion $. With MiG-29M India could later easier accept more capable MiG-35. You could count, how many MiG-29M could India buy for 8,8 billion $ as they will pay for 36 Rafales. It's more than 200 MiGs and you could bet 200 MiGs could do far more than 36 Rafales.

    You are spot on bro, IAF actually needs 60 plus fighters and 36 rafales can't do the job and more India cant buy as they are madly costly. no one is able to understand why to buy 36 Nos

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:45 am

    At the time I thought it would make more sense to have a mixed MRCA fleet, with say 40 odd Rafales plus 80 odd MiG-29M2s for the original 10 billion, but with the price of 8.5 billion for just 36 Rafales... I mean the 12 MiG-29K2s for the Indian Navy cost 700 million... so 2.1 billion for 36 of those... not really sure how the Rafale can be worth so much more...

    I understand India wants diversity so no one country could sanction them and deny them an entire airforce... but lets get real... Russia has no history of doing this to India so why the lack of trust?

    The Uk, France, US... they all do it, but not Russia.

    Personally I think the MiG-29M2 would be an ideal cheap option to replace MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircraft in service... it would not need to be one for one... they could have gotten those 126 aircraft for less than the amount they paid for the MiG-29k2 as they were naval variants modified for carrier use... the M2 models would be cheaper and simpler and the remaining money from their 10 billion budget for the programme they could have invested in Tegas to get that into service faster... I like the Tegas and think if they invested more it could be an excellent little aircraft.


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:At the time I thought it would make more sense to have a mixed MRCA fleet, with say 40 odd Rafales plus 80 odd MiG-29M2s for the original 10 billion, but with the price of 8.5 billion for just 36 Rafales... I mean the 12 MiG-29K2s for the Indian Navy cost 700 million... so 2.1 billion for 36 of those... not really sure how the Rafale can be worth so much more...

    I understand India wants diversity so no one country could sanction them and deny them an entire airforce... but lets get real... Russia has no history of doing this to India so why the lack of trust?

    The Uk, France, US... they all do it, but not Russia.

    Personally I think the MiG-29M2 would be an ideal cheap option to replace MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircraft in service... it would not need to be one for one... they could have gotten those 126 aircraft for less than the amount they paid for the MiG-29k2 as they were naval variants modified for carrier use... the M2 models would be cheaper and simpler and the remaining money from their 10 billion budget for the programme they could have invested in Tegas to get that into service faster... I like the Tegas and think if they invested more it could be an excellent little aircraft.

    well Gary the problem doesn't seems to be trust level with Russia it seems the geo political happenings in Indian ocean and SCS or perhaps some other unknown reasons to be at play ??

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    French Rafale Jet Fighter Deal Yet to Cross First Hurdle in India

    Post  Pinto on Tue May 03, 2016 8:07 pm

    The ongoing negotiations between India and France on the purchase of 36 French Rafale fighter planes by India is still at its nascent stage.

    Despite a number of agreements already put in place, a French deal to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets to India is encountering difficulties.

    Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi stated that, "Except for the financial aspects, we have an inter-governmental agreement on the 36 Rafale jets. We will resolve the financial aspects soon," during a joint briefing with French President Francois Hollande when the later visited India in January this year. However, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar's statement in the Parliament on Tuesday revealed that while the financial aspect continues to be shrouded in controversy, even the technical aspect of the agreement is yet to be fully sorted out.

    The ongoing negotiations on the purchase of 36 French Rafale fighter planes by India is still at its nascent stage. In a marked departure from the mainstream hype, Defense Minister Parrikar said in Parliament, "the Ministry of Law & Justice has made certain observations and the same will be adequately taken into account while finalizing the IGA, which is still under negotiations."

    Though the Defense Minister did not read out in detail the observations of the Law Ministry, his statement was a clear sign that technical aspects of the deal have not yet taken shape. According to some sources, the Law Ministry has advised that India should include the French government in any breach of supply contract made by French companies. Secondly, for any disputes in the future, any arbitration should take place in India in place of Switzerland as proposed by France. Thirdly, the liability clause should be more stringent which is currently in favor of France.


    Nevertheless, Mr Parrikar did clarify that contentious issues remain to be sorted out. "India and France have agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement on the supply of 36 Rafale Aircraft. Negotiations on the terms and conditions of the said supply, including total cost, actual delivery timelines and guarantee period have not been concluded."

    Meanwhile, the Indian government has accepted that various foreign companies, including Boeing, are interested in manufacturing fighter aircrafts under the Make in India campaign.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160503/1039015814/french-rafele-hundle.html#ixzz47cLJpvDv

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    Parliamentary panel raps government for not inking Rafale deal

    Post  Pinto on Wed May 04, 2016 9:40 am

    NEW DELHI: A Parliamentary panel today rapped the government for not inking the Rafale deal despite "considerable time" even as the government said the original contract for 126 planes could not be concluded because Dassault Aviation did not agree to certain tender clauses and its own bid.

    Expressing its unhappiness, the Standing Committee on Defence, which submitted it report to the Lok Sabha, also asked the government to ensure that the IAF achieves it authorised strength of 42 squadrons as against 33 presently.

    "The Committee are unhappy to note that although a considerable time has elapsed, negotiations with France on Rafale could not be taken to a logical end," the report said.

    It was in April last year when Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his trip to France, had announced the decision to acquire 36 Rafale fighter jets off the shelf in view of the critical operational necessity for multi-role combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

    However, a contract is still to be signed due to the hard price negotiations. While the cost of the 36 Rafale fighter jets, based on the the original Request For Proposal (RFP) price while taking into account the foreign exchange and others, comes to about Rs 65,000 crore.

    India is bargaining hard to bring down the price to about Rs 59,000 crore.

    Talking about the earlier tender, the government told the committee that "contract negotiations in the procurement case could not be ..

    Read more at:
    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/52094853.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

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    €7.25-billion: France makes its ‘best’ price offer for 36 Rafale fighter jets

    Post  Pinto on Fri May 13, 2016 2:06 pm

    The Rafale fighter deal that has been stuck for the past several months on pricing issues is likely to move ahead with a new offer from Paris that could see India paying 7.25 billion for 36 new jets.

    The new offer from France is the lowest price being quoted for the Rafale fighters till now, though a weapons package is to be negotiated separately. Officials involved in the negotiations have told ET that the latest French offer came just over two weeks ago and could be the last price being offered for the Rafale fighter jets that are being procured by India under a government to government deal.

    This is a substantial cut from the 8.8 billion Euro figure that was being quoted for the deal in BJP circles and was even advertised by its IT department as a major win for the Modi government.

    Officials say that the negotiations will now only move forward after an Indian response to the offer. The two sides are also negotiating a five-year support package for the fighter jets, down from the ten-year package that was being discussed earlier. Sources say that the weapons package will be signed separately as has been the norm but the original requirement has been pruned.

    This has been done as several weapons are common with the in service Mirage fighter fleet. On April 21, Parrikar had said that the Rafale deal is “in quite an advanced stage and we intend to close it quite soon”. The deal has to be first approved by the defence ministry followed by which it would go for a go ahead by the Cabinet. The offer for 7.25 billion euros for the 36 aircraft would also include an offset clause that would see French companies like Dassault and Thales investing in the Indian defence and security sector. France agreed to a 50 percent offset clause as a special case for India after the direct intervention of the Indian PMO, sources said. The investment of over 3 billion euros would be a boost for Indian defence and aerospace companies.

    Several Indian companies are partnering with French companies for the offsets, including a plan to assemble aircraft parts and even a low cost executive jet in India. Several aircraft technologies, including a special radar absorbing paint are likely to be transferred as well through the defence research and development organization.

    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/7-25-billion-france-makes-its-best-price-offer-for-36-rafale-fighter-jets/articleshow/52230203.cms

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Werewolf on Fri May 13, 2016 6:18 pm

    202 mln per plane... brilliant, even if you would be generous and get 50 mln per plane for other things training, spare pars and so on it is still far to much for a plane that is underwhelming in performance compared with costs of other planes.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Militarov on Fri May 13, 2016 7:08 pm

    Werewolf wrote:202 mln per plane... brilliant, even if you would be generous and get 50 mln per plane for other things training, spare pars and so on it is still far to much for a plane that is underwhelming in performance compared with costs of other planes.

    Apparently it includes pilot and technician training, aircrafts themself, ground equipment, spare parts, maintenance support for 20 years.

    But looking at the price i am almost convinced it will have to include some kind of ammunition deal too.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Fri May 13, 2016 7:10 pm

    Werewolf wrote:202 mln per plane... brilliant, even if you would be generous and get 50 mln per plane for other things training, spare pars and so on it is still far to much for a plane that is underwhelming in performance compared with costs of other planes.

    This package includes life cycle support, spares and arms and setting up of a base training and half of the money 3 b euro will be invested back in india

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  sepheronx on Fri May 13, 2016 7:22 pm

    Pinto wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:202 mln per plane... brilliant, even if you would be generous and get 50 mln per plane for other things training, spare pars and so on it is still far to much for a plane that is underwhelming in performance compared with costs of other planes.

    This package includes life cycle support, spares and arms and setting up of a base training and half of the money 3 b euro will be invested back in india

    theoretically. There isn't guarantee it will be re-invested back. We may just forget about it altogether and the media wont say anything nor will government.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Fri May 13, 2016 7:42 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:202 mln per plane... brilliant, even if you would be generous and get 50 mln per plane for other things training, spare pars and so on it is still far to much for a plane that is underwhelming in performance compared with costs of other planes.

    This package includes life cycle support, spares and arms and setting up of a base training and half of the money 3 b euro will be invested back in india

    theoretically.  There isn't guarantee it will be re-invested back.  We may just forget about it altogether and the media wont say anything nor will government.

    well dear the most unfortunate thing about this deal is cost and secondly its number of aircraft, why 36 only ? what purpose they will serve in 2 sq

    nothing is clear don't know why this jinxed deal is being pursued if Russian options are not to the liking of IAF then why to go for Americans as at one pint of time they will arm twist. Only god knows the truth now

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Fri May 13, 2016 7:56 pm

    Pinto wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:202 mln per plane... brilliant, even if you would be generous and get 50 mln per plane for other things training, spare pars and so on it is still far to much for a plane that is underwhelming in performance compared with costs of other planes.

    This package includes life cycle support, spares and arms and setting up of a base training and half of the money 3 b euro will be invested back in india

    theoretically.  There isn't guarantee it will be re-invested back.  We may just forget about it altogether and the media wont say anything nor will government.

    well dear the most unfortunate thing about this deal is cost and secondly its number of aircraft, why 36 only ? what purpose they will serve in 2 sq

    nothing is clear don't know why this jinxed deal is being pursued if Russian options are not to the liking of IAF then why to go for Americans as at one pint of time they will arm twist. Only god knows the truth now


    should have pursued second vendor of mrca the euro fighter but no time n money all is being lost

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat May 14, 2016 5:20 am

    GarryB wrote:At the time I thought it would make more sense to have a mixed MRCA fleet, with say 40 odd Rafales plus 80 odd MiG-29M2s for the original 10 billion, but with the price of 8.5 billion for just 36 Rafales... I mean the 12 MiG-29K2s for the Indian Navy cost 700 million... so 2.1 billion for 36 of those... not really sure how the Rafale can be worth so much more...

    I understand India wants diversity so no one country could sanction them and deny them an entire airforce... but lets get real... Russia has no history of doing this to India so why the lack of trust?

    The Uk, France, US... they all do it, but not Russia.

    Personally I think the MiG-29M2 would be an ideal cheap option to replace MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircraft in service... it would not need to be one for one... they could have gotten those 126 aircraft for less than the amount they paid for the MiG-29k2 as they were naval variants modified for carrier use... the M2 models would be cheaper and simpler and the remaining money from their 10 billion budget for the programme they could have invested in Tegas to get that into service faster... I like the Tegas and think if they invested more it could be an excellent little aircraft.

    Lets keep in mind that our contracts don't include long term maintenance packages in the reported costs, they are negotiated separately whereas the Rafale price is everything wrapped in one deal. A Mig-29 package on the same scope of the Rafale deal would cost over 5 billion and then include the maintenance issues and it could match or exceed the price over 20 years. Russian deals are media friendly that way, looks cheap on paper but over time, its going to cost you.

    Make in India is the real issue here. It has brought defence procurement to a grinding halt. MTA gone, FGFA on the brink, K226T at risk, S400 delayed. GoI keeps waiting for DRDO to produce worthy products and they have to delay foreign procurement in the hopes they can make something indigenously. When they pick something foreign they have to deal with all the parties to bring enough production to meet Make in India requirements. 3rd party suppliers don't have to play ball, it isn't their contract so in essence, India is requiring country A to produce most of the product in India. It doesn't make sense for country A to do that. Nobody wants to do that so without success from DRDO, India is left with a crumbling military and deadlocked negotiations. Modi's Make in India campaign is the greatest threat to India's national security in the history of the nation.


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 14, 2016 5:26 am

    Well, they apparently negotiated for the S-400 and FGFA currently, but rest is kinda on hiatus at the moment excluding the MTA being gone for good. You are right, it really is now all about the fact the Make in India looks good on paper but in reality doesn't work out so well due to local producers.

    According to my wife, a lot of stuff Modi is pushing is going to probably cost the BJP the next elections. I don't disagree with the make in India program, but they really need to weed out issues or seek additional partners to modernize their facilities. I know Russia is trying to look for a partner to possibly advance a plant or two in India to make components, but India will have to push hard for it.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat May 14, 2016 7:19 am

    S-400 has been pushed back two years in order to secure financing for the Rafale. FGFA is a no go without a new generation engine and work share that meets Make in India.

    BJP is losing popularity but Modi is still in the public grace. It would not be until 2019 before he could be replaced so we have to work with his government.


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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  medo on Sat May 14, 2016 10:46 am

    Problem for India is, that their own Tejas jet is "Made in India" only on paper. India produce the body of Tejas, all the rest is imported. Engine from US, radar, armament, avionics are from Israel and France, ejection seat and nose cone are from UK, etc. Any sanctions will kill Tejas over night. Su-30MKI is far more safe for India and even there they install a lot of components from Israel.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sat May 14, 2016 4:15 pm

    Make in India is going to prove disastrous for indian armed forces newer acquisitions and modernization both, the off set clause of investing back 30%-50% in india is far more practical and prudent to do. Lets see how the tragedy unfolds now

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  medo on Sat May 14, 2016 6:29 pm

    What is even more tragic, is the fact, that Tejas should replace MiG-21 fighters in the nineties, twenty years ago. Thank God in that time India went with Russian MiG-21-93 modernization package and modernize their MiG-21BIS to MiG-21BISON standard. MiG-21BISON is now around 20 years in service and their life time is coming to an end. MiG-21BISON give India 20 years of additional time to finish Tejas project and place it in combat units. India now need to produce Tejas fighters as soon as possible and any kind of sanction will put India in very bad situation. MiG-21 is no more in production for more than 30 years. If Croatian story with their MiG-21 fighters in Ukraine is any indication, than it confirm, that there is no more new spare parts for MiG-21 jets available. Only used ones from retired planes. India will not be able to go through another upgrade and prolong service life for their MiG-21 fighters. Only new spare parts for MiG-21 available are in China, but there is a good question if F-7 spare parts are compatible with Indian MiG-21BISON.

    Thank God India didn't complicate too much with western equipment for their MiG-29UPG modernization program, which will prolong their service live for another 20 years and give India enough time to get to their mind and buy MiG-35 for their replacement.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 14, 2016 6:38 pm

    medo wrote:What is even more tragic, is the fact, that Tejas should replace MiG-21 fighters in the nineties, twenty years ago. Thank God in that time India went with Russian MiG-21-93 modernization package and modernize their MiG-21BIS to MiG-21BISON standard. MiG-21BISON is now around 20 years in service and their life time is coming to an end. MiG-21BISON give India 20 years of additional time to finish Tejas project and place it in combat units. India now need to produce Tejas fighters as soon as possible and any kind of sanction will put India in very bad situation. MiG-21 is no more in production for more than 30 years. If Croatian story with their MiG-21 fighters in Ukraine is any indication, than it confirm, that there is no more new spare parts for MiG-21 jets available. Only used ones from retired planes. India will not be able to go through another upgrade and prolong service life for their MiG-21 fighters. Only new spare parts for MiG-21 available are in China, but there is a good question if F-7 spare parts are compatible with Indian MiG-21BISON.

    Thank God India didn't complicate too much with western equipment for their MiG-29UPG modernization program, which will prolong their service live for another 20 years and give India enough time to get to their mind and buy MiG-35 for their replacement.

    Majority of parts are identical basically, at least all mechanical parts, rest has been anyways replaced long ago. Thing is that China would never sell spares to India, nor India would ever buy spares from China. However many parts for MiG-21 can be fabricated fairly easy, but you cant anymore deal with borts age.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  medo on Sat May 14, 2016 8:01 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    medo wrote:What is even more tragic, is the fact, that Tejas should replace MiG-21 fighters in the nineties, twenty years ago. Thank God in that time India went with Russian MiG-21-93 modernization package and modernize their MiG-21BIS to MiG-21BISON standard. MiG-21BISON is now around 20 years in service and their life time is coming to an end. MiG-21BISON give India 20 years of additional time to finish Tejas project and place it in combat units. India now need to produce Tejas fighters as soon as possible and any kind of sanction will put India in very bad situation. MiG-21 is no more in production for more than 30 years. If Croatian story with their MiG-21 fighters in Ukraine is any indication, than it confirm, that there is no more new spare parts for MiG-21 jets available. Only used ones from retired planes. India will not be able to go through another upgrade and prolong service life for their MiG-21 fighters. Only new spare parts for MiG-21 available are in China, but there is a good question if F-7 spare parts are compatible with Indian MiG-21BISON.

    Thank God India didn't complicate too much with western equipment for their MiG-29UPG modernization program, which will prolong their service live for another 20 years and give India enough time to get to their mind and buy MiG-35 for their replacement.

    Majority of parts are identical basically, at least all mechanical parts, rest has been anyways replaced long ago. Thing is that China would never sell spares to India, nor India would ever buy spares from China. However many parts for MiG-21 can be fabricated fairly easy, but you cant anymore deal with borts age.

    Ukrainian aviation industry should be able to produce all needed parts for Croatian MiGs, considering they have all needed documentations for them, but they didn't and they take parts from retired Bulgarian MiGs. Most probably after so long time after their retirement they don't have all needed tools anymore. With planes getting that old, they don't need only to replace engines, hydraulics and other components, but also tired parts of plane construction as well. All spare parts from the stock went in last decades went around the World to keep hundreds of MiG-21 jets flying. After retirement MiG doesn't produce spare parts for them and Russia also doesn't repair them anymore.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 14, 2016 10:10 pm

    medo wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    medo wrote:What is even more tragic, is the fact, that Tejas should replace MiG-21 fighters in the nineties, twenty years ago. Thank God in that time India went with Russian MiG-21-93 modernization package and modernize their MiG-21BIS to MiG-21BISON standard. MiG-21BISON is now around 20 years in service and their life time is coming to an end. MiG-21BISON give India 20 years of additional time to finish Tejas project and place it in combat units. India now need to produce Tejas fighters as soon as possible and any kind of sanction will put India in very bad situation. MiG-21 is no more in production for more than 30 years. If Croatian story with their MiG-21 fighters in Ukraine is any indication, than it confirm, that there is no more new spare parts for MiG-21 jets available. Only used ones from retired planes. India will not be able to go through another upgrade and prolong service life for their MiG-21 fighters. Only new spare parts for MiG-21 available are in China, but there is a good question if F-7 spare parts are compatible with Indian MiG-21BISON.

    Thank God India didn't complicate too much with western equipment for their MiG-29UPG modernization program, which will prolong their service live for another 20 years and give India enough time to get to their mind and buy MiG-35 for their replacement.

    Majority of parts are identical basically, at least all mechanical parts, rest has been anyways replaced long ago. Thing is that China would never sell spares to India, nor India would ever buy spares from China. However many parts for MiG-21 can be fabricated fairly easy, but you cant anymore deal with borts age.

    Ukrainian aviation industry should be able to produce all needed parts for Croatian MiGs, considering they have all needed documentations for them, but they didn't and they take parts from retired Bulgarian MiGs. Most probably after so long time after their retirement they don't have all needed tools anymore. With planes getting that old, they don't need only to replace engines, hydraulics and other components, but also tired parts of plane construction as well. All spare parts from the stock went in last decades went around the World to keep hundreds of MiG-21 jets flying. After retirement MiG doesn't produce spare parts for them and Russia also doesn't repair them anymore.

    Ukrainians sold dozens of MiG-21s to Croatia and in few other shady deals in early 90s, that sort of depleted their canibalisation stocks.

    Engines are not being produced either, but rather overhauled, which cant be performed till world ends.

    Ukrainians probably could manufacture many parts, but they probably found its alot easier to put used spares and put new serials on them, rather than actually producing them on manufacture lvl for 3-4 borts.

    medo
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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  medo on Sat May 14, 2016 11:40 pm

    Ukrainian factories probably could and considering Croatia will pay for them it would be expected from Ukraine to produce them. Point is, that when they take used parts from Bulgarian MiGs indicate, that new spare parts for them are not anymore in stocks in any ex-MiG-21 user, be it from any other ex-USSR republic or from east European users or from anyone else.
    Maybe Russia still have them in their stocks, but they are sending them to Syria to keep their planes flying and fighting with terrorists.

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Sat May 21, 2016 12:01 pm

    As negotiations between India and France stretch to the last mile on the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar underscored the cost of a Rafale jet by observing that a Su-30 fighter and an indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas can be purchased at the cost of one Rafale jet.

    “One Rafale fighter is worth approximately Rs.700 crore to Rs.750 crore while a Su-30 costs about Rs.475 crore. Compared to these planes, India’s Tejas is in the range of Rs.200-250 crore only. We can get two Tejas at the price of one Rafale,” Mr. Parrikar said in an interview to All India Radio (AIR) on Friday.

    However it was not clear what composition of the aircraft Mr. Parrikar was referring to at this unit cost. Typically the cost of the aircraft goes up with the addition of components, electronics, armaments and other customisation.

    Though Mr. Parrikar had stated earlier that Rafale jets were expensive and bringing down the price was important, this is the first time he gave a comparative figure while underscoring that the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is as good as the French Rafale fighter jet in terms of capabilities.

    On the current price negotiations for 36 jets under a government-to-government deal, he said it will take a “few more weeks” to finalise it. “You will have to bring down the cost. If you throw away the price they demand, our coffers will soon be empty,” he observed.

    Tejas vs. Rafale
    Drawing a comparison between Tejas and Rafale jets, Mr. Parrikar stated that Tejas had similar capabilities although it was in a different class.

    “Our Tejas is having the same qualities as Rafale does. Although Tejas is in light weight category, its range also half compared to Rafale, in terms of avionics, electronics and fire power it is no less than the Rafale,” he said.

    Talking of measures to improve the squadron strength of the Air Force, he pointed that four to five squadrons of the Tejas will be added in the next three to four years in addition to a few more squadrons of Sukhoi as well as two squadrons of Rafales.

    “The first squadron of Tejas will be ready by September-October and it will be flying before Diwali,” the Minister said.

    On the selection of another fighter aircraft to be built under the ‘Make-in-India’ initiative, Mr. Parrikar said it could be any aircraft and a “decision in this regard will be taken in this financial year.”

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/centre-bargaining-hard-to-lower-rafale-price/article8627008.ece

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    India to select fighter jet under Make in India by March

    Post  Pinto on Sat May 21, 2016 12:10 pm

    New Delhi, May 20 (PTI) The government will zero in by the end of current fiscal a fighter jet it wants to build under Make in India initiative, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said today, as he expressed confidence that the deal for 36 Rafale jets will be wrapped up in "weeks".

    He said India will decide on either Boeings F18A, Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale or Gripen.

    Parrikar said various issues, like cost and necessity among others, will have to be taken into account before selecting a foreign fighter even as he pointed out that Rafales are expensive.

    "I cannot tell you the dates but it is very near. It is near completion. Need a few more weeks to fine tune it," he said in an interview to All India Radio.
    He said the price was still under negotiation. "You will have to bring down the cost. If you give away the price they demand, our coffer will soon become empty," he said.

    Parrikar pointed out that a Rafale would cost anywhere between Rs 600 and Rs 750 crore each and a Sukhoi 30 and Tejas can be bought together at the same price.
    However, it is expected that the 36 Rafales will cost about Euro 7.25 billion without
    armaments. This will work out to be about Rs 1,500 crore per aircraft.
    Strongly backing the quality of Tejas, Parrikar said it has the same qualities as Rafale.

    Tejas is in light weight category and its range is also half compared to Rafale, but in terms of avionics, electronics and fire power it is no less to Rafale, he said.

    The minister said India will select a good fighter by the end of this financial year to be made domestically.

    "It is not yet decided which aircraft it would be. It may be F18, Rafale, Eurofighter or Grippen. The decision in this regard will be taken in this financial year," he said. PTI SAP AMS ZMN AMS


    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/india-to-select-fighter-jet-under-make-in-india-by-march/1/673588.html

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    Re: Rafale wins India's MMRCA

    Post  Pinto on Thu May 26, 2016 5:18 pm

    The IAF’s squadron strength has dwindled to dangerously low levels, many jets are near the end of their operational lives, and the future looks uncertain.


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    With the French Defence Minister having made his government’s best offer, price negotiations with France for 36 Rafale fighters are in their end stages. Earlier this month, the Chief of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, flew in India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas. This was meant to showcase the IAF’s faith in the fighter produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is yet to earn the Final Operational Clearance (FOC). An order for 40 Tejases has been placed by the IAF and the first three fighters are planned to be inducted this year.

    But the signing of the Rafale deal and induction of Tejas fighters will not reverse the poor state of the IAF, which has been public knowledge for a few years now. To counter a “two-front collusive threat”, the IAF wants 45 fighter squadrons but has been sanctioned 42 by the government. In March, the Vice Chief of the IAF lamented that they had only 33 squadrons, which were inadequate to fulfill their designated role.

    The number of fighter squadrons will dwindle further as 3 squadrons of MiG-21M retire in 2018, along with the 2 squadrons of MiG-27 UPG. The 6 squadrons of MiG-21 Bison will be out of service by 2022.

    Of the current fleet, the legacy fighters — 6 squadrons of the Jaguar, 3 of the Mirage-2000 and three of MiG-29 — will last in service till 2030.

    How does the IAF plan to make up for the existing shortfall and the forthcoming reductions?

    First up is the Tejas. An order for 40 aircraft has been placed with HAL, 20 of which are projected to be in service by mid-2018. By mid-2020, the full complement will be in service and, by then, a HAL official said, possibly more in hope than out of conviction, “the FOC will have come”.

    With Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar throwing his weight behind the Tejas, Ministry sources have confirmed that an order for 80 Tejas-Mk1A — an improved version of the aircraft — will be placed with HAL. The prototype of Tejas-Mk1A will be ready by 2018, and HAL hopes to have the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) by 2020. It can then be put into production on the Tejas assembly line, which would be free.

    The workhorse of the IAF will, however, continue to be the Russian Sukhoi MKI. The HAL plant at Nashik produces 12 Sukhois every year, and the IAF expects to have its full complement of 272 Sukhois by 2020. As Parrikar informed Parliament, the serviceability state of Sukhois in service is a worrying 53%.

    Assuming the Rafale deal is signed shortly, the 36 fighters will be with the IAF only by 2023. Having only 36 fighters of one type makes little sense logistically or operationally. There was talk of a follow-up deal for more Rafales which could be assembled in India, but this is by no means a certainty.

    If — and this is a big if — all goes to plan, the IAF will be able to maintain its current squadron levels. To make up for the shortfall, Parrikar has indicated another imported fighter will be needed. Three are believed to be in contention: US F-16 and F-18, and the Swedish Gripen. Lockheed Martin has proposed shifting the F-16 assembly line to India but it is a previous generation fighter. The F-18 proposal doesn’t include an assembly line in India, and the IAF is not too enamoured of it. Sweden has made the right noises about transfer of technology and production of Gripen under ‘Make in India’; a formal proposal is expected next month.

    Meanwhile, the Russians have been pushing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), which was supposed to be jointly developed by Russia and India. India’s lack of interest was apparent from its failure to pay as per schedule. Russia has already developed the fighter with stealth capabilities, and wants India to pay $ 3.7 billion so that HAL can start producing them in India after its Sukhoi assembly line at Nashik is free.

    The FGFA, however, is needed to replace the legacy fighters which will be in service till 2030. By then, should the Defence Ministry commit strongly to the project, the Aeronautical Development Agency’s (ADA’s) Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) could be poised to enter service

    . The project needs funding commitment from the government next year, and it hopes to fly the first aircraft in eight years. Another four years will be needed for the IOC.

    But all this is still in the planning stage. The reality is that the Rafale deal is yet to be signed while the Tejas-Mk1A is still on paper. The rest, from AMCA to FGFA to another foreign fighter, are also in the realm of the future. The IAF, meanwhile, remains at dangerously low squadron strength, with no clarity about its future

    - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/explained/indian-air-force-light-combat-aircraft-rafale-deal-2819289/#sthash.NsvxWJTI.dpuf

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