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    Rafale wins India's MMRCA

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    Post  medo on Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:35 pm

    8,8 billion $ for 36 Rafales? This is more than 240 million $ per plane. I wonder, what extra capabilities Rafale will provide, that it is worth of so much money? India really have to much money to throw it away.
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    Post  Pinto on Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:37 am

    medo wrote:8,8 billion $ for 36 Rafales? This is more than 240 million $ per plane. I wonder, what extra capabilities Rafale will provide, that it is worth of so much money? India really have to much money to throw it away.

    IAF penchant for french aircraft, they are fond of France fighters since mirage 2k days which has performed exceptionally well

    deal is very costly specially if we see that the requirement is for 200 odd aircrafts in general. many other contenders could have done the job much better at economical price
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    Rafale wins India's MMRCA - Page 7 Empty Rafale deal: French team likely to visit India next month

    Post  Pinto on Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:18 pm

    The development comes nearly four months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande signed a memorandum of agreement to purchase 36 Rafale combat jets.The deal comes with the clause of 50 per cent offsets, which will be a bonanza for the domestic industry as it will lead to business worth at least 3 billion Euros and creating new jobs in India


    A high-level team from France is expected to arrive in New Delhi next month to firm up the order for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft by India as both countries have managed to narrow down their differences over pricing.

    The development comes nearly four months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande signed a memorandum of agreement to purchase 36 Rafale combat jets.

    The Indian side has been negotiating hard to bring down the price with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar refusing to buckle under pressure even as questions were being raised about the delay in signing the contract.
    Read | Negotiations over purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets enter ‘final stage’

    The deal comes with the clause of 50 per cent offsets, which will be a bonanza for the domestic industry as it will lead to business worth at least 3 billion Euros and creating new jobs in India.

    The tough part of the negotiations that began in July 2015 was to get the French side to agree to 50 per cent offsets in the deal.

    Initially, Dassault Aviation, makers of Rafale, was willing to agree to reinvest only 30 per cent of the value of its contract in Indian entities to meet the offset obligations.

    The French side finally agreed to invest 50 per cent of the value following a phone conversation between Modi and Hollande late last year.

    The commercial negotiations, as in the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues, actually began only in mid-January this year.

    “It is correct to say that differences over pricing as more or less being settled. A final deal should take place next month if all matters go as scheduled,” a defence source said.

    Government sources said the deal has not been concluded yet but it is in “final stages”.

    The sources said the price for 36 Rafales, as per the UPA tender, keeping the cost escalation and dollar rate in mind, comes to a little over Rs 65,000 crore.

    This includes the cost involved in making changes India as sought in the aircraft, including Israeli helmet mounted display and some specific weaponry, among others.

    “The effort is to bring down the price to less than Euros 8 billion (Rs 59,000 crore),” the sources said.

    The expectation is that the final deal will be clinched by May-end.

    Under the proposed deal, French companies apart from Dassault Aviation, will provide several aeronautics, electronics and micro-electronics technologies to comply with the offset obligation.

    Companies like Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.

    - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/rafale-deal-french-team-likely-to-visit-india-next-month/#sthash.t1POvlR6.dpuf
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    Post  medo on Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:51 pm

    India will really never stop amazing me. Not only, that India will pay more for Rafale, than what is the price for F-22 or F-35, They will also spoil it with insisting on Israeli components in Rafale. It is not only unnecessary costs, but you will also lost few years to integrate new Israeli components in French jet and to integrate its weapons to get at least similar capabilities which it originally have. Why to replace working French equipment, when it is not needed. I think it will be well over 2020, when India will receive their first Rafales and in that time MKIs will serve in IAF for two decades. Didn't India have enough troubles with mixing so many foreign components and bringing them to working condition?
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    Post  max steel on Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:04 pm

    medo wrote:India will really never stop amazing me. Not only, that India will pay more for Rafale, than what is the price for F-22 or F-35, They will also spoil it with insisting on Israeli components in Rafale. It is not only unnecessary costs, but you will also lost few years to integrate new Israeli components in French jet and to integrate its weapons to get at least similar capabilities which it originally have. Why to replace working French equipment, when it is not needed. I think it will be well over 2020, when India will receive their first Rafales and in that time MKIs will serve in IAF for two decades. Didn't India have enough troubles with mixing so many foreign components and bringing them to working condition?

    Modi govt loves wasting my (taxpayer's) money.
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    Post  Werewolf on Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:14 pm

    I said it before and i will say it again they will fall on their arses very hard and that will be another lecture to india but unless they do not purge the western traitors amongst them it will continue that path.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:46 pm

    max steel wrote:
    medo wrote:India will really never stop amazing me. Not only, that India will pay more for Rafale, than what is the price for F-22 or F-35, They will also spoil it with insisting on Israeli components in Rafale. It is not only unnecessary costs, but you will also lost few years to integrate new Israeli components in French jet and to integrate its weapons to get at least similar capabilities which it originally have. Why to replace working French equipment, when it is not needed. I think it will be well over 2020, when India will receive their first Rafales and in that time MKIs will serve in IAF for two decades. Didn't India have enough troubles with mixing so many foreign components and bringing them to working condition?

    Modi govt loves wasting my (taxpayer's) money.

    Well if the war in Yemen proves anything is that you can't politicize military rearmament planning strategy or otherwise you'll end up being embarrassed by opponents with shoe-string budgets and training in comparison. Seems like India is copying-and-pasting Saudi Arabia's arms procurement strategy.
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    Post  Guest on Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:34 pm

    Rafale wins India's MMRCA - Page 7 CgfaKMuWQAEnUQX

    For this much money they could have built two aircraft carriers and buy full MiG29K airwing for one lol

    Wasnt the damn thing supposed to be 12,5 billion for 126 aircraft? Lol...
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    Post  Grazneyar on Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:14 pm

    Well they seem have Orwellian double speak down to a fine art. $3.2 bil saved ? More like 8.8 wasted ! Just buy more Sukhoi's ? I can understand their reluctance to deal with MiG following procurement and parts availability problems. The Algerian Fulcrums that had to be swaped for Flankers was a fiasco. Even so, I doubt the Rafale could possibly be THAT much better than an F 16 or indeed MiG 35's even with problems. Value for money is never a strong point amoung politicians. Tax payers money is just too easy to spend. I am not trying to say the Rafale is a poor aircraft, just it is so expensive compared to its peers.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:31 pm

    Militarov wrote:Rafale wins India's MMRCA - Page 7 CgfaKMuWQAEnUQX

    For this much money they could have built two aircraft carriers and buy full MiG29K airwing for one lol

    Wasnt the damn thing supposed to be 12,5 billion for 126 aircraft? Lol...

    Ooh god, the horror, by comparison, Egypt payed 2 Billion for 50 Mig-35s with extra targeting pods for each, with that kind of money ($12B) India could have bought more then 300 Mig-35s plus extra pods for each, or almost 200 SU-35s, what in holy hell are they smoking there in India, this alone calls into question there very sanity. Suspect


    Last edited by AlfaT8 on Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:07 pm

    Grazneyar wrote:Well they seem have Orwellian double speak down to a fine art. $3.2 bil saved ? More like 8.8 wasted ! Just buy more Sukhoi's ? I can understand their reluctance to deal with MiG following procurement and parts availability problems. The Algerian Fulcrums that had to be swaped for Flankers was a fiasco. Even so, I doubt the Rafale could possibly be THAT much better than an F 16 or indeed MiG 35's even with problems. Value for money is never a strong point amoung politicians. Tax payers money is just too easy to spend. I am not trying to say the Rafale is a poor aircraft, just it is so expensive compared to its peers.

    That's nothing, India was originally suppose to pay more then $22 Billion, for the original 126 Rafales plus assembly facilities, more then double the 2009 estimates ($10B), with that kind of money India could have bought more PAK-FGFAs and/or accelerated there production and introduction, also $22B was a bit more then half of India's entire defense budget, they say that the reason for the price increase was because India wanted ToT to produce them, but now there waisting $12B for a mere 36 jets, which means that the ToT excuse for the price increase was absolute BS.

    The parts issue seem somewhat exaggerated IMO and Algeria just wanted the flankers more.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:18 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Grazneyar wrote:Well they seem have Orwellian double speak down to a fine art. $3.2 bil saved ? More like 8.8 wasted ! Just buy more Sukhoi's ? I can understand their reluctance to deal with MiG following procurement and parts availability problems. The Algerian Fulcrums that had to be swaped for Flankers was a fiasco. Even so, I doubt the Rafale could possibly be THAT much better than an F 16 or indeed MiG 35's even with problems. Value for money is never a strong point amoung politicians. Tax payers money is just too easy to spend. I am not trying to say the Rafale is a poor aircraft, just it is so expensive compared to its peers.

    That's nothing, India was originally suppose to pay more then $22 Billion, for the original 126 Rafales plus assembly facilities, more then double the 2009 estimates ($10B), with that kind of money India could have bought more PAK-FGFAs and/or accelerated there production and introduction, also $22B was a bit more then half of India's entire defense budget, they say that the reason for the price increase was because India wanted ToT to produce them, but now there waisting $12B for a mere 36 jets, which means that the ToT excuse for the price increase was absolute BS.

    The parts issue seem somewhat exaggerated IMO and Algeria just wanted the flankers more.

    GarryB already explained it. Sukhoi was offering better deal so the Algerians seized on the opportunity.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:09 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Rafale wins India's MMRCA - Page 7 CgfaKMuWQAEnUQX

    For this much money they could have built two aircraft carriers and buy full MiG29K airwing for one lol

    Wasnt the damn thing supposed to be 12,5 billion for 126 aircraft? Lol...

    Ooh god, the horror, by comparison, Egypt payed 2 Billion for 50 Mig-35s with extra targeting pods for each, with that kind of money ($12B) India could have bought more then 300 Mig-35s plus extra pods for each, or almost 200 SU-35s, what in holy hell are they smoking there in India, this alone calls into question there very sanity. Suspect

    Holy crap, i was so filled with anger that i didn't read the fine print, my bad. pwnd

    That said it's still ridiculously overpriced.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:11 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Grazneyar wrote:Well they seem have Orwellian double speak down to a fine art. $3.2 bil saved ? More like 8.8 wasted ! Just buy more Sukhoi's ? I can understand their reluctance to deal with MiG following procurement and parts availability problems. The Algerian Fulcrums that had to be swaped for Flankers was a fiasco. Even so, I doubt the Rafale could possibly be THAT much better than an F 16 or indeed MiG 35's even with problems. Value for money is never a strong point amoung politicians. Tax payers money is just too easy to spend. I am not trying to say the Rafale is a poor aircraft, just it is so expensive compared to its peers.

    That's nothing, India was originally suppose to pay more then $22 Billion, for the original 126 Rafales plus assembly facilities, more then double the 2009 estimates ($10B), with that kind of money India could have bought more PAK-FGFAs and/or accelerated there production and introduction, also $22B was a bit more then half of India's entire defense budget, they say that the reason for the price increase was because India wanted ToT to produce them, but now there waisting $12B for a mere 36 jets, which means that the ToT excuse for the price increase was absolute BS.

    The parts issue seem somewhat exaggerated IMO and Algeria just wanted the flankers more.

    GarryB already explained it. Sukhoi was offering better deal so the Algerians seized on the opportunity.

    Is that so, then fine.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:02 pm

    There was nothing wrong with the MiGs... but when Sukhoi offers Su-30s for the same price why would you go for the smaller plane?
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    Post  Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:There was nothing wrong with the MiGs... but when Sukhoi offers Su-30s for the same price why would you go for the smaller plane?

    Well they originally wanted something between Tejas and Su-30 in terms of size and weight. Something with capabilities near Su-30MKI or even better but in smaller package and expected lower operating costs and true multirole capabilities. However French went full retard with their price and refusal of technology transfer. In the end i think they would have ended alot better if they opted for EF2000... They would get two squadrons by now.
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    Post  Grazneyar on Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:There was nothing wrong with the MiGs... but when Sukhoi offers Su-30s for the same price why would you go for the smaller plane?
    I thought there was an issue with the airframes being old and not new build. Were the MiG's delivered, and then returned or was this politics to get a better deal ?
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    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:35 am

    Sukhoi is bigger, can carry more, can fly longer, can have bigger avionics and radar.

    Mikoyan is cheaper and easier to mass produce at frigtening number.

    Probably that's why Sukhoi catch a better interest in exporting market recently, especially for Vietnam when we have a big sea to defend.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:42 am

    Militarov wrote:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CgfaKMuWQAEnUQX.jpg:large

    For this much money they could have built two aircraft carriers and buy full MiG29K airwing for one lol

    Wasnt the damn thing supposed to be 12,5 billion for 126 aircraft? Lol...

    First reduce from 126 pieces to 36 pieces, and now decrease 1/4 the price to get the OK from India.

    A severe humiliation for Rafale. Laughing Laughing
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:21 am

    Well they had to say something... they couldn't admit they just wanted to save money.

    From what I remember the supposed argument was over the definition of new, with the Algerians claiming that airframes that were produced some time ago that sat in stock for a while was not new... they wanted freshly produced airframes... of course that is like going into a shop and saying the pillows you just bought were not new... they have been sitting in stock for 6 months so you want your money back. If no one has used them, then they are new... no matter when they were made.

    And anyway the MiG-29SMT is an UPGRADE... intended to be applied to existing in service types or already made airframes... most of the systems and bits and bobs might not be 100% compatible with the new MiG-29M2 airframe that the MiG-29K, MiG-29M2 and Mig-35 are based upon.

    I think the decision was actually rather short sighted because while the Su-30 is a capable aircraft the SMT is 40% cheaper than a standard MiG-29 to operate and use and the Su-30 is likely more expensive to operate and use... saved a few million on the purchase price and have to spend a few tens of millions extra to keep it and use it.

    I personally like the MiG-29SMT and MiG-29M2 so I am biased as well... not that I don't like the Flanker family too... I just see each as different tools with different roles... the larger aircraft you might get 20 aircraft to buy and operate for the price of 50 MiGs, but even though the individual Flankers are better with larger capacity for weapons in weight and numbers and also in range, 50 aircraft will cover more air space at one time... a Flanker might cover double the range but can't occupy that airspace as effectively as two MiGs... having similar speed performance.

    Of course with the larger fuel capacity the Flanker could convert that into higher speed but at the cost of reducing the range advantage. This flexibility advantage can be nullified with inflight refuelling.
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    Post  medo on Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:49 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:First reduce from 126 pieces to 36 pieces, and now decrease 1/4 the price to get the OK from India.

    A severe humiliation for Rafale. Laughing Laughing

    Considering, that 20 billion $ for 126 Rafales were too expensive, but 8,8 billion $ for 36 Rafales is good price. lol!


    GarryB wrote:I think the decision was actually rather short sighted because while the Su-30 is a capable aircraft the SMT is 40% cheaper than a standard MiG-29 to operate and use and the Su-30 is likely more expensive to operate and use... saved a few million on the purchase price and have to spend a few tens of millions extra to keep it and use it.

    For Algeria Su-30MKA have more sense than MiG-29SMT. Not only because Su-30MKA is equipped with Bars-M PESA radar and TVC engines, but also it have longer range comparing to MiG-29SMT. Algeria is quite big country and it is mostly populated in the north at Mediterranean coast. But from there they have 1000 km to the south to border with Mali and Niger and considering the troubles with Al Qaeda and ISIL down there, Algeria need such long range jets to support troops there. MiG-29SMT could reach those places with three external fuel tanks, but than it could carry very limited armament, while Su-30MKA could reach with internal fuel and could carry far more armament. When refueling from their Il-78 Su-30MKA could patrol there for far longer time and support ground troops when needed comparing to MiG-29SMT. I'm not that much surprised, that Algeria want to buy 12 Su-34 fighter bombers.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:00 am

    If that were actually true why did they order MiG-29SMTs in the first place?

    Why did it take until they were delivered for them to realise they needed Sukhois?

    the fact is that the MiG-29SMTs are fine and would have been perfectly adequate for the job as long as you don't try to base all your aircraft at one air base and expect it to defend your whole country.

    Having several air bases around the country means aircraft can be forward deployed and be ready for action much quicker and when based locally carry heavy payloads and still get on station fast.

    With modern weapons you don't need 10 hardpoints of weapons... if they wanted a long range bomb truck the Backfire would have been a much better choice.

    AESA or PESA are not needed and against ground targets TVC is not much use either... in fact a decent targeting pod like damocles or an improved Sapsan would be vastly more use.
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    Post  Pinto on Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:09 am

    India and France are still negotiating the latter’s offer in terms of New Delhi’s offset clause regarding the multi-billion dollar deal to purchase 36 French Rafale aircraft.

    India and France are still negotiating the latter’s offer in terms of New Delhi’s offset clause regarding the multi-billion dollar deal to purchase 36 French Rafale aircraft.
    Talking to FE on condition of anonymity, highly placed sources said: “The French company Dassault Aviation has offered 17-18 technologies as part of its offsets obligation in various sectors, including civil aviation, homeland security and partially services for the deal which is being negotiated under DPP-2013.”
    However, this could create further delay in the process as the ministry of defence (MoD) has so far failed to form a team to evaluate the respective proposals made by vendors for the transfer of technology. The methodology for evaluating and comparing the value of the respective proposals for transfer of technology also remains unformulated and unclear, sources revealed.
    This process is expected to be time-consuming as there are no parameters that can be referred to while putting a cost to the technologies being offered. Earlier, the French side had rejected India’s demand for a 50% offset clause, citing sharp cost escalation, but offered to participate in ‘Make in India’ projects to carry forward the talks. There is also a strong lobby of small and medium French enterprises that is against industrial offsets and sees it as a threat to the competitiveness of the French defence industry.
    Due to India’s insistence on the offset clause, tweaking of weaponry technology and plans to set up two bases for Rafale fighter planes would lead to cost escalation, which New Delhi is pushing to bring down to around 7-8 billion euro. “While the government is keen to bring down the costs of the aircraft to as low as euro 7-8 billion, there is no way France will give a fully loaded aircraft at that price. India might be forced to then pay just for the platform and for add-ons pay extra money,” a senior official explained.
    Offset policy was first introduced as part of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), 2005, under which a foreign company has to invest back a portion of the deal into India.

    http://www.financialexpress.com/article/economy/rafale-deal-runs-into-hurdle-again/243581/
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    Post  Pinto on Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:57 am

    This Rafale deal is jinxed and is highly over priced, IAF needs to be kicked in there ass and make do woth some 60 Nos su35 or better to go for upgrade for su30mki to super sukhois. French are not good businessmen they need to see how Russia benefited after MIG 21 deal in 1960's but french seems to be shortsighted and will loose submarines project too if this deal falls
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    Post  medo on Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:10 am

    GarryB wrote:If that were actually true why did they order MiG-29SMTs in the first place?

    Why did it take until they were delivered for them to realise they needed Sukhois?

    Changing of priorities and similar price maybe? Most probably Algeria come to their mind, that they could be on the list of NATO to be attacked, so they rather chose bigger and more powerful multirole fighter, that NATO would not be that quick in their attacks, specially when Su-30MKA could strike back on NATO bases in Europe, while MiG-29SMT could have some problems to reach them.


    Pinto wrote:This Rafale deal is jinxed and is highly over priced, IAF needs to be kicked in there ass and make do woth some 60 Nos su35 or better to go for upgrade for su30mki to super sukhois. French are not good businessmen they need to see how Russia benefited after MIG 21 deal in 1960's but french seems to be shortsighted and will loose submarines project too if this deal falls

    I'm really surprised, that India is so much complicating about their fighters, when they need them as well as spoil them to the max and have problems later. Indian NAVY bought MiG-29K/KUB fighters for their carrier and until now they didn't have complains on MiG-29K jets as they are fully Russian without Indian or Israeli components inside. Why they need to buy a small butch of another type to complicate logistics, specially when they also insist on Israeli components inside Rafales, what will turn Rafale in another nightmare. If they need a smaller butch of fighters for quick replace of retiring MiGs, they could bought MiG-29M, which is the same as MiG-29K at the same time as MiG-29K. India already have MiG-29 jets and MiG-29M and MiG-29K will use the same logistic chain and they are not much worse than Rafale. Egypt buy 50 MiG-29M fighters for 2 billion $. With MiG-29M India could later easier accept more capable MiG-35. You could count, how many MiG-29M could India buy for 8,8 billion $ as they will pay for 36 Rafales. It's more than 200 MiGs and you could bet 200 MiGs could do far more than 36 Rafales.

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